Getting expensive upgrade

[franc11s]

Have had a couple of service vendors in so far to replace my 13 year old over-worked 4-Tonne RUUD. Live in a ~9000+ sq ft house. This replacement unit is in the ATTIC and I live in Atlanta...

I like bleeding edge tech (and I am in IT) but sometimes that makes me overthink. I live right on the River hooch and was hoping GEO might work here but to be honest, I'm over the complexity of that now!

Anyway, I like to concept of the Carrier GreenSpeed. Seems innovative and like the rest, 10 year Warranty. However, the 20 Seer GreenSpeed is a total investment of $ say the Infinity 18 SEER ($) and then the competitors around the 16-18 seer at about $k

My summer Electric bill is about $800k, Gas total for the year is $2500! I have 3 other RUUDS (ANother 4 Tonne (Main), and 2 x 2 tones divided to basement and mid-floor bedrooms.

The 3rd floor where this unit works the most is mostly unoccupied during the year now the kids have left home but without a steady temperature up there, it effects the main floor as well.

Am I over thinking this. Should I just replace the system with a higher efficiency system but not go over board. Just get a good brand, good warranty, good price and not expect, going with bleeding edge like the Carrier is really going to make a lot of difference. People must be buying the green speeds and I love the tech but....

Thoughts?

[tigerdunes]

Franc

Unless you just want to spend money, I think the GreenSpeed is way overkill for Atlanta location/climate.

Just to be clear, this system is HP with air handler or gas furnace?

I would install a good 15 SEER system with var speed air handler that has a minimum 9 HSPF.

Probably not what you want to hear but that would be the direction I would go. If system will not be used on regular basis, even two stage condenser would be overkill.

I like HPs that have electronic demand defrost and staged backup heat strips.

If you want to throw around some bucks, get the Ext warranty that will cover labor.

IMO

[franc11s]

Thanks TigerDunes. This is the spec of the proposed! Heat Pump is for both heat and cool? ATL, you think pointless then?

Carrier 59MN7A080V17--14
G/F 4WAY COND, INFINITY MODULATING 97-98% AFUE
Carrier CNPVT4821ATA
-Evaporator Coil
-4 Ton
-21 Inches Wide
-Tin Coated
10 Year Parts
1 Year Labor
Carrier Infinity Control
Ideal Humidity System® technology
-TrueSense™ dirty filter detection
-Auto Changeover
-Smart Recovery
-7-day Prog
10 Years on Parts
1 Year Labor


Installation of one new carrier 20 seer 4 Ton Greenspeed Complete system. System includes 98% Modulating gas variable speed furnace, Tin coated coil, Variable speed heat pump, infinity controller, free upgrade when new infinity controller comes out.

[tigerdunes]

Yes, a nice system but overkill for Atlanta. Atlanta has moderate winter climate.

Where will furnace or air handler be located?

Most dealers do not install high eff condensing furnaces in the attic due to freezing possibilities. I realize chance of this in Atlanta is small.

If you are already heating with gas, I probably would stay with gas. Since this zone will not be used on a daily basis, I would recommend an 80% eff two stg var speed furnace with high eff condenser-your choice whether HP or AC. I believe Atlanta has an average winter temp of around 40 degrees. I know it gets colder in bursts down to the teens.

You do want a system though that can handle both high temps and good humidity control.

Then add the Ext warranty. That would be my direction. Save the money for a nice trip and/or gift for spouse and pocket funds for the kids.

IMO

[SkyHeating]

Franc if I were you I would at least consider geothermal if you live on a river. Installing a ground loop in the river can be very cost effective and up to 3.5 times more efficient in cooling mode and double the efficiency in heating. Ground source heat pumps are rated in EER not SEER but the current top of the line WaterFurnace unit is 42 EER while a Trane XL20i heat pump is only 13 EER.

Also if you don't like geothermal due to its complexity I assure you it is the least complex especially when compared to a green speed unit. Geothermal/ground source heat pumps have been around since the early 1940s can't say that about green speed technology! Plus with a federal tax credit that is 30% of the total cost that could be really nIce if you have a 9,000 sq foot home.

[franc11s]

Re the GEO. My house is ~200ft from the river and a lovely (never more than 50 degrees). I pump water from the River for my irrigation system which is why I thought it was a really good idea. The problem is more, finding someone locally that "really" has a clue. That's what I meant about complex; finding someone to trust. I am not sure I can install any loops in the River itself but my guess is, since it's a flowing river, the loop won't have to be too "big" and could be buried in the SILT... But what do I know. Now I'm back to that idea again :) Thoughts on how to find someone reliable.

[motoguy128]

Why not consider just one step down? and a Infinity 17 SEER AC with a 2 stage furnace.

Make sure someone does a load calculation, especially with such a large home. Atlanta isn't as hot as some think. The design temperature is actually 1F lower than where I am in SE Iowa.

Greenspeed is only worth the cost if you have a colder winter and you're all electric or use propane. IT's major advantage is in heating and in moderatly hot weather. In really hot weather, it's no more efficient than a regular 15 SEER AC unit. I believe it's EER is only 13-13.5.

[franc11s]

Tigerdunes, thanks again. Yes, that GreenSpeed, I believe is GAS for heat and Electric for cool. All in the Antic where the current RUUD is going to be replaced. The compressor will be 40 foot below, outside. Apparently, it can use the heat / cool air temp to reduce costs but as you said, here in ATL, overkill.


Yes, a nice system but overkill for Atlanta. Atlanta has moderate winter climate.

Where will furnace or air handler be located?

Most dealers do not install high eff condensing furnaces in the attic due to freezing possibilities. I realize chance of this in Atlanta is small.

If you are already heating with gas, I probably would stay with gas. Since this zone will not be used on a daily basis, I would recommend an 80% eff two stg var speed furnace with high eff condenser-your choice whether HP or AC. I believe Atlanta has an average winter temp of around 40 degrees. I know it gets colder in bursts down to the teens.

You do want a system though that can handle both high temps and good humidity control.

Then add the Ext warranty. That would be my direction. Save the money for a nice trip and/or gift for spouse and pocket funds for the kids.

IMO

[franc11s]

Overall, in Atlanta, the Electric Air con cost in my house is the highest - $900 in summer for about 3 months! Be a little bitter if family remembered to shut doors more often ;)

[franc11s]

Just found this article; http://www.carrier.com/Carrier+Corporate+Sites/Corporate/ci.Carrier+High+Efficiency+Heat+Pump+with+Greenspe ed+Intelligence+Named+One+of+the+Hot+50+Products+o f+2012+by+GreenBuilder+Magazine.printerfriendly

and this statement;

With cooling efficiencies of up to 20.5 SEER and variable-speed compressor technology, this new heat pump is also ideal for superior cooling and dehumidification in regions with warmer temperatures and high humidity.

I understand "sales" pitches - LOL but curious as to whether you guys still believe in Atlanta, this "cooling efficiency" is not relevant and if the "new" GreenSpeed Carrier will have any difference a dent in my Electric Bill. If it saves a $1000 a year, It'll pay back in 5 years and in the next 10, I'll be up $10k ?????

My calculations are for the last summer, my electric bill went up an average of $500 a month for 4-5 months over winter (allowing for lights on in the winter)... I just went to GA power to do the live calcs. I probably only spend an extra $1500 a year on GAS to heat the house in the winter (Total Gas per annum is $2500 with cooking and everything else).

[Cooked]

Overall, in Atlanta, the Electric Air con cost in my house is the highest - $900 in summer for about 3 months! Be a little bitter if family remembered to shut doors more often ;)

Considering the family dynamics and lack of use of your upper floor I'd suggest staying away from the Greenspeed. I think it's waaaaaaay overkill. When you think about it (in your situation) what you're really trying to accomplish is a temperate buffer zone between the upper and lower levels, which I think is smart. If you're feeling the cost squeeze then go I'd go with with a moderate 15 to 16 SEER a/c and standard gas furnace. The auto changeover feature is a plus but programmabilty (7 day) is useless for this application.

My gut feeling is geo is way way waaaaaaay overkill for what you are trying to do.

Oh yeah, you've got to train those other people to close doors.

[catmanacman]

I agree with sky take a look at geo thermal if you get the package unit no outside condensers and you can get your domestic hot water from it also

[franc11s]

Thanks. Are there any serious people in Atlanta that would know what to do with me living near a major river ? That's what I'm struggling with? When I looked, this guys seem to be doing big commercial work, not residential. The "general" service techs are boring me with the same response of "It's too expensive to install in an existing home", "it's not as much saving as you thing"... and yet none of them really have any experience on which to talk!

BTW - You guys on this forum are awesome so thanks for all the input.

[Six]

Have had a couple of service vendors in so far to replace my 13 year old over-worked 4-Tonne RUUD. Live in a ~9000+ sq ft house. This replacement unit is in the ATTIC and I live in Atlanta...

I like bleeding edge tech (and I am in IT) but sometimes that makes me overthink. I live right on the River hooch and was hoping GEO might work here but to be honest, I'm over the complexity of that now!

Anyway, I like to concept of the Carrier GreenSpeed. Seems innovative and like the rest, 10 year Warranty. However, the 20 Seer GreenSpeed is a total investment of $ say the Infinity 18 SEER ($) and then the competitors around the 16-18 seer at about $k

My summer Electric bill is about $800k, Gas total for the year is $2500! I have 3 other RUUDS (ANother 4 Tonne (Main), and 2 x 2 tones divided to basement and mid-floor bedrooms.

The 3rd floor where this unit works the most is mostly unoccupied during the year now the kids have left home but without a steady temperature up there, it effects the main floor as well.

Am I over thinking this. Should I just replace the system with a higher efficiency system but not go over board. Just get a good brand, good warranty, good price and not expect, going with bleeding edge like the Carrier is really going to make a lot of difference. People must be buying the green speeds and I love the tech but....

Thoughts?

Hotlanta !

IMHO Geo is overated. Sure you'll get great effeciency but the cost to install can be over 5 times a comparable high SEER unit conventional.

If you're into the leading edge tech then you know it might be a good isea to steer clear of any new product until te bugs get worked out.


American Standard is a better quality unit than Carrier and has some great high seer units that have been out for a while.

[tigerdunes]

"Atlanta isn't as hot as some think. The design temperature is actually 1F lower than where I am in SE Iowa."

I don't mean to be disagreeable and have never been to Keokuk, Iowa but I do know the South quite well and it does get very hot in Atlanta.

Just for info, It is 105 degrees in Atlanta at the moment.

Carrier's GreenSpeed is a heat pump designed to provide heat in lower temperatures without the need of supplemental heat either electric heat strips or fossil fuel heat source. The market for this type technology is better suited to harsher winter climates than Atlanta and where nat gas is not available.

Weigh the costs and payback. I would rather put my money into an 80% eff two stg var speed furnace with a 16-17 SEER AC or HP condenser.

IMO

[motoguy128]

I was surprised myself. It was 103 here the other day. Been above 96 for a high for the 4th day now.

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/bldrs_lenders_raters/downloads/Outdoor_Design_Conditions_508.pdf

Take a look at parts of Kansas, South Dakota and Nebraska. In some of those area you need a big AC and a big furnace.