Am i wrong to ask?

[buzz427]

why dont contractors do manual J, etc when they come to see your house?

according to what i have learned and read on this forum, it seems that it needs to be a standard

Im looking at haveing a heat pump installed and have spoken to 3 contractors thus far. When i even mention a load calculation they look at me like im almost retarded. Seems like they are too good for that or something and that their best guess is good enough.

I am having a hard time finding a contractor that does that sort of thing. i have gotten to the point of requesting that when calling and almost feeling like im "inconvieniencing" them

i live in the greater vancouver area and am having a hell of a time finding the right contarctor for the job

any advise?

[miandsh2000]

going through the same thing. first guy way of sizing method was "your house looks about the same size as my parents and i put a 4 ton in theirs."

finally called my county building office and got a list of installers from them.

will cost u $'s though but worth it if your are unsure how it was sized when the house was built or system installed.

when you get your sales pitch and they start throwing out "it will save you 50% on your electric bill..." try approaching incentives with the sales person. something like "i'll pay you 50% of what you want for the system and if it saves me 50% after the first year i will pay you double what you want for the system." i have had no one take me up on that offer yet.

funny to watch their face.

[kvr]

I hear you. I am having 'some' degree of buyers remorse at the moment. I had a new AC system installed in my Las Vegas home. My original basic York system was close to coming apart, so I sprang for an upgraded system. Well, the price was surely upgraded I assure you. I got saled pitches from fours different 'contractors' in uniform, which were only salesmen who didn't actually install anything. I was quoted everything from a low $5k system up to an $11k system, and the product offered up was anything from Comfortmaker, York, RUUD, Rheem, Trane, and Lennox. I ended up committing to a two-stage Lennox 19 SEER condenser and variable speed furnace/blower. My home is 1,165 Sq.Ft., and single level. The guy quoted me a 3 ton system, which may be oversized a bit. Still trying to get consensus on that question. The guy also looked at me like I was from another planet for bringing up the J Manual calculation inquiry! Also got the cost saving and the old "the system will pay for itself in energy savings" pitch. I obviously bought it. I was shocked to see the actual unit delivered....looked like it was large enough in physical size to cool a hotel!! It was a 3 ton though, as I verified it on the labels. Hope I made the right call, or do I have some legal recourse if I can prove the contractor was negligent in installing too large a tonnage system for my place??

Anyway, I heard the National Comfort Institute site has a contractor list of folks who do a two-hour load calc and airflow test process. Not sure the cost to have that done (cha-ching!!), but may be worth the expense to get the right equipment the first time. But I really wish I had discovered this forum and various members before plunking down my cash, and would possibly have possibly made some other decision on my equipment. Take your time, even if you are suffering from heat/cold, and get the right contractor to properly assess your HVAC needs and concerns. It IS a big purchase decision. Good luck! -Ken

[billva]

i am a tech involved in the reverse situation. i have a potential customer that i performed a load calc for.

i came in at 3.5 ton, the other two companies are looking at the existing and quoting 4 ton.

they also want her to spring extra for higher seer equipment, which in my opinion will never be recieved in the life of an hvac system, in my area and the additional cost.

my advice, take the added expense of a higher efficiency system and put in a 15 year CD.(depending on your climate , of course).

[hvac hero]

having a load calc done takes some effort. Most contractors arent going to go to that much effort for just an estimate. If your wanting a good load calc done by a professional, call & ask for one & offer to pay for it. Maybe you could even barter with em a little & have it applied to their estimate if you go with their bid.

I'm a contractor & I just dont have time to go spend about 2 hours doing a load calc on every residential estimate.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by hvac hero

I'm a contractor & I just dont have time to go spend about 2 hours doing a load calc on every residential estimate.

Amen! and all that just for them to get a lowballer to do the job.

[HeyBob]

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by hvac hero

I'm a contractor & I just dont have time to go spend about 2 hours doing a load calc on every residential estimate.

Amen! and all that just for them to get a lowballer to do the job.

I did that three weeks ago for a customer. I also made the mistake of leaving my load calc since he had been a previous customer. I called back two weeks later, he went with a well know local low baller in my area using the size my load calc came out to, which was 1/2 a ton higher than everyone else.

Mr low baller made the mistake of not pulling a permit or using an electrician.............he should have gotten his letter from the Building Dept by now. :D

[docholiday]

KVR. To be fair, a 19 SEER unit is a two stage machine and is not made in half ton sizes. For instance, if your load calc was for 27,000 btuhs, a 3 ton unit is your only option. (either that or put up with the heat when its 95+ ouside)

Frankly for an estimate, you may not always get a manual J because no dealer wants to provide his competition with his legwork. And it is time consuming. On the otherhand, once you decide to let him do the work, you should agree (and do it in writing) that you would like a load calc done. If his original system quoted is too large or too small, then you need to accept a price difference either higher or lower depending on what you need versus what you were quoted.

[dynalowrider79]

It is very tough to do a load calc and it does take time to do so what we do now and this seems to work for us well is we evaluate duct system all that stuff give an estimate on equiptment and install generally we give and estimate on what we think is the correct size(unless its a new house of course or they never had ac, or its just not possible to even come close)if you have been doing this for a while you can make and educated estimate on the size but sometimes you will be a 1/2ton off. Its in the contract that if they decide to go with us we will come out do the load calc and adjust the price if our estimate was wrong but the price never rises for the customer we will eat the difference if its a little bigger unit than estimated for as there isnt all that much of a difference in price for going a 1/2 ton up or down. And we give the copy of the load calc to the customer. People seem to like this and it prevents us from spending 1-2 hours on a load calc when the person is just window shopping or not going to use us. I feel our time and knowledge is worth money and if your not going to pay for a load calc your not just going to get our expert opinion for free unless you buying somthing from us. I think its ok not to want to do one for free but the problem is that there is a good portion of contractors out there that dont know how to do one and they are the ones to watch out for

[perel]

Originally posted by dynalowrider79
generally we give and estimate on what we think is the correct size(unless its a new house of course or they never had ac, or its just not possible to even come close)if you have been doing this for a while you can make and educated estimate on the size but sometimes you will be a 1/2ton off. Its in the contract that if they decide to go with us we will come out do the load calc and adjust the price if our estimate was wrong but the price never rises for the customer we will eat the difference if its a little bigger unit
This is how every good contractor I talked to in my area (northern VA) did it, including the one I went with. Worked out fine; the important thing is that they did come back and do the load calc before actually putting the equipment in.

It is perfectly acceptable to BID by rule of thumb so long as you INSTALL by ManJ (well, install by ManS *sized* by ManJ) subject of course to proper corrections. (A lot of people forget about the required derating for inside temperatures below 78 degrees, for instance.)

[miandsh2000]

perel,
who did you use in NOVA?

[cissado]

In NJ I got lucky and found a company called Manuel J. But to my surprise when the guy came to my home and introduced himself as Manuel, It went downhill from there.

Apparently Manuel was his name.



Seriously, I'm just trying to convey that it is difficult to find the right contractor for certain services. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.

[washingtoncrossing]

i found that only the sales rep from Sears did a semblance of that for me, asking where sun hit in morning, viewing shade trees and windows, etc (though I guess carrying a compass would help). He initially recommended a half ton less than the others based on his calculation, but said half ton one way or the other was a normal variation. And then he priced out a 4 ton, same as everyone else. After that he wanted a lot more money for the same product.

It seems like an evaluation of the insulation, ducts and leaks etc is beyond the time alloted for the sales call, and the original builder is relied upon.

We found our "truth" by being satisfied that all three said 4-ton, which is the same as what we are replacing.

The contractor we are choosing is the only one who took the time to actually locate the lines that run from the outdoor unit to the indoor, told us of the need to cut into a finished ceiling, followed our condensate drainage tube and carefully measured our existing oil furnace to make sure a new coil would fit into it of we decided to keep the old furnace.

[praha99]

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by hvac hero

I'm a contractor & I just dont have time to go spend about 2 hours doing a load calc on every residential estimate.

Amen! and all that just for them to get a lowballer to do the job.

Yup it`s the customers fault they want free estimates call 7 different companies wasting everyones time and then end up going with the lowest bid anyway.

[comfortdoc]

I notice you mentioned Sears. If you are still considering them do yourself a favor and research them on this site. There is some interesting reading about their quality and customer service attitudes.

Goodluck with your new system.

[danglerb]

A wide variety of people are in the HVAC industry, and not all the good guys do everything the same way.

Pretty much NONE of the consumers I have talked to after learning what Manual J was, want a correctly sized AC, they want oversized enough to get rapid cool down. Could be a Manual J and correct sizing leads to too many callbacks.

[Irishmist]

buzz427: because there are too many lazy as_es in our industry that don't want to put the effort and time into doing it right! that's why. should it be done? absolutely.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by John Lloyd
buzz427: because there are too many lazy as_es in our industry that don't want to put the effort and time into doing it right! that's why. should it be done? absolutely.


"OR" maybe some of us are up to our arses in work and we don't have time we had 23 service calls today one man out sick, so me and two other guys killed ourselves today to just try and get caught up which we didn't yet, just because we don't have the time and manpower to go perform A free manual J "Dam" sure don't mean were lazy, I personally think that statement was uncalled for, maybe your company is twittling there thumbs and like a wrecker waiting on a wreck for someone that needs a "FREE" manual J and you can run out there and do one, I know this is the right thing to do for the record we just don't have the time so I guess if that makes us lazy well Hell were a bunch of lazy arses.

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by kvr
I am having 'some' degree of buyers remorse at the moment. I had a new AC system installed in my Las Vegas home.

I ended up committing to a two-stage Lennox 19 SEER condenser and variable speed furnace/blower. My home is 1,165 Sq.Ft., and single level. The guy quoted me a 3 ton system, which may be oversized a bit. Still trying to get consensus on that question.

I was shocked to see the actual unit delivered....looked like it was large enough in physical size to cool a hotel!! It was a 3 ton though, as I verified it on the labels. Hope I made the right call, or do I have some legal recourse if I can prove the contractor was negligent in installing too large a tonnage system for my place??

... IS a big purchase decision. Good luck! -Ken

2-stage will be fine and 3-ton NOT Too big when the
100's days are frequent and
increasingly more than in past years.

Also, your electric bill may be a
little more
pleasant looking in spite of rate increases.

[hvac hero]

Originally posted by John Lloyd
buzz427: because there are too many lazy as_es in our industry that don't want to put the effort and time into doing it right! that's why. should it be done? absolutely.

yeah it should be done, but it doesnt necessarily have to be done just for a estimate. I can guarantee ya I'm not lazy & neither are the other guys here that say they dont do it for every estimate. I'm more than happy to do it & adjust my bid accordingly after a commitment. Kinda funny hearing someone call us lazy in the middle of the summer when most of us are working 50 to 60 hours a week in the heat. yeah real lazy.

[hvac hero]

Originally posted by mrbillpro

Originally posted by John Lloyd
buzz427: because there are too many lazy as_es in our industry that don't want to put the effort and time into doing it right! that's why. should it be done? absolutely.


"OR" maybe some of us are up to our arses in work and we don't have time we had 23 service calls today one man out sick, so me and two other guys killed ourselves today to just try and get caught up which we didn't yet, just because we don't have the time and manpower to go perform A free manual J "Dam" sure don't mean were lazy, I personally think that statement was uncalled for, maybe your company is twittling there thumbs and like a wrecker waiting on a wreck for someone that needs a "FREE" manual J and you can run out there and do one, I know this is the right thing to do for the record we just don't have the time so I guess if that makes us lazy well Hell were a bunch of lazy arses.


I hear ya Billpro. When I saw that word "lazy" i immediately replied before I read the other responses. After going back & seeing yours, I see we said basically the same thing. Right on man.

[natedude]

Link at the top of the page.

Download the software pay the $$ for it and find out what it says you should use. Just my opinion based on what I have seen at this site so far. I'm pretty sure the next time I shop for a unit I will pay for a liscense for the HVAC calc and find out for myself.

[buzz427]

well, guys its great to hear from the contractors point of view. i can understand the fact that u wouldnt want to do the legwork just so that work get transfered down to the lowest bidder on the job. Also the fact of not wanting to spend the time at Every estamate doing a load test. However, As a costomer tho, i would have absolutely no problem paying for the contractors time to have load test done. No problems at all. Large investment going into a project like that and to me, a few extra hundred dollars at the beginning of a job where sizing is one of the most important functions is so worth the money its a no brainer.

Now its not like im looking for something free if they told me that we need to perform a 2-3 hour loadtest on your house to find your needs etc etc then i would have NO arguments on that..

Id prolly use that contractor over all others (Price can not be the only determining factor) as to me it would seem as if he was more competent than the rest and Knew what he was talking aobut. Lol im sick of hearing the gimmicks

just the point of view of a customer that cant find the right contractor

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by buzz427

just the point of view of a customer that cant find the right contractor

buzz that is a great! point of view also but we don't run across a lot of customers like you or have the prospective you do about their job, I hope you find a very qualified contractor and someone you can trust and will do you a good job, because customers like you deserve the best, thanks for you honest feedback.
Mr. Bill

[danglerb]

I think I am going to put in a claim for a neck injury, I read these 'manual j' threads and just shake my head. Given the multistage cooling and special dehumidification modes, getting the "correct" size system on paper doesn't seem to have a lot of real value. Its pure CYA.

[hvac hero]

Originally posted by buzz427
well, guys its great to hear from the contractors point of view. i can understand the fact that u wouldnt want to do the legwork just so that work get transfered down to the lowest bidder on the job. Also the fact of not wanting to spend the time at Every estamate doing a load test. However, As a costomer tho, i would have absolutely no problem paying for the contractors time to have load test done. No problems at all. Large investment going into a project like that and to me, a few extra hundred dollars at the beginning of a job where sizing is one of the most important functions is so worth the money its a no brainer.

Now its not like im looking for something free if they told me that we need to perform a 2-3 hour loadtest on your house to find your needs etc etc then i would have NO arguments on that..

Id prolly use that contractor over all others (Price can not be the only determining factor) as to me it would seem as if he was more competent than the rest and Knew what he was talking aobut. Lol im sick of hearing the gimmicks

just the point of view of a customer that cant find the right contractor





Buzz, if I had someone call & ask for me to come do a load calc because they are wanting to use it for a starting point on getting estimates and they had your attitude & were willing to pay. I would be more than willing to give them a load calc & be just as thorough as possible. I would collect my fee & give em my best sales pitch on what equipment I thought would benefit them. And then, they would be free to use my load calc & shop prices as much as they want. It wouldnt bother me a bit.

I hope you can have better luck this next week trying to find a good contractor that will help you.