Europe is mad at us.

[printer2]

Refusal to join bailout leaves Canada, U.S. as only countries in G20 not committed to IMF fund

Germany is expressing its irritation with Canada for refusing to contribute to an international bailout fund as Prime Minister Stephen Harper faces increased pressure from the G20 to show "solidarity" with countries tackling Europe's financial crisis.

Canada is on track to be one of two G20 nations not offering a specific amount to the International Monetary Fund as it tries to raise at least $430-billion to draw on in case any members need a financial rescue.

Almost all G20 members - with the exception of Canada and the United States - have said they will announce specific pledges in Los Cabos, and some amounts have been reported already. Japan, for instance, is expected to offer $60-billion, Saudi Arabia $15-billion and Australia $7-billion.

Germany, the strongest economy in the EU, is expressing concern over Canada's repeated assertions that its taxpayers should not "bail out" Europe.

In an interview with The Globe and Mail, Germany's ambassador to Canada, Georg Witschel, said Canada should realize that the entire global economy will be at risk if the European economy falters.

http://aol.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/aolstory/TGAM/20120608/NWG20ECON0608ATL

So are we risking the global economy by not contributing?

[DeltaT]

This specific bail-out, as I understand it, is plain and simple a reward for irresponsible actions by certain parties in the world.

The USA nor Canada started this new way of living but we have also bought into this lifestyle.

The new moral world we live in dictates that anyone, anywhere can live and do whatever they want to the extent that it makes them "feel" good at other expenses.

And "we", the others, are suppose to ........not only suppose to but we are expected to run to their aid at our expense to further justify their childiness and irresponsibility.

A recent example of how this works and how foolish I am. A local church that is obama based - using the only term that seems to fit - did not take care of their pneumatic controls as I have told them to do for the past 15 years. They simply never drained the air compressor storage tank as I have directed them to do over that period of time.

The week before Easter I received a call that water was squirting out of everywhere, including the wall thermostats. The entire system is now contaminated with water.

So they call me to solve their irresponsible problems at my cost. A good deal of their members are unemployed due to obama. And a good deal of their budget is gone for repairs as not many have the money to give to the church. But they need help from a person who has to work every day based on responsibility of making at least more then I spend.

So I, the responsible one, worked about 30 hours in draining, repairing and/or replacing the controls and lines. I got most of the water out but the controls will continue to fail because of the contamination.

They don't have the money to pay for their irresponsibility. And they continue to support the policies that Europe and obama preach and act on. But who footed the majority of the bill?

Yep, I did. Now we are being asked to foot the bill for those who want to continue on with their childess and irresponsible way of life.

No lesson will be learned. And no penality will be lived with for them so they will continue to take us all down with them.

[Six]

http://aol.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/aolstory/TGAM/20120608/NWG20ECON0608ATL

So are we risking the global economy by not contributing?

The assumption that another hundred billion or 500 billion will ever make the socialist experiment successful is just naive.

It's kicking the can down the road and not dealing with the issue by letting the IMF bail out Countries that refuse austerity

Greece's failure should be held up as an example to the rest of the world of the effects of statism and how a centralized government that overpowers and over tax's it's private sector should at all cost be avoided.

Sure there is Spain, Italy and Ireland but read up on some of the benefits the state workers of greece enjoyed before that house of cards collapsed.

[DeltaT]

I heard an accurate expersion on the radio yesterday about these events.

"They are running out of other peoples money to maintain their lifestyle."

Sounds about right to me.

[printer2]

The social experiment seems to work in Germany but then again they have the income to pay for it. The problem was that they had too much money which they lent to the lesser economies without enough diligence on the ability to pay back. The Mediterranean countries (mainly) used the money to support their economies but did not put enough effort to make them efficient.

Which is all water under the bridge. There is talk now that if Europe implodes that the downturn we went through and are just starting to get out of will look like a walk in the park. This could sideswipe us even though we are half way across the world. It is very concerning.

[DeltaT]

The social experiment seems to work in Germany but then again they have the income to pay for it. The problem was that they had too much money which they lent to the lesser economies without enough diligence on the ability to pay back. The Mediterranean countries (mainly) used the money to support their economies but did not put enough effort to make them efficient.

Which is all water under the bridge. There is talk now that if Europe implodes that the downturn we went through and are just starting to get out of will look like a walk in the park. This could sideswipe us even though we are half way across the world. It is very concerning.

I totally agree. I think the worst is in front of us. And I think we will not see it coming.

BTW, the last Salsa cruise I was on had three ladies from Germany. They told me that things were not so good financially in Germany and that we Americans did not realize how really bad things were there financially.

Their history tends to warn them of the rich getting richer and taking over control over the citizens that are left. That is what happened to Germany during Hitler and they said they are afraid of any signs of that happening again..except they never used the word Hitler. I think that is verboten for them psychological.

[k-fridge]

I stopped giving a damn about what Europe thinks a long time ago.

[oil lp man]

Make my children go into even more debt than they can ever pay, for some lazy Greek?
I don't think so!
We get 2 weeks vacation a year and retire at 67 or so.
They get 6 or 8 weeks vacation and retire at 55 or so.
I don't feel so charitable to lazy sloths.

[printer2]

Make my children go into even more debt than they can ever pay, for some lazy Greek?
I don't think so!
We get 2 weeks vacation a year and retire at 67 or so.
They get 6 or 8 weeks vacation and retire at 55 or so.
I don't feel so charitable to lazy sloths.

When I was younger I had the body of a Greek god, now I have the body of a goddamn Greek. :gah:



I am not too concerned about their lifestyle taking a drop. I am concerned when they start having to consume less which reduces the world economy and sends a whole lot of us out of work.

[Six]

The social experiment seems to work in Germany but then again they have the income to pay for it. The problem was that they had too much money which they lent to the lesser economies without enough diligence on the ability to pay back. The Mediterranean countries (mainly) used the money to support their economies but did not put enough effort to make them efficient.

Which is all water under the bridge. There is talk now that if Europe implodes that the downturn we went through and are just starting to get out of will look like a walk in the park. This could sideswipe us even though we are half way across the world. It is very concerning.

Ask a German how well their experiment is working.

I think their income taxes top out around 50 % and they have a sales tax AND a VAT tax. Add to that enormous taxs on energy and fuel.

Gas is about 8 bucks a gallon. And depending on your income you could be forking over 75% of every dollar to the government.

Doesnt sound like its working to me.

Also do you know what their corporate tax is ? 15%

Ours is 35%

[DeltaT]

Ask a German how well their experiment is working.

I think their income taxes top out around 50 % and they have a sales tax AND a VAT tax. Add to that enormous taxs on energy and fuel.

Gas is about 8 bucks a gallon. And depending on your income you could be forking over 75% of every dollar to the government.

Doesnt sound like its working to me.

Also do you know what their corporate tax is ? 15%

Ours is 35%

That's what these ladies were talking about but they did talk as if that was normal. But they did not or do not have any of the opportunities we have here. And I asked one of them how in the world they make a living with most of their money being taken away from them.

I think Europeans have never experienced our countries ability to create opportunites for ourselves and our communities. They seem to have an attitude that what they get is the best they can do.

[Six]

Its generations of compliance to the only system they've known. Whats left is systemic complacency.

The 2008 crash was far worse than a lot of people realize. Its effects and consequences were global. We were literally days away from absolute economic collapse with banks all over the world ready to declare massive losses on the same day.

I read an article that taljed about instituting martial law that following monday after the crash in America.

I guess if you're forced to look on the bright side the one thing it accomplished was to expose corrupt socialist governments like Greece.

It exposed the ultimate economic fallacy of socialist systems.

Countries that borrowed and spent to excess couldn't be saved but now all of those Greek Bonds sitting in banks all over the world are threatening any kind of recovery.

Now we're left with a President who wants to repeat their bad example. 5 trillion in 4 years.

A suspicious person might wonder if Obamas goal all along was to do irrepairable harm to our economic system.

[tunnel_rat]

If Europe is truly mad at us, goodness I'm sorry. Tell 'em to go pound sand. Why do I give a spit.

[DeltaT]

A suspicious person might wonder if Obamas goal all along was to do irrepairable harm to our economic system.

I don't believe his goal is to ruin us although that is exactly what he is doing.

His between-the-ears goal is to make him our ruler, king, leader, whatever over all of his worshipers. It's that simple.

He's simply stupid in a brilliant way which leads to almost unrepairable harm to all of us, even his followers but they are too blinded to see.

His followers can rationalize most anything to do with him as history has proven. Most of them will never and can never change. That is why adults are suppose to make decisions for children because just about all of their decisions are based on feelings..the feelings of them getting and hearing only what they want.

[printer2]

Ask a German how well their experiment is working.

I think their income taxes top out around 50 % and they have a sales tax AND a VAT tax. Add to that enormous taxs on energy and fuel.

Gas is about 8 bucks a gallon. And depending on your income you could be forking over 75% of every dollar to the government.

Doesnt sound like its working to me.

Also do you know what their corporate tax is ? 15%

Ours is 35%
How is it working? Well they have the fourth-largest economy in the world, the powerhouse of Europe. Unemployment rate of 5.5%, in 2011 a deficit at 1 percent. How you doing?

[printer2]

If Europe is truly mad at us, goodness I'm sorry. Tell 'em to go pound sand. Why do I give a spit.

Them being mad is not the issue, what is, is the reason why. They want help to contain a meltdown. In 2008 we did not see things coming, is it coming again and will we be caught with our pants down again? If it hits there will be no stimulus spending to lesson the impact this time around. So ask yourself with the thought that 2008 was just a prequel, do you give a spit?

[DeltaT]

Um, Printer, you entirely overlook the fact that those folks over there........yes, overthere have been totally irresponsible for years in the management of their money and country. And now that they cry we are suppose to send them my money that I worked for and, with what I can keep, spend and invest responsibility.

I know. I know. It's all about making people feel good. Thought I take the time to answer for you. And, BTW, I'm sure your facts and figures are accurate about Germany but the street folks I got to talk to directly says that's no so.

So I wonder who's point of view is more accurate.

I grew up, and I use that term loosely, with the statment said to me many times that "You made your bed, now lie down in it."

But that's not the way the new world works. It's all for one and one for all as long as my money holds out for them.

[blitz]

can't they just send some panzer like they did in the 40s? I agree to bail out europe, as long as I get a piece of ownership of ibiza or french riviera or monaco. and have some spaniards play flamenco non stop live in my house. and some french maid to dust, and some greeks goddes to feed me grapes. and some red headed irish lassies. so yea how much?

[printer2]

Um, Printer, you entirely overlook the fact that those folks over there........yes, overthere have been totally irresponsible for years in the management of their money and country. And now that they cry we are suppose to send them my money that I worked for and, with what I can keep, spend and invest responsibility.

I know. I know. It's all about making people feel good. Thought I take the time to answer for you. And, BTW, I'm sure your facts and figures are accurate about Germany but the street folks I got to talk to directly says that's no so.

So I wonder who's point of view is more accurate.

I grew up, and I use that term loosely, with the statment said to me many times that "You made your bed, now lie down in it."

But that's not the way the new world works. It's all for one and one for all as long as my money holds out for them.

Oh no I did not overlook the fact. You need to look at what Germany went through with the unification of West and East and the transformation of their combined economy. They took steps to integrate a strong and a weak economy and came out the top of all the European countries.

I have relatives in Germany and from the sound of it I probably would not want to live there. But with everything, everything is relative. The man on the street may not be as happy as they were a few years ago, actually before 2008. The whole world got a rude awakening. The Germans found that they can not afford all that they thought they could have, but then again so did we. Life was good for you guys also before 2008, ask the man on the U.S. street the same questions and you would probably get the same answer. In terms of European countries Germany is not doing bad, They do have a socialist state and they have to pay for it some way, at least they have been paying their own way with higher taxes rather than borrowing like the other countries.

No, I do not want to send my money to them. Our Prime Minister said the same thing, don't really care for the guy but in some things we agree. We went through a painful time getting our finances in order here in the 90's, no help from anyone else. I am not expecting us to send them money, not really my point with the original post. Mainly to catch a few people's attention since many of you do not take much notice of events outside your shores, mind you that might be more the media's fault.

[texas cooler]

I don't believe his goal is to ruin us although that is exactly what he is doing.

I believe he is deliberately destroying the US to drop us down a few pegs and make us pay for all the wealth that we have "stolen" from the poor countries of the world.

[DeltaT]

I believe he is deliberately destroying the US to drop us down a few pegs and make us pay for all the wealth that we have "stolen" from the poor countries of the world.

I agree with that too. In his "share the wealth" mind and policy he lowers all of us to the same level where the one's, like himself, who have not had to participate in the "share the wealth" program get to control all of us.

[oil lp man]

When I was younger I had the body of a Greek god, now I have the body of a goddamn Greek. :gah:



I am not too concerned about their lifestyle taking a drop. I am concerned when they start having to consume less which reduces the world economy and sends a whole lot of us out of work.

Sounds like loser economics to me.
Are you from planet earth?
I know the whole world economy...
Let it drop. I don't care anymore. I'm not paying another cent to bail out another stupid fu..

[printer2]

Sounds like loser economics to me.
Are you from planet earth?

So you do not think that when they tighten up their belts we will not feel it? That our economies are insulated from them?

[oil lp man]

Don't care anymore let it drop. Better now than later.

[DeltaT]

It's not about consumption, consumption, consumption. I think, in my own little world, that the US created this "consumption for the sake of consumption" wonderland standard way of living of which you speak.

I noticed it first when almost every childs bedroom had a TV in it. And the parents starting building custom built houses with not only a two car garage but a one car much larger garage so they could store there RV.

Those were some of the signs that said spoiled kids and too much money to spend were entering our society.

Creativity and utility is what a healthy civilazation builds a solid base on and around. Building things of QUALITY that last long and need maintenance and repair, of course.

Yep, the good old "Good & Services" industry which we all use to be a part of. It's no more and hasn't been since the 80's or so. Now it's spend, spend, spend. Not work hard, save some and buy and use what you need.

I mean, just look at the stupidy of the people now running our government. Not one official has even got close to bringing up the subject of reduced spending balanced by wise saving as well as getting out of the lives and pockets of all the companies, especially the small ones, across this nation so we, the people, can create again........which creates jobs, strong communites and a strong self sufficient society. Notice the words "self sufficient" - a term seldom used or understood anymore.

This is my short version............

[ga-hvac-tech]

I believe he is deliberately destroying the US to drop us down a few pegs and make us pay for all the wealth that we have "stolen" from the poor countries of the world.


I agree with that too. In his "share the wealth" mind and policy he lowers all of us to the same level where the one's, like himself, who have not had to participate in the "share the wealth" program get to control all of us.

This came across my Email box a few days ago... was gonna start a new thread at ARP... however this seems a good place to put it:

An extremely important movie is coming this summer -
Dinesh D'Souza -Obama & 2016

Dinesh D'Souza is author of many New York Times best sellers. The
movie is from Gerald R. Molen, producer of Academy Award Winning
Schindler's List, Jurassic Park, and Braveheart. It explains in plain
language who Barack Obama really is, what he stands for, and the
dangers of him being reelected for another four years.

Watch this 14 minute video preview of this movie which came out
Feb.28, 2012 and share it with others. It has already been seen by
over 290,000 people. Within a very short time it will have been seen
by millions.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Z6QOscKvUjU?rel=0 ;

Movie should be interesting, plan to see it!!!

[ga-hvac-tech]

So you do not think that when they tighten up their belts we will not feel it? That our economies are insulated from them?

I think a child that is hooked on candy... needs to be weaned... or they will develop type 2 diabetes. Which is the right thing to do: Give the kid candy because he wants it... KNOWING the result; OR; take away the candy so the kid will learn to eat his veggies and fresh fruit.

As to the 'fear' of the world economy going soft because we do not bail out Europe... well I am not worried in the slightest. Governments like to cry wolf any time they think they can use fear to get into folks wallets.

IMO the world wold be better off if we did not trust govts and all their crying wolf all the time.

[ga-hvac-tech]

It's not about consumption, consumption, consumption. I think, in my own little world, that the US created this "consumption for the sake of consumption" wonderland standard way of living of which you speak.

I noticed it first when almost every childs bedroom had a TV in it. And the parents starting building custom built houses with not only a two car garage but a one car much larger garage so they could store there RV.

Those were some of the signs that said spoiled kids and too much money to spend were entering our society.

Creativity and utility is what a healthy civilazation builds a solid base on and around. Building things of QUALITY that last long and need maintenance and repair, of course.

Yep, the good old "Good & Services" industry which we all use to be a part of. It's no more and hasn't been since the 80's or so. Now it's spend, spend, spend. Not work hard, save some and buy and use what you need.

I mean, just look at the stupidy of the people now running our government. Not one official has even got close to bringing up the subject of reduced spending balanced by wise saving as well as getting out of the lives and pockets of all the companies, especially the small ones, across this nation so we, the people, can create again........which creates jobs, strong communites and a strong self sufficient society. Notice the words "self sufficient" - a term seldom used or understood anymore.

This is my short version............

How does a govt increase its control of everything if they let folks be self-sufficient? NO, IMO the govt does NOT want the citizens to take care of themselves... the govt wants as many citizens as possible dependent like little immature children on the govt... :gah:

[DeltaT]

How does a govt increase its control of everything if they let folks be self-sufficient? NO, IMO the govt does NOT want the citizens to take care of themselves... the govt wants as many citizens as possible dependent like little immature children on the govt... :gah:

And I totally agree based on today's government and run by what's his face and his followers. But that has not been the case in the past 200 plus years.

Believe it or not and with even the worst president in our history not considering what's his face, well, all presidents before attempted to follow the ideals of the Constution to the best of their ability. Didn't say they did the best in the mind of every American..and didn't say they watched out for their own interest -- but typically not at the cost of the entire USA.

The real government, before what's his face, did move this country along for good or bad and pretty much allowed us, each individual, to persue each citizen to their own efforts and abilities to make their dreams come true. Many failed, many succeded. Such is the way of the American.

The ability to try and fail is just as important to try and succeed. It's our choice afforded us by some pretty smart people who built and completed the Constitution. And their historic view point came from living and/or experiencing what it is like to live in and under a country such as what's his face is turning this country into.

The question remains: Will the voting citizens of this country mature enought to see that individual freedoms within the group law (we are a Replubic guided by law and not by a democracy vote) is the method of choice, as it has been for the past 200 plus years, or do they believe, as children do, that's they not only need an organization such as the Federal Government to not only take care of them but to also make their decisions?

We will find out in November.

[printer2]

I think a child that is hooked on candy... needs to be weaned... or they will develop type 2 diabetes. Which is the right thing to do: Give the kid candy because he wants it... KNOWING the result; OR; take away the candy so the kid will learn to eat his veggies and fresh fruit.

As to the 'fear' of the world economy going soft because we do not bail out Europe... well I am not worried in the slightest. Governments like to cry wolf any time they think they can use fear to get into folks wallets.

IMO the world wold be better off if we did not trust govts and all their crying wolf all the time.

I am not saying that we should bail them out, I am just saying that we might have a couple of bad years ahead of us, maybe even a lost decade. Most of the growth we have had since 2000 has been artificial stimulated by tax cuts and government spending which basically translates as debt. Either the debt has to start being paid back or the lenders end up getting shafted, maybe a bit of both.

Which is good in the long term but in the short term it will probably translate into companies scaling back, people loosing jobs, might even push us into another recession. This is not the governments crying wolf, they would rather not deal with it and let sleeping dogs lie. More the lenders asking for their money, banks not having cash on hand to cover it, people concerned for their savings disappearing so they withdraw what they can. Unlike your Fed, the Europeans are not allowed to just print money, actually the powers that be can but they say they will not. In the end Germany will probably bail out Spain and the rest, or they might just let the whole thing come crashing down.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I am not saying that we should bail them out, I am just saying that we might have a couple of bad years ahead of us, maybe even a lost decade. Most of the growth we have had since 2000 has been artificial stimulated by tax cuts and government spending which basically translates as debt. Either the debt has to start being paid back or the lenders end up getting shafted, maybe a bit of both.

Which is good in the long term but in the short term it will probably translate into companies scaling back, people loosing jobs, might even push us into another recession. This is not the governments crying wolf, they would rather not deal with it and let sleeping dogs lie. More the lenders asking for their money, banks not having cash on hand to cover it, people concerned for their savings disappearing so they withdraw what they can. Unlike your Fed, the Europeans are not allowed to just print money, actually the powers that be can but they say they will not. In the end Germany will probably bail out Spain and the rest, or they might just let the whole thing come crashing down.

I would argue this has been the case since the 1960's... albeit not as severe as the last 15-20 years.

Markets work well, ONLY if they are left alone to work. The result is not as 'GRAND' as govt fiddling... however the price for govt fiddling is what we are living through now.

So we have a choice:
On the one hand, we can have a society of instant gratification with no economic common sense... with severe ups and downs... or
We can have a society with less materialism and more stability.

Which one sounds better?

Yes, to 'repair' the damage... we need a soft economy for a while (maybe a LONG while). However: Can one put a bandaid on a deep wound with shrapnel in it? No, the would must be opened, the foreign object(s) removed, and the wound must then heat at its own pace. To short-change this process in the economy is to invite another mess later.

I would rather live through a soft economy now, for a stable life later... but then I am old enough to appreciate stability.

[DeltaT]

The one new world order that has not been talked about is the fact that we, us old responsible hard working people, are of a diminishing gereration who thinks and acts the way ga-hvac-tech talks about.

The new generation, the supporters of thinkers such as obama and all the others around the world like him, want and believe in instant gratification simply because that is what they have been raised in and are use to over the past 20 plus years.

And I don't see them growing up anytime soon. How can they? They are already in leadership rolls in this world and in this country. They have only learned one method of how their world operates since they were raised by our generation. And I don't see how they can change.

This person, obama, may not retain the Presidents seat this November but all those that support him and will vote for him will still be out there waiting to put back into place everything that he and they stand for and believe in. So, most likely, we will be right back into the same problem the next election after this upcoming one.

The course for this world and country has been set in place at least two generations ago and I don't think those in charge or those voters of the newer generations have any clue anything is incorrect or wrong as long as they get what they want when they want it.

[Six]

The one new world order that has not been talked about is the fact that we, us old responsible hard working people, are of a diminishing gereration who thinks and acts the way ga-hvac-tech talks about.

The new generation, the supporters of thinkers such as obama and all the others around the world like him, want and believe in instant gratification simply because that is what they have been raised in and are use to over the past 20 plus years.

And I don't see them growing up anytime soon. How can they? They are already in
leadership rolls in this world and in this country. They have only learned one method of how their world operates since they were raised by our generation. And I don't see how they can change.

This person, obama, may not retain the Presidents seat this November but all those that support him and will vote for him will still be out there waiting to put back into place everything that he and they stand for and believe in. So, most likely, we will be right back into the same problem the next election after this upcoming one.

The course for this world and country has been set in place at least two generations ago and I don't think those in charge or those voters of the newer generations have any clue anything is incorrect or wrong as long as they get what they want when they want it.

Its going to take a cultural reset to change the attitudes of the entitlment generation..

A profound event like a great war or a great depression that forces people to revisit whats necessary. Whats important.

Throughout history we've been forced back into a position of humility.

[DeltaT]

Its going to take a cultural reset to change the attitudes of the entitlment generation..

A profound event like a great war or a great depression that forces people to revisit whats necessary. Whats important.

Throughout history we've been forced back into a position of humility.

I just hope we don't have to do the 40 year thing again.

[the mojo]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-14/central-banks-warn-greek-led-euro-stress-threatens-world.html

And this is why the magic spending spigot of the land once known as success,must end.

Cuts in government spending must be taken with the utmost thought.

This is not going to wait until after some national election.

Congress must be brought to full session,before the house of cards come a tumbling down.

The longer they kick the can down the road,the worse its going to get.

The secret lies with Merkel.Time to scatter the deck chairs,when the music stops will there be any more chairs left?