Morale low for US troops in Iraq.

[oloenneker]

Troop Morale in Iraq? "It Sucks," Reporter Discovers
By E&P Staff

Published: July 26, 2006 12:15 AM ET

NEW YORK We often hear from President Bush, Secretary of Defense
Rumsfeld or various generals about the high order of troop morale in
Iraq --but we rarely hear directly from the troops themselves. Joshua
Partlow of The Washington Post spent four days recently, on and off
patrol, with members of the Army's 2nd Battalion, 6th Infantry
Regiment, 1st Armored Division, in and around Baghad. The battalion of
more than 750 arrived in Baghdad in March, and since then, six soldiers
have been killed and 21 wounded.

Here are some of the reactions he got, as he chronicled in a story for
his paper on Thursday.

--Staff Sgt. Jose Sixtos: "Think of what you hate most about your job.
Then think of doing what you hate most for five straight hours, every
single day, sometimes twice a day, in 120-degree heat," he said. "Then
ask how morale is." Frustrated? "You have no idea," he said.

--"It sucks," said Spec. Tim Ivey, 28, of San Antonio. "Honestly, it
just feels like we're driving around waiting to get blown up, that's
the most honest answer I could give you....You lose a couple friends
and it gets hard."

--"No one wants to be here, you know, no one is truly enthused about
what we do," said Sgt. Christopher Dugger, the squad leader. "We were
excited, but then it just wears on you -- there's only so much you can
take. Like me, personally, I want to fight in a war like World War II.
I want to fight an enemy. And this, out here, there is no enemy, it's a
faceless enemy. He's out there, but he's hiding....

"We're trained as an Army to fight and destroy the enemy and then take
over," added Dugger, 26, of Reno, Nev. "But I don't think we're trained
enough to push along a country, and that's what we're actually doing
out here."

--The commanders may be "looking at the big picture all the time, but
for us, we don't see no big picture, it's just always another bomb out
here," said Spec. Joshua Steffey, 24, of Asheville, N.C.

He said he wished "somebody would explain to us, 'Hey, this is what
we're working for.' " He added that he could not care less "if Iraq's
free" or "if they're a democracy....The first time somebody you know
dies, the first thing you ask yourself is, 'Well, what did he die for?'
"

--"At this point, it seems like the war on drugs in America," added
Spec. David Fulcher, 22, a medic from Lynchburg, Va. "It's like this
never-ending battle, like, we find one IED, if we do find it before it
hits us, so what? You know it's just like if the cops make a big bust,
next week the next higher-up puts more back out there....

"My personal opinion, I don't speak for the rest of anybody, I just
speak for me personally, I think civil war is going to happen
regardless. Maybe this country needs it: One side has to win. Be it
Sunni, be it Shiite, one side has to win. It's apparent, these people
have made it obvious they can't live in unity."

[skrewt]

Originally posted by oloenneker
Troop Morale in Iraq? "It Sucks," Reporter Discovers
By E&P Staff

Published: July 26, 2006 12:15 AM ET

NEW YORK We often hear from President Bush, Secretary of Defense
Rumsfeld or various generals about the high order of troop morale in
Iraq --but we rarely hear directly from the troops themselves. Joshua
Partlow of The Washington Post spent four days recently, on and off
patrol, with members of the Army's 2nd Battalion, 6th Infantry
Regiment, 1st Armored Division, in and around Baghad. The battalion of
more than 750 arrived in Baghdad in March, and since then, six soldiers
have been killed and 21 wounded.

Here are some of the reactions he got, as he chronicled in a story for
his paper on Thursday.

--Staff Sgt. Jose Sixtos: "Think of what you hate most about your job.
Then think of doing what you hate most for five straight hours, every
single day, sometimes twice a day, in 120-degree heat," he said. "Then
ask how morale is." Frustrated? "You have no idea," he said.

--"It sucks," said Spec. Tim Ivey, 28, of San Antonio. "Honestly, it
just feels like we're driving around waiting to get blown up, that's
the most honest answer I could give you....You lose a couple friends
and it gets hard."

--"No one wants to be here, you know, no one is truly enthused about
what we do," said Sgt. Christopher Dugger, the squad leader. "We were
excited, but then it just wears on you -- there's only so much you can
take. Like me, personally, I want to fight in a war like World War II.
I want to fight an enemy. And this, out here, there is no enemy, it's a
faceless enemy. He's out there, but he's hiding....

"We're trained as an Army to fight and destroy the enemy and then take
over," added Dugger, 26, of Reno, Nev. "But I don't think we're trained
enough to push along a country, and that's what we're actually doing
out here."

--The commanders may be "looking at the big picture all the time, but
for us, we don't see no big picture, it's just always another bomb out
here," said Spec. Joshua Steffey, 24, of Asheville, N.C.

He said he wished "somebody would explain to us, 'Hey, this is what
we're working for.' " He added that he could not care less "if Iraq's
free" or "if they're a democracy....The first time somebody you know
dies, the first thing you ask yourself is, 'Well, what did he die for?'
"

--"At this point, it seems like the war on drugs in America," added
Spec. David Fulcher, 22, a medic from Lynchburg, Va. "It's like this
never-ending battle, like, we find one IED, if we do find it before it
hits us, so what? You know it's just like if the cops make a big bust,
next week the next higher-up puts more back out there....

"My personal opinion, I don't speak for the rest of anybody, I just
speak for me personally, I think civil war is going to happen
regardless. Maybe this country needs it: One side has to win. Be it
Sunni, be it Shiite, one side has to win. It's apparent, these people
have made it obvious they can't live in unity."

Wow, this guy was the valedictorian at the Michael Moore school of selective interviewing.

[oloenneker]

Maybe, but it does give some insight how some of the troops feel. I suspect that it is more than a "select" few.

[skrewt]

Originally posted by oloenneker
Maybe, but it does give some insight how some of the troops feel. I suspect that it is more than a "select" few.

I spent 6 years active army.
There were many soldiers unhappy about sitting in the barracks.
There were soldiers unhappy on field exercises.
There were soldiers unhappy all the time.
Just like regular life, no matter where you go or what you are doing there is always the whiners and complainers.

The only thing you can do is not listen and do your job or you risk being sucked into their "woe is me" mindset.

[skrewt]

I would be interested to see the correlation of unhappy soldiers to those who regularly read the NYtimes and watch CNN.

[batdude]

what are you doing still here telling us
what a great deal it is, what's going on over there?

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by batdude
what are you doing still here telling us
what a great deal it is, what's going on over there?

They dont know either. They are just Rubber stampers that will condone anything the Bush regeime does, regardless of what's at stake!! In this case, Americans, whom they could care less about..

[keither]

Originally posted by oloenneker

Originally posted by batdude
what are you doing still here telling us
what a great deal it is, what's going on over there?

They dont know either. They are just Rubber stampers that will condone anything the Bush regeime does, regardless of what's at stake!! In this case, Americans, whom they could care less about..

And likewise the crap you post here is from an outlet that will say anything to denigrate the Bush administration like 80% of the MSM, even if it is to the detriment of our country. Editor&Publisher is about as objective as a car salesman. Keep the self-hatred going. It'll smoke you moonbats come November.

[hvacbear]

The ones who gripe and complain can always be found.
Part of what these guys are saying is true.
I do not think it is any great revelation that running around in very hot weather
wearing a flack vest while waiting for someone to shoot at you or blow up an IED is on the top ten list of “Things to do that really suck”.

We (the military) have a job to do and we are doing it and just like your job portions of it we hate and just like you some of us ***** (which does not mean morale is low) and some of us make lemonade with the lemons. Granted our bad portion lasts anywhere from 6-18 months long and a couple of compressors on a Tucson roof top starts looking pretty good 4 months into a tour in Iraq.

Yes it sucks, yes we all miss our families, yes there is a point when it seems like we are spinning our wheels, yes there is sand and wind and heat and mortar/missile attacks, yes it is absolutely the hardest thing in the world when we loose on of our own.

Ask any one of us and yes it is worth it for freedom, and yes we would rather do this overseas than here in front of our children, yes we are glad we have kept them busy enough so far to prevent another 9/11, yes we see things every day you will never see in the media like the banners saying “Thank You George Bush” and “USA #1” and little Iraqis hugging soldiers, and yes we know that you will never see one second of media cover age for the supporters that stand at our front gate every weekend waving the American flag and holding signs of military appreciation, yes we know we defend the rights of people to have free speech and to protest what we do and have opinions we think are stupid (read that one twice) and yes we know we can die and yes we try not to think about it while we leave our crying families, yes we love our families and there is nothing like seeing their faces when you step off the plane and you are home safe at last.

Yes, morale is a continuous struggle to maintain but we do it! We do it for each other, our families, our mission, our country and You!

[skrewt]

Originally posted by oloenneker

Originally posted by batdude
what are you doing still here telling us
what a great deal it is, what's going on over there?

They dont know either. They are just Rubber stampers that will condone anything the Bush regeime does, regardless of what's at stake!! In this case, Americans, whom they could care less about..

Their headquarters are right next to the democrat rubberstampers that condemn everything Bush does.
Drink your koolaid and be quiet.

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by skrewt

Originally posted by oloenneker

Originally posted by batdude
what are you doing still here telling us
what a great deal it is, what's going on over there?

They dont know either. They are just Rubber stampers that will condone anything the Bush regeime does, regardless of what's at stake!! In this case, Americans, whom they could care less about..

Their headquarters are right next to the democrat rubberstampers that condemn everything Bush does.
Drink your koolaid and be quiet.

Come on now? I dont need koolaid, It's not that hot here (78ºF High) so I dont need the thirst quencher... Why don't you go and figure out why your AC is not cooling you house down?

http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/images/redneck_cool_camping.jpg

[skrewt]

http://www.blackanthem.com/News/military393_86.shtml

http://www.vnis.com/story.cfm?textnewsid=2033

------------------------------------------
This one is a good read.
Gives you a no nonsense feel for the real story of troop morale.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1015-08.htm
-------------------------------------------

These links show that not all troop morale stories are bad.
But like michael moore if you plan your interviews you can get the results you want.

[seatonheating]

Do you honestly think any of these guys are still enthused about being there...c'mon?

The original post is dead-on. For one second, take your christian blinders off and you will see the real picture.

There is senseless dying going on over there everyday for nothing. Even if we accomplish the mission over there it won't matter. Terrorists will always be terrorists regardless of any "small" democratic country over there.

Instead of wasting all our resources over there we need to start spending money on what is real important, stem-cell research.....oh, wait we can't even do that because of this moron we call our president, outrageous.

[skrewt]

Originally posted by seatonheating
Do you honestly think any of these guys are still enthused about being there...c'mon?

The original post is dead-on. For one second, take your christian blinders off and you will see the real picture.

There is senseless dying going on over there everyday for nothing. Even if we accomplish the mission over there it won't matter. Terrorists will always be terrorists regardless of any "small" democratic country over there.

Instead of wasting all our resources over there we need to start spending money on what is real important, stem-cell research.....oh, wait we can't even do that because of this moron we call our president, outrageous.

You're a joke.
Obviously not a veteran and have no clue about the mindset of the military.
Read the last link I posted and you will be enlightened.
I don't think anyone will argue the truth of it.

[geerair]

Originally posted by seatonheating

Instead of wasting all our resources over there we need to start spending money on what is real important, stem-cell research.....oh, wait we can't even do that because of this moron we call our president, outrageous.Are you insane? Spend the money on something that may become the medical breakthrough of all time? Madness.

No, what we need to spend it on is more tax cuts for Dear Leader's rich clients and those near indigent oil companies.

Hell, we need to spend it on a tax break for poor Paris Hilton. Why, who knows where she will scrape up the money to properly outfit her next pet in diamonds and mink.

We need to give it to the Republican Culture of Corruption. Hell, Abramoff is no longer able to pass out the big bucks so the boys need another source of cold cash.


We need to spend it on another invasion of another piss weak nation that is no threat to us, so Dear Leader can stand on the deck of a carrier and declare Mission Accomplished and ignore Bin Ladin some more.

Yeah, we are not getting our moneys worth in Iraq anymore. Everybody is bored with it and nobody likes failures. We need a fresh conflict to boost the juices of the chickenhawk crowd.


Hey, maybe we could use the money to buy into that new, exciting war in Lebanon. Lots of fireworks, collateral damage and dead women and children.

That is just what Dear Leader loves.

[skrewt]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by seatonheating

Instead of wasting all our resources over there we need to start spending money on what is real important, stem-cell research.....oh, wait we can't even do that because of this moron we call our president, outrageous.Are you insane? Spend the money on something that may become the medical breakthrough of all time? Madness.

No, what we need to spend it on is more tax cuts for Dear Leader's rich clients and those near indigent oil companies.

Hell, we need to spend it on a tax break for poor Paris Hilton. Why, who knows where she will scrape up the money to properly outfit her next pet in diamonds and mink.

We need to give it to the Republican Culture of Corruption. Hell, Abramoff is no longer able to pass out the big bucks so the boys need another source of cold cash.


We need to spend it on another invasion of another piss weak nation that is no threat to us, so Dear Leader can stand on the deck of a carrier and declare Mission Accomplished and ignore Bin Ladin some more.

Yeah, we are not getting our moneys worth in Iraq anymore. Everybody is bored with it and nobody likes failures. We need a fresh conflict to boost the juices of the chickenhawk crowd.


Hey, maybe we could use the money to buy into that new, exciting war in Lebanon. Lots of fireworks, collateral damage and dead women and children.

That is just what Dear Leader loves.

How much extra money did you send to the government last april?
Why do you feel that someone else's money is yours for the taking.
Grow some nads and go rob some rich guy at gunpoint yourself instead of asking the government to do it for you.
Get off it, there is zero evidence that embryonic stem cell research will cure anything at all. Just pie in the sky hopes in an effort to create an embryo market. We've got to make those abortion doctors rich so you can complain about them too.
You are a loser of royal dimensions.

[geerair]

Originally posted by skrewt

How much extra money did you send to the government last april?Thousands.


Why do you feel that someone else's money is yours for the taking.That is what I ask when the Shrub's rich clients and the indigent oil companies take my money.


Grow some nads and go rob some rich guy at gunpoint yourself instead of asking the government to do it for you.Why shouldn't I ask the government to do it for me when Shrub is in the business of using the government to line the pockets his wealthy clients and those poor, poor oil companies? Shrub takes our tax money and gives it to his buddies and the rest he pisses away on an unjustified quagmire of a war.



Get off it, there is zero evidence that embryonic stem cell research will cure anything at all. Go to Pubmed.com and write in embryonic stem cells. You will get over 20,000 hits on scientific papers.

See, freeperland is not exactly the best source of info on any subject but particularly embryonic stem cell science.




Just pie in the sky hopes in an effort to create an embryo market.Bawhahahahahawaha. Another freeperland science flash. See the embryos are there for the asking. People donate them.

Looks like freeperland is not a credible source of business savvy either. They could probably just manage a small lemonade stand if they got their lemons for free.



We've got to make those abortion doctors rich so you can complain about them too.Which ones are those?



You are a loser of royal dimensions.Royal? Pah. You are a smalltime thinker.

[RoBoTeq]

One word for the idiots who think that the most of the Americans doing service in Iraq are disgruntled;

VOLUNTEERS!

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
One word for the idiots who think that the most of the Americans doing service in Iraq are disgruntled;

VOLUNTEERS!

Easy for some to volunteer when they are mislead about what they are doing and why they are going.

Took for them to go over there and be "dubya's" guinea pigs to get that way.

[geerair]

Nobody volunteered for an unjustifed, ineptly planned, poorly armour equipped quagmire of occupation led by a lying, disinterested, meathead of a Commander in Chief.

[hvacbear]

Some how it seems like it is little consolation after 4 months in Iraq with the IED's, mortars /missiles, missing the family, the heat the sand storms etc. that "I was a volunteer"

[weber]

As a SGT in the United States Marine Corp, I have to say that is is so easy for people who think we dont belong there to sit here and complain about everything. And to disrespect our troops by insisting your feelings as ours. Of course there are going to be military members who dont wont to be there. I bet there are people at your work who dont wont to be there either, but the difference is we choose to join. We choose to fight for what are country belives in. We choose to risk or die for Honor, so you can sit here and ***** about whats going wrong with everything overthere. It is so easy for everyone to look at all the negitive things that happen, but why dont we focus on the good things. The US has impacted the world with this war. We vow to not only make our country safer but the world! I have been there, and my brothers are there now. I stay in contact with them weekly and I personal KNOW the the Marines know what they are there for, and are proud to be there. And they donot want to come home intill the job is completed. So, lets focus on that for awhile!

[weber]

You should never Disrespect the Commander in Cheif!
No matter what your believes are. The people chose him, thats our right.

You must one of those americans who talks a big game but really hides behind everything. You really dont understand what The United States of America Stands for. I think you need too look back in history and learn what this great counrty came from and where we are going. If you dont like it here or what we are doing, This Marines will GLADLY show you and everyone else to the Gate!

[RoBoTeq]

Well stated Weber. Unfortunately this forum is infested with a few ultra whiney liberals that you will never be able to have a rational discussion with.

Fortunately, there are more grateful Americans who support those who are actually doing what needs to be done for our country.

[geerair]

Originally posted by weber
You should never Disrespect the Commander in Cheif!
No matter what your believes are. The people chose him, thats our right.Dissent is also a right. When Bush shows that he deserves respect, then I will respectfully grant it to him.



You must one of those americans who talks a big game but really hides behind everything.What do you think I am hiding behind?



You really dont understand what The United States of America Stands for.I know what it stood for before dissent was labeled treason and politics became more about enriching yourself and your friends at the expense of others lives.



I think you need too look back in history and learn what this great counrty came from and where we are going.We came from rebellion and we are heading to monarchy.




If you dont like it here or what we are doing, This Marines will GLADLY show you and everyone else to the Gate! You make the mistake of conflating dissent with hate of country.

[oloenneker]

You make the mistake of conflating dissent with hate of country.



http://www.oldamericancentury.org/dissent2.jpg

[batdude]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
One word for the idiots who think that the most of the Americans doing service in Iraq are disgruntled;

VOLUNTEERS!

two words for the idiots who still believe they are
actually all volunteers....STOP-LOSS

[skrewt]

Originally posted by batdude

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
One word for the idiots who think that the most of the Americans doing service in Iraq are disgruntled;

VOLUNTEERS!

two words for the idiots who still believe they are
actually all volunteers....STOP-LOSS

You're not a veteran either I see.
You have no idea how the military works.
They are still volunteers.
Citing stop-loss is like saying because you had to work overtime all weekend when you would rather have been at the lake you didn't freely accept the job.

[tonys]

how about that guy from the projects, with 2 kids at home and no job prospects other than a min. wage job at Walmart?

this dude signed-up to the military (full-time or reserves), with the notion he will get a 'free' education and a decent paying job, one day building a better life for his family.

...is he STILL a volunteer?
i.e. volunteering to be in that rat-hole?


and, what are the average Americans doing to help him out?
(use less muuuuslim controlled gasoline? ----ah, NOT)

[geerair]

What about the National Guard guy who completed his committment and thought he was heading home? Did he volunteer for more time in country?

[skrewt]

Originally posted by geerair
What about the National Guard guy who completed his committment and thought he was heading home? Did he volunteer for more time in country?

He volunteered to do what his country asked him to do.
It was made known to me when I joined that terms could be extended based on mission need.
Yes he volunteered for that possibility.
You may say he gambled he wouldn't have to, but he knew the risk and signed on the dotted line.

[tonys]

are you doing anything to get him home sooner?

does it even matter to you?

[skrewt]

Originally posted by tonys
are you doing anything to get him home sooner?

does it even matter to you?

Unlike you, I am supporting his efforts so that he can come home after we win.
Undermining his efforts and bolstering the morale of the enemy only prolongs it.
The best thing you can do to get him home is STFU.

[tonys]

did you take the bus to work?

[skrewt]

Originally posted by tonys
did you take the bus to work?

Did you drink your koolaid this morning?

[tonys]

koolaid?
I'm not the fox-news-puppet.


and, are you trying to compete with Jimmy-8765309 as the 'angry guy' on this web-board?

that'll be tough.

[skrewt]

Originally posted by tonys
koolaid?
I'm not the fox-news-puppet.


and, are you trying to compete with Jimmy-8765309 as the 'angry guy' on this web-board?

that'll be tough.

So why is it exactly that you and geer and every other dem love to equate problems in Iraq with failure?
Did you expect things to go smoothly?
Do things go without problems in your everyday life?
Do you never encounter obstacles?
If you do, do you turn tail and run?

[batdude]

if you accidentally hit your thumb with a hammer,
do you, as policy, smack the other nine digits?
"stay the course," numb-nuts.

yeah, you GD right I am a vet, and actually it is
you who doesn't know how the military works.

and "OT on the weekend when you'd rather
be at the lake" pales in comparison to being
a duck in a 130 degree shooting gallery after
Uncle Sam has broken his contract with you.
what part of a deal is a deal is so inexplicable,
Sr. Screwed?



[Edited by batdude on 08-03-2006 at 05:50 PM]

[skrewt]

Originally posted by batdude
if you accidentally hit your thumb with a hammer,
do you, as policy, smack the other nine digits?
"stay the course," numb-nuts.

yeah, you GD right I am a vet, and actually it is
you who doesn't know how the military works.

If you were actually a veteran you would know people who had their terms extended to complete a tour of duty, even in peacetime.
So I guess you are either lying about being a vet or just retarded. If you were in the military prior to Reagan's term in office I suppose you could be both.

Sorry you hate your country so much. Take a pill and relax for awhile. Maybe it will pass.

[skrewt]

Originally posted by batdude
if you accidentally hit your thumb with a hammer,
do you, as policy, smack the other nine digits?
"stay the course," numb-nuts.

Not exactly a good analogy. I guess in your case you wouldn't finish the hammering job either just because you hit your finger. In the real world we call that "quitting".


[/b]yeah, you GD right I am a vet, and actually it is
you who doesn't know how the military works. [/B]

If you were actually a veteran you would know people who had their terms extended to complete a tour of duty, even in peacetime.
So I guess you are either lying about being a vet or just retarded. If you were in the military prior to Reagan's term in office I suppose you could be a retarded vet.

Sorry you hate your country so much. Take a pill and relax for awhile. Maybe it will pass. [/B][/QUOTE]

[Edited by skrewt on 08-03-2006 at 05:53 PM]

[batdude]

the country is way more than ok, you know,
the land and its people. its government
sucks on an intergalactic scale.
why don't you invent a time machine and go
back to Nazi Germany where you belong?
polish up your stop-loss of which you are so
enamored on the Eastern Front?
and isn't it right that once ya hammer one digit,
the others get the same treatment so the first one
wasn't injured in vain?


[Edited by batdude on 08-03-2006 at 06:19 PM]

[skrewt]

Originally posted by batdude
the country is way more than ok, you know,
the land and its people. its government
sucks on an intergalactic scale.
why don't you invent a time machine and go
back to Nazi Germany where you belong?
polish up your stop-loss of which you are so
enamored on the Eastern Front?


You're just experiencing post traumatic stress disorder from the Clinton years.
Focus on the now and you will be OK.
The Government is doing just fine as well.

[skrewt]

Originally posted by batdude
the country is way more than ok, you know,
the land and its people. its government
sucks on an intergalactic scale.
why don't you invent a time machine and go
back to Nazi Germany where you belong?
polish up your stop-loss of which you are so
enamored on the Eastern Front?
and isn't it right that once ya hammer one digit,
the others get the same treatment so the first one
wasn't injured in vain?


[Edited by batdude on 08-03-2006 at 06:19 PM]

Now that I think about it, You're that guy in the platoon that was always *****ing about everything aren't you.
The one nobody wanted to do duty with because you made life miserable with your whining and complaining.
The one who had life so good back home that he regretted joining.
The pisser and the moaner who made it his personal mission to drag everyone else into depression.
I knew many like you in the Army. They didn't bring me down then and you won't get me on your dark cloud now.

[skrewt]

and isn't it right that once ya hammer one digit,
the others get the same treatment so the first one
wasn't injured in vain?


In your world maybe. In mine I try to be more careful and finish the job.
Still a bad example.

[batdude]

if, as Kunstler says, once Peak Oil really gets
crankin', Big Brother will be lucky to answer his
friggin' PHONE, there certainly is hope.


why, just the other day, Glorious Leader,
George Napoleon Bush, explained that many have died,
so many more must die, and that will be better.
gotta say, I am with ya on this one.
that idea is really outlandishly absurd.



[Edited by batdude on 08-03-2006 at 06:33 PM]

[seatonheating]

I got a really good idea!!

Why didn't we, say, back in the 60's when the beaners really started coming in, start training them for war right away? Seems to me a good idea. Would get them off of the republicans back by killing themselves in a war that the republicans promote. Makes great sense to me. While your at it, why don't you send all the gays over there to fight as well. Bet that would make you really happy wouldn't it?

[weber]

[Edited by batdude on 08-03-2006 at 06:19 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

Now that I think about it, You're that guy in the platoon that was always *****ing about everything aren't you.
The one nobody wanted to do duty with because you made life miserable with your whining and complaining.
The one who had life so good back home that he regretted joining.
The pisser and the moaner who made it his personal mission to drag everyone else into depression.
I knew many like you in the Army. They didn't bring me down then and you won't get me on your dark cloud now. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thats what it sounds like to me. As I said in an earlier post, I served in the US Marine Corp and was proud to fight in this war. And even after being injuried and retired at the age of 24 Im still proud of the US for doing "our duty to GOD and our Country" and for doing what we all no is right even if your scarder to look inside yourself and admit it or see it. My brothers are still there and they want to be there to get the job done right. So you guys can sit here and be neg and hatefully against of goverment decisions, just because you dont have the Honor, Courage, or Committment to do whats right.
And for you guys who believe in the cause and in our country and my brothers.... I say Thank you because your support is what keeps our moral up!

[skrewt]

Originally posted by weber
[Edited by batdude on 08-03-2006 at 06:19 PM]

Now that I think about it, You're that guy in the platoon that was always *****ing about everything aren't you.
The one nobody wanted to do duty with because you made life miserable with your whining and complaining.
The one who had life so good back home that he regretted joining.
The pisser and the moaner who made it his personal mission to drag everyone else into depression.
I knew many like you in the Army. They didn't bring me down then and you won't get me on your dark cloud now. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thats what it sounds like to me. As I said in an earlier post, I served in the US Marine Corp and was proud to fight in this war. And even after being injuried and retired at the age of 24 Im still proud of the US for doing "our duty to GOD and our Country" and for doing what we all no is right even if your scarder to look inside yourself and admit it or see it. My brothers are still there and they want to be there to get the job done right. So you guys can sit here and be neg and hatefully against of goverment decisions, just because you dont have the Honor, Courage, or Committment to do whats right.
And for you guys who believe in the cause and in our country and my brothers.... I say Thank you because your support is what keeps our moral up! [/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you indeed for your service.
Because of you several thousand innocents didn't die in a second 9/11.
These losers couldn't care less about the 3000+ innocent women and children that died on that day. They love the idea of risking many more innocent lives on this soil rather than take the fight to the enemy.
They don't understand what's at stake here.
They don't understand the wide ranging scope of our enemy.
They truly believe that terrorism is a law enforcement issue.
They actually think terrorists can be negotiated with.
It's a dangerous mindset they have. One we don't have the luxury to experiment with.

[geerair]

But, but Dear Leader Bush said Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Who are we to believe? You or Dear Leader?

[chillbilly]

You're going to believe whatever you want whether it's predicated on fact of fiction.
Just go to bed and rest knowing that your security is being protected by our military and the powers responsible for protecting your communist a$$.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
You're going to believe whatever you want whether it's predicated on fact of fiction.
Just go to bed and rest knowing that your security is being protected by our military and the powers responsible for protecting your communist a$$.Tell us, what military role did you play protecting asses?

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by tonys
how about that guy from the projects, with 2 kids at home and no job prospects other than a min. wage job at Walmart?

this dude signed-up to the military (full-time or reserves), with the notion he will get a 'free' education and a decent paying job, one day building a better life for his family.

...is he STILL a volunteer?
i.e. volunteering to be in that rat-hole?


and, what are the average Americans doing to help him out?
(use less muuuuslim controlled gasoline? ----ah, NOT)

Since you seem to really not know or understand the answer to your question here; YES; HE IS STILL A VOLUNTEER!

What the hell do you think the military does anyway? So a few liberal jerks with no scrupples join the military for a free education and the chance to see a lot of naked men in the showers. Most volunteers are not so unscrupulous.

[seatonheating]

Liberals are too smart to be drawn in by a war so frought with disaster. I've been against it from day 1 (Sept. 11). Border protection would be far cheaper and much safer than this nonsense. I know many who agree, actually most people agree.

It "is" true that morale is low. Why? Because unfortunately for this administration most people are logical thinkers, not righty clones who will bow to a dictator.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by seatonheating
Liberals are too smart to be drawn in by a war so frought with disaster. I've been against it from day 1 (Sept. 11). Border protection would be far cheaper and much safer than this nonsense. I know many who agree, actually most people agree.

It "is" true that morale is low. Why? Because unfortunately for this administration most people are logical thinkers, not righty clones who will bow to a dictator.

Your "truth" about moral is only echoed by the limitations of your exposure to real people involved in Iraq. Your "truth" is only your perception of "truth" because of your limitations to seek out more then support for your way of thinking.

The fact that we have a 100% volunteer military allows for those who do not agree with what we are doing militarily to sit on the sidelines and let those who are actually doing something to protect those who complain about their protectors.

Those who oppose war for the sake of being in opposition to war are like parakeets in a cage that complain about being the cage seperating them from the cat. Not participating in war when being attacked by a worldwide faction such as Muslim fundamentalists is like stepping out of that cage into the cat's mouth.

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by seatonheating
Liberals are too smart to be drawn in by a war so frought with disaster. I've been against it from day 1 (Sept. 11). Border protection would be far cheaper and much safer than this nonsense. I know many who agree, actually most people agree.

It "is" true that morale is low. Why? Because unfortunately for this administration most people are logical thinkers, not righty clones who will bow to a dictator.


Those who oppose war for the sake of being in opposition to war are like parakeets in a cage that complain about being the cage seperating them from the cat. Not participating in war when being attacked by a worldwide faction such as Muslim fundamentalists is like stepping out of that cage into the cat's mouth.

Too bad we are in the wrong country to attack them properly.

[billygoat22]

Has anyone here even talked to a serviceman?

We've sent care packages to those from our community and their fellow soldiers. They've written back and even visited on occasion when on leave.

They seen glad to help those over there, and the Iraqi's in general seem grateful for thier help. If you're demoralized by thankful customers when you fix their a/c, then I guess morale is low over there.

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by billygoat22
Has anyone here even talked to a serviceman?

We've sent care packages to those from our community and their fellow soldiers. They've written back and even visited on occasion when on leave.

They seen glad to help those over there, and the Iraqi's in general seem grateful for thier help. If you're demoralized by thankful customers when you fix their a/c, then I guess morale is low over there.

Ya, my brother........talk to him all the time, he knows it's a joke, as well as hundreds of his marine buddies.


As far as your experiences, sounds like a select few.

[hvacbear]

OK,

My job is to get people ready to deploy (I am still HVAC just detailed out for a while).
The morale is NOT low. I am not going to lie and say that 100% of the troops are elated about going to war. Just like here on this site when something (anything) changes or happens someone will gripe and whine. Reporters are professionals at finding these people and publicizing their stories (along with their whining mothers).

I know this first hand also because before my current job I taught troops pre-deployment combat skills and handled several media interviews. The job is hard but that does not mean we can not do it with a positive attitude and just like society there are always those who complain no matter what the situation.

I will give you one example of how the morale is going. Recently I signed off on the last bit of paperwork to get one of our guys out the door (Middle East deployment for one year). He told me he was trying to hurry because his wife was in labor. I felt ½” tall as I realized he will see his child for two days deploy and the next time he sees the child it will be walking. His attitude was this is what we all signed up for. This has happened not once but TWICE since I have had this job.

The bottom line is yes we love to see our children born and grow up and have a family life, but we sacrifice our lives (sometimes literally) voluntarily so you can have yours. Our morale is not low.

I personally am glad that this debate is going on because it shows how far removed you all are from war and its atrocities.

Give us a break and don’t believe everything the news media spews out remember they want to sell a story. The majority of people in Iraq are happy since the US is in control and will tell you so.

[oloenneker]

Give us a break and don’t believe everything the news media spews out remember they want to sell a story. The majority of people in Iraq are happy since the US is in control and will tell you so.



Believe me, I do not believe everything the media tells me. I take a variety of sources and found my own opnion on the issue.

But let me let you in on why I am upset about the war in Iraq. First off, it has nothing to do with anything that the ground force troops are doing. You are all there, doing your job. A job you proudly signed up to do. And as a former gulf war I Veteran, I understand your position. And I applaud your courage and love for your country.

Here is my gripe: To me this is an un-neccesarry war. Our Kids are dying over there, coming back with missing limbs, and jumbled brains, all for something we, the American people were misled into. I am angry with the people that put you there, and told you lies to motivate you to fight.
In one of your posts you said that "no one should say anything negative about the "Commander in Cheif"... Well, that is the most american thing you can do. Think for your self. It's the basis for the foundation of the USA!! Dissidence!! It is a healthy country that can openly criticize it's government. That is protected by our constitution, and as a matter of fact, we enocurage it and brag about our ability to do so. We earned that right, over bloodshed to become a nation that is free!!

Do people not remember history, or does 35 years fog people's minds? We already fought a war just like this in the 1960's and the result was not very good.I fear that this will because the same situation.

Now, I was all for the first gulf war. Iraq invaded a defenseless country over territory issues. The rest of the world also understood this, and thus, the world reacted, and took care of the problem. I am also for hunting the Terrorist cells in Afganistan. Not a problem with me. That country is ruled by pure anarchy. But I cannot endorse this war in Iraq, and more and more people in the USA are beginning to feel this way as well. It's the misconceptions that this current administration feeds us day after day, that make me sick. Bush has even admitted that the primary reasons for the invasion was false, and they just make up new reasons for the continued occupation.

Now I am not there, so I cannot tell for sure, but from the looks of what I can tell, the US forces are just being the Police Department for Iraq, which is full of criminals, Warlords, and Sunni vs. Shia violence. Why is this our job? Did we not train an Iraqi police force and a military? Let them take care of this.
My view is, that, with the increasing aggressions of Isreal towards Lebanon, the reigon is going to erupt, and the mere pressence of US troops will make them targets, as well as our homeland. We need our troops back on our soil in a matter of defense against these people when and if they decide to attack us at home. Al-Q already has. Let that be a lesson, and let us concentrate on DEFENSE of our land, and let all those people in the middle east figure out their dispositions...

Sorry for the long read, but thank you for your service, and the best thing I can wish for all of you, is to have you back home, Alive!

I hope this gives you some insight (to at least my view) of why some of us are against the war, and loathe Bush.

[hvacbear]

[/quote]


In one of your posts you said that "no one should say anything negative about the "Commander in Cheif"... Well, that is the most american thing you can do.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I did not say this!?

I do agree freedom of speech should be protected. I have no problem with anyone speaking about elected officials as they wish.

As I told one of my troops who read about the protesters calling us baby killers (That is so Vietnam), and celebrating our funerals. We fight so these people can have stupid opinions (I am not saying yours is).

I respect your views and after seeing some young people come home mangled up I have asked my self why? In the end all the life and limb lost just does not seem worth the gain. I am also sure that first soldier at Bunker Hill or the Normandy invasion thought the same thing. I am glad we won our independence and enjoy speaking English and I am sure there were discussions in the past that were discussions about the politics ,dirty or otherwise, involved with all of our prior conflicts.

I agree speaking out is American.


[Edited by hvacbear on 08-06-2006 at 04:02 AM]

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by hvacbear

Originally posted by oloenneker


Give us a break and don’t believe everything the news media spews out remember they want to sell a story. The majority of people in Iraq are happy since the US is in control and will tell you so.




In one of your posts you said that "no one should say anything negative about the "Commander in Cheif"... Well, that is the most american thing you can do.


I did not say this!?

You are right! I confused you with someone else... Sorry about that...


Orignally posted by weber


You should never Disrespect the Commander in Cheif!
No matter what your believes are. The people chose him, thats our right.
[/quote]

Hvacbear, you are much more coherent than this guy....My mistake..

[hvacbear]

No problem I have done that before.

[keither]

Originally posted by oloenneker


Give us a break and don’t believe everything the news media spews out remember they want to sell a story. The majority of people in Iraq are happy since the US is in control and will tell you so.



Believe me, I do not believe everything the media tells me. I take a variety of sources and found my own opnion on the issue.

But let me let you in on why I am upset about the war in Iraq. First off, it has nothing to do with anything that the ground force troops are doing. You are all there, doing your job. A job you proudly signed up to do. And as a former gulf war I Veteran, I understand your position. And I applaud your courage and love for your country.

Here is my gripe: To me this is an un-neccesarry war. Our Kids are dying over there, coming back with missing limbs, and jumbled brains, all for something we, the American people were misled into. I am angry with the people that put you there, and told you lies to motivate you to fight.
In one of your posts you said that "no one should say anything negative about the "Commander in Cheif"... Well, that is the most american thing you can do. Think for your self. It's the basis for the foundation of the USA!! Dissidence!! It is a healthy country that can openly criticize it's government. That is protected by our constitution, and as a matter of fact, we enocurage it and brag about our ability to do so. We earned that right, over bloodshed to become a nation that is free!!

Do people not remember history, or does 35 years fog people's minds? We already fought a war just like this in the 1960's and the result was not very good.I fear that this will because the same situation.

Now, I was all for the first gulf war. Iraq invaded a defenseless country over territory issues. The rest of the world also understood this, and thus, the world reacted, and took care of the problem. I am also for hunting the Terrorist cells in Afganistan. Not a problem with me. That country is ruled by pure anarchy. But I cannot endorse this war in Iraq, and more and more people in the USA are beginning to feel this way as well. It's the misconceptions that this current administration feeds us day after day, that make me sick. Bush has even admitted that the primary reasons for the invasion was false, and they just make up new reasons for the continued occupation.

Now I am not there, so I cannot tell for sure, but from the looks of what I can tell, the US forces are just being the Police Department for Iraq, which is full of criminals, Warlords, and Sunni vs. Shia violence. Why is this our job? Did we not train an Iraqi police force and a military? Let them take care of this.
My view is, that, with the increasing aggressions of Isreal towards Lebanon, the reigon is going to erupt, and the mere pressence of US troops will make them targets, as well as our homeland. We need our troops back on our soil in a matter of defense against these people when and if they decide to attack us at home. Al-Q already has. Let that be a lesson, and let us concentrate on DEFENSE of our land, and let all those people in the middle east figure out their dispositions...

Sorry for the long read, but thank you for your service, and the best thing I can wish for all of you, is to have you back home, Alive!

I hope this gives you some insight (to at least my view) of why some of us are against the war, and loathe Bush.

Was Saddam in any position to hurt our national interests? No, probably not. Others? Probably so. But what other less-public motivations did we have for occupying Iraq?

1: opening a new front in the war on terror. This was and continues to be extremely successful, drawing every al Qaeda crazy in miles out to engage our military head on. It is difficult to gauge the success of the campaign against an invisible opponent, but there can be no doubt that this has placed a major strain on al Qaeda's funding and ability to opperate elsewhere. Russia reports that al Qaeda's involvement in Chechnya is declining, and the Phillipines report the same from their efforts against local rebels. And obviously they haven't pulled off a major attack against us in the last 59 months. The phrase that keeps coming to mund for some reason is "We're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here." You know what? It's actually working.

2: Buffering Israel and Iran. In case you haven't figured it out, Israel and Iran want to nuke each other. Having 125,000 American troops between them makes that difficult, and ensures our involvement and swift response if a full-size war does indeed break out.

3: A new Iraq. Once the rebuilding is complete, of course. Taking out a corrupted government and lifting the UN sanctions has already dramatically improved the national economy. Once the infrastructure comes back online, the new democracy refines itself, and the violence inevitably gets worked out, the country will really flourish. Kurdistan and Al Basra provinces (total population 1.5 million) are already showing this.

Iraq has created a lot of problems, no doubt, but some of it is blown far out of proportion. For instance, at no point has Iraq degraded into an actual civil war. It certainly has the potential to do so, but it's not at that level yet. The situation is better described as a gang war. But we have much better control of the situation than the media would lead you to believe. Also, our troops are not "bogged down" in Iraq. We only have one sixth of our total infantry forces in Iraq, and at least that many are available to be deployed elsewhere. This includes most of our Marine Expeditionary Units and Special Forces. We have almost no armor in Iraq, which means our armor divisions are ready to go anywhere else. We have our entire Air Force and Navy ready to deploy excessive force anywhere else in the world.

We may have screwed the pooch with the Iraq situation, but the descision to invade was not based just on a vengeful whim and bad intel. We have a much more significant agenda for our presence in Iraq.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by oloenneker
[quote]
Do people not remember history, or does 35 years fog people's minds? We already fought a war just like this in the 1960's and the result was not very good.I fear that this will because the same situation.



Funny you should mention VN, ole. Thanks for doing so.

Okay, you remember 35 years ago (I doubt you're 35 years old so you're repeating tripe you have been told) a war that was run by Congress and Cronkite and 2 weak Presidents. But you forget what happened just 5 short years ago. You don't like what the U.S. is doing in the Middle East, carry your liberal ass back to Scandanavia where it belongs. And don't give me that crap about Iraq not being connected to al queda...they were and it's been proven. Besides, according to U.N. resolutions, we were not only within our rights but bound by duty to go into Iraq.

So quit with the "historian" crap and get in touch with reality.

[Edited by bootlen on 08-08-2006 at 05:52 PM]

[tonys]

in accordance with the boot-tay's logic, the US military should 'annex' 6 states, because there is as much evidence al-qaeda are 'operating' in our back-yards, as there was/is in Bagdad.

...and, it's not worth US military lives and $$$s.

get NATO troups in there now, and 80% less US boots-on-the-ground.
wait, that's too logical and wouldn't support US oil and construction companies from controlling the re-construction, etc.


oh well, nothing will change until 2008...

[bootlen]

Originally posted by tonys
in accordance with the boot-tay's logic, the US military should 'annex' 6 states,

The military does not annex real estate. Stick to what ya know...nothing.

because there is as much evidence al-qaeda are 'operating' in our back-yards, as there was/is in Bagdad.

But libs won't let them be monitored.

...and, it's not worth US military lives and $$$s.

But it IS worth lives of civilians? Very telling!

get NATO troups in there now,

NATO?! Bwaaaaahahahahaha! Why not just send the Girl Scouts. No! Wait! Our grandmothers. Let's send our grandmothers. No! No! Wait! Let's send Mrs. Vincent's Kindergarten. No! I know! A bunch of engineers. That's who. A bunch of engineers. Al queda'll die laughing!

NATO?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! What a hoot!

and 80% less US boots-on-the-ground.

wait, that's too logical and wouldn't support US oil and construction companies from controlling the re-construction, etc.

Freakin' clueless.


oh well, nothing will change until 2008...

If yer lucky.

[cruller]

You know funny thing... When you tell a guy to give up everything, leave his family and risk his life because a mad man is about to get the bomb and nuke us oh and you'll be home in time for Christmas...

And then 4 years later none of it turned out to be true... you might wonder why in the hell you are over there. Further you might just begin to get a bad attitude and lose your want to be there.

In WWII there was no denying Pearl Harbor and they didn't fabricate Hitler... This **** in Iraq turned out to be all lies.

I wouldn't want to die for lies... I wouldn't want to miss my kids growing up for lies...

And you wouldn't either.


Originally posted by oloenneker
Maybe, but it does give some insight how some of the troops feel. I suspect that it is more than a "select" few.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by cruller
You know funny thing... When you tell a guy to give up everything, leave his family and risk his life because a mad man is about to get the bomb and nuke us oh and you'll be home in time for Christmas...

And then 4 years later none of it turned out to be true... you might wonder why in the hell you are over there. Further you might just begin to get a bad attitude and lose your want to be there.

In WWII there was no denying Pearl Harbor and they didn't fabricate Hitler... This **** in Iraq turned out to be all lies.

I wouldn't want to die for lies... I wouldn't want to miss my kids growing up for lies...

And you wouldn't either.

No one from W's administration ever made any of those promises. You been listening to some lib propaganda, dude.

[oloenneker]

I wouldn't want to die for lies... I wouldn't want to miss my kids growing up for lies...

And you wouldn't either.


No one should. Thats what is so wrong about this war.

If there was a force against the US like in WWII, things would be different, and even I, would serve again. But this war is not like that. Sheesh, it's not even like in 1991 when I was in Kuwait. It's a war for profit, and that is wrong all ways round.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by oloenneker



I wouldn't want to die for lies... I wouldn't want to miss my kids growing up for lies...

And you wouldn't either.


No one should. Thats what is so wrong about this war.

If there was a force against the US like in WWII, things would be different, and even I, would serve again. But this war is not like that. Sheesh, it's not even like in 1991 when I was in Kuwait. It's a war for profit, and that is wrong all ways round.

War of profit? What kind of profit can 3000+ Americans show from the "financial ventures" of 9-11?

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by oloenneker



I wouldn't want to die for lies... I wouldn't want to miss my kids growing up for lies...

And you wouldn't either.


No one should. Thats what is so wrong about this war.

If there was a force against the US like in WWII, things would be different, and even I, would serve again. But this war is not like that. Sheesh, it's not even like in 1991 when I was in Kuwait. It's a war for profit, and that is wrong all ways round.

War of profit? What kind of profit can 3000+ Americans show from the "financial ventures" of 9-11?

Oh for the sake of Baphomet.... You are still in the dark about the profits made from 9/11/01?

3000+ died in 9/11

we are approaching 3000 dead US military, and over 58,000 injured and maimed... and I havent even begun to count the dead Iraqi's involved...

And yes, this is a war for profit, and it involves the control of the ME, which is a fountain of profit ....You know, Oil?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by oloenneker

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by oloenneker



I wouldn't want to die for lies... I wouldn't want to miss my kids growing up for lies...

And you wouldn't either.


No one should. Thats what is so wrong about this war.

If there was a force against the US like in WWII, things would be different, and even I, would serve again. But this war is not like that. Sheesh, it's not even like in 1991 when I was in Kuwait. It's a war for profit, and that is wrong all ways round.

War of profit? What kind of profit can 3000+ Americans show from the "financial ventures" of 9-11?

Oh for the sake of Baphomet.... You are still in the dark about the profits made from 9/11/01?

3000+ died in 9/11

we are approaching 3000 dead US military, and over 58,000 injured and maimed... and I havent even begun to count the dead Iraqi's involved...

And yes, this is a war for profit, and it involves the control of the ME, which is a fountain of profit ....You know, Oil?

More paranoia and conspiracy theory (with heavy emphasis on theory).

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by oloenneker

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by oloenneker



I wouldn't want to die for lies... I wouldn't want to miss my kids growing up for lies...

And you wouldn't either.


No one should. Thats what is so wrong about this war.

If there was a force against the US like in WWII, things would be different, and even I, would serve again. But this war is not like that. Sheesh, it's not even like in 1991 when I was in Kuwait. It's a war for profit, and that is wrong all ways round.

War of profit? What kind of profit can 3000+ Americans show from the "financial ventures" of 9-11?

Oh for the sake of Baphomet.... You are still in the dark about the profits made from 9/11/01?

3000+ died in 9/11

we are approaching 3000 dead US military, and over 58,000 injured and maimed... and I havent even begun to count the dead Iraqi's involved...

And yes, this is a war for profit, and it involves the control of the ME, which is a fountain of profit ....You know, Oil?

More paranoia and conspiracy theory (with heavy emphasis on theory).

Right, sure, how easy for you to dismiss it as such.... Call it whatever names you wish, but the facts are still the facts... Considering that this war is based on paranoia, I find it amusing that you would bring something up like that?

[cruller]

I listen to all propaganda right and left. I figure the true lies somewhere in the center.

Oh sure they did. There are a litney of examples where Rumsfield talked of a very short duration war.

There are even more examples of fabricated reasons to go to war. None of the reasons they used to justify the war turned out to be true.

How could anyone be motovated to give up everything they hold dear and possibly their own life for a lie?

It's a shame what these *******s have done to the image of our country.




Originally posted by bootlen
Originally posted by cruller
You know funny thing... When you tell a guy to give up everything, leave his family and risk his life because a mad man is about to get the bomb and nuke us oh and you'll be home in time for Christmas...

And then 4 years later none of it turned out to be true... you might wonder why in the hell you are over there. Further you might just begin to get a bad attitude and lose your want to be there.

In WWII there was no denying Pearl Harbor and they didn't fabricate Hitler... This **** in Iraq turned out to be all lies.

I wouldn't want to die for lies... I wouldn't want to miss my kids growing up for lies...

And you wouldn't either.

No one from W's administration ever made any of those promises. You been listening to some lib propaganda, dude.

[cruller]

OK then why don't you tell your side of the story.

Why are we there? How come all of the reasons that we went over were proven false.





More paranoia and conspiracy theory (with heavy emphasis on theory). [/B]

[tonys]

Clueless?

looking in the mirror, boot-tay???

answer THIS question, numb-nutz...WHY ARE THERE NO OTHER COUNTRIES GOING IN?
(including so-called muslum allies that G'Dub'Ya keeps talking about???)

...could it be a BAD BUSINESS MOVE for the U.S. companies (my employer included) that are cashing in BIG TIME on reconstruction contracts and oil&gas supply futures???

answer the MO-FO question - and quit being such as world-class-simpleton on this web-board (just once)

[bootlen]

Originally posted by tonys

Clueless?

I don't stutter.

looking in the mirror, boot-tay???

answer THIS question, numb-nutz...WHY ARE THERE NO OTHER COUNTRIES GOING IN?

Lack of nads.

(including so-called muslum allies that G'Dub'Ya keeps talking about???)

Same reason the so called "religion of peace" leaders and members do not even deride Muslim terrorist activities, wouldn't you suppose?

...could it be a BAD BUSINESS MOVE for the U.S. companies (my employer included) (Ronald MacDonald is movin' in there, huh?) that are cashing in BIG TIME on reconstruction contracts and oil&gas supply futures???

Cuz it ain't about the oil.

answer the MO-FO question - and quit being such as world-class-simpleton on this web-board (just once)

You mean just once MORE, doncha?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by cruller
OK then why don't you tell your side of the story.

Why are we there? How come all of the reasons that we went over were proven false.





More paranoia and conspiracy theory (with heavy emphasis on theory). [/B]

Actually, they were not. Too many of you jumped to conclusions. WMD's found, connection between al queda and Saddam proven.

Before ya post next time, ya might wanna have all the facts.

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by cruller
OK then why don't you tell your side of the story.

Why are we there? How come all of the reasons that we went over were proven false.





More paranoia and conspiracy theory (with heavy emphasis on theory).

Actually, they were not. Too many of you jumped to conclusions. WMD's found, connection between al queda and Saddam proven.

Before ya post next time, ya might wanna have all the facts. [/B]

You might want to have some of those facts handy there your self.

Prove the connection between Saddam and Al-Q? There is very little eveidence of that.

What WMD? Ok they found a SMALL cache of weapons that date to before 1991... Hmmm Thats not a "reconstituted Weapons Program" by any means. Nice try.

I guess you have a hard time realizing that this war is being fought on the pretenses of lies. I know it's hard when you are just another Bush-bot and believe anything or "dear Leader" tells you.

[geerair]

Originally posted by oloenneker

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by cruller
OK then why don't you tell your side of the story.

Why are we there? How come all of the reasons that we went over were proven false.





More paranoia and conspiracy theory (with heavy emphasis on theory).

Actually, they were not. Too many of you jumped to conclusions. WMD's found, connection between al queda and Saddam proven.

Before ya post next time, ya might wanna have all the facts.
You might want to have some of those facts handy there your self.

Prove the connection between Saddam and Al-Q? There is very little eveidence of that.

What WMD? Ok they found a SMALL cache of weapons that date to before 1991... Hmmm Thats not a "reconstituted Weapons Program" by any means. Nice try.

I guess you have a hard time realizing that this war is being fought on the pretenses of lies. I know it's hard when you are just another Bush-bot and believe anything or "dear Leader" tells you. [/B]Bootie thinks a few ancient, corroroded artillery shells constitutes stockpiles of WMD. Not even Bush was goofy enough to claim that even as desperate as he was to find the WMD. Hell, the millitary and the CIA poo-pooed it.

Al-Qaeda? Even the biggest booster of this fabrication, Cheney, has given up on it.


Bootie is known to believe in things that aren't there, so we can understand why he clings to these myths so rabidly.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by oloenneker

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by cruller
OK then why don't you tell your side of the story.

Why are we there? How come all of the reasons that we went over were proven false.





More paranoia and conspiracy theory (with heavy emphasis on theory).

Actually, they were not. Too many of you jumped to conclusions. WMD's found, connection between al queda and Saddam proven.

Before ya post next time, ya might wanna have all the facts.
You might want to have some of those facts handy there your self.

Prove the connection between Saddam and Al-Q? There is very little eveidence of that.

What WMD? Ok they found a SMALL cache of weapons that date to before 1991... Hmmm Thats not a "reconstituted Weapons Program" by any means. Nice try.

I guess you have a hard time realizing that this war is being fought on the pretenses of lies. I know it's hard when you are just another Bush-bot and believe anything or "dear Leader" tells you. Bootie thinks a few ancient, corroroded artillery shells constitutes stockpiles of WMD. Not even Bush was goofy enough to claim that even as desperate as he was to find the WMD. Hell, the millitary and the CIA poo-pooed it.

Al-Qaeda? Even the biggest booster of this fabrication, Cheney, has given up on it.


Bootie is known to believe in things that aren't there, so we can understand why he clings to these myths so rabidly. [/B]

Or....

it could be I have information that you do not.

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by oloenneker

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by cruller
OK then why don't you tell your side of the story.

Why are we there? How come all of the reasons that we went over were proven false.





More paranoia and conspiracy theory (with heavy emphasis on theory).

Actually, they were not. Too many of you jumped to conclusions. WMD's found, connection between al queda and Saddam proven.

Before ya post next time, ya might wanna have all the facts.
You might want to have some of those facts handy there your self.

Prove the connection between Saddam and Al-Q? There is very little eveidence of that.

What WMD? Ok they found a SMALL cache of weapons that date to before 1991... Hmmm Thats not a "reconstituted Weapons Program" by any means. Nice try.

I guess you have a hard time realizing that this war is being fought on the pretenses of lies. I know it's hard when you are just another Bush-bot and believe anything or "dear Leader" tells you. Bootie thinks a few ancient, corroroded artillery shells constitutes stockpiles of WMD. Not even Bush was goofy enough to claim that even as desperate as he was to find the WMD. Hell, the millitary and the CIA poo-pooed it.

Al-Qaeda? Even the biggest booster of this fabrication, Cheney, has given up on it.


Bootie is known to believe in things that aren't there, so we can understand why he clings to these myths so rabidly.

Or....

it could be I have information that you do not. [/B]


Hahahahaa... I didnt know you where a comedian as well...

[cruller]

You are so clueless I don't even know where to start.

On the WMD front... they found exactly nothing. ****in' Tenent admitted as much and then resigned from the CIA to 'spend more time with his family.'

Everything these cocksuckers said to get us into that war has been proven a lie. And the only honerable man associated with this bunch of crimminals (Powell) quit...

Our involvement over there has made Iraq a worse place to live, it has dimished the US standing in the world, it's damn near bankrupted the tresury, and it's put the US military in such a weak position we can't do **** about the countries that do have WMD; Korea and Iran.

What the hell Iran - Iraq... only missed by one letter.




Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by cruller
OK then why don't you tell your side of the story.

Why are we there? How come all of the reasons that we went over were proven false.





More paranoia and conspiracy theory (with heavy emphasis on theory).

Actually, they were not. Too many of you jumped to conclusions. WMD's found, connection between al queda and Saddam proven.

Before ya post next time, ya might wanna have all the facts. [/B]

[geerair]

Originally posted by bootlen
Or....

it could be I have information that you do not. Yes bootie, we know all about your secret decoder ring and your Junior G-Man badge.

[hvacbear]

I have some questions about some good questions on Iraq. First let me say there has been some interesting debate on Iraq, and I am asking these questions honestly and not sarcastically.

The question was asked how come we did not find WMD in Iraq?

1. The question I have is how could we expect to find them?
Syria ,which incidentally has one of the larges chemical weapons stockpiles in the world, borders Iraq and since we know Saddam had and used chemical weapons where might they have went? (Hint starts with an “S” ends with a “yria”)

2. How do we know Iraq was involved with Al Qaeda/terrorists?

It seems funny that since we took the fight to Iraq that we have had no successful attacks here since 9-11. (Don’t say it is increases airport vigilance) I guess in the end we don’t know that Al Qaeda/terrorists existed or exist in Iraq. Those nightly mortar and missile attacks in Iraq where are they coming from?
I like the Pearl Harbor comparison we took the fight to Japan and they attacked us once and have not attacked us again. Now we are fighting Al Qaeda/terrorists on their home turf and so far they have not attacked us again.

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by hvacbear
I have some questions about some good questions on Iraq. First let me say there has been some interesting debate on Iraq, and I am asking these questions honestly and not sarcastically.

The question was asked how come we did not find WMD in Iraq?

1. The question I have is how could we expect to find them?
Syria ,which incidentally has one of the larges chemical weapons stockpiles in the world, borders Iraq and since we know Saddam had and used chemical weapons where might they have went? (Hint starts with an “S” ends with a “yria”)

2. How do we know Iraq was involved with Al Qaeda/terrorists?

It seems funny that since we took the fight to Iraq that we have had no successful attacks here since 9-11. (Don’t say it is increases airport vigilance) I guess in the end we don’t know that Al Qaeda/terrorists existed or exist in Iraq. Those nightly mortar and missile attacks in Iraq where are they coming from?
I like the Pearl Harbor comparison we took the fight to Japan and they attacked us once and have not attacked us again. Now we are fighting Al Qaeda/terrorists on their home turf and so far they have not attacked us again.



To put it bluntly, you are comparing apples to oranges. Japan was about politics, this battle isn't. Trying to occupy the "sacred" land of these "nuts" will not stop anything. They will just find somewhere else to multiply and wreak havoc. Japan realized that you better pick your enemies wisely. These people(muslim fundamentalists) don't pick their enemies, they believe a higher power does.

[hvacbear]

This was compaired to Japan a little earler,and
you make a good point Japan was an organized military with structure. They could actually send someone who represented them to surender.

The terrorists are not unified and are motivated by religion. They must simply be eliminated since as you correctly pointed out they will just jump around as we pursue.This is a battle that will not be easy or quick.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by seatonheating

Originally posted by hvacbear
I have some questions about some good questions on Iraq. First let me say there has been some interesting debate on Iraq, and I am asking these questions honestly and not sarcastically.

The question was asked how come we did not find WMD in Iraq?

1. The question I have is how could we expect to find them?
Syria ,which incidentally has one of the larges chemical weapons stockpiles in the world, borders Iraq and since we know Saddam had and used chemical weapons where might they have went? (Hint starts with an “S” ends with a “yria”)

2. How do we know Iraq was involved with Al Qaeda/terrorists?

It seems funny that since we took the fight to Iraq that we have had no successful attacks here since 9-11. (Don’t say it is increases airport vigilance) I guess in the end we don’t know that Al Qaeda/terrorists existed or exist in Iraq. Those nightly mortar and missile attacks in Iraq where are they coming from?
I like the Pearl Harbor comparison we took the fight to Japan and they attacked us once and have not attacked us again. Now we are fighting Al Qaeda/terrorists on their home turf and so far they have not attacked us again.



To put it bluntly, you are comparing apples to oranges. Japan was about politics, this battle isn't. Trying to occupy the "sacred" land of these "nuts" will not stop anything. They will just find somewhere else to multiply and wreak havoc. Japan realized that you better pick your enemies wisely. These people(muslim fundamentalists) don't pick their enemies, they believe a higher power does.

In case you missed the memo. Their sacred land is the earth and they want us off of it.

[daytonafan]

First, some facts....

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2004/04/operation_iraqi.html

Now for Olo and Geer's information...

Notice the news agency that supplies the following article...Hmmmmmm....

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/07A763C2-1654-47F5-AA2B-BD6166CDD7D5.htm

I guess it all depends on who you talk to. There is a Marine on this forum who was there and was proud to fight. All of you arm chair Colonels on here "know someone there"...

If this is such an unpopular war why did Bush smoke Kerry's ass by 4 million votes? Unpopular, stupid, frat boy, hurricane causing, oil rich, tax cuttin' presidents should lose elections. Oh, I forgot, it was the voting machines. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[acmanko]

daytona, take the foil hat off now, the radiation is frying what brain you have left, we need you to be here next week and the week after etc, etc, etc.

[daytonafan]

Originally posted by acmanko
daytona, take the foil hat off now, the radiation is frying what brain you have left, we need you to be here next week and the week after etc, etc, etc.

So you can't argue logically then. Have to result to insults? Too bad for you.

[acmanko]

60% of the population thinks a mistake was made, 20 % are die hard busies the other 20% are more concerned with other things. This rug has been beat thread bare

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by James 3528

Originally posted by seatonheating

Originally posted by hvacbear
I have some questions about some good questions on Iraq. First let me say there has been some interesting debate on Iraq, and I am asking these questions honestly and not sarcastically.

The question was asked how come we did not find WMD in Iraq?

1. The question I have is how could we expect to find them?
Syria ,which incidentally has one of the larges chemical weapons stockpiles in the world, borders Iraq and since we know Saddam had and used chemical weapons where might they have went? (Hint starts with an “S” ends with a “yria”)

2. How do we know Iraq was involved with Al Qaeda/terrorists?

It seems funny that since we took the fight to Iraq that we have had no successful attacks here since 9-11. (Don’t say it is increases airport vigilance) I guess in the end we don’t know that Al Qaeda/terrorists existed or exist in Iraq. Those nightly mortar and missile attacks in Iraq where are they coming from?
I like the Pearl Harbor comparison we took the fight to Japan and they attacked us once and have not attacked us again. Now we are fighting Al Qaeda/terrorists on their home turf and so far they have not attacked us again.



To put it bluntly, you are comparing apples to oranges. Japan was about politics, this battle isn't. Trying to occupy the "sacred" land of these "nuts" will not stop anything. They will just find somewhere else to multiply and wreak havoc. Japan realized that you better pick your enemies wisely. These people(muslim fundamentalists) don't pick their enemies, they believe a higher power does.

In case you missed the memo. Their sacred land is the earth and they want us off of it.

True, guess we'll have to move to the moon then huh?

With that reasoning, what can we ever do then?