I have a question for YOU homeowners.......

[Irishmist]

It is great that there is a site such as this that you can access a variety of information that you cannot access anywhere else. Information here is NOT necessarily what you would find on a manufacturer's site, NOT necessarily what you would find on any particular dealer's site, and certainly NOT necessarily what you would find on a BBB or other such site. This is a forum that enables you to pose real everyday questions and concerns and get a response from hundreds of qualified professionals at ONE location! If you have ever been here before then you know the reasons why we don't respond to DIY or pricing questions. It is not because we couldn't, it's NOT IN YOUR BEST INTEREST! If all you want to know is "how much, how much" then most of the professionals here will probably not even offer a response. What we do, as professionals in our field of endeavor, is much important to us, and therefore should be to you, to simply attach a dollar figure to it. That is part of the PROCESS; not the end all, cure all.

Indoor air quality, dehumidification, temperature control, are all areas that would be addressed when a professional provides you with their services.

What are YOUR expectations when you make an inquiry and an appointment is set for either service or a proposal? You know what our expectations are if you have viewed this site at all. I want to know (and honestly, so that we can truly do a better job for YOU) what is important to YOU! What is your level of expectation. If we don't know what it is, then the possibility is greatly increased that we will fail and you will be disappointed.

I know what I expect when I call for service or a proposal in areas I am not familiar with. I have certain expectations of the individual, the company, and the product. What are Yours? All the best, John.

[jdb52]

John,
I have lurked and posted here, as a homeowner, for about six months. My answer to your question would be that the first thing I want when developing a relationship with an HVAC company or professional is the creation within me of a sense of trust.
I want to know that the person or company I am dealing with has the knowledge, time and willingness to diagnose my needs and them perform for me, and then has the ability to accurately judge what the service is worth in the marketplace. That's it. I can take it from there. If pricing gives me a little "sticker shock", I can still make judgements as to whether or not, it reflects current value. That's just a matter of getting a few bids and comparing. Price is an issue, but it's not paramount. Stuff costs what it costs. If your getting fair value, you either buy it or not.
In my community, a rather small city, I guess, we still have the "luxury" of the old days where word of mouth, pride of workmanship, and fairness still have play. So, we judge character, competence and price in that order.
Having said that, in my experience, once you've got the character and experience issue settled, then you have those who are little proud of that (they do great work and stand behind their work but pricing is above market) and those whose pricing reflects the marketplace a little better. I go with the latter. I have never found character/competence and lowball pricing in the same person.
Don't know if this is what you were asking for, but I hope it helps. By the way, great site

jdb

[core]

I look for people to give me advice so that when I get hurt doing something that I shouldn’t be I can sue them and the site.

Just like the people that sue tobacco companies when they get lung cancer from smoking.

Did I answer the question?

Core

[wendel]

A little less paranoia.

[hvac hero]

John are you lobbying for a associates position? or just the unofficial spokesperson for the site? lol

[coolwhip]

This is a good post By J.L. Please let the home owners reply. Its always helpful as a business owner to hear feed back. :)

[bertrand]

For us homeowners this site has raised our expections very high - maybe too high.

I would say that a number the pros who post frequently on this site have set the bar very high for the other "regular contractors" we honw owner try to find in our area.

The pros here talk about doing Manual J's and Manual D's, using mastic to seal ducts, top end installs, top end equipment, and so on and so on.

My guess is this kind of top end approach occurs in less than 5% of all residential contractors – making some of us homeowners who spend some time on this site with too high of expectations and ultimately disappointed with the service we do get.

You could blame many consumers who want a quick and cheap solution to our HVAC needs (wallmart approach) – or that in some areas (like mine) that HVAC contractors are so busy and have so much work they do not need to provide all the high end services.

In addition, along this “high expectations” are on the equipment mentioned on this site. Sometimes a particular system in mentioned here as having features that are “phenomenal” (like low sound) when in fact most new system if properly sized and installed all do about the same.


[Edited by bertrand on 07-16-2006 at 05:41 PM]

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by bertrand
My guess is this kind of top end approach occurs in less than 5% of all residential contractors – making some of us homeowners who spend some time on this site with too high of expectations and ultimately disappointed with the service we do get.

And to your sir I think your exactly right and as I have said here before, I would love to be a fly on the wall on some of the jobs these contractors that come here and have a zero tolerance to anything but perfection push, well I only know of one perfect person and he was a carpenter not an a/c man.
And for your expectations to be in the other 95% would be more in the real world of this business, I live in Houston a city of 4 million folks and hundreds of a/c company's and I see 99% of the time even with new installs jobs that could have been done better, but hey we in "Houston" are so over worked right now I don't see how in the world the system is even running when we leave a new install. I guess if you are a one man company and your desire is to check everything from amps to sub cooling to duct work to hell everything else and you have the time hey go for it for all the rest of us that have to make a living we go out in good faith and try the best we can to repair the a/c and move on and not set your home up in our little "Laboratory" mind while were there, I just wished I had that much time I would do a lot more fishing and not working my veins pump God given blood not freon and I love what I do but my family comes first not my business and I have told all my customers that for 30 years and have received nothing but good feedback because of that statement.

[core]

Originally posted by bertrand
For us homeowners this site has raised our expections very high - maybe too high.

I would say that a number the pros who post frequently on this site have set the bar very high for the other "regular contractors" we honw owner try to find in our area.



This reminds me of a quote I heard once.

“Farming is easy when your 1000 miles away from a corn field and your pen is your plow “

Kinda like HVAC, I can tell you how to solve any problem when budget and really world situation are a non issue from my computer.

Core

[jammer13]

I've been a lurking homeowner on this site for awhile now, and this question got me thinking. One of the values of this site is that there is plenty of consumer education that can be had for homeowners getting ready to get a new AC system or whatever. I would think contractors would want to deal with informed consumers, or maybe that would be an interesting topic in itself.

First off, I would guess I'm not the typical homeowner that many of you pro's see everyday in that I have an engineering background (not in HVAC) and have doing research for around 5 years or so as I keep thinking I'm ready to replace my 40-year old Sears AC that just keeps on running, albeit sucking up the amps along the way. Other h/o on this site may be not be 'average' either if there is such a thing. I've talked to lots of acquaintances that have replaced their Central AC and I tend to get the idea that most of them think of it more like buying a washing machine than say a home remodeling project. They just want a low price and expect it to cool their house when they're done. They are typically shocked at large differences in quotes, and I would guess that some of the contractors may have explained the extra value (Cooling Load Calc, duct or leak testing, warranty, proper sizing...) of their proposals but it probably escapes many.

My personal expectation(dream maybe) is that I'll be able to find a contractor, who will bring up things like cooling load, correct sizing (and why), duct sizing and balancing, blower speeds, coil sizes etc. and won't roll their eyes when I ask about sensible vs latent capacities of their equipment recommendations or the like. I'm hoping they'll use less of a cookie-cutter approach and more of a custom approach including recommendations for things I could do to improve the efficiency of my house system (ways to reduce infiltration, or increase external shade in the right areas, etc.). Bottom line - I want to feel confident in their design and install proficiency. Price is always a consideration, but if the contractor doesn't meet the other expectations, price doesn't even play. Speaking of cost, if the contractor can work with the customer on cost trade-offs , all the better. For instance, while 2-stage AC may be nice, how about an appropriate one-stage correctly installed for less if the h/o can't swing the extra cash. Most quotes I've seen for other homes have been just a one-size fits all kind of thing.

Now, I would guess that most contractors size up their prospective customers pretty quickly and some may prefer to deal with a certain kind of customer (price sensitiviy, savvy about HVAC....) than others and when things get busy it's hard to find extra time or effort so I'm expecting that it may take some time to find a match if at all. Maybe I should wait until the summer rush is past.

Sorry for the length, but you asked.....

[hillbilly tech]

I feel the main thing is to get the unit cooling and heating at its best for x amount of dollars,i think thats what we all want,if ya cant do it homeowners dont need ya do they,they just want comfort and really they dont care what you have to do to fix it they just want it fixed.

[Jax]

Good thread John,

Hillbilly,, you said it in the fewest words.

The ideal contractor is one who will talk to you in a manner you can understand, and who can answer your questions, make suggestions for you to consider. Someone who will do what they say they will, when they say they will and at the price they quoted. And someone who you do not worry about being in your home while you are not there.
The ideal contractor is someone you can call and say I want a new system, just install what you would in your home and send me a bill, the key is under the rock, I am going on vacation.

You should not have to spend a lot of your valuable time trying to figure what you need and learn a bunch of useless things you do not want to know. But most of the time you do take the time to learn because you do not want to get screwed with an inferior job or an outrageously high price.

As a contractor I try to treat my customer the way I want to be treated. I take the time to listen to what they want, I make suggestions for them to consider. My pricing is consistant for every customer.

[Tinrascal]

Jammer13,

Most of the top-notch contractors on this site would love to discuss those engineering issues with you. You would be an educated customer and one I would enjoy presenting a proposal for. The problem is , at least in my area of operations, nobody seems to care. This year, it's "How low can you go?" and if you're not the cheapest bid, you might as well forget it. Yes, it is "WalMart mentality". And that's what we are dealing with right now.

[xv80satisfiedcust]

A full system replacement discussion from the HVAC contractor would cover equipment lifespan history (brand x has lasted this long, brand y ......), energy consumption (80 vs 90 afue, 13 versus 15+ seer, heat pump dual fuel, variable blower efficiency and lower sound, sizing), duct capacity, duct sealing, duct insulating, txv benefits, 2 stage benefits, adaptive recovery t-stat (lower utilities), heat pump defrost demand versus timed, gas versus electric resistance backup, foam pad versus steam humidifier, 5 inch media filter better than electrostatic filters. Price discussion would compare brands, afue, seer/hspf, heat pump versus AC alone. Could this all be in a 15 minute sales presentation? Customers may start out with just a few concerns, but what they don't know - - yes, they are concerned about these things too ! Do you all think I would be any good in HVAC sales?

Whether it is discussed or not, I would want install quality (replace linesets, braze with nitrogen procedure, take superheat readings - - the things that don't get done and end up on the HVAC Talk Wall of Shame). Had I not read HVAC Talk, I would have never known about nitrogen, the importance of duct capacity, txv benefits, coastal salt on outdoor coil problems, cost per Mbtu for heating, and demand defrost on heat pumps.

Realistically, most HVAC contractors might omit sales talk about txv, demand defrost, nitrogen, superheat. Equipment longevity is another taboo topic. Many customers misinterpret is as a "verbal warranty" perhaps.

To avoid finance charges, I am the type of person who likes the purchase HVAC equipment in phases: furnace, heat pump, humidifier, and then maybe filtration. This lessened the "sticker shock". Other customers like to get it all at once.

As far as sizing goes, I was more than happy to use HVAC calc and have the HVAC contractor provide feedback. To this day, however, I would be hesitant to insist that the contractor perform an official load calculation.

Yesterday it was 102 in Denver, 1 degree less than the record high. T-stat on 71, indoor temp rose to 73 for maybe 2 hours. I normally set AC to 77. My outdoor unit is 2 ton with indoor coil size of 3 tons. I had to gently insist against 2.5 tons. Too many customers expect oversized equipment.

I'd use one of those quick electronic tape measure indoors. Sell customer: minor lag w/ correct size & best efficiency, or 1/2 ton larger perfect temp control w/constant lower efficiency. Perhaps give a range of size on the estimate and reveal the exact sizing calc after customer puts down deposit (load calc cost nonrefundable)??? Many customers might not realize, it's not the brand, it's the seer, sizing, and install that make them happy with lower utilities.

hvac bertrand, I like that quote "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts".

I would never criticize an HVAC company that does things to the extreme (accurate etc...). Also, I did not harass my furnace contractor for not doing a load calc or forgetting to install a jumper wire.

One suggestion I should perhaps make for HVAC Talk - when there is a detailed excellent discussion on a topic, these threads should be archived permanently in a section. Also, perhaps a mandatory display of the forum rules leading to a "New customers look here" menu and have maybe a list of topics:

Equipment Sizing, Quality Install, "80 versus 90 furnaces", 13 versus 15+ seer, heat pump dual fuel, variable blower efficiency and lower sound, duct capacity, duct sealing, duct insulating, txv benefits, 2 stage benefits, adaptive recovery t-stat (lower utilities), heat pump defrost demand versus timed, gas versus electric resistance backup, foam pad versus steam humidifier, 5 inch media filter better than electrostatic filters, R410a versus R22, humidity, ductwork, insulation, windows, hot water heaters. If you don't see your desired topic, click here "new questions/chronological" which would lead them to the current residential thread screen with the current option of starting a new thread. The archived threads might even be closed to new postings except for HVAC Talk moderator approved follow up comments for simplicity. People could start a new thread, referencing the archived one possibly.

Within these topic headers (R410a versus R22) could be maybe 6 or 10 of what the pro's and/or homeowners think (rating function ????) of the best threads on each topic.

There is a tremendous expertise that has already been written on this site. Most homeowners might not do a search or know which threads have the most detail and in-depth information on such topics. Some of the really good threads could end up falling off the system due to the passage of time. Also, the pro's end up answering similar questions month after month.

But, Bertrand, I truly disagree with any blame of HVAC Talk about unrealistic customer expectations. The customers have their own, see:

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=103241

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=102548

Some judgment must be exercised on the part of the customer - - how much they are going to request from the contractor. I would recommend customers ask about the brazing/vacuum procedure and verification of the superheat readings during install. The detail oriented customer can take the initiative to do the HVAC calc sizing and HVAC Investor efficiency payback calculations themselves before calling the first contractor. Ductwork changes can usually be done LATER as airflow enhancement provided that an oversized furnace/heat pump/ac is not installed.

What do you think will happen if a neighbor asks me for an HVAC referral, will my contractor get a call from the neighbor??? Probably so !!!

Out of curiosity (length) the Windows XP narrator was able read my entire post in 10 minutes. Sorry for the long post.

[danglerb]

No normal person posts on any online forum, lurk to post ratio is typically like 100:1. Many I am sure never even register, they use a search engine that gives them a link directly to some post with the keywords they are using, read the thread and never come back.

So what do I expect from a guy coming out to do a replacement bid?

Professional.
Businesslike regarding the appointment time, and to check my existing system and measure everything so they know whats going to physically fit, and what should work with my ductwork etc.

Not too slimey.
I realize most of these guys are really salespeople with a job of selling me stuff, but I have a VERY low tolerance for any kind of sales trick.

Knowledgable.
Knowing what a manual J is, or what NATE is, or when r22 is going to stop being made, or what the super dehumidify mode is, thats a plus, but again I know this is the salesman, not the technician.

Bottom line.
What equipment is going in, how long will you stand behind it, whats it going to cost, and when can you do it.

Two of the contractors that gave me bids provide 5 years labor on all the complete systems they install, and that is a MAJOR plus in my ranking.

[browntigerus]

>A little less paranoia.

100% agree. If guy hides gages, not talking to me, acts snotty, work too fast, trips my BS radar - fired, fired fired.

Other than that I admit looking for Wal-Mart bids. The big difference is I always communicate my expectations.

1) Every contractor gets same choices of equipment ( Brand, AC, coil, furnace, etc )

2) At the End of Every install / service I would like to get written data that he measured: static, S.H., S.C, etc
( I keep all of the data so problems could be identified )

2a) When installing I provide Manual J with room data, contractor can rerun, modify, make his own, add some etc. Contractor must provide duct drawing with the designed air flow.

3) Ductwork must be metal, any changes must be sealed, anything hooked to the trunc must have damper.

4) Short runoffs could be flex, proper straps / length. Proper air flow guranteed.

5) I don't really get upset, if something small gets screwed, installer has emergency, wifey / child calls, etc as long as it all made good in the end.

6) I normally watch install / repair supply food (pizza) / drinks etc.

7) Correct geometry. So if it suppose to be vertical it better be near vertical. Use laser level dam it.

8) If furnace to be serviced, combustion analyzer is a must.
I had people showing at my doors w/o one after explicit phone instructions. Had to place call to the office informing them why they will not be paid / allowed to work. If A/C my vac requirement: show me gage that it hold > 1 hour.

9) Payments: I will pay upfront up to 50% of real equipment cost after it was delivered, or no more than 3 days prior to install. Payment will be suspended if installer did not show up for 7 cal days. Invoice is a must. Final payment = two days after install complete.

10) All existing codes must be met, I don't care if permits are pulled ( I will pay permit cost ).

11) Recent experience: any attempt to deliver different equipment, or equipment for some other job = breach of contract. Please no "delivery cost savings excuse". Because when supply house doesn't get paid I am the one that has to fight leans. No Com equipment delivery for residential sites.

*) But as I mentioned before I am looking for someone I am comfortable with. I don't care if he talks to me about hvac, politics, or sports.
**) I preffer keep initial visit down to 15 minutes, I do't want to waste your time - please don't waste mine. Something like 5 min to show system, 5 min for me to explain expectations, 5+ min company to talk about bid, payment etc.
***) Honestly, I preffer older installers.

[lunk48324]

Have a strong website with testimonials. And please include real people I can email. Include links to a site like this.

Please give me the opportunity to do a manual J and blower door test. I want the option. If you can't afford to do it for free, that's fine. Let me pay for it with a portion, or all of it deductible from the cost of a purchase.

It was like pulling teeth finding a contractor that offered these services.

Please be upfront about the true cost to own anything you sell. UV lights need new bulbs. Filters need to be replaced. Humidifiers need new pads. And please don't try to make me feel like my family isn't important to me if I don't buy the air quality products you think are best.

If you are going to throw numbers at me, make sure you know them inside and out. For example, there is a diagram on the old Bryant borchure that says the motor uses as much power as (I think it said) a 100 watt light bulb. I asked if that was an average or if that's what it used whenever it was on. And then, the real tricky question, how much does my current motor use. If you're gonna play the savings card, know it.

Make sure you and your service guys at least offer to remove their shoes. Bringing drop cloths to protect my floors and carpet would be appreciated.

DON'T BAD MOUTH THE COMPETITION! Sorry for yelling but, I hate companies that feel they have to put everyone down. Let your refrences speak for you.

Lastly, make sure my comfort is your priority. Let me know that if the system is sized wrong, you'll stand by your calculation.

Good luck. I wish you the best.

[Irishmist]

I hope that you residential visitors will continue to contribute to this thread so that WE can learn from YOU. All the best, John. So far, a LOT of good information.

[riderman]

John

I was BS'ed from the beginning from contractors based on info gleaned from here. I was angry. My previous posts showed that. Every contractor that came to my house had the right answer, everybody else, including people on this forum, were "wrong"

I was confused and tapped HVAC contracter buddies opinions. They stated most replies to my questions here were "WRONG".

I played devils advocate here and was rightfully slammed as a "know it all HO" for basicly asking their questions.

Us HO just want to get the right system, for a fair price, and you to earn a fair profit.

Bottom line for us, if our house is reasonably cool\warm when we get home, you will never hear crap from most.

[cn]

I am a physician and think HVAC, Electrical, Plumbing Contractors, Auto mechanics should learn from medicine/health care fields.

Slightly off-topic but many car owners like me look very hard for a good auto mechanic (competent and honest) because many of us have been a “victim” of car repair incompetency at one point or another.

There are a lot of similarities between doctor-patient relationship & service company (HVAC)-home owner relationship. So here is the list:


1. EXPERIENCE:
Everyone wants an experienced doctor, and same is true for HVAC.
Experience counts.
- HVAC company should be experienced company.
- Techs should be experienced and well-trained.

2. EDUCATION
- Tech Education: It’d be helpful to prove to H.O. that the techs get proper training and constantly updated with classes etc. Show Certificate of Competency if necessary.
- H.O. Education: Many H.O. do not know much and look up to HVAC for recommendations:
a. Brand (Lennox, Carrier etc.)
b. Quality Installation. Here the HVAC Co. needs to stress the importance of quality job.
So do your best to educate the H.O.

3. COMMON SENSE:
- Things like window blinds and tinting west facing window (to save AC electricity cost) and home insulation should be part of the evaluation.


4. HONESTY:
This speaks for itself.


5. FAIR PRICING AND EDUCATION
- Proper education is the key. H.O. need to know that quality job costs money because the HVAC co. has to invest in the techs (training classes, updated training etc.). This needs to be communicated to H.O. that HVAC Co. XYZ costs a bit more than Co. ABC, but H.O. get quality job from XYZ.

In other words, “Garbage in garbage out”…or “you get what you pay for”


6. COMPETENCY
- Crucial to have competent people. It is crucial to HVAC Co.’s survival.


7. IMPORTANCE OF QUALITY INSTALLATION + WARRANTY
- Most H.O. wants some kind of warranty.
- Also after a major job, do not charge the H.O. for small little things in subsequent return trips.

Treat them like a human being and they will treat the HVAC Co. well.

- Always follow it up 1 month or two later to be sure things are OK (like a doctor calling to check on patient). It proves that HVAC Co. cares.


8. PROOF OF DATA RATHER THAN “RUMORS”
- If you want to sell 91% eff furnace, prove that the H.O. will save money by proper data not just speculation.
(I switched from 1991 80% furnaces to 91% eff furnaces and have not seen any saving in the winter yet, same house, same thermostat setting), and according to my research, there has been no concrete (objective) data that 91% eff furnace saves H.O. money.

- Electronic Air Cleaner is a gimmick, I am glad I got rid of it and went back to 3M filter.
(not to mention the risk of ozone production and health hazard of ozone)

- UV light blah blah blah.......

****** IMHO, the only accessories worth having are: Conventional Air Filter and Humidifier for winter. The rest (EAC, UV etc.) are junk.

- Consumers Reports Reviews on these accessories may be helpful.

-Popularmechanics has a good review as well:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_improvement/home_improvement/1275931.html?page=1&c=y


9. OWNERSHIP
- If the HVAC Co. makes a mistake, own up to it, come back and fix it no charge.


10. MISC:
- Good work brings in more customers like good doctors always have a lot of trusting patients.

- Oh and lastly, there are people that I do not want to be my patients: HVAC Co. should do the same thing. For the most part, most H.O.’s are OK, however there are H.O.’s that HVAC should say away from. Not worth doing business with (but this is the exception; most people are OK).

Well, my 2 cents…..

[kupgas]

John,
From my experience with HVAC service techs, there are three types.
1. One who provides the correct fix at a reasonale price.
2. One who wants to replace units or main parts without attempting to fix them.
3. One who wants to do the quick fix, even if it costs more down the road to fix it correctly.

Kupgas

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Originally posted by kupgas
1. One who provides the correct fix at a reasonale price.
2. Kupgas

I keep seeing the "reasonable price" comment.

How does a homeowner determine what is reasonable?

I can quote $1 for a system and the HO always acts like I just punched them in the face.

[cn]

Originally posted by BSCHVAC

Originally posted by kupgas
1. One who provides the correct fix at a reasonale price.
2. Kupgas

I keep seeing the "reasonable price" comment.

How does a homeowner determine what is reasonable?

I can quote $1 for a system and the HO always acts like I just punched them in the face.

My suggestion is like car repair. As an example, my mechanic told me the cost of a new water pump for my car is $200: $90 for water pump and $110 for labor.
So there are 2 ways to quote things:
- P + L separately.
- Package deal.

The bottom line is still $200 for me but I feel better when the professional is honest with me and list for me the P+L separately.

I understand HVAC business is different than auto repair. Consumers are usually wary of package deals because they do not know if the service co. makes money on parts on top of the labor. Many auto mechanics make money on both P and L so to speak.

Back to my example, my mechanic prob paid $70 for the WP but charged me $90. I understand he has to make a living too.

Anyway, not a bad idea to do a breakdown of P+L when pricing and discuss with the H.O.
People are very sophisticated these days with the info availble from the Internet.

[beenthere]

Originally posted by cn
I am a physician and think HVAC, Electrical, Plumbing Contractors, Auto mechanics should learn from medicine/health care fields.

7. IMPORTANCE OF QUALITY INSTALLATION + WARRANTY
- Most H.O. wants some kind of warranty.
- Also after a major job, do not charge the H.O. for small little things in subsequent return trips.



I have never seen a doctor and not been charged for every visit.




9. OWNERSHIP
- If the HVAC Co. makes a mistake, own up to it, come back and fix it no charge.

Same asnswer as above.


10. MISC:
- Good work brings in more customers like good doctors always have a lot of trusting patients.



Well, my 2 cents…..




But thank you for your time and opinion.

[cn]

Originally posted by beenthere
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cn
[B]
7. IMPORTANCE OF QUALITY INSTALLATION + WARRANTY
- Most H.O. wants some kind of warranty.
- Also after a major job, do not charge the H.O. for small little things in subsequent return trips.

I have never seen a doctor and not been charged for every visit.

But thank you for your time and opinion.

Sorry I did not make it clear.
What I meant is when the contractors just did a major job, and if small little problems show up, they should return and take care of the problems with NC. This creates a good impression. Good impression leads to more "word-of-mouth" referrals, which are critical to HVAC Co survival.
On the long run, you win because you will have more customers.
The old saying is "drop the small fish to get the bigger fish". Ha! But true.
I never charge my patients for small little things that we should have done right to start with.

[beenthere]

Then your a 1 in 1,000,000 doctor.

[cissado]

Might as well throw this in there.

I like to see a list of things I could buy/have installed. If I'm looking at a "shopping list" of HVAC products that the contrtactor leaves for me to look at in my home, such as filters, UV, fresh air, dehu, etc... and their prices, I may just say "Yeah, I'll take that, and that... etc." but not knowing prices, I don't generally venture out and ask. That is just me, there MIGHT be other "shoppers" like me as well.



Also, to the contractors. Please don't assume we don't want to spend the extra money for something of quality. Let us know our options for top of the line stuff. At least give us a choice.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by cn
I am a physician and think HVAC, Electrical, Plumbing Contractors, Auto mechanics should learn from medicine/health care fields.

OMG!!! So we are to cheap you think we can charge the same rate Pharmaceuticals do for our parts thanks for the tip. I will now start selling my freon for $300.00 a lb. that is about the markup rate on a pills right. :D

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by core

Originally posted by bertrand
For us homeowners this site has raised our expections very high - maybe too high.

I would say that a number the pros who post frequently on this site have set the bar very high for the other "regular contractors" we home owners try to find in our area.
This reminds me of a quote I heard once.

Right. Similarly, close to rotten to the _core_.

[jeff9329]

Originally posted by John Lloyd
What are YOUR expectations when you make an inquiry and an appointment is set for either service or a proposal? You know what our expectations are if you have viewed this site at all. I want to know (and honestly, so that we can truly do a better job for YOU) what is important to YOU! What is your level of expectation. If we don't know what it is, then the possibility is greatly increased that we will fail and you will be disappointed.

I know what I expect when I call for service or a proposal in areas I am not familiar with. I have certain expectations of the individual, the company, and the product. What are Yours? All the best, John.

1. When I make a service call I expect to be told the minimum charge and time allowed. I expect to be told the hourly rate charged thereafter. I expect a technical expert with the proper tools and time available to diagnose and make any reasonable repair while on site.

2. If the freon system is checked/serviced I expect at least a minimal amount of documentation including pressures, temperatures & superheat.

3. I expect fair prices. If you come out and replace a $XXX start capacitor, I don't want to pay an exorbitant markup and labor charge for a 30 min job.

I don't mind paying for real technical ability and honesty, it costs money and it's well worth it. What maybe you don't understand is that there are scores of pretty much total idiots in the HVAC business. Some people are cynical. I have been a commercial General Contractor and have seen the horrible workmanship of our low bidders many times. It's scary.

>>>edit... that will cover the site rules violations.

No pricing!


[Edited by Jultzya on 07-20-2006 at 04:08 PM]

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by jeff9329
If you come out and replace a $XXX start capacitor, I don't want to pay an exorbitant markup and labor charge for a 30 min job.

Make sure you tell the hospital that also when your laying on your death bed and in need of a .5 cent nitroglycerin tablet and they charge you $85.00 like they did me that took them all of 10 seconds to give it to me how come we are screamed at about price but hospitals and doctors are ok?

[Edited by Jultzya on 07-20-2006 at 04:08 PM]

[cn]

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by cn
I am a physician and think HVAC, Electrical, Plumbing Contractors, Auto mechanics should learn from medicine/health care fields.

OMG!!! So we are to cheap you think we can charge the same rate Pharmaceuticals do for our parts thanks for the tip. I will now start selling my freon for $300.00 a lb. that is about the markup rate on a pills right. :D

What I meant is the principles of business: good ethics, quality work, honesty and ownership of the problems. I was not talking anyone is cheap at all.

If people follow the above principles of business, they will do well in the long run.

Pharmaceutical business is a very "dirty" business that we physicians do not get involved. The drug companies make millions of dollars way more than any of us can make throughout our lifetime.

[curiousgirl]

Do doctors get any kick backs or perks from the drug companies for prescribing some/certain/all drugs?

[danglerb]

Originally posted by curiousgirl
Do doctors get any kick backs or perks from the drug companies for prescribing some/certain/all drugs?

Drug companies do lots of things to interest a doc in prescribing their pills, but HMO etc. actually pay them related to lowest patient costs.

99% of people in medicine are wonderfull, but its a nasty system they have to work in.

[jeff9329]

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by jeff9329
If you come out and replace a $XXX start capacitor, I don't want to pay an exorbitant markup and labor charge for a 30 min job.

Make sure you tell the hospital that also when your laying on your death bed and in need of a .5 cent nitroglycerin tablet and they charge you $85.00 like they did me that took them all of 10 seconds to give it to me how come we are screamed at about price but hospitals and doctors are ok?

The death bed scenario is what many HVAC contractors use. You are hot and have no AC, are you going to say no to paying $200 for a $100 job? Probably not.

Believe me I have argued with the hospital several times about some unbundled charges associated with a surgery. People have to speak up when something seems to be a ripoff.

[Edited by Jultzya on 07-20-2006 at 04:08 PM]

[lunk48324]

I don't think the replies about being ethical and fairly priced add much to this thread.

If someone isn't ethical, you're not going to change them here. And, they probably won't be in business too long. The world is getting very small and sites like these coupled with local news agencies and their "Problem Solver" reporters expose a lot of fraudulent operations.

The fair price thing is a bunch of hogwash. You pay for conveninece. Need a fix late at night, on a weekend or a holiday? You're gonna pay for it. It's no different in any other business. If you go to the emergency room for a cold, your insurance co. is gonna hit you. If you want a gallon of milk from the gas station you're already at, you're gonna pay more than if you go 2 miles down the road.

That's life.

Getting a fair price, is the consumer's job.

[wptski]

Originally posted by cn

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by cn
I am a physician and think HVAC, Electrical, Plumbing Contractors, Auto mechanics should learn from medicine/health care fields.

OMG!!! So we are to cheap you think we can charge the same rate Pharmaceuticals do for our parts thanks for the tip. I will now start selling my freon for $300.00 a lb. that is about the markup rate on a pills right. :D

What I meant is the principles of business: good ethics, quality work, honesty and ownership of the problems. I was not talking anyone is cheap at all.

If people follow the above principles of business, they will do well in the long run.

Pharmaceutical business is a very "dirty" business that we physicians do not get involved. The drug companies make millions of dollars way more than any of us can make throughout our lifetime.
good ethics?? Noticed how you were attacked for your opinion! I've seen forums were posters were belittled but open name calling is allowed here and joked about too! Is this the image you want your future customers to have??

I've learned alot in the short time visiting here but I've learned also that the HVAC is a rough crowd to deal with.

I'm going to ditto on the desire for Parts & Labor quotes mention above too.

[lunk48324]

A question on the parts and labor billing thing.


If one guy tells you the part costs $40 and the labor is $110 and the other tells you the part costs $75 and the labor is $75, which is ripping you off?

Or is it just the bottom line that you should be worried about?

[wptski]

Originally posted by lunk48324
A question on the parts and labor billing thing.


If one guy tells you the part costs $40 and the labor is $110 and the other tells you the part costs $75 and the labor is $75, which is ripping you off?

Or is it just the bottom line that you should be worried about?


Probably both!

[paul42]

If it is for a proposal, bring experience, knowledge about your product, and an open mind. I prefer to do initial talks via email to avoid wasting my time with somebody that ignores what I want, so bring whatever notes you already have.

If I ask a question that you don't know the answer to, don't make something up. I'm usually too polite to call you on it, but I will note it for further reference.

If it is for a service call, bring experience, knowledge and training, and good working tools. Plan on leaving the old parts behind. Make sure that at all times during the service call, at least one person understands and speaks good english. Show up within a couple of hours of the time we planned.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by paul42
Plan on leaving the old parts behind.


If we have to recover freon for some reason non condensable's or contaminated and install new freon were should I put this stuff you have an old gas can? :rolleyes:

[beenthere]

Originally posted by wptski

Originally posted by lunk48324
A question on the parts and labor billing thing.


If one guy tells you the part costs $40 and the labor is $110 and the other tells you the part costs $75 and the labor is $75, which is ripping you off?

Or is it just the bottom line that you should be worried about?


Probably both!

neither.

One makes his money on the parts, the other on his labor.

[jir]

For me, in the case of the different parts / labor breakdown but the same total - if they give different part costs (at least that much difference!), then someone's lying.

Rather goes against the concept of finding someone that does reliable work if you know at least one of the proposals is based on lying to you - and you can't find out the real price to learn which one it is. The total may be the same in both cases, but if one is willing to lie to me about the cost to make his labor rate look better, that most likely won't be the last time he'll be tempted to lie to me.

What about the concept of a rate book? Auto shops use them, and post their labor rate in dollars per hour. And from shadowing my dad way back when it was possible to be a shade-tree mechanic (although he was a professional one, too), I have a bit of skepticism about a professional mechanic really taking as long to do a job as the rate book says :)

Obviously, I don't know a lot about the day-in, day-out struggle to keep good employees paid and make a living being the owner of an A/C shop - but as an industry, has there ever been serious consideration of the rate book / labor rate approach to doing HVAC work? Anything inherently unworkable about it?

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by jir
What about the concept of a rate book? Auto shops use them, and post their labor rate in dollars per hour.

When you have a labor rate book like the automotive industry has when you change a water pump on a 98 GMC truck well "every" 98 GMC truck will be the same there is "never" a job in this business exactly the same, there is some installs that are a lot harder than some and some easier, and with repairs there are a lot of circumstances were even changing out a capacitor is different, from someone before you installed the wrong on were you have to figure out buy checking with the mfg. or distributor what is the correct one or maybe you have a cooling issue and some can be resolved with a shot of freon were some may be an all day thing trying to figure out the problem so you can't possibly look into a labor book and see what a not cooling properly job should pay.

[jir]

Good points.

I was really thinking of replacements rather than repairs, but the points you mention would still apply - maybe the variation wouldn't be as extreme as for troubleshooting and repair, but would still be a lot more than in the auto biz.

And if there was a "degree of difficulty" multiplying factor, home owners would wonder about that, too :(

Oh well, maybe this is the best of all possible worlds - at least until Wal-Mart decides to get into repairs or Costco starts selling complete systems...

[aircooled53]

I have dealt with alot of consumers through my career, and I have found that if you give them a fair and well worked proposal to include equipment,design,installation and warranty and options.

Options:1-2-3 equipment seer/afue/heat pump/gas
design: manuel J Load/duct calculation
installation: set-up/removal/retro-fit/inspection
warranty: manufactures/extended/

PRICE:========== BID==========
That's what most people want; is for you to explain to them there hvac needs and to try and show them what will perform best in there home for certian amount of money. Sometimes people want the best but, don't want to pay for it because it's not in there budget.

So, I try and give customers options.

Has worked for me for along time...

[tundraotto]

2c here - salesmen - get rid of them if possible. first rule of sales is know your product - and i havent met one dedicated hvac salesman who has this over an hvac repairman.

i want to hear opinions and suggestions from a professional who installs and maintains systems. they know what works and what doesnt in my experience. not from a hack - but a real qualified pro. I dont necessarily need the prices from the same guy - but this is the guy who i would want to establish the parameters of what i need. some jackass can do his numbercrucnhing and get back to me in reasonable time (ideally the same or the next day) with a price of what was discussed.

this would be ideal for me.. your opinions will of course vary.