Ever seen/used these before?

[syndicated]

Hey guys, I was at my supplier today and they had a flyer out for this soft-start system made by Hyper engineering.
http://hypereng.com

Seems like a decent idea, with better performance than a 5-2-1 or the like...

Opinions?

[hvacvegas]

Sounds like a hard start kit. Except they call it a "soft start" to be more customer friendly.

[SBKold]

Totally different actually.

I am wanting to try one out.

Supposedly compressor is going to kinda "ramp up"

[mark beiser]

They are the manufacturer of the Emerson Secure Start.
I'm surprised Emerson didn't lock it up as an exclusive deal.
http://www.emersonclimate.com/en-us/products/electronics_compressors/Pages/securestart.aspx

It is most definitely NOT a "hard start" device.
It will dramatically reduce or eliminate light dimming when a scroll compressor starts, as well as provide additional compressor protection.
It would be great for people that want to be able to run their AC off a generator during power outages.

I want to try one to stop light dimming in my house when my compressor starts, a 5-2-1 start kit helped, but didn't quite do it.
They are kind of pricy though. :(

A conventional start kit doesn't reduce the peak starting current of the compressor, it just reduces the duration of it.
The Sure-Start/SecureStart actually reduces the peak starting current.

[hobie52]

Same Basic unit that Water Furnace calls Intella Start .Works great for stopping Light dimming on Compressor startup on scroll compressors. I have installed a couple of dozen of them aon Water Furnace geo units and some other brands and they work great.

[syndicated]

So what kind of situation would I recommend this in?
Basically any time a hard start is called for?
I'm also curious if this would reduce power consumption?
At school (I'm a second year) we were told that running a PSC motor continuously is actually cheaper than allowing it to cycle on and off with heating/cooling demand due to LRA and how power is measured. I wasn't really given a clear explanation why this is, but it has been verified aparently.
If this device reduces LRA on a motor, then it should follow that the motor costs less to run.
Thoughts?

[mark beiser]

So what kind of situation would I recommend this in?
Basically any time a hard start is called for?

In situations where lower peak starting amps are needed, like for lights dimming, operation from a generator, etc..


I'm also curious if this would reduce power consumption?

Maybe in a lab setting you could measure a tiny reduction in overall power consumption, but in a real world application the reduction would be insignificant at best.


At school (I'm a second year) we were told that running a PSC motor continuously is actually cheaper than allowing it to cycle on and off with heating/cooling demand due to LRA and how power is measured. I wasn't really given a clear explanation why this is, but it has been verified aparently.
If this device reduces LRA on a motor, then it should follow that the motor costs less to run.
Thoughts?

Ridiculous, and kinda sad, that something so clearly wrong is being taught in a school.
The period of time a PSC motor draws LRA is measured in milliseconds. Even if the motor draws LRA for hundreds of milliseconds, the watts consumed starting the motor are the equivalent of only a few seconds of normal motor operation.

[J-thetechwizard]

I like the idea for nothing more than a quite start-up and flat line operations.
It's like the cars we drove when we were younger...and crazier! Those poor transmissions didn't stand a chance.now that we're older and wiser , we drive arouind town like "Grandpa Fred"!!
Our cars last us a lot longer now.

[Elfshadow]

At the factory I work at we use soft starts like this on blowers with 15-20hp motors to reduce the initial torque on the blower shaft to prevent any chance of damage to the blower and shaft. Have not used this brand before but soft starts are nice devices. Of course VFD's are nicer but a tad more expensive.

[socotech]

I want one for my house. How much do they cost?

[nsula_country]

I want one for my house. How much do they cost?

I sent them an email for pricing. Their distributors are not in my local region. They are probably going to shoot me to one of their distributors and tell me they do not sell direct. Worth a try!

CT

[nsula_country]

I sent them an email for pricing. Their distributors are not in my local region. They are probably going to shoot me to one of their distributors and tell me they do not sell direct. Worth a try!

CT

I got through to them. Pricing is VERRRY attractive. It is a true soft-start controller that is adaptive and learns the start-up current curve of the compressor. I will be buying two! Pricing is the same for all 3 units. You can buy direct. Send message in the link provided. These are also sold under re-labeled names by several OEM's and Emerson. Therefore I don't feel right listing the price.

http://hypereng.com/contact.html

CT

[demorrison]

I have put two of these on package heat pumps. It cut the start up amps of a 3 ton scroll compressor that had a 5-2-1 hard start from 55 amps down to 33 amps. The unit is rated at 77 LRA's. There is a slight time delay 1 second on the outdoor fan and the compressor.

Dr. Z has a really good video on utube. Emerson had a 2 for one sale but Hyper engineering has a better price if you only need one. Also the hyper engineering has excellent directions on installing and have the additional wires that you will need. With the Emerson units you don't get any of the wires, and directions are minimal. You need to be a little careful tightening up the lugs on the green terminal. Just support it with a finger behind the lugs so you don't bend or break it. It does not have over current protection but it will not allow the unit to start if the voltage drops too low. Also keeps the compressor from turning backwards.

Sure seemed to quite down the starting of the heat pump in cooling mode. Seems to be much smoother start. I can't see it saving any money on electricity, but perhaps it may extend the longivity of unit, but that is debatable.

If someone has a unit that sits right outside their bedroom window, nobody has that right, then it may be worth the money if you have tried Crank Case Heater, Compressor blanket, isolation bolts and all the other typical strategies to quiet it down.

[mark beiser]

I want one for my house. How much do they cost?

$300 for the Emerson branded one, but I've heard that they will be less than half of that for the Hyper Engineering branded ones that are/will be available from distributors.

[nsula_country]

$300 for the Emerson branded one, but I've heard that they will be less than half of that for the Hyper Engineering branded ones that are/will be available from distributors.

+1

You are correct on the Hyper engineering price... Give $15. :) Like I said, I'll buy 2 of them tomorrow for my personal Rheem Heat Pumps. Copeland's are good, we build them. But any motor/pump/compressor can benefit from a soft start.

CT

[ICanHas]

So what kind of situation would I recommend this in?
Basically any time a hard start is called for?
I'm also curious if this would reduce power consumption?
At school (I'm a second year) we were told that running a PSC motor continuously is actually cheaper than allowing it to cycle on and off with heating/cooling demand due to LRA and how power is measured. I wasn't really given a clear explanation why this is, but it has been verified aparently.

It isn't just the motor. A/C system don't have the same EER from the instant it switched on.
http://air-conditioning-hvac.knoji.com/troubleshooting-short-cycling-air-conditioning-compressors/

This isn't exactly a credible site, but I couldn't find the original source anymore. Basically the first few minutes of each cycle is operated at reduced efficiency.

"due to how the power is measured" is only relevant in large commercial facilities. Peak demand, kWh used, time of day are all factored in.Frequent starting can increase peak demand which medium voltage customers are often assessed a penalty for. These people use straight three phase motor or VSD, so its not relevant to single phase units.
Smaller single phase units starting sporadically here and there don't affect facility peak demand unless multiple units are consistently at the same time. It's like the impact of passengers moving around in a bus. If everyone moves around but separately, its negligible.. but if everyone throws their weight towards the outer perimeter all at once in a tight curve, it will probably tip over.


If this device reduces LRA on a motor, then it should follow that the motor costs less to run.
Thoughts?
Negative.


In situations where lower peak starting amps are needed, like for lights dimming, operation from a generator, etc..
I believe that devices does reduced voltage starting with SCRs. Starting torque is directly related to starting current, so reducing LRA reduces starting torque. Giving generous time for pressures to equalize will make sure starting torque needed is kept at minimum.

Current starts to fall immediately after the rotor starts turning, so SCRs can be controlled to provide just enough current to get there rather than applying full current every time.


Ridiculous, and kinda sad, that something so clearly wrong is being taught in a school.
The period of time a PSC motor draws LRA is measured in milliseconds. Even if the motor draws LRA for hundreds of milliseconds, the watts consumed starting the motor are the equivalent of only a few seconds of normal motor operation.

Such dips are only an when it causes visually disturbing flicker or worse cause UPS to trip on excessive voltage change over time.

[demorrison]

+1

You are correct on the Hyper engineering price... Give $15. :) Like I said, I'll buy 2 of them tomorrow for my personal Rheem Heat Pumps. Copeland's are good, we build them. But any motor/pump/compressor can benefit from a soft start.

CT

http://education.emersonclimate.com/shop/Scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=328

SPECIAL OFFER: Now until September 30, 2012 buy one SecureStart get one FREE!

I think they pretty much keep extending this offer every month.

[demorrison]

http://www.carlogavazzisales.com/pdfs/RSBSAV2Ceng.pdf

This is another company that makes soft starts for compressors. Don't know what all the specifications mean but it appears to be build pretty well. Has some led's to let you know what is going on inside.

[nsula_country]

http://www.carlogavazzisales.com/pdfs/RSBSAV2Ceng.pdf

This is another company that makes soft starts for compressors. Don't know what all the specifications mean but it appears to be build pretty well. Has some led's to let you know what is going on inside.

By reading the wiring diagram, I'm thinking this is not for the US market. It appears that it wires to L1 (230 VAC) and N (neutral). Last I checked We need L1 and L2 like the Hyper Engineering and Emerson (same unit) wiring diagrams.

Not poking fun, just noticed that the Carlo Gavazz unit is Euro. The alarm contacts are a nice feature.

CT

[mcewans]

So what kind of situation would I recommend this in?
Basically any time a hard start is called for?
I'm also curious if this would reduce power consumption?
At school (I'm a second year) we were told that running a PSC motor continuously is actually cheaper than allowing it to cycle on and off with heating/cooling demand due to LRA and how power is measured. I wasn't really given a clear explanation why this is, but it has been verified aparently.


If this device reduces LRA on a motor, then it should follow that the motor costs less to run.
Thoughts?

Its cheaper from a breakdown point of view that you are not straining the motor as much by cycling it as oppsoed to running it continiously. Electrical usage will about the same in either case.

[demorrison]

By reading the wiring diagram, I'm thinking this is not for the US market. It appears that it wires to L1 (230 VAC) and N (neutral). Last I checked We need L1 and L2 like the Hyper Engineering and Emerson (same unit) wiring diagrams.

Not poking fun, just noticed that the Carlo Gavazz unit is Euro. The alarm contacts are a nice feature.

CT

311671

Here you go.

[nsula_country]

311671

Here you go.

That diagram makes more sense. Were the part numbers the same? On this diagram, L1 is Line and L2 is Line/Neutral. I'm catching what your throwing down!

Thanks for the update.

CT

[demorrison]

That diagram makes more sense. Were the part numbers the same? On this diagram, L1 is Line and L2 is Line/Neutral. I'm catching what your throwing down!

Thanks for the update.

CT




RSBS2332A2V12C24 for the L1 to N wiring diagram
RSBS2332A2V12C24 for the L1 to L2 wiring diagram.

They must have different literature for USA vs Europe. But the part numbers are the same.

They are more expensive, and I was a little wary about buying one simply because the two units I installed them on were under warantee and I figured the hyper engineering or Emerson were made for these units.

I have to admit that this thing looks really well build and there is much more documentation on specifications. If I could only interpret it all.

I have been pleased with the Emerson/Hyper Engineering so far, but if one of them goes out I may try this unit. Hope this helps.

[nsula_country]

RSBS2332A2V12C24 for the L1 to N wiring diagram
RSBS2332A2V12C24 for the L1 to L2 wiring diagram.

They must have different literature for USA vs Europe. But the part numbers are the same.

They are more expensive, and I was a little wary about buying one simply because the two units I installed them on were under warantee and I figured the hyper engineering or Emerson were made for these units.

I have to admit that this thing looks really well build and there is much more documentation on specifications. If I could only interpret it all.

I have been pleased with the Emerson/Hyper Engineering so far, but if one of them goes out I may try this unit. Hope this helps.

Helps a lot. Most likely the unit is either/or. I have seen many industrial power supplies that will take L1/N or L1/L2. Auto-sense voltage.

I will probably go with the Hyper Eng/Emerson unit due to pricing and availability. Also being an Emerson employee, I can support our sales!

Thanks for the update!

CT