Bryant 10 SEER That Keeps Me Up At Night

[visi0n]

It's difficult finding trustworthy HVAC contractors in my area. I certainly have no problem paying trained professions to do their thing and this will be no exception. Sorry for the marathon post, I am hoping detail will save your valueable time and eliminate the common culprits.

My home is 1900 sqft, located in the southeast -- high humidity, 90's in the summer. - No Shade. The year after the home was built I began getting cards and phone calls from the company who installed the AC unit trying to sell me a new unit. This, of course -- leaves me concerned to use them once again.

Since that time I've used three other larger companies in my area but really without any luck. I'm about to try the original company one last time but wanted to see if you guys had any impressions as to what the issue may be so that I can be armed with some knowledge.

The unit is a Bryant 3 ton 10 SEER w/ electric heater. (the cheapest crap they could put in the house, evidently)
The unit is 6.5 years old. Last year, conveniently 4 months after the 5 year warranty, we began hearing a pvc popping sound as some water traveled through to the condensation overflow pan instead of the main gravity drain that exits the house. We noticed at this time that the unit ran much more than usual during the day. A few AC companies did a poor job of cleaning the inside coil. (a hairspray bottle with meangreen degreaser and a soft brush, 10 minutes and $300 later, no improvement) One company claimed the unit was very slightly low on freon and claimed to have added a small amount. -- Then the temperature changed and it became cooler outside.

This summer, I've noticed the return of the PVC popping and considerably more condensation in the overflow pan. (it hasn't really filled enough to trip the float switch and cut off the outside unit but it's gotten close a few times) We are absolutely positive the condensate drain to outside is not clogged (used a garden hose... ) -- it does have a p-trap.

I could tolerate the blue-man-group sounds from the closet but along with the excess condensation in the closet, I've noticed the temperature in our home is getting higher and higher. When we return from work in the evenings, it is 80-82 in the house with the unit set on 76. It runs until midnight to get to 76 and eventually shuts off.

Someone I trust brought over coil cleaner and cleaned both the air handler coil and the outside coil for me. We got plenty of sludge from the inside unit and did a very thorough job of cleaning it -- I feel confident now both coils are as clean as they could be.

Still, the in home temperature stays around the same. uncomfortable 80-82 until midnight.

One AC contractor moved the fan speed from medium to high claiming that would help (and charged me $100). That didn't really help and I think made the condensate problem worse.

Another contractor came while I was at work and checked the outside unit (before we cleaned in the coils) and said the charge was okay and he wanted to clean the inside coil (but he never showed back up to do so)

I adjusted the air handler speed back to medium (how it was factory set) and there is considerably less condensation in the air handler closet. Still, plenty of popping as water drips into the overflow bucket and the unit seems unable to cool the house. It has brand new, clean filters (the throw-away kind, even though I do have one of the high-dollar reusable ones I use in the winter months) -- I've even traced the ductwork in the attic looking for leaks and haven't found anything to speak of.

Any suggestions before the next contractor comes out?

[pony express]

is it possible you're pulling outside air in,(duct leak) or windows left open?

EDIT---> I missed where you've checked the ducts. it makes sense with the extra moisture.

[Edited by pony express on 08-29-2006 at 01:29 AM]

[tomd7735]

High humidity, 90's, no shade, 1900 sq.ft.? Only 3 T. Sounds undersized. Rule of thumb in N.E. is 1 T. every 500 sq.ft. with average insulation, window quality, southern glass exposure... Sounds like the unit is overwhelmed just taking care of the latent heat (humidity) to deal with the sensible heat (temp.) Maybe the builder got a deal on these units and installed them in all the houses built without regard for load calculations. ;)

[rickboggs]

visiOn,
If I was the tech that came to check this system, here's what I would look for.

The drain... don't use a water hose, clear the line with a shop vac from outside... where the condensation exits the drain line. Do this three times a summer.

Excess condensation in the closet... three things to look for here.

1)Assuming your closet is in conditioned space, where the duct goes through the ceiling, is it sealed? If not, humid air from the attic will cause your air handler to sweat... Seal it.

The next two deal with air flow

2)When cleaning the coil, did anyone check the blower wheel? A build up of dust and dirt will form on the blower wheel, the wheel will not catch and throw the air... low airflow.

3)Return air... you running one of those super-duper filters?... Low airflow. Take it out, run a cheepo filter and change it often.

And

D) With a 3 ton unit, you should have 4sqft of return air surface area (24x24 or equal)

E) The Blue-Man-Group... the sound of comfort!

Check those three things and the letters too.

[Edited by rickboggs on 08-29-2006 at 02:43 AM]

[jim baughman]

Ask the next company to do a temperature drop across the coil check to see what the unit is actually running like. This will tell if it is running at capacity. There are so many variables that have to be researched in person to tell you anything extensive. I would look into a heat calculation for your home too and make sure it may not be undersized a 1/2 ton or so also. Rickboggs has some good ideas to check out too.

[Sleuth]

Does the condensate drain have a p-trap in it?


(What you're describing indicates it is not effective)



[Edited by superheatsleuth on 08-29-2006 at 07:23 AM]

[visi0n]

Originally posted by tomd7735
High humidity, 90's, no shade, 1900 sq.ft.? Only 3 T. Sounds undersized. Rule of thumb in N.E. is 1 T. every 500 sq.ft. with average insulation, window quality, southern glass exposure... Sounds like the unit is overwhelmed just taking care of the latent heat (humidity) to deal with the sensible heat (temp.) Maybe the builder got a deal on these units and installed them in all the houses built without regard for load calculations. ;)

Yeah, two of our rooms have very high ceilings too so I'm sure that doesn't help the volume of air to be cooled.
I'm quite certain the builder must've screwed me on this - they did with "builder grade" materials in every other aspect of the place.

I'd still like to get this season behind me and work on getting the new unit when things cool down (and demand cools)

I'm considering getting another unit but if I do it -- I want to do it right. Is there anything out there with more than a 5 year warranty?

[visi0n]

One thing I thought was interesting -- if I put my hand in the Pvc that runs to the overflow pan -- water pours onto my hand, pretty quickly just from the pressure difference. If I put a paper towl (not stopping it up entirely but just enough to muffle the pvc pop that can be heard in every room) -- the inside pan fills very quickly.
(matter of 2 hours)

Dunno if that helps. I checked the ductwork in the attic - no obvious air leaks or obstructions two the accordian ducts that branch from the main duct tree.

I definitely feel this unit is a little undersized for our climate but it also seems like something is wrong with the unit as the climate hasn't been any different than usual in our area.

I still plan on having them come check the system again since I've gotten some of the usual suspects out of the way but if you guys have any other thoughts -- love to hear them and really appreciate the help!

Bill

[visi0n]

Originally posted by rickboggs
visiOn,
If I was the tech that came to check this system, here's what I would look for.

The drain... don't use a water hose, clear the line with a shop vac from outside... where the condensation exits the drain line. Do this three times a summer.

Excess condensation in the closet... three things to look for here.

1)Assuming your closet is in conditioned space, where the duct goes through the ceiling, is it sealed? If not, humid air from the attic will cause your air handler to sweat... Seal it.

The next two deal with air flow

2)When cleaning the coil, did anyone check the blower wheel? A build up of dust and dirt will form on the blower wheel, the wheel will not catch and throw the air... low airflow.

3)Return air... you running one of those super-duper filters?... Low airflow. Take it out, run a cheepo filter and change it often.

And

D) With a 3 ton unit, you should have 4sqft of return air surface area (24x24 or equal)

E) The Blue-Man-Group... the sound of comfort!

Check those three things and the letters too.

[Edited by rickboggs on 08-29-2006 at 02:43 AM]

Great stuff -- thanks again.

1) The Closet is sealed well from the attic with no obvious air leaks.

2) You know, I only saw the one guy remove the top air handler door long enough to change the fan speed -- I'll check that out, I'm glad you mentioned it.

3 & D) using elcheapo filters - at least whenever running the ac. I only use the reusable one with the furnace and I'm thinking about stopping that practice.. The return size is 18x24 with a louvre grill on it. there is enough space on the opposing wall to add a second return and I've considered cutting the sheetrock to add a second but didn't want to make anything worse since I'm no expert =)

E) I do have some of their albums but prefer being able to hit mute =)

Thanks again for the help!

[visi0n]

Originally posted by superheatsleuth
Does the condensate drain have a p-trap in it?


(What you're describing indicates it is not effective)



[Edited by superheatsleuth on 08-29-2006 at 07:23 AM]
It does but are there multiple flavors of p-traps or ways that they could be incorrectly installed?

[rickboggs]

visi0n,
As sleuth pointed out, not having a p-trap will cause the blue-man-group sounds. Air sucking up through the drain line making a gurgling sound. There may be another reason for the sound. On the front of your air handler are (maybe) other optional drain line accesses. If they are not plugged they can gurgle out a tune.

I like to use filter back return air grilles, that way the air is filtered before the return air duct... keeps the duct nice and clean.

If the drain line is black plastic pipe and the line set is run through a chase (4" PVC under the concrete slab), you should not need a p-trap. The black pipe is anything but straight going through the chase and has many traps.

[Edited by rickboggs on 08-29-2006 at 01:05 PM]

[visi0n]

Originally posted by rickboggs
visi0n,
As sleuth pointed out, not having a p-trap will cause the blue-man-group sounds. Air sucking up through the drain line making a gurgling sound. There may be another reason for the sound. On the front of your air handler are (maybe) other optional drain line accesses. If they are not plugged they can gurgle out a tune.

I like to use filter back return air grilles, that way the air is filtered before the return air duct... keeps the duct nice and clean.

If the drain line is black plastic pipe and the line set is run through a chase (4" PVC under the concrete slab), you should not need a p-trap. The black pipe is anything but straight going through the chase and has many traps.

[Edited by rickboggs on 08-29-2006 at 01:05 PM]

The two drains are both white pvc. The one outside comes from the air handler, does the p-trap angle and then goes into the slab.
The popping seems to come from the other drain -- the overflow drain that goes straight down and is cut about 2" from the bottom the condensate pan inside the house. The gurgle/popping appears to be water coming in this tube or maybe dancing around the top of the tube. Should the pan that leads directly to the inside overflow condensate pan have a p-trap as well?

[jdenyer]

Is the primary drain clogged? Are you sure? Use a wet/dry shop vac to clear it out. Water only comes out of the secondary drain ie overflow when the main or primary drain is plugged. Hope this helps.

[visi0n]

Originally posted by jdenyer
Is the primary drain clogged? Are you sure? Use a wet/dry shop vac to clear it out. Water only comes out of the secondary drain ie overflow when the main or primary drain is plugged. Hope this helps.
you can pour liquid straight through the bleach access and watch it pour on the outside of the house -- the main drain is not clogged.

[profish00]

Whats the air temp coming out of the grill, at 5PM

[rickboggs]

Never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever use bleach!!!! It is highly corrosive. It will eat holes in your copper!!!

You put a float switch in place of the overflow and the Blue-Men will go away.

If your line set (copper, drain line control wires) are running through that angle pipe... we call it the chase.

[Edited by rickboggs on 08-29-2006 at 06:20 PM]

[tomd7735]

Sounds like too much negative pressure is holding the condensate back intermittently - pop, pop... Maybe the return's too small or could use a deeper trap (hand-made of elbows, pipe...

[visi0n]

I wanted to say thanks to everyone for the help and suggestions. I removed some of the coveres from the air handler and put them back into place. It seems like possibly the air handler wasn't sealed all the way, maybe it was sucking air.


The condensation was better yesterday from that, fewer popping -- once an hour instead of 30 pops/ minute. It still struggles to cool the home but it much more bearable. I will check out the wheel in a day or so and probably have them come to check the temp drop over the coils as you recommended.

It looks like from these suggestions and it's current operation my house is at least livable now.
Which leaves me to focus on the real solution -- researching and buying a new unit. Are there any brands with better recommendations for lasting than others?
I'd love to hear your suggestions on systems that would be good for my home or brands with which you've had good experiences (or bad ones to stay away from)
I just don't want to be back in the position of buying a new AC unit every 5 years..

Thanks again for the time and help!