American Standard system

[arlobiggs]

Is there anywhere I can get the prices for an American Standard heat pump, air handler, and thermostat? I just got an estimate to change out the old heat pump and air handler, and want to check out the bid. There is just a total price, no breakdown. The job is to replace the outside unit (using existing electrical and freon lines, etc.) and replace the air handler, using the existing plenum and ducting. The estimator admitted that it would be an easy job, everything accessable. I want to know what the units cost. I'm getting two other bids next week. the units: Heat Pump: Heritage 13 Comfort System 2A6H3042A1. Air Handler: 2TEC3F43A1 with elec. heat backup. Digital thermostat. The old system lasted 16 years, but has lost much of it's effeciency. Still works, just uses a noticable amount of additional electricity in a month. Any help would be appreciated. Not up on this stuff, as I only do it every 15 or so years!

Arlo

[smokin68]

Don't mean to sound bad, but you were given a bid. That's what having those units installed in your home will cost. You don't need to know the price of the unit, as there's alot more cost to it than just that. Ask your next bidder how much he's paying for the units and see what he tells you....

[arlobiggs]

Wellsir, if you, as a professional, are not willing to tell me the unit prices, you are certainly welcome to do that. I plan on finding out the unit costs. That's why I took the trouble of registering and posting here. Why the secrecy? I suppose the information is out there somewhere. I know (as a former business owner), that the costs in excess of the materials is not all labor and profit. But, an excessive amount for an easy installation would send up warning flags. My bidders next week will be told specifically to break it down. I failed to do that with the first bidder. Who, incidently, installed my first (very good) system on our new house sixteen years ago. I'm retired, thrifty, frugal, and cheap. Caint help it, way I was brought up.

[smngmu]

Arlo,You have a problem.When you bought your house,did you ask what it costed the company to build it or just pay up?Did you ask your car dealer how much it cost to build the car,then see how much he's charging you for it? Probably not. My price for a piece of equipment may be different than someone elses due to more volume, buying in bulk, or a close out deal that was offered.When you ask for such things as a breakdown of how much the unit costs,it will vary under certain circumstances.ALSO, take note that several other persons have asked for such a request as this and want to bark at us for things such as mark up and installed price.We can NOT discuss price here but MY personal advise is to keep looking.Asking a possible seller this question over the phone will deffinitely cut down on how much time you have to spend listening to them.With the contractor cost of alot of equipment going up,You'll be hard pressed to find a contractor(professional) that will be able to nail a number down.By the time you sign a contract,should the equipment price rise due to unforseeables,are you willing to go with a slightly higher price.Probably not.Things such as this are figured into every bid I submit and it is just for this reason that I have not and will not itemise.Prices change from time to time and location to location.
P.S. Any REAL contractor will walk if you blert the works "But I can get the same equipment for".Good Luck.
P.S. #2-As stated throughout this forum,Equipent/systems only really work if properly installed AND maintained.So are you really going to run this risk with a $10.00 install when a $100.00 install would last ,say, 15 years?

[Edited by smngmu on 08-26-2006 at 09:34 PM]

[smokin68]

[QUOTE][i] I know (as a former business owner), that the costs in excess of the materials is not all labor and profit.

What was your business? Did you disclose all of YOUR costs to your clients?






I failed to do that with the first bidder. Who, incidently, installed my first (very good) system on our new house sixteen years ago. I'm retired, thrifty, frugal, and cheap.

Don't add stupid to the list. You had a very good system installed by a company you know, and you're going to jeopardise your next system to save a couple of bucks. Not too smart.

[hvac hero]

Not meaning to sound rude but the cost of the equipment is none of your business. Thats between the contractor & the distributor. They are giving you a bottom line price to install a system. You still gotta write the check no matter if its 50 % equipment & 50 % labor. Or if its 75% labor & 25% material. Most people that ask this question are wanting to get a figure for the labor & then ask how long it takes to do the job & then divide it to see how much they are making an hour. Then you get mad because you realize the company is making more an hour than you are.

Another thing, I would be concerned about a contractor that is reusing plenums & linesets. Just my opinion. We always replace supply & return plenums with new air tights & tie the duct in with a few feet of flex. But then again they might be re-using this because you've already come off as wanting a low budget job.

Good luck with all this.

[BaldLoonie]

I bet he goes to Outback Steakhouse and demands to know from the server what they pay for a 12 ounce sirloin too :D

[fatboywv]

just put it in your self and spend more

[arlobiggs]

I KNOW what my current house cost to build, as I built it myself. Cement (subcontract) to shingles (amigos). I also did the plumbing and electrical myself. To code. I did have a professional install the heat pump/airhandler/ducts etc., and I knew the individual unit prices. And yes, I know what a car dealer pays for a car, including the holdback. That's where I start from. I expect one of the licensed companies giving me bids will be substantially cheaper than the other two. AND, if they want to bid, they will give me a breakdown. We can sort that out over the phone, or they won't be coming. I'm giving local companies a chance. I'm buying American. But I'm not going to just lay down and spread 'em. If that does not work, I have a neighbor who is retired from the HVAC industry, and would be willing to help, if I'll supply the muscle. He'll supply the brains, as I'm a little short in that department :).

[arlobiggs]

Originally posted by hvac hero
Not meaning to sound rude but the cost of the equipment is none of your business. Thats between the contractor & the distributor. They are giving you a bottom line price to install a system. You still gotta write the check no matter if its 50 % equipment & 50 % labor. Or if its 75% labor & 25% material. Most people that ask this question are wanting to get a figure for the labor & then ask how long it takes to do the job & then divide it to see how much they are making an hour. Then you get mad because you realize the company is making more an hour than you are.

Another thing, I would be concerned about a contractor that is reusing plenums & linesets. Just my opinion. We always replace supply & return plenums with new air tights & tie the duct in with a few feet of flex. But then again they might be re-using this because you've already come off as wanting a low budget job.

Good luck with all this.

The plenum is sound. The linesets are sound. I retired from an airline, and was always embarrased to admit what I was making per flight hour, and don't care what anybody else makes. Low budget job? With AS Seer 13 3.5 ton system? New air handler with aux heat? New digital thermostat? No elec wiring, no running R22 lines, drains, old pad like new? Get real. I'm making this job as easy as possible for the installer, and expect the price to reflect that. $5100 (first bid) does not reflect that. I ask opinions and get hammered.."Pay up or else!". Sheese. Must be a seller's market in the HVAC business. Thank you for your comments, tho.

Arlo

[arlobiggs]

Originally posted by BaldLoonie
I bet he goes to Outback Steakhouse and demands to know from the server what they pay for a 12 ounce sirloin too :D



Don't need to ask. Dear Wife is a restaurant manager. She has to order the food sometimes. We know what it costs. And the Outback Special fits me just fine.

[duct dr]

Just a couple of questions for you Arlo. 1) Do you demand from Wal-Mart to know what they pay for shoes before you buy them? 2) Are you a licensed Plumber and Electrician? If not, you may want to be careful about making that public knowledge. Any decent contractor won't tell you what he pays for the equipment. Why would he want to? I have yet to see any contractor give a breakdown on any bid or estimate. My reply to you sir would be "I'm sorry sir, we are unable to meet your request. Have a nice day".

[duct dr]

By the way, American Standard is on of the more higher priced brands out there. "EASY" job or not, the end result is how well the system is installed. Or are you not concerned about quality.

[rickboggs]

Get real. I'm making this job as easy as possible for the installer

arlo, For some reason, I don't think so.

[arlobiggs]

Originally posted by duct dr
Just a couple of questions for you Arlo. 1) Do you demand from Wal-Mart to know what they pay for shoes before you buy them? 2) Are you a licensed Plumber and Electrician? If not, you may want to be careful about making that public knowledge. Any decent contractor won't tell you what he pays for the equipment. Why would he want to? I have yet to see any contractor give a breakdown on any bid or estimate. My reply to you sir would be "I'm sorry sir, we are unable to meet your request. Have a nice day".

First off, I live in the country. We don't have "codes" like you city fellers. The county does have to come perk test and approve the septic. Otherwise, all official concerns end at where the water lines enter the property, and the elec. utility box hanging on the house. And yes, I have a good idea what Walmart pays for shoes. Not much, that I can tell you. I don't care what a contractor is paying for his units. I want to know what he is charging me for that unit. As far as your reply "I'm sorry, Sir....etc." You've just lost a customer. And probably for good. Is that what you wanted?. Have a nice day.

[servicetech5]

So I guess the contractors workers are to work for free,and the gas to but in his trucks is free and the insurance company is giving him a free ride too.For someone who was a business owner you must have forgot how much it cost to run a business

[arlobiggs]

OK, I guess I have to end this. The response to my original question seems to be "It's a secret." Now it's an interesting challenge. Somebody will spill the beans. Not done by a long shot :). But this thread has ended. Bye.

[rickboggs]

My dad has a ranch in OK. His buddy who has a ranch in Texas came to visit. Bragging, he told my dad it took 3 days to drive across his ranch... My dad said, "I use to have a truck like that."

[arlobiggs]

Good one. Gonna write that down, so I can remember it. See ya, and I hope I have not ruffled (too many) feathers. Retired, thrifty, frugal, cheap. Have to be. Want to stay retired. Don't know why I'm so worried about the cost, anyway. Dear Wife says she is going to pay for it. :)

[duct dr]

Well Mr.biggs, no one on this site is going to give you prices. As far as losing a customer, you are in TX and I am not. Oh and one more thing, I live in the country too, we have building codes, and we hire licensed contractors. Guess that falls back on the quality issue.

[servicetech5]

anybody know how much the doctor gets to do brain surgery.I just have to get the cheapest one

[duct dr]

Gee, he said he's cheap, frugal, and has little to no brains. I just wonder what he really knows about plumbing and electricity.

[Edited by duct dr on 08-26-2006 at 11:26 PM]

[arlobiggs]

"Well Mr.biggs, no one on this site is going to give you prices."

Sure wish somebody would have just come out and told me that. You can all just........have a really nice day.
See yall.

[arlobiggs]

Originally posted by duct dr
Retired, thrifty, frugal, cheap. Boy you said it all there.

What's yer point?

[smokin68]

Ran his own business in the airline industry, wife was a restaurant manager. Throw a penny between them you'd have copper wire.


Line up contractors, this guy wants a bid!!!! Any takers???

Didn't think so. I pity the poor soul that eventually gets the install and ends up paying them to install it.

[duct dr]

Originally posted by arlobiggs
"Well Mr.biggs, no one on this site is going to give you prices."

Sure wish somebody would have just come out and told me that. You can all just........have a really nice day.
See yall.

No need to tell you that, it's in the rules of this site.

[amickracing]

Wow, 2 pages of this? I kinda figured it'd die out around 1/2 a page. Ha.... edit.. guess I made it to page 3! lol

Here's a somewhat legit answer... I could tell you what we pay for equipment (we sell A/S), but honestly that price not only is different for most contractors in this area, but I'm sure it's different in different area's. In general the more units that contractor sells the more of a break he gets. Not to mention when they bought it.... equip seems to jump up in price more often than gas (ok, probably not that bad, but it's often!).

It doesn't happen very often, but I have heard of customers wanting a break down of the job's bid price. X for materials, X for equip, X for labor etc. I'd bet most places would be happy to supply that answer to you, especially if you are locked into buying the system from them. Now if you got a bid, but wanted to use thier bid (the itemized one) to shop other bids, then they might not.

[arlobiggs]

And you Dr Duck, can just kiss my patotie. You don't contribute much to the conversation, do you? Just the ocasional snide comment? Mugu. See ya.

[duct dr]

Originally posted by arlobiggs
And you Dr Duck, can just kiss my patotie. You don't contribute much to the conversation, do you? Just the ocasional snide comment? Mugu. See ya.

First of all it's DUCT not duck, second I just started to repeat what you stated earlier. If that offends you maybe you should'nt have said it in the first place.

[arlobiggs]

Originally posted by amickracing
Wow, 2 pages of this? I kinda figured it'd die out around 1/2 a page. Ha.... edit.. guess I made it to page 3! lol

Here's a somewhat legit answer... I could tell you what we pay for equipment (we sell A/S), but honestly that price not only is different for most contractors in this area, but I'm sure it's different in different area's. In general the more units that contractor sells the more of a break he gets. Not to mention when they bought it.... equip seems to jump up in price more often than gas (ok, probably not that bad, but it's often!).

It doesn't happen very often, but I have heard of customers wanting a break down of the job's bid price. X for materials, X for equip, X for labor etc. I'd bet most places would be happy to supply that answer to you, especially if you are locked into buying the system from them. Now if you got a bid, but wanted to use thier bid (the itemized one) to shop other bids, then they might not.



Hey, thanks for the good reply. I know the price is different for different reasons. I didn't know it was a regional difference. I just suspect the first bid I got was higher than it should be. If he had said "$4000", I would have said, sold, as I know what the units cost from 16 years ago. If I had an idea of unit costs, I can sort it out. The company that I had install my first unit is the same company that gave me the bid yesterday. But 16 years have passed (quickly), and is it the same company now? I have no idea. I really didn't think I would be lighting fires. Just a price, that's all I was asking for. Look at some of the snide responses. Jeeze! You, sir, however, gave me a thoughtful response. Thanks.

[arlobiggs]

"Ran his own business in the airline industry"

1. Retired military, 21 years.
2. Retired airline pilot, 14 years.
3. Small business owner, 7 years.
4. Wife, restaurant manager, 15 years, still working.

Retired, thrifty, frugal, cheap, and a THICK SKIN!LOL

[rivethog]

Don't mean to sound bad, but you were given a bid. That's what having those units installed in your home will cost. You don't need to know the price of the unit, as there's alot more cost to it than just that.

Things such as this are figured into every bid I submit and it is just for this reason that I have not and will not itemise.Prices change from time to time and location to location.

Not meaning to sound rude but the cost of the equipment is none of your business. Thats between the contractor & the distributor. They are giving you a bottom line price to install a system.

Any decent contractor won't tell you what he pays for the equipment. Why would he want to?

And I'll bet all of you pay sticker price when you buy a new car, right? Suuuuuuure you do.:D :D :D

If you went to an auto repair shop to have a starter replaced and they gave you a price with no breakdown for parts or labor, you'd walk out of there, wouldn't you?

I don't think the OP was asking what you paid for the equipment, he was asking what you sold the equipment for. Since there doesn't seem to be any MSRP on HVAC equipment, it's pretty hard to know if a company is ripping someone off. And yes, I know. No prices please.

[Edited by rivethog on 08-27-2006 at 12:21 AM]

[arlobiggs]

Now I forget what I even asked in the orig. post. I guess the question should have been "Is 5100 too much for just the units and installation using existing ducts, r22 line (filled), electrics, pad in place and accessable?" But then I would not have had an evenings fun. It's too dark to work on my old motorhome, and if I go to bed now, Dear Wife might get ideas. I tried to end this thread once, didn't work.

[aircooled53]

Remember old timer,frugal/cheap

You get what you pay for.

I wouldn't tell you what I paid for equipment because it ain't none of your business what I paid.If you want a break down per /equipment/labor=_______________..

If you want a system installed, then
1) Air Handler
2) Condenser
3) Thermostat/pad/line-set
4) Warranty/Load calculation

Total Bid Price:_________________

[arlobiggs]

I don't think I ever asked what anyone paid for it. I want to see what I'm being charged on the bid sheet. Somehow, everybody seems to think I want what they paid. Nope. I want to see what I'm paying. My money, right? My decision. The markup is usually about 30%. Fine. The install will take X hours. Fine. The total bid is such and such. Fine again. The bids are from American Standard dealers. My ducts were inspected. My elec. lines were looked at, inside and out. Ditto the r22 line. If there was a problem re-using any of this, the feller would have said something, I hope. We'll see how next weeks bids go. Somebody is going to get my business and my money. The one who gives me an upfront, honest bid will get my vote. Please don't tell me I don't have to be carefull with a major purchase like this. "Trust me"? Sorry. Too many bad stories, even on this very forum! I have not been ripped off in many years. I don't want to start now. Thank you for your informative responses.

Arlo

[arlobiggs]

One final note: I did not realize (my fault entirely) that a discussion of prices was a no-no. The HVAC industry seems to want to operate in secret. That's ok, as long as you can get away with it. Good night, and thanks for the interesting conversation.

Arlo

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by arlobiggs
One final note: I did not realize (my fault entirely) that a discussion of prices was a no-no. The HVAC industry seems to want to operate in secret. That's ok, as long as you can get away with it. Good night, and thanks for the interesting conversation.

Arlo

It's a secret because cheapskates like you drag down the industry. If I tell you what something costs you will try to get it for less, be it labor or equipment. Don't you realize that isn't what is important? What would you rather have a public defender(free) or someone that will actually get the job done and get it done properly and efficiently(paid lawyer)? Think about it.

[rivethog]

What would you rather have a public defender(free) or someone that will actually get the job done and get it done properly and efficiently(paid lawyer)? Think about it.

Do you hire F. Lee Bailey to handle all of your legal affairs? Or do you hire someone you can afford?

[smngmu]

As I stated,as well a others,what I pay for a piece of equipment may be different than someone else.It all has to do with supply and demand.If I only sell one of a brand in six months and another installed every week,which one do you think I will get a better deal from?You already have one bid.Get at least two more and see the comparisons for yourself.

[riderman]

arlobiggs
Ya screwed up, just like I did. Ya asked the wrong question on the wrong forum. Prices are a problem here. You will never get an answer from this site for HVAC priced items. They are marked up 40-60% from their purchase price from the retailer. I'll be banned for this....LOL But ya gatta agree, you were given a installation price from the contactor... The difference is a good installation between the hacks and the pro's. I had, and paid for both. Some here on this forum, are great for information. Some are hacks, just as in the real world. Look at the responces to newbies\HO questions. The hacks are the one line no information giving pukes who feel when you break forum rules, you should be slammed as required. They get a woody out of that. These same hacks, are seldem chastised by the moderators for their smart ass replies. Because they are reg's? (look at their posts, it's the same people) Go figure. The pro's answer in the appropriate manner!! Pro's, WE THANK YOU!!!!

[praha99]

Originally posted by arlobiggs


As far as your reply "I'm sorry, Sir....etc." You've just lost a customer. And probably for good. Is that what you wanted?. Have a nice day.

LOL You`d be fired as a customer with that question anyway..
Just call out as many contractors as you can find and go with the lowest bid cause that`s the workmanship you deserve.

[Edited by Praha99 on 08-27-2006 at 02:38 AM]

[smngmu]

I'm starting to get the feeling he doesn't like "inflation".
"if he had said $4000.00....sold.......16 years ago".Times have changed and prices have gone up.Get your bids and best of luck.

[jim baughman]

It would be hard to even give you that cost factor....one company might pay one price for it, then another would pay less because they buy volumes. That would vary so much and is not important....you only need to know the final bill you will have to pay, regardless of the breakdown. If for instance: company 1 told you $xxxx for installing the system and it was 50% labor and 50% materials...company 2 gave you the exact same amount, but broke it down to 60% materials and 40% labor...which are you going to choose? It was the same price on the bottom line. Installation quality is a BIG factor and has to be considered closely. Our company buys so many that we get a real good price and can usually cut the costs of an installation under the quotes of other companies in this area. But then they sometimes cut the price on the install and the customer buys their systems and regrets the quality of the work later. You get what you pay for.

Its not which sink the doctor used to wash his hand before surgery, but how well he washed them.

[Edited by jim baughman on 08-27-2006 at 07:49 AM]

[rickboggs]

arlo, you can compare prices or even buy (http://www.not here.com/) equipment online. No american standard though.

>>>Edit: Removed link. Please don't put DIY links on this forum.<<<

[Edited by jrbenny on 08-27-2006 at 02:50 PM]

[arlobiggs]

Thank you for the link, Rick. Some great information there. Too bad no American Standard, tho. I had, and am still having such good luck with that brand, I am going to try to stick with them. This purchase is preventative. My current Trane 3 ton heat pump system works fine, although much less efficient than when new. I don't want to wake up some cold morning this winter, and discover that my system has decided it's had enough. These heat pump systems last 10-12 years, according to my research. My system is 16+ years, right now. I'm pushing it, and that's why I'm shopping. Do you install Goodman, Rudd? Have you had a good experience with their eqpt, Rick?

And guys, I DON'T care what you paid for your units. I just want the bid to reflect what you are charging me for the units. That kind of a breakdown just helps in making an informed decision. Most expensive is not always best.
Cheapest is not always best. After reading some threads on this forum, luck seems to have a lot to do with it, also. LOL. And, to those who took the time and gave me a worthwhile response, THANKS. To those who responded with a slam, KMA :).

Arlo

[Steve Wiggins]

Mr. Biggs what you are having trouble understanding is when we price equipment replacement we give you a FLAT RATE PRICE.

You are wanting a TIME AND MATERIALS PRICE.

In flat rate pricing there does not have to be a MARKUP on materials. NO MARKUP. ZERO %. What we pay you pay. All the profit is rolled into our labor.

The reason we do this is because there are so many unseen items that need to be billed for. If we listed all them it would just make you mad. I mean like oxygen, aceteylene, solder, dust masks, wire nuts, and a thousand other little inexpensive items that really add up.

We would rather make that one out of a hunderd customer mad like you than make 99 out of a hunderd normal customers mad by T&M pricing.

We hold the labor costs as variable because one situation might be more difficult (labor intensive) than another. In your case the install might be easy but you might live a "fur piece" from the parts house (excessive travel is expensive). And when you come across as being "anal" about stuff, like I know you do, you can expect to pay at least $500-$1000 extra just because you are a pain in the ass.

P.S. That line about different contractors pay different amounts for equipment based on volume and location is a bunch of bull. There isn't more than 2% difference across the board in what we pay. There IS a great deal of difference in the labor charges though.

[willb]

Arlo,

I too have the same problem that you do. There are numerous companies selling on the internet. I have found a number of them by typing the name of the unit and pricing or price. For example, "trane pricing."

To me, the way HVAC units are currently sold is a way of the past and will be changing in the next 5-10 years. I would suggest finding and buying a unit on the internet and hiring a HVAC man to install it. The HVAC installers are not the ones making the money in the scam, its the people above them. My last unit, I bought a rheem unit on e-bay for $600 and paid an installer $600 plus materials to install. He made $60/hr and I got a furnace for 1/3 the cost of hiring a contractor.

The reason contractors don't want you to know the price they pay for the unit is because its hard to look someone in the eye and say, "I paid $6000 for the unit, but I'm selling it for $10,000. Which, by the way, is the price given to me from a contractor vs. what I found it on the internet. No warhousing, no inventory, no nothing but markup. He pays the installer $600 to $1000 per day, and he pockets the rest. I want everyone to make a living off of the work they do for me, I just don't want them to get rich.

Two watchouts for doing this are:
Make sure you buy from an authorized dealer. Some companies do not honor warranties for units sold on the internet.
The installation is more important than the unit itself. The HVAC installer is everything, find the best installer you can and pay him well.

Sorry guys, I don't mean to offend anyone, but it seems to me the contractors/distributors that are used in the industry are the robbers in this scam.

[arlobiggs]

"And when you come across as being "anal" about stuff, like I know you do, you can expect to pay at least $500-$1000 extra just because you are a pain in the ass."

Yeah, right! My first estimate: I said "Can I just replace the two units, and use the old ducts, lines, electrics. Answer was "sure, looks like an easy installation". He didn't say "We don't recomment that." or "16 year old tin is wore out" or "You need new linesets or elec. lines." You don't think I would have listened, if he had said that? The amount quoted did not seem to reflect the installation. That's why I came on here to visit in the first place. In between the trolls and nasty comments have been some good nuggets of info. Even tho you guys don't seem to agree on much. I can sort it out. If someone does not want my business, just overbid. I won't be using you. This is not rocket science, and I have choices. I like small, local businesses and tradesmen. They always get the first shot. I have not even called Home Depot, as I suspect Home Depot gets their cut, and the local sub takes the hit. I want to spend "just enough" not "too much, man, did I get took". Everything is negotiable.

Arlo

P.S. The economy is tanking. Be ready for it. Nothing further, out.



[Edited by arlobiggs on 08-27-2006 at 10:46 AM]

[rivethog]

If for instance: company 1 told you $xxxx for installing the system and it was 50% labor and 50% materials...company 2 gave you the exact same amount, but broke it down to 60% materials and 40% labor...which are you going to choose?
Company #1. They've allotted more time for labor, and as EVERYONE on this site says, the installation is more important than the equipment.

[Mr Bill]

First off I did not want to even lower myself to post on this thread but I could not resist, when is it "anyone's" business how much "anyone" makes regardless of there trade, I personally think that is a very rude question, what do you go around all the time asking your friends and relatives how much they make? it's the same it's no different than you asking us.

Another thing is that if you take the profit we make at face value and don't count "all" the other overhead like Insurance, Truck expenses "priced gas lately?"office supplies etc. and I could go on and on that profit margin comes out to a fairly decent hourly wage, from the owners of the business like me to my employees.

Why don't you post the hourly wages you and your wife make or have made in the past at your jobs?
even thought I don't care to know some might, You know what folks make is really no ones business and if someone needs to know that about me, you know what I would tell them well how often do you and you wife have sex? or how big are her breasts? to me that is about as private as what any person makes at their job.

I hope you find what your looking for and don't make to many enemies along your travels.

[Steve Wiggins]

Arlo will you be wanting to know the amount of the rebate paid to the contractor?

[arlobiggs]

Come on,now. Where have I asked what anyone makes per hour? I don't care, except I hope it's enough for a decent living. My concern and research will tell me if I am paying too little, too much, or just enough. Should I decide to acquire the units and installation kits (and I probably would not), I would be happy to pay an installer $100 an hour for a competent installation.

[rivethog]

"when is it "anyone's" business how much "anyone" makes regardless of there trade
When they're the ones paying the labor rate. You never ask what the labor rate is at an auto repair facility or how much a lawyer charges per hour? Most reputable shops post their labor rates in plain view, and list them on any estimate or invoices, as do most service professions (lawyers, welders, computer repair, mechanics, auto body repairman, plumbers, electricians, etc.). No ones asking how much of the labor rate you pocket, only what your labor rate is. Service personnel aren't paid the labor rate that is charged by the company. Most people understand that.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by rivethog
"when is it "anyone's" business how much "anyone" makes regardless of there trade
When they're the ones paying the labor rate.

Well that is irrelevant to me because those kind of folks would "not" be paying me so I can't relate, I will post my labor rates right look>$75.00 per hr. but when I install a complete system it's a flat rate charge and if you don't like flat rate charges past me on up and call up your local hack they will work for food.

[arlobiggs]

"Arlo will you be wanting to know the amount of the rebate paid to the contractor?"

I know how much it is for an auto. It's called a "hold back". Just something good to know when buying a new car. Knowledge is power, right?

[arlobiggs]

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by rivethog
"when is it "anyone's" business how much "anyone" makes regardless of there trade
When they're the ones paying the labor rate.

Well that is irrelevant to me because those kind of folks would "not" be paying me so I can't relate, I will post my labor rates right look>$75.00 per hr. but when I install a complete system it's a flat rate charge and if you don't like flat rate charges past me on up and call up your local hack they will work for food.

Your labor rates are very reasonable and seem to be in line. BUT, I'm not having a complete system installed. I'm having a unit replacement. If you consider my istallation a complete system worthy of a flat rate, I guarantee I'll pass you up.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by arlobiggs
If you consider my istallation a complete system worthy of a flat rate, I guarantee I'll pass you up.

Been doing it for 20 years out of my 30 in business years in Houston and have never had not one customer gripe, when your hot you just want it done by someone you can trust and you know because of there reputation they will be doing you a good job, so why would I won't to change my pricing from flat rates on complete systems in mid stream if this is working for us? and it's a lot easier for the bookkeeper, we also flat rate condensers and furnaces and evaporators coils, and you can bet this will be the pricing of the future in this business, I see my competitors doing it everyday.
Personally to be honest with you it's none of my business what you want to ask someone or know in life, but it is my business what I want to answer.

[rivethog]

I find it hard to correlate some of some of the advice given on this site. Without fail, the #1 piece of advice given is "get a good installer". Then most turn right around and say, "I charge a flat rate for installation" or "I charge a percentage for installation". Now, I may be just a dumb ol' hick, but common sense tells me that if someone gives me a flat rate of $750 for labor, and their "undisclosed" labor rate is $75/hr, and the job is going to end up taking more than 10hrs to do correctly due to something unforseen, there's going to be shortcuts taken to get within the 10hrs that were allotted for "labor".

[smokin68]

Arlo will get his price. The non-English speaking crew that doesn't have workman's comp or anything else(permit, etc.) can do the job MUCH cheaper. So when "thrifty" arlo has to explain to his wife why it's hot in the house next summer and he can't seem to get a hold of the company that installed his system, she can remind him how frugal he is. BTW, this is a guy that car saleman go to lunch when they see coming. I can see it now....Here, I've got an outlet and some rusty screws in this drawer you can use, now take it off my bill. The customer from he!!. Whoever ends up with this guy is going to hate themselves.....

[Mr Bill]

rivethog, Maybe I did not make myself real clear, sorry, if I give you a flat rate price to change out your condenser, it includes labor and parts that will be your drive out price"guaranteed", and if it takes me longer than predicted in that flat rate price well that is my problem and sometimes this happens but it's usually a wash because some may take a shorter time.

[rivethog]

"BTW, this is a guy that car saleman go to lunch when they see coming."
And you go into a car dealer and announce to the world "I'll pay sticker price.". Yeah, suuuuuure.

[arlobiggs]

I used to be a welder and steel fabricator in Houston. 1st job, $1.25 an hour. Hardest work I ever did.

What people here seem to ignore: I want a good price for a good set of replacement units. NOT a complete system. If I suspected problems with the ducts, they'd be replaced. Problems with electrics, breakers, wiring, etc., they'd be replaced. Thermostat is being replaced as I want a programable digital. Now we are talking a much bigger job and a complete system. If your flat rate is lower than another one, and you have the reputation, you'd get the business. Being so inflexable about flat rates may help your bookkeeper, but it also helps the home owner make a decision. And it may not be the one you like. Sounds like a seller's market. I hate those :0.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by arlobiggs
Being so inflexable about flat rates may help your bookkeeper, but it also helps the home owner make a decision.

And you exactly right! it saves us both a lot of time and that is what I love about flat rate pricing.

[rivethog]

"it's usually a wash because some may take a shorter time."
And that would be fine if you did 4 systems for me and "overcharged" me on 2 and "undercharged" me on 2. It would be a wash. But, since in most instances, a homeowner is only going to have 1 system installed, they may get the "overcharge" to pay for someone else's "undercharge". It's not a wash to the homeowner that got the "overcharge".

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by rivethog
"it's usually a wash because some may take a shorter time."
And that would be fine if you did 4 systems for me and "overcharged" me on 2 and "undercharged" me on 2. It would be a wash. But, since in all likelyhood, a homeowner is only going to have 1 system installed, they may get the "overcharge" to pay for someone else's "undercharge". It's not a wash to the homeowner that got the "overcharge".

Well, I don't know about you but I have learned you can never please everyone, but if you find out how this is done could you please pass this along? :D

[rivethog]

Well, I don't know about you but I have learned you can never please everyone, but if you find out how this is done could you please pass this along?

"I charge $XX.xx/hr. This is an estimate. It may take a little longer, it may take a little less, I don't use a flat-rate book. You'll be charged for actual time".

[Steve Wiggins]

Arlo a big mistake you are making is the season. Wait till December and then get your prices. Depending on what part of Texas you are from....Central, North, Border Mexico?.....

Can you give us a general location.....county name would help.

[smokin68]

Originally posted by rivethog
"BTW, this is a guy that car saleman go to lunch when they see coming."
And you go into a car dealer and announce to the world "I'll pay sticker price.". Yeah, suuuuuure.


I'll tell you what, we all can figure out how much a car costs a dealership, the wholesale cost + freight + interest charged for it sitting on their lot, and a 3 % holdback. Let me know when someone sells you a car for $100 over that amount, as I'll fly out there ASAP to buy a vehicle, 'cause they won't stay in business long. Same thing with HVAC equipment. Contractors don't go to the supply house and ask what they paid for the equipment. The bottom line is the final cost of the complete installation. And no consumer is ever going to be able to judge the quality of the install by breaking down bid figures. The only thing they need to know is the final cost, period. Same thing with buying a car. I'll give this new one for wholesale and give you squat for your perfect tradein.

[arlobiggs]

"BTW, this is a guy that car saleman go to lunch when they see coming."

Actually, you are correct. I get the "new guy" salesman, and it is usually a learning experience for him. You can rag on me about that, but if you were my neighbor, you would come get me to come along with you to see new cars, partner. Happens all the time, and I don't mind. I'm retired, remember, and wake up each morning with a smile on my face. What a life. What a country.

[Mr Bill]

Wouldn't it be a boring world if we all priced the same? I price the way I do because it works for us and has for 20 years, if you or anyone else want to price your way hey you have my Blessings and if I were your customer and like it I would go with you and if not I would look around. Another thing about flat rate pricing it weeds out the price shoppers really fast! I don't know about you but I am not retired yet so my time is still real valuable. I try and run my business as efficient as possible, and yes I will lose some jobs who cares, I can't do them all anyway but I will get a few also, and if we can just earn a good honest living and continue to have happy customers and keep a little food in the pantry and a roof over our head until I go to my mansion in the sky hey I am content with that.

[butneway]

I work in a technical trade, and although it is not HVAC the desired end result to any business owner is a certain amount of proffit for a given job. Getting to that desired proffit is, among other things the techs wages, insurance, vehicles and all of the other 20 or 30 items that can be listed as overhead. All of us consumers understand this. The company I worked for as very happy after all of this with a 12% proffit margin, and the rates they charged reflected that. When we were bought by a larger company the minimum 22% margin required with 28% desired. Nothing had changed overnight except the hats we were wearing and the rates we had to charge. The techs were all the same and the customers were the same, etc.

Does the customer get a better job now because of the new owners business plan and higher rates? NO

My point is that just because it is more expensive does not mean it is going to be better, it might just be more expensive.

I recently had 4 quotes for a new heat pump / AH install. There was almost $4k in range of quotes for similar equipment. I did not go with the low bid and I did not go with the high bid, I did some research on the mid bid company, straightned out some questions with the proposal and am very happy with what I got. I have already however recommended both the people I used as well as the high bid company to a friend as I think both woudl be a great choice. I think the high bidder in this instance was most likely the most qualified I spoke with, but the increase in price combined with the great refrences from neighbors regarding the other company didn't warrant the extra cost.

This site is a great resource to us non-pros to ask question or research similar questions, however some of the pros on the site seem to think that whatever they say regarding a job or a price is the gospel.

I find it very hard to believe that any of them do not compare prices on anything they buy, be it a can of corn, a roofing job or a new truck. If the sales men of any of these products told you the breakdown of cost was none of your business, and you just said OK do it, then you are an uninformed fool. There is a saying about a fool and his money.

Even a flat rate job on a vehicle is broken down into parts, labor, disposal, shop supplies, etc.

If your rates or equpiment costs are higher and someone asks what they are or why, you should be able with good concience to explain and show them why and still get the
work, instead of hiding from the questions and getting mad about it. For example, I paid $8k more for my siding job than a neighbor, because the research showed it was worth it, not because the sales man told me I asked too many questions, but because he was open and honest with all of his pricing and products.

HVAC companies have the market cornered (rightfully so, most of us don't want or shouldn't be doing the work ourselves) but I see no good reason to not be transparent with pricing when asked.

My 2 cents, I suppose the bashing will now begin. However thanks to all for all of your help thus far with my questions posted.

[Edited by butneway on 08-27-2006 at 12:22 PM]

[rivethog]

I'll tell you what, we all can figure out how much a car costs a dealership, the wholesale cost + freight + interest charged for it sitting on their lot, and a 3 % holdback. Same thing with HVAC equipment.
Since you say it's the same with HVAC equipment, where can someone find ANY of that info (wholesale cost,freight,interest charged for it sitting on their lot, holdback) for HVAC equipment?

And no consumer is ever going to be able to judge the quality of the install by breaking down bid figures.
If company #1 bids 20hrs.@$75/hr and takes 20hrs to do the install, and company #2 bids 10hrs@$150/hr and takes 10hrs to do the install, which company do you think is going to do the better install?


Same thing with buying a car. I'll give this new one for wholesale and give you squat for your perfect tradein.
I've never heard of an HVAC giving anything for "trade-ins". What do you do with them, sell them as new units to an unsuspecting homeowner telling them "The only thing you need to know is the final cost, period".?

[arlobiggs]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
Arlo a big mistake you are making is the season. Wait till December and then get your prices. Depending on what part of Texas you are from....Central, North, Border Mexico?.....

Can you give us a general location.....county name would help. [/QUOTE

I'm from North Texas, up on the OK border. And, in the middle of such a long stretch of 100 degree temps, not the best time to be shopping for replacement units. And, I don't know what my price is yet! That's why I came here. Old unit works great, just uses more electricity. A Seer 8 or 9, or something like that. 16 years old. My intention was never to ruffle feathers. I'm a nice guy. I'm sure learning a lot about pricing, tho. And being a target! That's ok, tho. I've been a target before (Vietnam, Republic of). No cherry there :). Thanks.]

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by butneway
My 2 cents, I suppose the bashing will now begin.

butneway, no bashing from me I understand your post totally, but I personally am not trying to hide anything I run my business the way I do because "It Works" best for us I am not going to get into the politics of the way others price and I don't like to be stereotyped, bottom line our pricing works for us and we have a very good business and many,many happy customers do you personally see any reason we should change now? I am all ears. :D

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by arlobiggs
I'm a nice guy.

And you have shown that! but hey your a Texan what do you expect were all nice guys. :D

[willb]

The problem is not with the installers. Hell I can hire just about any installer that works for a contractor in the evenings and that is all that Arlo needs. The problem is why should Arlo have to pay a premium for a HVAC unit on top of the installation cost, which in my example was about $3000?

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by willb

The problem is why should Arlo have to pay a premium for a HVAC unit on top of the installation cost, which in my example was about $3000?

Am I totally nuts here? read "my" posts we flat rate that includes the unit and the labor "drive out" I don't know how to make it any simpler. http://www.MyOnlineImages.com/Members/mrbillpro/images/dunno.gif

[butneway]

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by butneway
My 2 cents, I suppose the bashing will now begin.

butneway, no bashing from me I understand your post totally, but I personally am not trying to hide anything I run my business the way I do because "It Works" best for us I am not going to get into the politics of the way others price and I don't like to be stereotyped, bottom line our pricing works for us and we have a very good business and many,many happy customers do you personally see any reason we should change now? I am all ears. :D

Absolutely not! If it works for you, by all means do it. I'm a huge believer in free market, and informed consumerism. If a customer doesn't ask for the breakdown, don't give one. I guess my point was that if they did ask, I don't understand the issue with providing one. If any contractor didn't provide at least a reasonabel answer to any question we might ask, I'd feel as though something was being hidden and would summarilly pass on his proposal and pass the word on to any one who asked.

[rivethog]

....do you personally see any reason we should change now?
As long as it's working now, no reason to change. But, what happens when there is a downturn in business? Kind of like Harley-Davidson. Many dealers were selling for $2k-$5k over MSRP when demand outstripped supply for new H-D's. Now, new H-D's are sitting on showroom floors even with incentives and markdowns. The dealers that haven't figured out that H-D's no longer command premium pricing are crying that business is terrible. I have 2 dealers within 30mi of me. One that is still trying to sell for MSRP+, and the other that is selling for MSRP-. The MSRP+ dealer opened right at the beginning of the H-D boom and has always sold at MSRP+. The other dealer has been in business since the 30's and is flexible in his pricing depending on market conditions. Guess which one is selling bikes and hasn't cut back mechanics hrs.? Guess which one has the most "loyal" customers?

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by rivethog
But, what happens when there is a downturn in business?

Well as a good Christian man I will stand on this scripture
Mat 6:34 "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
:D

[rivethog]

I've always liked this cliche
"Those that fail to plan, plan to fail".:D

[arlobiggs]

The orig. post was a no-no. I gave out the units, model numbers and the bid price. I apologize for that. My original suspicion was that the bid was too high. That's still just a suspicion. The feller knew we had used them first, knew the "history" of the units, knew it was lasting well past it's estimated lifetime. I suspected the "he used us before he'll use us again will get only one bid let's make a little money on this one." A business has to make a profit, or they are gone. Then what am I gonna do, if I need them? I'm just trying to sort out what is reasonable profit, what is excessive profit. Bids are supposed to take care of that. I just wanted a little more information. Not your cost. Your price to me, as a breakdown. Units, thermostat, shop materials, labor, tax, title, license. You have to do it for your own book keeping, anyway. Why can't it be on the bid sheet? The response so far seems to be "none of your business", "take it or leave it". What a bummer :) !

[jim baughman]

Originally posted by arlobiggs
I just wanted a little more information. Not your cost. Your price to me, as a breakdown. Units, thermostat, shop materials, labor, tax, title, license. You have to do it for your own book keeping, anyway. Why can't it be on the bid sheet? The response so far seems to be "none of your business", "take it or leave it". What a bummer :) !

Our company gives a price quote with an estimate sheet stating the unit brand and numbers, the included materials such as thermostat, wiring, pad, and everything else needed to complete the job. The job is then given a flat rate price that you have in writting with all that is included with this price. Also, this includes a full 1 year warranty from us for anything. you pay nothing for anything that happens...if you buy online, you have to pay someone to change that part that is under warranty when it fails. Also, if something happens along the install that delays the crew for hours....you pay no more money. If that were a labor hourly rate..it would cost you for that unseen time. I think that is about as fair as you could possibly ask for from anyone. Customer satisfaction keeps companies, like ours, in business. But no matter how you price it out, or how much you pay for it, installation is probably the most important factor....pay for a good quality install from someone that has a good record. The equipment is the same.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by arlobiggs
What a bummer :) !

Yea life can be that way sometimes. :D

[rickboggs]

Do you install Goodman, Rudd? Have you had a good experience with their eqpt, Rick?

Our main equipment is Ruud. We do install Goodman from time to time. Both are popular in our area (so parts are readily available). Trane, American Standard, Lennox and Carrier, you have to go to the next state to get parts, you break, you're dead in the water.

Your first post sounds like you want a complete change out and the price quoted is not bad.

We flate rate also, the install comes as a systems package. If I or my estimator says you need a bigger return air or maybe some curved blade grilles or ductwork, if the home owner objects to any part of the system we turn down the job.

My reasoning is this, I know from many years of knocks on the head what it take to install this "system". I rather have one customer brag on my company (Talking Phonebook) because they now save half on the utility bill and it's soooo comfy, than ten installs with me knowing what could have been and the home owner not know what they just missed.

Economic down turns... home building has slowed way down in my area and we are busy. I told my guys just last week... we're not busy by accident... it's by design, we do the job right because it's right to do it right and our customers know it. We can't keep up.

Pricing, I price my jobs and do not negotiate. Years ago, I had a building contractor ask me to price out a new home, I said, "$2250.00". He said, "How about $2200" Then I said, "How'bout $2300.00!" He said,"Ok, $2250.00."

I changed out a compressor years ago...$300.00. The lady had a fit, "You were only here an hour", she said, "I want an itemized bill." I itemized, it came to $400.00... she paid me $300.00... uh!

Enough! My mind is wondering!... it's lost!!! I lost my mind!!!


[Edited by rickboggs on 08-27-2006 at 03:29 PM]

[hvac hero]

Most of the homeowners that come in here are really cool & are looking for advice. I dont mind helping them a bit.

But Arlo, your like a recent poster named DanglerB. That guy drove everybody crazy. He was so irritating, that we all pitied the company that ended up doing his work. Your gonna be the same way. You need to quit worrying about someone making too much off of you. They will earn every penny.

Funny thing about DanglerB is he decided to stick around the residential section for a long time & give advice just like a pro. A lot of his advice sucked the big one but he sure gave it freely.

Thank God neither of yall live in Memphis.

[arlobiggs]

"Thank God neither of yall live in Memphis."

And thank God this thread is over. Sheeesh!

[jrbenny]

Yep, it sure is over. Unfortunately, I didn't read the complete thread earlier.



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