tubing bending and brazing !

[drkglass01]

I have been working at a local HVAC company for a little over a month now. I am in the replacement/install dept. I only have about 6 months of schooling and I got this job as a kind of "on the job training" opportunity.

I appreciate the opportunity the company has given me, but I am not getting a whole lot of training per se. So, whatever, I have got to figure this stuff out some way.

My question has to do with bending copper tubing (using a yellow jacket tubing bender). I was given the task of bending a 7/8" suction line on Friday and, well, it didn't go as well as I planned. I ended up getting a kink in the line, and having to have my experienced partner bail me out:limb: Does anyone here have any suggestions, links or wisdom on the fine art of copper tubing bending ? I really am getting tired of having to get bailed out all the time.

Thanks !

Oh, and any brazing tips or links would be nice to !

[Bsmith816]

The big mistake when I see people solder is that they don't get the copper hot enough, especially when soldering 7/8 or 1 1/8. Don't be afraid to heat the copper up, get it red hot then the solder will flow with ease. Justmtakesmsome practice. After a few,times it should come to you with ease. If not you are in the wrong field. I have only used a tubing bender a few times. Just practice with that too the copper usually has to be pretty straight to use the yellow jacket ratchet bender.. Me and the guy I work with just bend it with hands. Take some old copper and practice bending with your hands it's not as hard as you think

[FrostyBeer]

I love my YJ tubing bender!

Just go real slow when your bending it, make sure you have the right "attatchment" on the bender and dont go over 90*.

But honestly just practice with some scrap copper. Measure, mark it up, use a workbench corner or w/e and try and make a bend down it or something.

Practice, practice, practice thats how I learned.

[Vinster]

Like everyone said, with some repetition you will develope the feel. That's why they call it on the job training.

And expect to make F**k Ups, just learn from them

[Dchappa21]

Also helps to bend the copper the same way it came off the roll if possible.

[drkglass01]

Thanks guys ! I appreciate the input. I will try bending some scrap copper in my down time on the job. (as I don't have my own tubing bender, I use the company supplied one.)

Part of my problem (when soldering) is that real world soldering and "school" soldering are two different things. I am finding out soldering on your knees or on your back, pressed against a wall is the norm, rather than the exception.

[hurtinhvac]

Practice is all. I'm still in the very same boat.

And when you start to get it down they will still complain that you are too slow.

Whatever...you are not supposed to be fast when new. As long as you aren't goofing off, that is...

Make sure you have plenty of slack on both ends of the bender (I use the YJ). The only time I kinked one was when I didn't allow enough pipe on one end going into the house and it could not move with the bend enough. I try to measure correctly so as not to waste copper - but I don't sweat it too much and usually end up cutting off a couple of inches.

If you kink one and don't have enough copper left you can always cut off the ends and use a 90 or 45. You can also swedge with a pair of needle nose, slip one size pipe into another and crush the larger one with channel locks if necessary and various others tricks you will pick up to use in a pinch. But only a few years experience will give you the ability to know which way to turn and when - no way around it and I know it's very frustrating.

From what I read, most simple installs are done with a senior installer and a helper/apprentice. I am mostly service and only catch an install maybe once in a week or two. Our installers are spoiled in that they usually work with only likewise higly experienced installers. So they are already a little bit grumpy when they draw me. I can understand...it's harder for them to dictate and control how fast the job will go when I'm there.

The fact that you are working and going to school at the same time is a huge plus. An ideal training situation IMO.

[Pete838]

Part of my problem (when soldering) is that real world soldering and "school" soldering are two different things. I am finding out soldering on your knees or on your back, pressed against a wall is the norm, rather than the exception.


Wait until you get to the upside down, backwards, and sideways with a mirror brazing and send them off to be cut up for med-gas certification

[drkglass01]

One guy I was working with told me, " you won't need a tubing bender for that" and then I proceeded to kink the suction line (damn it). Maybe with a little finesse, I can do it !

[Newtech72]

Like others have stated practice is the best, but it's like going to the driving range and then trying to hit a tee shot with a dozen people watching...a way different experience. My advice is to stay calm, get as comfortable as possible, and go slow until you get the "feel". Temperature makes a big difference and so does the way your body is situated. You're on the right track in asking for advice from guys that have experience. You'll do fine, just give it time, you'll find the method that is best for you!

[drkglass01]

Practice is all. I'm still in the very same boat.

And when you start to get it down they will still complain that you are too slow.

Whatever...you are not supposed to be fast when new. As long as you aren't goofing off, that is...

Make sure you have plenty of slack on both ends of the bender (I use the YJ). The only time I kinked one was when I didn't allow enough pipe on one end going into the house and it could not move with the bend enough. I try to measure correctly so as not to waste copper - but I don't sweat it too much and usually end up cutting off a couple of inches.

If you kink one and don't have enough copper left you can always cut off the ends and use a 90 or 45. You can also swedge with a pair of needle nose, slip one size pipe into another and crush the larger one with channel locks if necessary and various others tricks you will pick up to use in a pinch. But only a few years experience will give you the ability to know which way to turn and when - no way around it and I know it's very frustrating.

From what I read, most simple installs are done with a senior installer and a helper/apprentice. I am mostly service and only catch an install maybe once in a week or two. Our installers are spoiled in that they usually work with only likewise higly experienced installers. So they are already a little bit grumpy when they draw me. I can understand...it's harder for them to dictate and control how fast the job will go when I'm there.

The fact that you are working and going to school at the same time is a huge plus. An ideal training situation IMO.

Wow, you hit the nail on the head !

Some of the senior techs I work with have more patience than others. On my first day, I was trying to help a guy hang a piece of duct (trying to push it into the S drive) and I pushed the duct the wrong way and smacked the guy with it. (Not hard:beat:) and he told me "go stand over there", basically, go stand in the corner. On the upside, I learned what an S drive is, and its function in holding a duct together!

[drkglass01]

Like others have stated practice is the best, but it's like going to the driving range and then trying to hit a tee shot with a dozen people watching...a way different experience. My advice is to stay calm, get as comfortable as possible, and go slow until you get the "feel". Temperature makes a big difference and so does the way your body is situated. You're on the right track in asking for advice from guys that have experience. You'll do fine, just give it time, you'll find the method that is best for you!

Thanks for the advice and encouragement !

[hurtinhvac]

Wait until you get to the upside down, backwards, and sideways with a mirror brazing and send them off to be cut up for med-gas certification

What do they do? Pressure test the joint? Cut it up and see how far and in what quantity the silver flowed into the joint?

I noticed propane everywhere in Florida - do you guys do more brazing with copper for gas lines than hard pipe? Hence the strict certs?

[hurtinhvac]

Wow, you hit the nail on the head !

Some of the senior techs I work with have more patience than others. On my first day, I was trying to help a guy hang a piece of duct (trying to push it into the S drive) and I pushed the duct the wrong way and smacked the guy with it. (Not hard:beat:) and he told me "go stand over there", basically, go stand in the corner. On the upside, I learned what an S drive is, and its function in holding a duct together!

There ya' go :)

[fitzyfitta]

hurtinhvac, med gas is copper piping that is used in hospital and medical buildings. It is always brazed with rod and purged with nitrogen. I tested for the certification. They cut the pipe and fitting open and check to make sure the entire fitting is filled with the brazing alloy. I think it was 2 inch pipe we had to braze for our med gas cert.

[Pete838]

I noticed propane everywhere in Florida - do you guys do more brazing with copper for gas lines than hard pipe? Hence the strict certs?

Gas is usually stainless flex wrapped in yellow plastic (TracPipe), flared copper, or black iron. I've never seen brazed gas pipe. Med gas refers to oxygen piping ( and clean air, vacc, etc. ) in hospitals and med facilities.


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[akelesis]

im a fairly new tech to the refrigeration area and every so often i would pull out my sweg/flare kit and pratice with some scrap copper. now im working on making a little project with some real bends and such and braze them all with flares and swegs. kinda fun i hope my boss isnt reading this (-: wasting his gas and copper might not be good thing for the boss to know
like the other guy said you gotta pratice to get good.

[hurtinhvac]

Gas is usually stainless flex wrapped in yellow plastic (TracPipe), flared copper, or black iron. I've never seen brazed gas pipe. Med gas refers to oxygen piping ( and clean air, vacc, etc. ) in hospitals and med facilities.


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I see. I do come across the odd job where NG has been sweated in with copper. Last one used water grade copper as opposed to refrigeration.

[jnsrose]

Go to the education forum and do a search. There are some pretty good videos on soldering and brazing. Also some videos on yellow jacket website on the bender. Like it has been stated many times, Practice!

[TACKERDOWN]

I didn't read all the posts so I apologize if I am repeating anything . Bending - a little oil on the bender helps ,along with making sure that neither of the free ends and bind on anything to prevent them from moving freely .
brazing - its all about temp control, you can only practice. Over heat it and you will be miserable, as soon as you get it hot enough to melt control the heat so it will flow almost the same as solder just more heat. Inverted,twisted and using a mirror well often be your most trying times along with the object being something that if you overheat you will have to replace it again .
As said before practice is the only way you learn .

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[Joehvac25]

I don't use a bender much, I hand bend, last job I needed a blender and like a true pro I didn't do a practice try and kinked the tube 6 feet in, luckily the line was way to long to begin with. When your new just stay off the phone and listen and they should be easy on you, when you don't know enuff to stay busy the worst thing to do is start texting, when I see that your done with me.

[Joehvac25]

I don't use a bender much, I hand bend, last job I needed a blender and like a true pro I didn't do a practice try and kinked the tube 6 feet in, luckily the line was way to long to begin with. When your new just stay off the phone and listen and they should be easy on you, when you don't know enuff to stay busy the worst thing to do is start texting, when I see that your done with me.

[drkglass01]

Go to the education forum and do a search. There are some pretty good videos on soldering and brazing. Also some videos on yellow jacket website on the bender. Like it has been stated many times, Practice!

Thanks ! , I will try this.

[drkglass01]

I don't use a bender much, I hand bend, last job I needed a blender and like a true pro I didn't do a practice try and kinked the tube 6 feet in, luckily the line was way to long to begin with. When your new just stay off the phone and listen and they should be easy on you, when you don't know enuff to stay busy the worst thing to do is start texting, when I see that your done with me.

I am told to "stay busy", and I am getting better at it (now that I know better about what needs to be done). I am smart enough to know texting while working is a no no. The only thing I use my phone for at work is to map the next location we are going.

[Joehvac25]

I am told to "stay busy", and I am getting better at it (now that I know better about what needs to be done). I am smart enough to know texting while working is a no no. The only thing I use my phone for at work is to map the next location we are going.

That's good some aren't that smart

[hurtinhvac]

That's a major challenge when you are new - knowing how the jobs flow to stay busy. Then the senior installers have to trust you enough to leave you alone. There should be more threads for new people on what various jobs entail...ie simple ac change outs, furnace change outs, complete systems, heat pumps, attic air handlers etc. What usually has to happen first down to cutting power, gas, recovering, tearing out the coil etc and in general what order it all should happen depending on what you are doing. Getting the lines brazed in first so you can have more pump time or while you go to lunch.

I am still a bit peeved to this day that I was left floundering despite repeatedly asking what can I do to help. It's one of the most horsesh!t things you can do to somebody who is truly there to work and learn.

[drkglass01]

That's a major challenge when you are new - knowing how the jobs flow to stay busy.

This is very true. My boss, tells me " I can't afford to have you standing around today". We are installing 3 rooftop ac's by way of a crane. At the time I was waiting for a semi to pass, so I could get a tool for one of the senior techs. The boss tells me something to do, but says "don't do it right now", then runs off to the roof, leaving me standing there...not knowing what to do at that moment ?!

There should be more threads for new people on what various jobs entail...ie simple ac change outs, furnace change outs, complete systems, heat pumps, attic air handlers etc. What usually has to happen first down to cutting power, gas, recovering, tearing out the coil etc and in general what order it all should happen depending on what you are doing. Getting the lines brazed in first so you can have more pump time or while you go to lunch.

I am still a bit peeved to this day that I was left floundering despite repeatedly asking what can I do to help. It's one of the most horsesh!t things you can do to somebody who is truly there to work and learn.

This is also very true. My boss pulls me aside after 3 weeks on the job (knowing this is my first hvac industry job) and says "you've got to start picking up the pace and start learning all the parts and equipment we use". I say, " I think I am learning, but I know I have a lot to learn" I know these guys have to get the job done, homeowners need their a/c and furnaces up and running in a timely fashion. Sometimes, when I slow down a senior tech to show me something, I feel like I am interfering with the job at hand, getting that a/c and furnace up and running.

[Britabroad]

I'm new also to the game i had a truck after about 2 weeks i have to go and install the coil and condesener on my own i have the jourmany come with me at the start of the day he makes sure what i need to do is this correct way to learn?

I have noticed i have got way better but i did burn some wood week ago oops and we use hard pipe which takes ages, but u get better and guess what u can fix leaks if there leaking

[hkempf]

i have seen some videos of the yj on youtube that should help you out, its a pretty simple procedure once you know how to measure and line everything up, but definately find some old scrap and practice

[Pete838]

I have noticed i have got way better but i did burn some wood week ago oops and we use hard pipe which takes ages, but u get better and guess what u can fix leaks if there leaking

Use your heat shields if you're brazing against wood. Hard pipe looks 100x better on exposed work, and it bends with the right tools. I can't think of a better way to increase the professionalism of your copper work than switching to hard drawn copper. And it is generally less expensive.


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[neophytes serendipity]

My question has to do with bending copper tubing (using a yellow jacket tubing bender). I was given the task of bending a 7/8" suction line on Friday and, well, it didn't go as well as I planned. I ended up getting a kink in the line, and having to have my experienced partner bail me out:limb: Does anyone here have any suggestions, links or wisdom on the fine art of copper tubing bending ? I really am getting tired of having to get bailed out all the time.


I have found 7/8 and 1 1/8" soft copper to be more of an oval shape than round, and this leads to problems when you try to bend it. Heck, I have never brazed 1 1/8" fittings without rounding the tubing first with adjustable pliers.

A prior post mentions to try and keep the bend in the same direction as the tube comes off the roll, and this is true. Doesn't matter if you are using a bender (lever, ratchet or spring) or unwinding it from the roll.

Given enough distance, you can spin the roll as it is unwound.

Lubricating the bender shoes helps.

Sometimes, the kinked line isn't avoidable when trying to bend tubing that isn't round in a bender- especially when you are stuck having to bend it opposite the way it came off the roll. I prefer to unroll it, twist it along the tubing axis as needed and deal with the longer radius bends. A soft copper job can look pretty good with a little bit of effort.

Yes, tight fitting 90 degree bends looks better, but it adds lots of joints if you are using fittings, and those extra joints may not be needed.

[Danae12]

meh rookie, as far as your torches, you'll get the hang of it.. I don't monkey with benders I have my fittings, I have worked with guys that dick with benders but I dont have the time. You need to read or ask other tech's what their manifolds are set to. You will look like you really want to learn and understand things by asking what your teacher's oxygen and accetelyn manifold is set too. Without having proper manifold setting you will be burning cutting and making floating nats or flies in client's homes...

Good luck and don't give up..

oh and as a old timer get rid of the bender...

[neophytes serendipity]

oh and as a old timer get rid of the bender...



Why?

[vzenuh]

I worked with a gentlemen for about six months. He was always willing to bust his butt and I had no problem working with him. Even when he made a mistake I wouldn't flip out. I would how him show easy it was to correct that mistake and to learn from it.

A kink isn't the end of the world. Senior techs may make it seem like the world has ended and rib ya for it, but it has happened to them too. Just learn from it and know to to repair it in a timely manner.

As for your torch skills, if your using a B tank just give it heat. Play around with oxyacetylene. I love it and have never looked back. Its alot hotter and if your not careful you can and will burn a hole in copper with it. MAPP works well too for smaller size copper, in my opinion 7/8 is the max and for that you will be putting that torch there for longer than you would have with your b tank or oxyacetylene. You will be surprised what you can do with it.

I sure hope your senior techs are showing you what happens when you braze and dont bubble nitrogen through the lines.

[dachipsta]

Hmm, I used to hate brazing and running copper when I was a nube but now it is my favorite part of the job. Clean and sanded joints for starters. I picked up one of the small rosebud tips for my oxy/act torch which allows you to get the flame right up on what you are brazing without burning a hole in it. When beginning to braze a joint, I always place the flame on the hardest to reach spot first and then draw the solder to it and walk the flame back around towards the easiest spot to reach, bringing the solder around with it till the joint's complete. With sizes of 1/4 up to 3/4, I leave the solder stick in one spot and use the flame to run my solder around. When heated right its just as easy as soft soldering water pipe and stuff. The bigger pipe sizes you just work your way around the fitting.

I dont think I ever owned a pipe bender except for in trade school when I was told to buy one for class....lol. I bend by hand, using my knee, steel toe or what ever is available and when that doesnt work I use fittings. As long as your brazing skills are up to snuff, a few fittings isnt an issue.

I also religiously wrap anything I dont want to get cooked with a wet rag. Nothing like a fried valve to make your day go better. Also when doing your suction line, leave one fitting unsoldered preferably on a strait run and add your armaflex so it doesnt have a dozen zip ties or tape joints to hold it together. Push it back and use your tubing cutter to hold it in place away from the last joint you're brazing then when you are done and you have cooled it down, release the cutter and your flex will look top notch. Wrap a wet rag around the copper where your cutter is holding the armaflex back if needed to keep from cooking the flex to crispy smokey nuggets.