19XL, my next victim

[chiller mekanik]

This should be a good one, best I can tell, my competition reset this bad boy 13 times with faults like: high motor temp, high oil temp, high discharge temp, high bearing temp, BTW high bearing temp was the winner with 5 of those 13 and last but not least, the one that shut it down for good, sensor failure - thrust bearing.
Hmmmmm, I wonder what happened to the thrust bearing sensor. The oil was dark green, almost black. The machine had been off line for about 4 hrs on my arrival, the motor temp was still 226*.
I tried the spare sensor & it showed open as well.
It would appear that somthing went wrong in the motor cooling/oil cooler feed line, maybe the drier is plugged.
Guess I'll transfer the refrigerant tomorrow & get ready to put it on the floor.
Its got to come apart anyway for that sensor to be replaced.

Feedback........

[thegoodhumorman]

so is that oil cooling REALLY all that important....?
;)

whatever you are using to cool that oil has an issue i bet- injector solenoid or condenser loop or whatever ain't working- sounds like on the right track.
good times!

[hw chiller man]

If thats the quality of your competition, I'd be looking for a raise because you should be one busy dude.

[chiller mekanik]

Transfered the 2500 lbs of 134A today, I'll start pulling it apart tomorrow. I'll try to post pictures.

I'm sure there will be pieces/parts in the bottom of this one. The sump heater had been de-energized for about 15 hrs when I came in this morning, the motor end bell was still 105*.

[Randy S.]

...did it get wet?

[chiller mekanik]

Suprisingly enough no, had some rigging issues to overcome today so I didn't get far. Got the suction ell off & found a substance all over the inside, its also on the diffuser & the vane paddles. Its sorta like soot but its a silver color, if I didn't know better I would say its dry neverseez. I'll share more the further I get.

I went through the alarm history again today & there are two alarms I can't find in my book.
1)emergency turn off power compressor on without control authorization
2)compressor contact closure aux on
I may not have the wording completely correct.

This machine has a VFD made by ABB, I do not know if its original or "sanctioned" for that matter.

My original theory was that there was a malfuntion in the motor/oil cooling line.
Now I'm wondering if that drive powered up the compressor either due to malfunction or human intervention.
I've got to research the drive & I'll need to setup a dry run somehow & see if its possible for someone to bring on the compressor from the drive panel & determine if the drive works right or not.
Right now, I don't know if the oil pump would be energized if the drive did manage to get on line somehow.
Maybe thats what that "aux on" meant on the second alarm, that the interface detected compressor operation so it brought on the oil pump. Clearly I need clarification as to the definition of those terms.
As the plot thickens......

[Edited by chiller mekanik on 09-21-2006 at 11:39 PM]

[absrbrtek]

If I didn't know better I would say it's powdered impeller from rubbing. JMHO


Originally posted by chiller mekanik
Got the suction ell off & found a substance all over the inside, its also on the diffuser & the vane paddles. Its sorta like soot but its a silver color, if I didn't know better I would say its dry neverseez. I'll share more the further I get.
[Edited by chiller mekanik on 09-21-2006 at 11:39 PM]

[chiller mekanik]

We'll know tomorrow.

[Randy S.]

I was working with an "electrician" once who just reached in and poked a relay, and a 500 ton YT started with no oil pump.

[chiller mekanik]

The diffuser is chewed up, one third of the impeller is missing, the high speed shaft is bent & the bearing is wiped. Will start at the other end on monday.

P.S.
My daughter promised to help me upload a few pics this wknd.

[freonrick]

$$$$$$$$$$they better get their check book out.

[bobby m]

get a new compressor assembly from carrier

[hvacr]

Where are you going to post the pic which forum. We had the same type of thing the operstors were killing the main power to stop machine just to speed up there job LOL

[karl k]

I did some controls for some Frick and Mycom systems. I would always have to correct the way that the other people were thinking of controlling the equipment. They always wanted their system to control everything to do with the screw package or in your case a chiller. All they need is one point to turn on the chiller. I saw one where the controls guys had jumpered the start input on the chiller and were using the oil pump to start and stop the chiller. They would bring on the oil pump, the chiller would see oil pressure and start. When they dropped out the mag starter for the oil pump, the compressor would see NO oil pressure and COAST TO A STOP!!

I have used ABB VFD's to run chillers and other screw packs. No problems as long as you disable the manual run option. If I remember right, it is a couple terminals that you jumper to do that. It still doesn't protect against people that are just smart enough to be dangerous.

[chiller mekanik]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/firmatconion/19xlimpeller.jpg


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/firmatconion/19xlimpeller2.jpg


$$$Cha Ching$$$

The high speed shaft is also bent. I will get a picture of that one tomorrow...

[toptech]

Originally posted by chiller mekanik
Transfered the 2500 lbs of 134A today, I'll start pulling it apart tomorrow. I'll try to post pictures.

I'm sure there will be pieces/parts in the bottom of this one. The sump heater had been de-energized for about 15 hrs when I came in this morning, the motor end bell was still 105*.
Could you post what you used to pull that volume? Where you got?
Perhaps even a vendor?
Gracias
Top

[chiller mekanik]

For liquid I use a high speed liquid pump mfr by NRP available at your friendly United Refrigeration store.
For vapor on high pressure machines I use a machine mfr by RefTech called the "Mighty Vac".
In either of those situations I will use 1/2" hoses believe it or not. A sight glass or two helps clear up a mystery or two.
On low pressure machines alot of times I will use a Kenny 15cfm vac pump for liquid using push pull & the same machine has a homemade watercoled condenser for vapor, on this rig I use 3/4" hoses.
I really like the Carrier machines that have pumpout units on them, those Carlyle compressors are hard to beat.

One thing to remember when you switch over to vapor recovery always have the chilled water pump on & verify flow, when you reach 2* above freezing, stop. Wait 30 min & see if you have pressure rise, if you do, liquid is still present, recover again until you are 2* above freezing, wait, repeat this until there is no rise, then continue recovering, this will ensure that you don't freeze any tubes.

[can]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chiller mekanik
[B]Transfered the 2500 lbs of 134A today, I'll start pulling it apart tomorrow. I'll try to post pictures.

Really 2500lbs? If really 2500lbs, the referigerants of this chiller is too much. What is the full model of your 19XL? The maximum ref.charge for 134A 19XL with cooler size 58 (design II) is 1900 lbs. Why you have 2500lbs R-134a in this chiller? Too much refrigerant in this model will let the oil return system claim back the refrigerant from cooler into the compressor, not the oils. The oil have too much refrigerant. It can case the thrust bearing and hi-speed shaft damage. Sometimes, the impeller will also damage, like your case!

[chiller mekanik]

You are correct Can, I checked the book & it does say 1900 lbs. Not knowing the history of this machine I don't really know for sure how much refrigerant is in it and I stored it in the condenser for now.
The nameplate clearly states 2500 lbs of 134A.
Looking in the book it shows 2500lbs for R22 but, this machine is 134A.
I'll get on the horn with RCD & get their take on this & let you know.

I've completed the disassembly as of today.
The low speed & high speed bearings are done.
The motor shaft is also scored pretty good, may just be some heavy scuff marks, I didn't have time to measure it as I had a service call this afternoon.
I'm leaning toward the possibility that the drive did not fully dis engage when the chiller cycled off.
I've got to go through the drive & the interlocks to see if this is even possible & if so, rule it out one way or the other.

[can]

Dear chiller mekanik,

The book is correct. The nameplate is wrong, because Carrier have some buletin fo decrease the refrigeration capicity for the 19XL chiller. After they are changed to use the linear float valve (means design II). The chiller no need too much refrigerants! The damage for the shaft, thrust bearings and impeller on the same time for 19Xl and XR, yours chiller is not the first one! On this monment, you will need to replacement them. Check the pricing for the impeller you are need to submit the full model and serial number to RCD. Sometimes will need to replace the diffuser too because Carrier changed the design of the diffuser for some models. If the pricing for the lo-speed bearings are not too expansive. I suugest you to replace them too. Becuase they are running a time and can protect you no need to open the compressor again by the problem of the lo-speed later.

Before leak test the chiller. You can install a sight glass between the cooler and the oil reclaim suction filter. It can help you to trim the refrigerant level after the chiller re-start! When the chiller running over 90%, If you see a little be referigants tought the sight glass. It is means the referigant is correct! DON'T FILL TO MUCH REF. INTO THE CHILLER. It will let the oil temp. come down and too much ref. claim back from the coller. WILL LET THE COMPRESSOR DAMAGE AGAIN!

[hw chiller man]

Can is right on with his analysis. Carrier had a bulletin out describing that some chillers were overcharged by as much as 900 lbs. It specifically stated in the bulletin if there were no operational problems not to remove the excess charge. The sight glass in the oil reclaim line was their way of trimming the charge and was a good tool to add to the chiller during any maintenance procedures where access to the line was available.

[chiller mekanik]

Disassembly complete, waiting on parts & red tape.

Will update @ time of reassembly.

Thanks for all input.

[chillrdude]

Hey Mek, you think you're gonna get by only posting 2 pics, whats up with that :D

[chiller mekanik]

Here are the rest of the pics I promised:


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/firmatconion/09_27_06_10481.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/firmatconion/09_27_06_10491.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/firmatconion/09_27_06_10511.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/firmatconion/09_27_06_10521.jpg

[roofas]

Hey Chiller Mekanik if I'm guessing right you are using you're camera phone, with all that money your making you should go buy a digital camera or just borrow mine.

Just busting on you buddy!

[chillrdude]

Kinda hard to get a break, even around here :D

[can]

Overhaul a 19XL is very easy. After all the parts ready and the clean up all the parts need to use. The reassemble work and leak test should be need 1 day only!

[carriermechanic]

One day. That is stupid. You must be non-union. That statement sounds like my old boss. He is my old boss because that is how he would bid a teardown and we would lose our butts.

[can]

carriermehanic,

I'm not stupid. I only talking above the reassemble work and leak tes. I was overhaul over 40 of the 19XL. normanlly, we will disassemble, replace the parts, reassemble and leak within 2 to 3 days by 2 to 3 peoples. I know not all the technician can make this work so fast. This speed only talking above me.

But we are need the time to transfer the refrigerants, make the lifting framework and vaccum the chiller. Totally need 10-14 days!

[chiller mekanik]

Carrier,
I'm sure you weren't trying to say can was stupid, surely you just had a problem with the stated amount of time.
But, I do not understand how someone being non-union automaticly qualifies them as being incapable of bidding work correctly, & I'm union myself.

I don't know if they have unions in Hong Kong or not, but I do know that can is very smart & he knows alot about chillers, therefore he has alot to offer in the way of advice.
I would hate to see a misunderstanding such as this cause him to stop hanging around here.

Can,
Thank you for clarifying what you meant, I hope you will continue to participate in the fun, don't let the comments offend you, sometimes people get a little carried away on here but most of the time everyone means well, in their own way.

One more thing Can, when I rebuilt the 23XL recently I found that the compressor bolts were metric & the bolts on the shells were standard thread.
The bolts on the 19XL compressor are standard as well as the bolts on the shells.
Are the chillers you work on all metric or would they be like the ones I work on here in the states?

[carriermechanic]

I did not call him stupid. He just did not give all the information until now. Sorry. The non union statement, I meant that most non-union hands work at a faster pace in order to get work from us. But in return we usaully get to go behind them because they usually messed something up.

[chiller mekanik]

Now I understand your statement about the non-union contractors, maybe its a regional issue but here in my corner of the world we contend with a few non-union contractors & one of them is OEM & they are truly worthy advesaries.
Its not very often an issue of price, they're very competitive & I can't say anything bad about their work.

Its a jungle out there.

[can]

Dear chiller mekanik,

thank you very much for your thrust. I know that carriermechanic is not fully understand what I said above the reassemble time by my English is not very well. I'm sure that he is a nice man. He also help me a lot of my question of the Carrier 104 and 110 oils.

For the bolts of the 19XL. I know that all the bolts of the compressor and shell is U.S. standard thread for the chiller made in U.S. and China. The compressor bolts is U.S. standard but not sure the bolts on the shell for the chiller made in France.

[supertek65]

Can,
your english is great! I could learn your language in about 100 years! Where did you get all your training? I live in kansas, centrifugal mechanics are very well respected. It is hard to get training. I am going to pay my own way to a York tear down class. Do you have any literature on centrifugal fundamentals? Do you ever come to the U.S.? Frank

[can]

Originally posted by supertek65
Can,
your english is great! I could learn your language in about 100 years! Where did you get all your training? I live in kansas, centrifugal mechanics are very well respected. It is hard to get training. I am going to pay my own way to a York tear down class. Do you have any literature on centrifugal fundamentals? Do you ever come to the U.S.? Frank

Dear supertek65,

All the training by the local Carrier. I'm continue to repairing the Carrier centrifual carrier over 19 yesrs. I never have any fundamentals literature of the centrifugal chiller. Only and some tear catalogs and repairing book for some cotrol system. I'm never go to U.S. by no engouh money and my English for talking is very bad! For typing, I only can type the simple english. I want to know yours know more and help yours more, But really do not know how to speak and type!

[supertek65]

Can,
maybe you can not speak english very well but you type it well. If you ever come to the U.S. or find your way to Kansas, any fellow chiller mechanic could stay with us for a while, we have 2 extra bedrooms. But Kansas is not the best place to visit, maybe California or New York.Do you get paid well? We do o.k. in the U.S. Frank

[Spanner]

Here are the rest of the pics I promised:


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/firmatconion/09_27_06_10481.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/firmatconion/09_27_06_10491.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/firmatconion/09_27_06_10511.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/firmatconion/09_27_06_10521.jpg


chiller mekanik, if you still have the pictures of the 19xl damage, can you please email me a copy because I might have a similar problem. Thanks

[can]

Spanner,

What is the problem of your 19XL?

[Spanner]

The problem is the high speed thrust bearing is worn out in a short time about 18 months. Do you have copies of the 'chiller mekanik' photos, maybe you can post them back on this thread. Thankyou.

[can]

I have not his photos copies, but are you need any help? Or want the spare parts? Are you need any help? What is the complete model of the chiller and where are you come from?

[Spanner]

Thanks can, we have spare parts for the centrifugal compressor. The oil was clean so what can cause damage to the thrust bearing ?

[chilbrig]

I bet the motor temp has been rising on that machine for awhile now as the low speed bearings wore out and the rotor dropped. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[chilbrig]

Surging will take out a thrust bearing real quick.

[can]

Yes surage very let the thrust damage, Somtimes if filled too much refrigerant also will have the same result!

[can]

I bet the motor temp has been rising on that machine for awhile now as the low speed bearings wore out and the rotor dropped. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

High motor temp will not make the bearing damage becase the motoe will damage first. if the bearing temp too high. The chiller will shutdown by the alarm of high bearing temp!

[chilbrig]

Motor temp on a 19XL or 19XR is one of the best ways to check the condition of your low speed bearings. If your motor temp starts to creep up, it's a good indication that your bearing are starting to wear.

[Spanner]

Thanks for the comments, if as suggested, surging can take out the thrust bearing, what actions are suggested to reduce the surging ?