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James 3528
08-22-2006, 09:43 AM
Stuart Middle School teacher burns U.S. flags in class
Lesson causes uproar in Jefferson

By Chris Kenning
ckenning@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal



A Stuart Middle School teacher has been removed from the classroom after he burned two American flags in class during a lesson on freedom of speech, Jefferson County Public Schools officials said.

Dan Holden, who teaches seventh-grade social studies, burned small flags in two different classes Friday and asked students to write an opinion paper about it, district spokeswoman Lauren Roberts said.


A teacher in the school district since 1979, Holden has been temporarily reassigned to non-instructional duties pending a district investigation. The district also alerted city fire officials, who are conducting their own investigation.

"Certainly we're concerned about the safety aspect," Roberts said, along with "the judgment of using that type of demonstration in a class."

Pat Summers, whose daughter was in Holden's class, said he was among more than 20 parents upset about the incident at school yesterday. Holden apparently told the students to ask their parents what they thought about the lesson, he said.

"She said, 'Our teacher burned a flag.' I'm like, 'What?' " Summers said. "When I was (at the school) at 8 a.m., the lobby was filled with probably 25 or 30 parents" who were upset, he said.

Holden could not be reached yesterday for comment.

Roberts said the flag burning did not appear to be politically motivated, based on an interview with Holden.

Summers said no advance notice had been given to parents, nor were school administrators aware of Holden's plans, Roberts said.

Stuart sixth-grader Kelsey Adwell, 11, said students were abuzz about the incident yesterday.

"They just can't believe that a teacher would do that -- burn two American flags in front of the class," she said. "A teacher shouldn't do that, even though it was an example."

Kentucky has a statute last amended in 1992 making desecration of a national or state flag in a public place a misdemeanor, but the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that flag desecration is protected speech.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky said the federal ruling would trump the state statute.

Congress has tried unsuccessfully to prohibit flag burning with a constitutional amendment. The latest attempt failed in the Senate this year.

Beth Wilson, director of Kentucky's ACLU, said the district is allowed to decide what's instructionally appropriate.

But "if a school is masking their objections to flag burning under the guise of safety, it raises questions about freedom of speech and academic freedom," she said. She said her group would monitor the case but did not plan to get involved at this point.

Regardless, school board member Pat O'Leary said the flag burning was unnecessary and could have offended some students, including those in military families.

"A teacher doesn't do that," he said. "It's just disrespectful."

Rebecca Creech, a Stuart sixth-grader, said she also thought it was "wrong."

Ginny Adwell, Kelsey's mother and the school's PTA president, said some parents who called for Holden to be fired were "going a little bit overboard" and should remember that the teacher was trying to provoke thought.

Brent McKim, president of the Jefferson County Teachers Association, said Holden has "been teaching for many years, and has by all accounts a good teaching record. It was not a political statement and was meant to illustrate a controversial issue. To fire someone because of that would be inappropriate," he said. "It wasn't like he was taking one side or another."

McKim said he was gathering facts that would determine whether the district was justified in removing Holden from the classroom.

In 2001, a teacher in Sacramento, Calif., faced suspension for using a lighter to singe a corner of an American flag in class.

The teacher later was fired, but district officials cited numerous acts of poor judgment and disregard for superiors.

bobby7388
08-22-2006, 01:37 PM
I'd fire his arse for violating numerous fire codes and putting the children in danger.
Let's see the ACLU fight that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

joey791
08-22-2006, 07:57 PM
Thats the ACLU for you

if a teacher says anything about intellegent design, there breaking down the front door of the school

a teacher burns a flag and its freedom of speech

If your a Christian and love your country the ACLU hates you

Personally I believe they should have sent the classes and the teacher in the gym and invite a couple veterans to have a "talk" with the teacher if you catch my drift.

But, what can you say, we cant even get the politicians that supposedly "represent" us to protect the flag.

sline-dawg
08-22-2006, 09:33 PM
Lets see what the little minds of mush think about that...... Or is that not what this was about????

chillbilly
08-22-2006, 09:37 PM
An act of reckless disregard and gross negligence.
He should be fined, suspended for a time without pay and ordered to do community service at his local Fire Station.

His lesson could have been taught in a safer, more tolerant fashion.

sline-dawg
08-22-2006, 09:50 PM
of a little free thought are you heir chill ????



I bet most of those kids did not like that display.


How many alarms was this inferno that endangered those innocent children ??


Make every one write their paper and then look and see what might be done different. Could be parental involvement is lacking....Hmmmmm.

James 3528
08-22-2006, 10:03 PM
Sline

Have you smoked a lot of dope? I mean in your life. Not since sun down.

chillbilly
08-22-2006, 10:06 PM
How many alarms was this inferno that endangered those innocent children ??
__________________________________________________ ________
An unsafe act doesn't have to end in tragedy to be prosecuted.

Any moron who would condone setting a fire(s) inside a structure with kids present, no less, is a ....well....I think you get the picture of irresponsibility, don't you?



I bet most of those kids did not like that display.
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The kids response to reckless endangerment is irrelevant.
I'd be more concerned with the response of the authorites if I was this clown.




Make every one write their paper and then look and see what might be done different.
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Nah, just make the "teacher" pick up trash and wipe down the fire trucks at the fire house for about 40 hours.
Maybe he'll learn the real "lesson" of responsibility for actions.



Could be parental involvement is lacking....Hmmmmm.
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Yeah, that's the ticket...let's blame the parents who are not present during school hours for the deficiency.

Priceless.

sline-dawg
08-22-2006, 10:28 PM
Let's not buck the STATUS QUO.




And I do not smoke dope..... unless you are sharing.



And, I doubt you have anything decent.

Free minds are dangerous to your world , aren't they?

chillbilly
08-22-2006, 10:38 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sline-dawg

Let's not buck the STATUS QUO.
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Yeah, um hmmmm bro. You advocate breaking the law and confuse it with going against popular thinking.




And I do not smoke dope..... unless you are sharing.
And, I doubt you have anything decent.
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Maybe you're confused because of the dope, son.
Go to rehab or find a hobby...it'll clear your mind and possibly allow you to impart some coherent thought processes.



Free minds are dangerous to your world , aren't they?
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You're a dope...no pun intended.
What does free thinking have to do with blatant disregard for safety and structure? You better stop smoking that dank son. It's so high school.

sline-dawg
08-22-2006, 10:43 PM
The laws broken by this teacher.

chillbilly
08-22-2006, 10:58 PM
You work in the HVAC trade and you don't understand codes and laws that prohibit open flame in a structure and the limitations where it is allowed?
In a classroom full of kids?
You don't have to be Perry Mason to note the obvious.

If you're intent on making it a free speech thing, you should at least be sensible enough to understand that free speech demonstration has it's limits, especially when it comes to physical safety and common sense responsibilities.
DUH

sline-dawg
08-22-2006, 11:13 PM
Admit it...... you've lost the terrorists battle..... wiener.

Go home and pray someone will save you.

bootlen
08-22-2006, 11:17 PM
Ya answer a lib's question correctly and he calls ya names. No wonder their parents want to abort them.

chillbilly
08-22-2006, 11:42 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sline-dawg

Admit it...... you've lost the terrorists battle..... wiener.
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I got your weiner.....hangin'.....bro.




Go home and pray someone will save you.
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Already saved. Go home and smoke another fatty.....


It'll help you evolve out of adolescence.

sline-dawg
08-22-2006, 11:52 PM
You guys are so profound....... may I someday kiss your feet?



Freaking clueless

chillbilly
08-22-2006, 11:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sline-dawg

You guys are so profound.......
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And you are so dumbfound ed.



may I someday kiss your feet?
-----------------------------------------------------------
No you may not.



Freaking clueless
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What's matter slime....lose your stash?

sline-dawg
08-23-2006, 12:12 AM
Can't qoute any scriputes without your book.....



I will type slow so you can figure this out.....






[Edited by sline-dawg on 08-23-2006 at 07:21 AM]

chillbilly
08-23-2006, 12:22 AM
Back at ya kid.

sline-dawg
08-23-2006, 12:40 AM
your kid, bro.


I assume it's fine with you to impugn everyone who does not have the same views as God gave you.....Perhaps you are mistaken there. God did not give you those ..... YOU did....

And you ain't no God.

Let me deal with that at a later date..... till then.....

You need major practice before the preaching.

chillbilly
08-23-2006, 12:49 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sline-dawg

your kid, bro.
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You post like a punk...you're not one?




I assume it's fine with you to impugn everyone who does not have the same views as God gave you.....Perhaps you are mistaken there. God did not give you those ..... YOU did....
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It's fine for me to attack anyone who attacks me. Don't lose your gut now sonny. You want to attack....I'll respond in kind. I don't give a fig what your views are but if you attack mine, don't expect liberal left speak from me.








And you ain't no God.
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How long did it take you to come up with that one?




Let me deal with that at a later date..... till then.....
__________________________________________________ _______
Deal with it whenever you'd like. Dealing with anything must be a major task for you. I can see why you'd want to put it off till later.


You need major practice before the preaching.
__________________________________________________ _______
You need major preaching before practice....on second thought, there's always the stash.
__________________________________________________ _______

sline-dawg
08-23-2006, 12:58 AM
I'll bring my stash over and we'll "hash" it out.

chillbilly
08-23-2006, 01:11 AM
LOL!

I dunno'....I might go to hell for smoking that good herb that comes from God's green Earth.

It has to be at least 12% or it's a waste of time.

markwolf
08-23-2006, 02:40 AM
The fire safety issues aside,I put my life on line to protect that flag as did my father & many others.I consider it desecration of a grave for all the brave men that fought & died for this country.I promise if you burned a flag in front of me you would be eating your own teeth.I suppose I should ask the question.How would you feel if I toppled your mothers or fathers grave stone etc????I am not alone in feeling that this is disrespectful to the men that fought & died so you can run your mouth & act like an a$$.Reguardless of how you feel about your government at least have the decency to respect what was done by these men for the sake of the flag & what it stands for.If you have no honor I can understand,it is a problem running rampant in our society!

oloenneker
08-23-2006, 03:46 AM
Reguardless of how you feel about your government at least have the decency to respect what was done by these men for the sake of the flag & what it stands for

Actually, I don't think he was doing it because of a political objective, but rather to demonstrate a point of view, that is very controversial to his students, so that they would be inspired to produce written essays about the subject. At least that is what I have read about the story.

Once in high school, we where shown a film where a man, who wore a nazi armband, and preaced from "Mein Kampf" out side a Synagouge (sp), and a person wearing a yamaulke (sp) punched the nazi in the face. The police arrived and the film cut. We where asked to write an essay on what the police officer was to do and who he was supposed to take to jail, and why.

I know, it's not as offensive as burning a flag, but the desired impact is the same. Not that I think that burning the flag in front of studens was the wisest thing, I understand the impact he was trying to make, and desire to inspire his students into some real heartfelt writing on the subject.

Should he be fired? Thats for the School board to decide, not us.

chillbilly
08-23-2006, 09:53 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by markwolf The fire safety issues aside,I put my life on line to protect that flag as did my father & many others.I consider it desecration of a grave for all the brave men that fought & died for this country.I promise if you burned a flag in front of me you would be eating your own teeth.I suppose I should ask the question.How would you feel if I toppled your mothers or fathers grave stone etc????I am not alone in feeling that this is disrespectful to the men that fought & died so you can run your mouth & act like an a$$.Reguardless of how you feel about your government at least have the decency to respect what was done by these men for the sake of the flag & what it stands for.If you have no honor I can understand,it is a problem running rampant in our society!
__________________________________________________ _______

Amen! I hope they can fire his sorry a$$ even if they have to play the endangerment card to do it.

I understand the lesson he was trying to impart but that lesson could have been taught differently.

Interpretation of rules and laws should have certain limits or guidelines. I see no infringement on rights of free expression with certain guidelines in place.

Flag desecration should be prosecuted with a one month immersion course in U.S. History as part of any punishment handed down.

oloenneker
08-23-2006, 10:02 PM
Flag desecration should be prosecuted with a one month immersion course in U.S. History as part of any punishment handed down.

Perhaps that is what drives some American people to burn the flag in the first place. They allready know the history and are disgusted by what is going on now, or vice versa...



Rarely is it the uinformed American who burns flags in protest. Now for over in the ME, thats different.