YORK TRIATHLON NATURAL GAS ENGINE DRIVEN CONDENSING UNIT

[ralphferia]

IN THE 1990'S YORK INTRODUCED A NATURAL GAS ENGINE DRIVEN RESIDENTIAL CONDENSING UNIT. CURRENTLY THE PRICE AND LONG TERM AVAILABILITY OF NATURAL GAS LOOKS FAVORABLE. WE ARE INVESTIGATING THE DESIGNS HISTORY. SOMETHING HAPPENED AND THE UNITS WERE ABRUPTLY WITHDRAWN FROM THE MARKET AFTER ONLY A FEW YEARS. IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE THAT KNOWS ABOUT OR EVER WORKED ON THEM?

[beenthere]

Moved to Tech to Tech Residential forum.

[cri3541]

IN THE 1990'S YORK INTRODUCED A NATURAL GAS ENGINE DRIVEN RESIDENTIAL CONDENSING UNIT. CURRENTLY THE PRICE AND LONG TERM AVAILABILITY OF NATURAL GAS LOOKS FAVORABLE. WE ARE INVESTIGATING THE DESIGNS HISTORY. SOMETHING HAPPENED AND THE UNITS WERE ABRUPTLY WITHDRAWN FROM THE MARKET AFTER ONLY A FEW YEARS. IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE THAT KNOWS ABOUT OR EVER WORKED ON THEM?

We had 2 in Memphis, Tn. on Test homes and yes had a briggs and straton engine driving compressor, varilble speed indoor unit. York paid for Factory traing for us to install the test units.

[ralphferia]

We had 2 in Memphis, Tn. on Test homes and yes had a briggs and straton engine driving compressor, varilble speed indoor unit. York paid for Factory traing for us to install the test units.

THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY.
ANY CHANCE YOU STILL HAVE THE TRAINING OR SERVICE MANUALS? IT WOULD ALSO BE VERY HELPFUL IF WE COULD LOCATE A DECOMISSIONED UNIT FOR EVALUATION. DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE THAT WAS SELLING THEM THAT MIGHT HAVE ONE IN THEIR GRAVE YARD?

[jtrammel]

York bought all of these back that they sold. They were mainly only In test houses. With the advanced technology today it maybe worth looking in to but the triathlon was a mistake

[beenthere]

Turn off your cap lock. Its considered yelling, and impolite to type using all caps.

[ralphferia]

Will do.

[ralphferia]

I dont think it was a mistake, but i do think it was before its time. The engine is very interesting. It was designed by GTI/GRI to operate with minimal service for 40,000 hours. The engine is still in production today, and has recently obtained CARB certification. With 90% heat recovery from the water jacket and exhaust, and a open drive scroll/heatpump coupled to it, efficiencies in the 80%+ range could be achieved. this would far outpace anything connected to a 30% efficient electrical grid.
I am looking for one of these units and technical literature. I found that there had been one for sale online last year so there must still be some around.

[DeltaT]

This type of A/C was also introduced back in the 70's so some search back then might come up with that generation of machines.

[ICanHas]

I made a thread about it a while ago. Search for threads I started. Currently, they're in commercial production by a few Japanese HVAC manufacturers like Yanmar, but not available for US market. If you need one for R&D, import one.

IIRC, engine cycle is on par or slightly less efficient than absorption cycle(measuring COP based on cooling BTU vs fuel energy content BTU), which has far less maintenance requirements. The engine type has a clear advantage in heat pump in frigid climate, because the heat pump cycle not only takes in the outdoor heat, but the engine waste heat as well.

They do come with their own set of problems though. The engine requires maintenance unlike hermetic compressors and its an open drive like car A/C compressor so refrigerant will leak.

They're only practical when the prices of electricity and natural gas are different enough that natural gas has advantage at the current system efficiency and that both utilities are sufficiently high that you can justify the upfront cost of equipment.


http://www.proheatpump.eu/Downloads/Deliverables/Proheatpump%20D19.pdf

[klrogers]

THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY.
ANY CHANCE YOU STILL HAVE THE TRAINING OR SERVICE MANUALS? IT WOULD ALSO BE VERY HELPFUL IF WE COULD LOCATE A DECOMISSIONED UNIT FOR EVALUATION. DO YOU KNOW OF ANYONE THAT WAS SELLING THEM THAT MIGHT HAVE ONE IN THEIR GRAVE YARD?


I have some training and service manuals, parts breakdown, controller and thermostat information. Contact me via email (address in profile) if you are interested in copies.

Kevin

[syndicated]

Subscribed.

[bja105]

I started in this trade at a York dealer that had a few Triathalons out there, just as they were failing and being withdrawn. They all had been installed at gas company bigwigs' houses, with some program with York and the utility. I was a helper back then, and never saw one myself. I was told that the Briggs and Stratton engine was not lasting enough.

If there was a similar machine available today, I would like one. We have free gas.
Might as well build in a backup generator, too.

[54regcab]

With utilities going to time of use power pricing programs, the gas engine drive may be worth a 2nd look. Prices during peak hours in our area are much more expensive than off peak. By getting the "big boy" off the grid during peak times it has a HUGE advantage in utility costs. In our area NG goes for 40 cents per therm which is the BTU equal to 2 cents per KWH. On peak rates are typically 22 cents per KWH, off peak is 5 cents per KWH. The gas company makes their money on the $27 monthly meter charge, while selling the gas relatively cheap.

The details are what kills you. Homeowners don't want to mess with their A/C unit. It hard enough to get people to change their filter and clean their condenser, much change oil, tension belts, etc. They want to turn it on and just be cool in their house. I can more see the gas engine units being used more in commercial where they have somebody to maintain them and the savings would be greater due to the larger unit size.

[beenthere]

Subscribed.

You can click on Thread Tools, and then click on Subscribe, then you don't have to make a post to subscribe.

[syndicated]

You can click on Thread Tools, and then click on Subscribe, then you don't have to make a post to subscribe.

I did, twice, and this thread didn't get added to my list. Hence the post.

[beenthere]

I did, twice, and this thread didn't get added to my list. Hence the post.


Hmm, always works for me.

Click subscribe to thread, then click add subscription.

[ICanHas]

I seem to recall that there's a line of products in Yanmar that is self-exciting. The basic engine heat pump requires utility power for fans and controls. The Self-exciting type starts up and provides all its electrical need from engine like a car. The co-generation is also available in higher kW so to supplement or provide for emergency power in the building.

It appears to be a feasible idea for restaurants in developing countries and remote areas with frequent outages. The system provides HVAC and power for refrigeration and minimum needed to keep the business running until the power is restored.

[jnsrose]

What a cool unit the Triathalon was.(so I thought) We put in about 14 of them at a school for the special needs. Way ahead of its time. Had some training and then off I went with the install. Had to run natural gas line to condenser along with to 7/8 copper lines for a little glycol loop that was heated buy engine a small backup boiler in condenser then piped to a coil in the air handler. The coolest thing was when the condenser started and it sounded like your tractor was starting. Problem was the service calls. You would get a call a go out. You need a special service tool to connect to the machine to tell you what was wrong.Most of our service calls were engine related and you could see how that could be a problem for an Hvac/r service tech. Was sad to see them go.

[OldSchoolMech]

I Love York and hearing about these machines just make me love them more. Does anyone have a picture of these beats or are they that top secert?

[jnsrose]

Man it has been a least 20 years ago. Just reading this thread brought back a lot of memories. Did bring it up at a York training class once and the guy basically told me that they were an experiment that failed. Basic problem was, like I said above, you have to be able to diagnose engine problems before you can service the unit. I did forget to mention above that in addition to the natural gas line, the heat piping you also had refrigerant piping plus electrical. That's a lot to have to run to a condenser.

[54regcab]

Electrical should have been able to work on a standard 120V line, dedicated circuit of course. Gas line could be a PITA depending on location. We have the gas meter, power meter, and breaker box all within 5' of the condenser, others not so lucky.

Becoming a small engine repairman in addition to HVAC is where the problem lies. However, NG powered small engines have become more reliable with the advances in electronic controls. They are common in backup generators and don't give much trouble. If somebody tries to do another one, it would be smart for them to market to the commercial side. Something the size of a car engine could be used to run the chiller.

[syndicated]

The service life on CNG powered engines is much longer than gas powered engines due to the fuel being pure. I've pulled apart car engines that ran on LPG and CNG, after 200,000km they still look new internally.
To further that lifespan, running at one fixed speed with the proper oil and maintenance one could expect it to be the longest lasting part of the system.

[54regcab]

I dunno about running fixed speed, I would think variable speed would increase overall efficiency instead of cycling on/off.

[syndicated]

I dunno about running fixed speed, I would think variable speed would increase overall efficiency instead of cycling on/off.

Agreed, but therein lies the fundamental difference between internal combustion engines and electric motors. Gas engines need to operate at a minimum rpm to make any useful power, and must fire in fast enough intervals so it doesn't shake itself to pieces think of a lawn mower about to stall.
To get a variable pumping capacity wouldn't an unloader to the job easier?

[mark beiser]

I think it could be interesting again if they were able to use one of the newer magnetic coupling technologies to drive the compressor. It would do away with the inherent problem with using an open drive.

It would still leave the issue of HVAC/R techs having to learn small engine diagnostics and repair.
I'm thinking they could do better with an engine manufacturer other than B&S too...

[54regcab]

Agreed, but therein lies the fundamental difference between internal combustion engines and electric motors. Gas engines need to operate at a minimum rpm to make any useful power, and must fire in fast enough intervals so it doesn't shake itself to pieces think of a lawn mower about to stall.
To get a variable pumping capacity wouldn't an unloader to the job easier?

Idle speed is enough to prevent the motor shaking like crazy. At idle the engine horsepower will be minimal. Electric motors don't operate efficiently at less than about 40%, I think the gas engine has the advantage in part load capacity. Underloaders would be more complicated to implement that just varying the throttle position of an engine. Why produce the power then unload it?

[supertek65]

B&S sucks!
Put in a kohler and they are good units!

But if you get free gas?

Get a gas air conditioner!

[mark beiser]

Idle speed is enough to prevent the motor shaking like crazy. At idle the engine horsepower will be minimal. Electric motors don't operate efficiently at less than about 40%, I think the gas engine has the advantage in part load capacity. Underloaders would be more complicated to implement that just varying the throttle position of an engine. Why produce the power then unload it?

An engine designed to operate at one speed can be optimized for long term reliability, emissions reduction, and fuel consumption, better than one that has to operate at a range of speeds.
If the engine and compressor were magnetically coupled, unloading could be accomplished via allowing the magnetic coupling to slip at part load.
The engine RPM wouldn't change when at part load, but the work being done, thus the fuel consumption, would be lower.
You would want the system to be variable cooling/heating capacity to reduce/eliminate start/stop cycles, which ultimately are what send an engine to its grave.

[ICanHas]

Idle speed is enough to prevent the motor shaking like crazy. At idle the engine horsepower will be minimal. Electric motors don't operate efficiently at less than about 40%, I think the gas engine has the advantage in part load capacity. Underloaders would be more complicated to implement that just varying the throttle position of an engine. Why produce the power then unload it?
What type of motors are you referring to and its inefficient below 40% of what?
You'd want to modulate the system in such a way that it provides the best COP over a long averaging time (BTU-hr fuel heat content to BTU-hr cooling work)



An engine designed to operate at one speed can be optimized for long term reliability, emissions reduction, and fuel consumption, better than one that has to operate at a range of speeds.
Traditionally, AC portable generators had to run at 900, 1800 or 3600 RPM as rotor speed dictated frequency.

The Honda EU series inverter ones don't. The voltage and frequency are regulated by inverter and the actual generator is a high frequency three phase alternator much like the ones we have in our cars. It actually achieves better fuel economy by lowering the engine speed when the load is low.


If the engine and compressor were magnetically coupled, unloading could be accomplished via allowing the magnetic coupling to slip at part load.

No, it would be very inefficient. The slip has to be dissipated as heat. This is why multi-tapped PSCs are incredibly inefficient. You can only vary the speed of AC motors two ways.
1.) Changing the input frequency with a VFD.
2.) Changing the torque by using taps and varying the degree of magnetic slip.

Use a watt-meter and compare the power use of those portable fans. The input power at lower settings are disproportionately high, because much of the shaft power reduction is done through magnetic slippage.

To get good efficiency at multiple speeds on an AC motor without a VFD you'd have to use a mechanical transmission much like a drill press.


The engine RPM wouldn't change when at part load, but the work being done, thus the fuel consumption, would be lower.
You would want the system to be variable cooling/heating capacity to reduce/eliminate start/stop cycles, which ultimately are what send an engine to its grave.
I don't know how Yanmar does it, but the programming of PCM tune is one of the most important part of efficiency.

An unloader type compressor like Emerson digital coupled with a large flywheel would present itself as a variable torque load on the engine. The modulation speed needs to be fast enough for the flywheel weight so it would impress a fluctuating load on the engine.

The throttle and compressor modulation should then be controlled in coordition with the PCM mapping to follow optimal efficiency curve just like how the vehicle PCM coordinates air, transmission, fuel and ignition. Gas engines suffer from more pumping loss at low throttle opening.

[54regcab]

As you stated running a typical A/C motor at below 40% of it's rated output won't reduce input power very much.

[ICanHas]

Air handler fan is a different setup. The output is varied by increasing the slippage at motor. If it used a single speed motor and load was changed by changing the load on the motor by mechanical means the efficiency drop won't be as dramatic. So, variable geometry fan blades or a solenoid shifting transmission box.

Technically feasible but too expensive. Instead, they went with BLDC(ECM) which is the same technology as the fans in your computer and compressor motor in ductless splits. The guts of even the X13 is technically capable of operating like true VFD, but instead they're designed to work with legacy setup so instead they use taps and assign program to each tap.

As for the compressor, there are two ways... the scroll unloader like the one from Emerson Climate control or using BLDC and inverter motor drive to change the rotor speed.