Coil condensate drops

[twinblown]

Hello everyone, I find this site very helpfull and hope someone can shed some light on my issue. A couple months ago I went to change filter and noticed a wet concrete; I craweld into the intake and literaly watched some condensate drops not fall directly onto the drain pan, specially right after it cycled OFF. I can see the drops not fall directly onto the pan instead some fall almost perpendicular to the ground, some barely hit the edge of the pan. You can literaly see the drops in the pics I am posting. The accumulated water is 2 days worth and this has never been an issue before. I am the original owner of the home and bought it "NEW" in 2006. When I very first noticed this I thought the coils could be dirty so I went ahead and rinsed them with a shoer head water hose, I was very carefull in doing so. After this it somewhat helped the dripping but it still continues. Any other infor you may need please let me know as I would like to know what could my issued be here
Thanks a lot

http://imageshack.us/g/853/img5074s.jpg/

[twinblown]

here are direct pics

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/9279/img5074s.th.jpg (http://img853.imageshack.us/i/img5074s.jpg/)
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6538/img5062h.th.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/img5062h.jpg/)
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/3926/img5065r.th.jpg (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/img5065r.jpg/)
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/6084/img5067o.th.jpg (http://img849.imageshack.us/i/img5067o.jpg/)
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7987/img5063y.th.jpg (http://img404.imageshack.us/i/img5063y.jpg/)
http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2470/img5073z.th.jpg (http://img542.imageshack.us/i/img5073z.jpg/)
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/47/img5072hp.th.jpg (http://img708.imageshack.us/i/img5072hp.jpg/)
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/845/img5071c.th.jpg (http://img225.imageshack.us/i/img5071c.jpg/)
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1546/img5070d.th.jpg (http://img341.imageshack.us/i/img5070d.jpg/)
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2474/img5066nu.th.jpg (http://img829.imageshack.us/i/img5066nu.jpg/)
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4969/img5064t.th.jpg (http://img560.imageshack.us/i/img5064t.jpg/)

[AddMore22]

Number of reasons.

1st ... What's your static pressure across evap?

2nd what's the charge?

3rd what's the fan speed ?

[vstech]

the drain is not to code. have a legitimate installer/service company come install a proper trap, and a better secondary. you have an open secondary drain, and no trap.
also, you have exposed combustible surface in the airstream... I'd at a minimum seal that with mastic.

[twinblown]

Number of reasons.

1st ... What's your static pressure across evap?

2nd what's the charge?

3rd what's the fan speed ?

thanks, AddMore22
1. I do not have the instrument to measure SP, still looking to see how I can get one to take this data.
2. Unknow , never had any issue with no cooling unless it's 90 or above where it takes a longer time to cool.
3. Unaware, must be at default low for high humidity climate (Florida) . I will need to check though.

[twinblown]

the drain is not to code. have a legitimate installer/service company come install a proper trap, and a better secondary. you have an open secondary drain, and no trap.
also, you have exposed combustible surface in the airstream... I'd at a minimum seal that with mastic.

Vstech
The drain is working perfectly and the pan is not overflowing. I can see condensate always draining outside my home. I remember reading somewhere that a trap is not always required if it meets certain criteria, maybe I can be enlightened more about this. The secondary has a trap switch installed and will shut the unit down if the pan overflows, if I understand it correctly.
Where exactly is this combustible surface in my pic. I would like to take care of it.
I live in Central Florida , this is a Carrier heat pump.
Thanks

[ar_hvac_man]

The secondary isnt open its got a float switch in it.

You need a trap.

You need to have someone check the static

[twinblown]

Here a pic of my outside drain. Is this kind considered a trap

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5228/img5079h.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/225/img5079h.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[ar_hvac_man]

Its a "natural" trap as ive heard it called.

[Danimal535]

you need a trap

[Danimal535]

and on some units high end 3m pleated filters don't help

[AddMore22]

Regardless if he needs a trap or not .... That's not going to help the fact that water is falling from the cool straight to the floor... A trap would not help this issue.

I think it is more of an air flow problem. What ton is it?

[twinblown]

I agree with you "Addmore22". The natural trap is doing it's job and has nothig to do with the problem I am presenting. My home is 2400sf under roof and I have a 4 ton Carrier 38SYG048300 & FY4ANF048
This morning the bucket was half full of condensate. The AC is working but with 92 as the high yesterday 94 today and 96 forecasted tomorrow the heat begins to infiltrate my home (specially around the air handler area) and takes a long time to cool down. I have it set at 76 overnight and it cycles fine through out the hight. Come the afternoon when I get home the thermostat is reading 79 and does not reach set temp. until about 9PM. But them again this is a different issue of possible insulation around the plenum in the attic. One question: if the unit was low on charge will it cause excess condensate to drip off to the concrete floor as I am experiencing?

[caincompany]

What size is that return? Looks extremely small for a 4ton. I also agree to chunk that pleated filter.

[twinblown]

It's 20x25...i'll look into oher filter, recomend please

Going back to my last post, if the unit was low on charge will it cause excess condensate to drip off the coil on to the concrete floor as I am experiencing?

[ar_hvac_man]

It's 20x25...i'll look into oher filter, recomend please

Going back to my last post, if the unit was low on charge will it cause excess condensate to drip off the coil on to the concrete floor as I am experiencing?

If it were building up ice it could.

[twinblown]

I can't see any ice build up in the A coil and I mean above and below.

[chillerout1]

I would wash the coil with a light degreaser I have seen them do that when new and the manufacturing oils cause that and you may have some kind of film on it that a light coil cleaner will take care of

[twinblown]

Regardless if he needs a trap or not .... That's not going to help the fact that water is falling from the cool straight to the floor... A trap would not help this issue.

I think it is more of an air flow problem. What ton is it?

AddMore22: Your hunch was right! after replacing the air filter the falling drops have practicaly deminished. The old filter was excatly 30 days old but since my unit in this hot mother summer runs non stop pretty much 15 hours a day it must have shortened the life of the filter and it's airflow!
This now leads me to another question in respect to air filter life, how does usage correllate to filter life? I mean the recomended change is every 30 days but with how many hours of usage? I guess I need to replace my filters every 20 days in the highest usage months?
Thanks all you guys for the imputs.:cheers:

[udarrell]

It's 20x25...i'll look into other filter, recommend please

Going back to my last post, if the unit was low on charge will it cause excess condensate to drip off the coil on to the concrete floor as I am experiencing?
If the coil was icing-up due to being low on charge, then it could cause it to be beyond the perimeters of the drain pan.
The airflow with that small area pleated filter may have been so low that the coil was icing up some...

Regarding the 20X25 'physical' filter (area); using low PD media type filters it is only good for a 1.5-ton cooling system.

The initial velocity through a clean low pressure drop fiber glass throw-away filter is supposed to be no more than 300-fpm.

Therefore, 1600-cfm / 300-fpm is 5.333-sf of free-air-area (Ak) filter area; that's means a 36X30 physical sized filter or 'two' 24X24 filters in the conditioned area of the home.

Larger tonnages should always have at least two Return Air filter racks located in the conditioned area. A scant few installations meet these high RA filter sizing standards...

Google: Hart & Cooley to see their (Ak) data on RA filter sizing...94A Series (page 44)

[AddMore22]

If the coil was icing-up due to being low on charge, then it could cause it to be beyond the perimeters of the drain pan.
The airflow with that small area pleated filter may have been so low that the coil was icing up some...

Regarding the 20X25 'physical' filter (area); using low PD media type filters it is only good for a 1.5-ton cooling system.

The initial velocity through a clean low pressure drop fiber glass throw-away filter is supposed to be no more than 300-fpm.

Therefore, 1600-cfm / 300-fpm is 5.333-sf of free-air-area (Ak) filter area; that's means a 36X30 physical sized filter or 'two' 24X24 filters in the conditioned area of the home.

Larger tonnages should always have at least two Return Air filter racks located in the conditioned area. A scant few installations meet these high RA filter sizing standards...

Google: Hart & Cooley to see their (Ak) data on RA filter sizing...94A Series (page 44)



Show off !! :)

[twinblown]

If the coil was icing-up due to being low on charge, then it could cause it to be beyond the perimeters of the drain pan.
The airflow with that small area pleated filter may have been so low that the coil was icing up some...

Regarding the 20X25 'physical' filter (area); using low PD media type filters it is only good for a 1.5-ton cooling system.

The initial velocity through a clean low pressure drop fiber glass throw-away filter is supposed to be no more than 300-fpm.

Therefore, 1600-cfm / 300-fpm is 5.333-sf of free-air-area (Ak) filter area; that's means a 36X30 physical sized filter or 'two' 24X24 filters in the conditioned area of the home.

Larger tonnages should always have at least two Return Air filter racks located in the conditioned area. A scant few installations meet these high RA filter sizing standards...

Google: Hart & Cooley to see their (Ak) data on RA filter sizing...94A Series (page 44)

I did and thanks for the data analisys UDARRELL.
Apparently whom ever designed my homes AC used the incorrect formula to determine return filter grill size. If you look at my first post there is a picture of the area for the grill, which now I realize I will not have the room to modify the existing grill into a larger 36x30 size but maybe a 36x25 if there i such a size. The only other choice I see is to place a second opening on the room next to it but don't know if that is a good or not so good choice.
Can you advise how my current undersized grill impacts my system? I mean it runs good when temperatures are up to the mid 80's; any 90's or above just makes it run non stop. I would like to know if the grill size is cause for this or how is it really affects the system. Again thanks!

[sgraefe]

The cause of the water dripping is due to the reduced air flow velocities thru the coil. Since the Return Air Filter size is smaller than the unit requires, and the Higher Outdoor Ambient Air Temps are making the system run for a longer amount of time. This is causing the condensation, that is normal to occur, to instead of draining down the face of the coil into the drain pan, to drip off the coil. It would have still occured when its cooler outside, but since the unit isn't running as long, it wouldn't have produced as much condensation and had a chance to evaporate if it did drip. I prefer to use the 1.3sqft/ton of filter area for any system, more if the customer is having allergy issues and they want to use a denser filter than a common pleated filter.

Alot of times, builders just use whatever area they have available for the filter grille. Sizing it based on unit capacities isn't even considered.

You will find that once the Return Air is opened up, the system will operate alot better. I believe I've never found a system that had too much Return Airflow!