Should AC repair guy have checked for leaks before refilling unit?

[peter j.]

Four weeks ago my centeral air condition unit stopped blowing cold air and the evaporator coil was frosting up. After two weeks of waiting a service guy came to the house. He said he had to put 3lbs of R22 into the system and charged me $$$. I asked if he had found any leaks and he kind of himmed and hawwed and said that it could take 3-4 hours to find a leak so he didn't look for any leaks. He then said something about schroder valves leaking out during the winter. Not sure what he meant. I wasn't home so I just spoke to him on the phone, but my wife said he never came into the house. He just had her turn it on to see if it was blowing cold air. He said if it leaked out it was time for a new AC unit because R22 is getting expensive.
Two questions I have is should the guy have looked for a leak and is it really hard to find a leak such that it would take 3-4 hours? The unit is a carrier and I think it's a 2 or 3 ton unit. On the manufacture tag it says that if was filled with 3.8 lbs of R22 at factory. My home is 1100 sq ft. so it's sized for that size dwelling.
Secondly, I've noticed that the air doesn't seem as cold. And the big copper line isn't nearly as cold as it was after it was first fixed. initially that line was really cold and water was condensing on it both outside and inside the house. Now the line is just kinda cool. Does this mean my Freon is leaking out? I checked the evaporator coil and it's not frosted up.
I appreciate any help. If I get a new unit I want to know that I can trust the contractor I had fill my system. He gave me a quote of $$$ for a new unit.

[jpsmith1cm]

peter j.

First, Pricing isn't permitted by site rules. I edited your post for you.

Second, you probably have a leak. 3-4 hours seems a bit much to me to find a leak on a typical residential system. If that time frame included locating and repairing the leak, it is more reasonable.

[BaldLoonie]

We have customers who need refrigerant sign a form saying what they want.

Leak repair
Sales call for new
Just fill it up

Most leak searches are under an hour easy. With a Carrier we head first for the indoor coil. Actually, most brands that's where we find the leak.

[jpsmith1cm]

sir fix alot

This is the Ask Our Pro's forum. In order to post a response here, you must have verified qualifications and have been approved by the AOP Committee. You may ask a question by starting a new thread.

You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=957002).

Additional infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.

Your post has been deleted.

[peter j.]

Well, the guy is my friends brother and he has a one man show heating/cooling business. I called him and said I had a problem. He said he'd stop by and take a look at it when he got a chance. He then called and said he stopped by and filled it with 3lbs and what it cost. He said no additional service charge because he was on his way home and made a quick stop. He had told me that he was really busy with other jobs so I guess that's why he didn't bother going inside and looking for a leak. He almost made it sound like he did me a favor by not looking for a leak becasue it would cost me a lot. Tag on the outside unit says manufacture in 88 so it is pretty old.
Before he serviced it there was ice built up on the small copper line going into the evaporator coil and ice all over the bottom of the coil fins.
I just took off an access panel and I notice there is a small amount of ice on bottom of coil fins. I'm going to let it run and see what happens. It was two weeks ago that he came so maybe the R22 has leaked out enough where it's starting to ice up.

[jpsmith1cm]

Well, the guy is my friends brother and he has a one man show heating/cooling business. I called him and said I had a problem. He said he'd stop by and take a look at it when he got a chance. He then called and said he stopped by and filled it with 3lbs and what it cost. He said no additional service charge because he was on his way home and made a quick stop. He had told me that he was really busy with other jobs so I guess that's why he didn't bother going inside and looking for a leak. He almost made it sound like he did me a favor by not looking for a leak becasue it would cost me a lot. Tag on the outside unit says manufacture in 88 so it is pretty old.
Before he serviced it there was ice built up on the small copper line going into the evaporator coil and ice all over the bottom of the coil fins.
I just took off an access panel and I notice there is a small amount of ice on bottom of coil fins. I'm going to let it run and see what happens. It was two weeks ago that he came so maybe the R22 has leaked out enough where it's starting to ice up.

Ice on the SMALL line could indicate a problem unrelated to a leak.

[Gunslinger]

I guess it may depend on the tech. I spend the time doing a leak search when I have a system freezing up. As mentioned, I also head to the evap coils first. A leak the size you're describing usually does not take that long to find.

[peter j.]

Ice has formed around the smaller of the two copper lines going into A-coil. Took off panel and ice is on the coil. Less than two weeks and it's iceing up. I won't be calling that guy again.
Any suggestions on what to do next? Should I have a different contractor come out to the house and look for the leak and refill system? Not sure how much money I should put into this 1988 unit?

[beenthere]

At 24 years old. probably a good time to think about replacing it.

[timebuilder]

Well, the guy is my friends brother and he has a one man show heating/cooling business. I called him and said I had a problem. He said he'd stop by and take a look at it when he got a chance. He then called and said he stopped by and filled it with 3lbs and what it cost. He said no additional service charge because he was on his way home and made a quick stop. He had told me that he was really busy with other jobs so I guess that's why he didn't bother going inside and looking for a leak. He almost made it sound like he did me a favor by not looking for a leak becasue it would cost me a lot. Tag on the outside unit says manufacture in 88 so it is pretty old.
Before he serviced it there was ice built up on the small copper line going into the evaporator coil and ice all over the bottom of the coil fins.
I just took off an access panel and I notice there is a small amount of ice on bottom of coil fins. I'm going to let it run and see what happens. It was two weeks ago that he came so maybe the R22 has leaked out enough where it's starting to ice up.


From what you described, he gave you a low-price quick fix to get you out of trouble.

The full tilt visit might have included a trip charge, leak check and repair charge, inspection of the components time, and most contractors would ask if you want a new system if your was made in 1988.

It's one of those situations where you go what you paid for.

[timebuilder]

Ice has formed around the smaller of the two copper lines going into A-coil. Took off panel and ice is on the coil. Less than two weeks and it's iceing up. I won't be calling that guy again.
Any suggestions on what to do next? Should I have a different contractor come out to the house and look for the leak and refill system? Not sure how much money I should put into this 1988 unit?

I wouldn't.

Get referrals from friends who like the HVAC contractor they have used. Get a heat load calculation done for your home, and have the ductwork checked to be certain it can carry the needed air to each space.

The government has been pushing consumers into a new refrigerant for a few years now, and manufacturers are happily pumping out the units that use the new refrigerant from their factories, few of which are in the USA.

You may get more efficiency, if all of the variables are correct.

[peter j.]

I just didn't get what I expected in service. If I would have actually got to talk to the contractor before he filled the unit I would have said to find the leak and if it's not too expensive, then fix it and refill it. That he never bothered looking for a leak irritates me. I don't know if finding the leak would have cost me as much as the refill ,but at least I would know where the leak was.

[beshvac]

I just didn't get what I expected in service. If I would have actually got to talk to the contractor before he filled the unit I would have said to find the leak and if it's not too expensive, then fix it and refill it. That he never bothered looking for a leak irritates me. I don't know if finding the leak would have cost me as much as the refill ,but at least I would know where the leak was.

On a unit built in 88, I am not going to waste my time and your money looking for the leak. :.02:

[timebuilder]

Well, the guy is my friends brother and he has a one man show heating/cooling business. I called him and said I had a problem. He said he'd stop by and take a look at it when he got a chance. He then called and said he stopped by and filled it with 3lbs and what it cost. He said no additional service charge because he was on his way home and made a quick stop. He had told me that he was really busy with other jobs so I guess that's why he didn't bother going inside and looking for a leak. He almost made it sound like he did me a favor by not looking for a leak becasue it would cost me a lot. .

My sense is that the personal dynamics of the situation suggested to him that the course of action he took was the course that you were expecting. This is the dynamic of the "friend's brother."

I am certain that he believed he was doing you a favor, because you were using the "friend's brother" card.

Get a referral.

Get a load calc and duct check.

Get a quote on a new system.

Happy ending.

[beenthere]

Stohr, this is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise here. Please apply to the AOPC today, thank you.

You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=957002).


Further infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.

[tinner73]

Ice has formed around the smaller of the two copper lines going into A-coil. Took off panel and ice is on the coil. Less than two weeks and it's iceing up. I won't be calling that guy again.
Any suggestions on what to do next? Should I have a different contractor come out to the house and look for the leak and refill system? Not sure how much money I should put into this 1988 unit?

1.) fill out your profile. maybe somebody on the board can help you.

2.) put $0 into a 24 year old set up. you got your $$$$ worth out of it.

[peter j.]

I didn't pay 0$. I payed full price for 3lbs of R22. And I wasn't playing the "friend card". I expect to pay full price just like everybody else. I do believe he thought he was doing me a favor, but for 2 weeks of AC for what I payed isn't a bargain. I didn't realize that finding a leak in an AC unit was like finding a needle in a haystack. I appreciate the advice and comments.

[jpsmith1cm]

I didn't realize that finding a leak in an AC unit was like finding a needle in a haystack.

It isn't.

Most refrigerant leaks are pretty easy to find. A skilled tech could have a very good idea of what is leaking in less than 10 minutes in 99.9% of scenarios.

[peter j.]

It isn't.

Most refrigerant leaks are pretty easy to find. A skilled tech could have a very good idea of what is leaking in less than 10 minutes in 99.9% of scenarios.

Thank you. That's was one of the main things I wanted to hear. The guy should have looked for the leak before he went and filled the system. He didn't do me any favors as some others have suggested.

[catmanacman]

When we are slammed with service calls we do not do leak searches unless it is almost empty we gas it up and we recommend returning and doing a leak search, write the recommendation and price you accept or decline .if you accept it the office puts it on the schedule

[tinner73]

you misunderstood me.

i wouldn't put anymore money into a system that old. time to get a new one.

[smoke]

Perfect example how he didn't take care of the homeowner by assuming the quick fix would suffice.

[peter j.]

I don't understand why a Fill without a leak check would ever be a good policy? The tag on my system says factory filled with 3.8lbs of R22. The contractor billed me for 3 lbs. Does a professional know how low a system is before they fill it? Or is it one of those deals where you don't know how low it is until you fill it? If R22 was cheap I'd say fill it and see what happens, but for the price of R22 that's not a very good gamble on my end.
Anyways, I guess I'm more belly acheing than anything at this point. I appreciate the advice and it will guide me in future dealings with HVAC professionals.

[beshvac]

I don't understand why a Fill without a leak check would ever be a good policy? The tag on my system says factory filled with 3.8lbs of R22. The contractor billed me for 3 lbs. Does a professional know how low a system is before they fill it? Or is it one of those deals where you don't know how low it is until you fill it? If R22 was cheap I'd say fill it and see what happens, but for the price of R22 that's not a very good gamble on my end.
Anyways, I guess I'm more belly acheing than anything at this point. I appreciate the advice and it will guide me in future dealings with HVAC professionals.

Didn't you read my post? I am not going to look for a leak on a unit from 88-it's a waste of money for you.....

[turkey]

Personally I would get him to quote a new system and see if he will knock a few bucks off for the 22 he put in and charged you for, he probably thought he was doing you a favor and might work with you to keep you a happy customer.

[timebuilder]

Thank you. That's was one of the main things I wanted to hear. The guy should have looked for the leak before he went and filled the system. He didn't do me any favors as some others have suggested.


Except for one thing.

You were a "favor," and not a regular customer.

Don't be obtuse. It was as obvious a favor as the nose on Jimmy Durante.

He got you cooling. He did not try to sell you additional services. You got off cheap. Stop complaining about a favor that he is no doubt already sorry he provided to you....

Okay, that sounds a little harsh, but I think you get the idea, right? :putergreet:

[timebuilder]

It isn't.

Most refrigerant leaks are pretty easy to find. A skilled tech could have a very good idea of what is leaking in less than 10 minutes in 99.9% of scenarios.

You mean ten minutes with the HO there to provide entry, with all your tools you need already there, after the trip charge, and the explanation of services being offered, right? :angel:

[jpsmith1cm]

You mean ten minutes with the HO there to provide entry, with all your tools you need already there, after the trip charge, and the explanation of services being offered, right? :angel:

Why would I be looking for a leak if I hadn't already gained access to the unit and determined that it was truly low on charge?

[beenthere]

Why would I be looking for a leak if I hadn't already gained access to the unit and determined that it was truly low on charge?

Ahh, you had 10 minutes you wan ted to kill. LOL

[timebuilder]

Why would I be looking for a leak if I hadn't already gained access to the unit and determined that it was truly low on charge?

That's my point. The tech in question was doing a drive by on his way home to help out his friend's brother. He wasn't there for a service visit, where he would be accessing all parts of them system. From what we know, this is the level of service the OP wanted, and was what he got.

If he wanted what you or I would have done, he would have gotten a place on the schedule, right?

[beshvac]

Why would I be looking for a leak if I hadn't already gained access to the unit and determined that it was truly low on charge?

Which part of the split system??? Did you have to crawl to the back of a crawlspace to look at it?....did you have to drag your tools back there?....What are the access limitations the OP's system has?...have to remove a flue pipe to get the cover off the coil???? Dude, you got a bad habit of floating some un-thought thru theory to homeowners.

Do you mainly work on package units where everything is RIGHT THERE???


That's my point. The tech in question was doing a drive by on his way home to help out his friend's brother. He wasn't there for a service visit, where he would be accessing all parts of them system. From what we know, this is the level of service the OP wanted, and was what he got.

If he wanted what you or I would have done, he would have gotten a place on the schedule, right?

:ditto:

[catmanacman]

The situation is there are a lot of people that get refrigerant every year they call for a gas up and it gets them through summer and they do not want any other service ,its possible the tech thought that was the case .a call to him would clear things up. Now that r22 as tripled in price the dinamics are changing

[peter j.]

Personally I would get him to quote a new system and see if he will knock a few bucks off for the 22 he put in and charged you for, he probably thought he was doing you a favor and might work with you to keep you a happy customer.

He did give me a quote over the phone when I talked to him after the fill and it did sound like a very reasonable price. However, I have no idea what brand, model, etc the price quote was for.

[peter j.]

That's my point. The tech in question was doing a drive by on his way home to help out his friend's brother. He wasn't there for a service visit, where he would be accessing all parts of them system. From what we know, this is the level of service the OP wanted, and was what he got.

If he wanted what you or I would have done, he would have gotten a place on the schedule, right?

When I left him the voice mail about looking at my system I told him what it was doing (iced up coil, no cold air) and asked if he could look at it. I wrongly assumed he would show up look for a leak, find it, fix it if it was worth fixing it , and then fill it. If he didn't have time for that I would have preffered he just tell me he was too busy. I would have called one of a dozen other HVAC contractors in town. Instead he stopped by and in 10 minutes put in 3lbs of R22. I've seen whole sale prices for a 30lb tank of of R22 so I know there is a double/triple mark-up to the consumer...which is fine. So, lets not pretend that some great favor was done for me. I payed full price. If I could make that much money in 10 minutes I'd be happy as a clam. :grin2:

[timebuilder]

When I left him the voice mail about looking at my system I told him what it was doing (iced up coil, no cold air) and asked if he could look at it. I wrongly assumed he would show up look for a leak, find it, fix it if it was worth fixing it , and then fill it. If he didn't have time for that I would have preffered he just tell me he was too busy. I would have called one of a dozen other HVAC contractors in town. Instead he stopped by and in 10 minutes put in 3lbs of R22. I've seen whole sale prices for a 30lb tank of of R22 so I know there is a double/triple mark-up to the consumer...which is fine. So, lets not pretend that some great favor was done for me. I payed full price. If I could make that much money in 10 minutes I'd be happy as a clam. :grin2:

Here is what "full price" usually means:

You ask to be put on a schedule for a service visit. If the company is very busy, this may take a few days. The reaction of most folks to the "few days" part is to ask "can you just get me some cooling until then?"

Now, since this dynamic is based on a relationship other than a standard service call, this guy was no doubt anticipating the "can you just get me some cooling?" part.

Full price would have included a trip charge from most companies. That helps cover rising gas prices, insurance, registration, etc. In other words, the costs associated with making that truck appear at your home. Because this was a "stop by on the way home," you didn't pay that charge.

So, instead of waiting on the service schedule of whomever you called, this guy responded in a relational manner, skipped the trip charge (which in may areas is significant) and got you running, on his way home from a busy day. This obviously does not include the time involved in what may be an easy or a difficult diagnosis of your loss of refrigerant.

That, my friend, is what you call a favor.