Trane XL 16i 5 Ton installed yesterday

[Wabey]

I just had a Trane XL 16i 5 Ton installed yesterday, and I don't think my installer used the right vapor line size. The installation manual says to use 1-1/8 vapor line and I have what I think is a 3/4 inch line. Will this make any difference in performance, efficiency?

Should I ask him to use the correct vapor line size?

Thanks for your reply

[carmon]

1- 1/8 for what length of run..... 10 feet different than 60 ...

[Wabey]

I think it is probably somewhere between 10-15 feet.

Thanks for your help

[carmon]

I would of installed 7/8 ..you will be fine in my opinion

[Wabey]

ok. Thank you. Do you think the smaller line would compromise my new systems ability to cool the house? I paid more $ for a 16 SEER and want to be sure I get what I paid for.

Also, do you know what temperature the air coming into my house should be (about)?

Thanks - you have been very helpful.

[carmon]

your suction line is fine.... you should have between 15 and 18 degrees difference from return to supply.....

[second opinion]

I just had a Trane XL 16i 5 Ton installed yesterday, and I don't think my installer used the right vapor line size. The installation manual says to use 1-1/8 vapor line and I have what I think is a 3/4 inch line. Will this make any difference in performance, efficiency?

Should I ask him to use the correct vapor line size?

Thanks for your reply

Your line size should be 7/8th and 3/8th

with a maximum length of 80 feet and a max vertical lift of 25 feet.

What is the document # that you read 1/1/8th for the suction?

[Wabey]

Its in the Installer's guide (Trane) 18-AC86D1-4 for Condensing units 4TTx6.

Ok. A dumb question...how can I easily measure vapor line diameter (for a newbie)?

THanks

[carmon]

measure the o.d. of the pipe .... callipers come to mind

[beenthere]

Wabey, Made this its own thread. Your not allowed to post in other peoples threads in the AOP forums.

[tinknocker service tech]

to answer the op question
you will lose btu output of the unit i tend to think about 3 to 4 thou but
you eff will be the same for the most part

i would recomend you have them increase the size of the lines to 1 1/8 / 3/8
so you will get the most of your unit when all of its output is needed

[Wabey]

beenthere!

My apologies. I could not find how to post new thread....but everyone has been very helpful! Very

[carmon]

oh man ...... 7/8 is plenty ....where you pulling this info from..... cause it is wrong

[Wabey]

carmon....from the Trane Installer guide that I was given. Here is an online version (see page 6).

http://www.bayareaservice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/XL16i-Installation-Manual.pdf

I read in a post here that experts recommended that owners check diameter when upgrading to new system (Trane XL16i). So just trying to be sure I'm getting it installed correctly. Thanks a bunch

[HVAC/Stud]

Hold the contractor accountable, if Trane engineers say line set should be a certain size, follow their guidance.

If they(Trane) wanted to they could void the compressor warranty if oil return was compromised.

I bet you paid a bundle for a "Trane", have it right.

Plus good on you checking up on them, need more homeowners to get involved in their investment.

STUD

[catmanacman]

I am not seeing any 5 ton 410a systems calling for 1 1/8 suction lines .its is not needed due to the higher velocity

[beenthere]

At 1-1/8" you have a capacity loss of roughly 480 BTUs per 100 foot of line, at 7/8" you have a capacity loss of roughly 1750 BTUs per 100 foot of line. So how long is your line set.

[HVAC/Stud]

Looks like it calls for 1 1/8 suction to me.

Come on guys, the engineers design and we install IAW their instructions.

The HO should have it installed IAW to the manual.

Call Trane you know they will tell you to follow manual.

STUD

[mark beiser]

The service facts show 1 1/8, but except for very long lines, the size recommended by Trane's piping software 7/8.

The capacity loss of a 7/8" vapor line vs a 1 1/8" line is very small with a short line set. The ratings with 1 1/8 are to make the efficiency ratings look as good as possible.
The long term reliability of the system will be better with a 7/8" vapor line due to better oil return.

Another consideration is the cost of installing the 1 1/8" vapor line, vs keeping the 7/8" vapor line.
The money saved from the very slight increase in efficiency will never equal the cost of running the larger line. Not in the lifetime of the new system, or the one that it is eventually replaced with.

[carmon]

7/8 would be my choice.......

[mark beiser]

7/8 would be my choice.......

Yeap, if I was installing everything new, refrigerant lines and all, I'd go with 7/8.

[beenthere]

7/8 will provide much better oil return in first stage then 1-1/8 will. In first stage, velocity is roughly 1220FPM with 7/8. With 1-1/8 its roughly 710FPM.

[Wabey]

Ok...great discussion! So should I ask my installer to upgrade my 3/4 line to a 7/8 line? Will the 7/8 line void my Trane warranty if not run with 1 1/8'' as the installers guide recommends?

By the way, I estimate my line is approximately 15-20 feet in length (give or take 1-2 feet).

[Kerplacknia]

7/8 is fine. If you talk to the trane techs or tech support they would agree. Abnormally long runs may require it, but i would run 7/8 on most standard residential applications

[carmon]

the line you think is 3/4 is probably 7/8 measure the o.d. of the pipe

[mark beiser]

the line you think is 3/4 is probably 7/8 measure the o.d. of the pipe

3/4 is one of the acceptable sizes for a 5 ton R-410A system.
With only 10-15' of pipe, and a few 90º fittings, you are still only looking at a capacity loss of less than 1000 btuh in 2nd stage, likely much less.

First stage, where the unit spends most of its time, will have virtually no capacity loss.

The cost of replacing it would be greater than the potential energy savings.

[HVAC/Stud]

WABEY

Take an adjustable wrench(AKA crescent wrench) slide it over the suction line and then measure the gap. That will tell you the OD of the line.

Your supply air temp should be around 55 degrees. Delta temp between supply and return should be 18 - 20 degrees.

If you are having issues with your install, call the contractor.

Trane dealers should be pro's.

STUD

[second opinion]

Ok...great discussion! So should I ask my installer to upgrade my 3/4 line to a 7/8 line? Will the 7/8 line void my Trane warranty if not run with 1 1/8'' as the installers guide recommends?

By the way, I estimate my line is approximately 15-20 feet in length (give or take 1-2 feet).

That is the most current document, and as Mark stated it was changed from 7/8th to increase the btu output of the unit. I just ran it through the refrigeration program with 25 feet and 4 long turn 90s and there is a btu loss of 745 for 3/4, 370 for 7/8, and 37 for 1/1/8th

[carmon]

fair enough ... whats the velocity on 1-1/8.... 7/8 is my choice......

[second opinion]

fair enough ... whats the velocity on 1-1/8.... 7/8 is my choice......

7/8th would be my choice also, that is what it has been since the inception of the 16I.
The maximum length has been shortened to 60 feet from 80 along with the increase in the suction line to 1/1/8th

[Wabey]

Thanks to all who responded. I certainly feel much more at ease knowing some additional information. One final question, please.

The installer has a "long" PVC pipe outside (next to condensor unit) which is draining water. I estimate it is about 2 1/2 feet in length (above ground). My concern is that my lawn guy will whack it while mowing. Can it be ran underground or internalized somehow?

Thanks again

[second opinion]

Thanks to all who responded. I certainly feel much more at ease knowing some additional information. One final question, please.

The installer has a "long" PVC pipe outside (next to condensor unit) which is draining water. I estimate it is about 2 1/2 feet in length (above ground). My concern is that my lawn guy will whack it while mowing. Can it be ran underground or internalized somehow?

Thanks again

Can you post a picture, I am envisioning a pipe 2 1/2 feet off of the ground and a very large mower.

[dunkman]

The service facts show 1 1/8, but except for very long lines, the size recommended by Trane's piping software 7/8.

The capacity loss of a 7/8" vapor line vs a 1 1/8" line is very small with a short line set. The ratings with 1 1/8 are to make the efficiency ratings look as good as possible.
The long term reliability of the system will be better with a 7/8" vapor line due to better oil return.

Another consideration is the cost of installing the 1 1/8" vapor line, vs keeping the 7/8" vapor line.
The money saved from the very slight increase in efficiency will never equal the cost of running the larger line. Not in the lifetime of the new system, or the one that it is eventually replaced with.

I agree. 7/8" will keep the velocity up, providing better oil return which is important, especially since it is 2 stage, and will probably spend the most hours in 1st stage.

[Wabey]

See attached photo...hope you are able to see....(sorry if its turned)

Any suggestions?

[rglasgow]

Turn the elbow on PVC so that drain runs across pad and drains away from house.

[beenthere]

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