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View Full Version : Icing and airflow, split-system heat pump



friend_of_frozen
09-19-2006, 01:32 AM
Hello all,

Glad to find this forum. I enjoy tinkering with cars and computers but no nothing of HVAC.

My friend's house had a new split-system heat pump installed this past spring. I know it has an Amana TempAssure II model RHE30C2A unit outside. In my ignorance I did not realize there is a separate model number for the inside section - everything I know about HVAC, I've learned from a couple of hours reading this forum.

I am pretty darn sure the air handler inside is not an Amana though; I've looked at it several times and I don't recall seeing the name on the front. It _looks_ a lot like the Amana handlers with the evaporator stuff at the bottom (e.g. the ARUF series) and just like the Amana, hers has the black plastic rectangular access panel on top. If necessary to this discussion I can check more on what model the AH is next time I'm over there.

Problem is icing. The first time it happened, I learned she had not changed her air filters since the unit was installed - maybe 4 months? And when I checked them they were completely clogged up - she has three cats and doesn't vacuum the carpet often. Also, they were the cheapest filters, the ones with flimsy blue fiber stuff.

From reading here, I understand that air flow is the number one cause of icing.

But after changing the filters, about a month ago, the icing is now continuous. System will run fine for a few hours, then gradually the airflow sinks - a sheet of paper no longer sticks to the return grill, supply outflow is reduced - and sure enough, turn it off, remove the main filter behind the air handler, look up inside drywall and the evaporator coil is a solid block of ice. Icing also apparent on copper lines inside outside unit.

Let unit defrost, turn on again, few hours and it's solid ice.

A side note: even ignorant putzes like us knew this thing wasn't installed right, as it was happening. It's a tri-level house and the contractor (major house renovation) advised we should have two HVAC returns, with the secondary one downstairs - the main return and the air handler behind it is on the top floor. (Apparently in our area in her type house, two returns are code.) HVAC installer claimed he couldn't run a return from the lower level, so he put a small 12inchx12inch return in the ceiling of the master bedroom, just inside the door - which puts it about 6 feet away from the main return in the top-floor hallway outside the bedroom! Also, while the registers on the top and bottom floors seem to blow a fair amount of air, there's only a trickle felt out of the middle floor registers.

So this thing has airflow problems out the wazoo to begin with.

Still, the AC functioned nominally for several months, until the first freezeup.

Three questions for now:

1) The coil is an inverted-V open type, visible up inside the box formed by the back of the closet holding the air handler and the return grill opening on the top-floor hall. What is the best way to attempt to clean it? The only thing I can think of is to squirm a vacuum cleaner hand attachment up there and try to run it across as much of the inverted V grill that I can. Any other suggestions?

2) I replaced the low-budget filters with the anti-allergen kind available at any big box home store; I got the highest rated one for stopping dander, etc. Given the marginal airflow of this overall system, do these hypoallergenic super-duper filters significantly impede airflow? (They don't appear clogged at all, not like the solid layer of material coating the original filters.)

3) Because if #2 isn't the answer, then I'm concerned that the initial icing somehow damaged the evaporator coil/air handler system.

My plan is to try cleaning the evaporator coil as best I can, on the theory that the very dirty cheapo filters were letting too much crap get to the coil. If that does not solve the problem, I will try replacing the filters with cheapos again in the hope of increasing airflow, assuming the "premium" filters do in fact block flow enough to initiate icing.

Beyond that I'm at a loss and will have to point her to professional help - NOT the bozos that installed the thing. (They also installed the tstat wiring wrong so no power got to it, contractor's electrician rewired it and had to do something to the outside wiring as well. Oh, and they left one entire duct pipe unattached to its outlet in the attic, and ran off without properly installing 90 percent of the registers: covers left off, adjustment vanes with no adjustment screws or simply missing altogether, etc.)

I don't want to hurt anyone's livelihood, but then again I don't think a homeowner should have to pay for an expensive service call just to clean off coils - if there _are_ any tips to the latter, maybe it's OK to share them here? As well as general airflow advice re the filters?

Thank you!

jim baughman
09-19-2006, 05:02 AM
Go with pleated filters....better

If you stick that vacuum in there, you will bend the fins on the coil and be replacing it out of pocket. Blowing would be better if you have access to something to do that. You have to be careful, that is not as easy as it sounds and we go thru great extent to clean them without damage.

Biggest thing....sounds like it is low on frean and needs to be charged. Call a pro to look at it before you do anything. Under warranty and they can check it out good.

friend_of_frozen
09-19-2006, 11:15 PM
Thanks Jim - good to know my putting the pleated filters in didn't aggravate the problem.

The warranty issue is - tricky. When my friend renovated her house, her dad insisted on paying to install a new HVAC system, using one of his hometown "buddies." So these guys come 50 miles to do the install, and there's instant friction between them and the renovation contractor, who wanted to put in a system himself.

Between that and what seemed to be the HVAC installer's desire to just throw the thing in as quickly and simply as possible, take the father's money and split, the system is a bit of what I see folks in here calling a hack job.

So my friend does NOT want to use the installer for any repair or maintenance work.

Is the warranty honored by any company authorized to service Amana and whatever the air handler is? Or is my friend stuck with using the installer for warranty work?

rick00721
09-20-2006, 12:19 AM
Seems to me the refrigerant might be low. The lower the back preasure the the colder the evaporater will run. If it runs at 32f or under it will freeze.

Check your condensate pan and make sure it is cleaned and make sure that all the water is draining properly. This is unlikly the problem because this usally only occurs with refrigeration equipment that runs really cold. However if your evaporater is running cold do to low pressure it will freeze any water it encounters so I think it is an issue that a pro needs to come check your pressures.

mjk_na
09-20-2006, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by friend_of_frozen
Is the warranty honored by any company authorized to service Amana and whatever the air handler is? Or is my friend stuck with using the installer for warranty work?

Your friend is most likely stuck with the work. If she is willling to repair the work by calling in a new contractor - then it should be a wise thing.

Check a few things before planning to "repair" the system.

1. Sizing correct and condenser-evaporating unit match? If correct, then keep it.

2. Duct suzed properly? If correct, don't do anything.

3. Finally, check the whole installation. Mainly leaks, charging, and wiring.

Your current issue might be with refrigerant leaking (thus causing undercharged state). Do you notice icing after the filter dryer (placed along liquid line)?

All the best :)

jim baughman
09-20-2006, 05:43 AM
Warranty issues are covered by the mfg BUT only for components that are factory installed. If it is low due to not being charged right at first, that is installers deal. If it is leaking where he soldiered the lines, that is installers. Looks like you need to break down and pay someone else to check it out....sorry, but sounds like it probably is installers issue and you are stuck paying. Now you see why we stress the hiring a professional company to do the work instead of buddies.

dash
09-20-2006, 10:57 AM
2) I replaced the low-budget filters with the anti-allergen kind available at any big box home store; I got the highest rated one for stopping dander, etc. Given the marginal airflow of this overall system, do these hypoallergenic super-duper filters significantly impede airflow? (They don't appear clogged at all, not like the solid layer of material coating the original filters.)


Yes ,They impede air flow.

Test it for yoourself,feel the airflow at the farthest supply grille,with those filters ,then feel it with the type you took out.


They also tend to "load up" in just weeks,can be very restricted,long before they look dirty. 3 M's are one of the worst.

docholiday
09-20-2006, 11:22 AM
Dash is right. However the duct system can be modified to deal with the higher pressure drops those filters use. If you remove a standard say 16x20 fiberglass filter from a system and slide in a 16x20 pleated 3m, odds are you are going to choke the system. You would want something like a 20x25 filter (just examples). That of course would require some return duct mods to allow that filter to be used and prevent high face velocities or pressure drop.

thorton
09-20-2006, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by docholiday
Dash is right. However the duct system can be modified to deal with the higher pressure drops those filters use. If you remove a standard say 16x20 fiberglass filter from a system and slide in a 16x20 pleated 3m, odds are you are going to choke the system. You would want something like a 20x25 filter (just examples). That of course would require some return duct mods to allow that filter to be used and prevent high face velocities or pressure drop.

Dash & Docholiday: Walmart sells a pleated filter called a dirt demon. It has a merv rating of 6. This is the lowest pleated filter merv I can find. It seems to work fine in my VS FV4A fan coil. No icing problems or air flow problems even with reduced cfm in a call for dehumidification only ( cool to dehumidify )

Thorton
_____________________
Unless you try to do something beyond what you have
already mastered, you will never grow.

jrbenny
09-20-2006, 12:05 PM
You aren't getting reduced airflow. The FV4 detects the restriction and increases RPM to deliver the requested CFM.

dash
09-20-2006, 03:02 PM
On a call to dehumidify,air flow does reduce.Lower air flow will be at less ESP(restriction),so it's the higher air flow,where the more restrictive filter should be looked at.

As jrbenny stated ,with the FV and it's VS fan,it compensates for more restrictive filters,up to a point.

However your more restritive filters,are increasing the cost to operate the fan motor,may not be enough to worry about,but unless you have a Pro test it,you really don't know.

[Edited by dash on 09-21-2006 at 08:05 AM]

thorton
09-20-2006, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by jrbenny
You aren't getting reduced airflow. The FV4 detects the restriction and increases RPM to deliver the requested CFM.

jrbenny, I beg to differ with you. Reading right out of my Carrier Thermidistat Control operating instructions it says " Carrier Fk and FV Series Variable-Speed Fan Coils with the DE connection have dehumidify inputs which connect directly to Thermidistat Control DHUM output. They are compatable with the reverse logic output and will reduce their cooling CFM by approximately 20 percent when a dehumidify demand is present. Also under the Superdehumidify ( with cool to Dehumidify) during a call to cool to dehumidify it provides maximum dehumidification by reducing airflow to a minimum. The impression I get is that yes, I could have air flow problems with too restrictive of a filter. Which I'm not.

Thorton
________________________
In the end, each of us will be judged
by our standard of life, not by
our standard of living.