Do you have tool you want, but isn't made? Calling out the instrument manufactures!

[darctangent]

Not unlike the Thermostat industry that has recently started to enter the modern age, The instrument manufactures we deal with aren't very good at creating solutions that fit the needs of the technician in the field. I think a big part of this problem is a lack of communication between the people who design tools and those who use them. sometimes it results in not taking the technology as far as it could go, other times tools are way more than we need. That's why I'm throwing an idea out there as an example of something simple and highly useable.

So many techs don't take the measurements because just hauling all the crap we could use to diagnose a system in and out of the house, setup, break down, taking readings....

The concept is for a dual temperature thermometer that is easy to carry, setup, read and store. No buttons to push to change the display, a magnet on the back for quick mounting, and a way to store the right kind of probes for taking accurate air temperature readings without them getting damaged.
Oh, hey, lets get a little crazy too. we'll add a central display that tells us the DeltaT too!

Check out the attached file and let me (and a manufacture) know if you would buy one. I know I would.

Keep in mind that this thread is about a great deal more than just the tool I'm suggesting. It's about getting the tools we need to do a better job in the field and do it quicker.

feedback?

[ch4man]

Not unlike the Thermostat industry that has recently started to enter the modern age, The instrument manufactures we deal with aren't very good at creating solutions that fit the needs of the technician in the field. I think a big part of this problem is a lack of communication between the people who design tools and those who use them. sometimes it results in not taking the technology as far as it could go, other times tools are way more than we need. That's why I'm throwing an idea out there as an example of something simple and highly useable.

So many techs don't take the measurements because just hauling all the crap we could use to diagnose a system in and out of the house, setup, break down, taking readings....

The concept is for a dual temperature thermometer that is easy to carry, setup, read and store. No buttons to push to change the display, a magnet on the back for quick mounting, and a way to store the right kind of probes for taking accurate air temperature readings without them getting damaged.
Oh, hey, lets get a little crazy too. we'll add a central display that tells us the DeltaT too!

Check out the attached file and let me (and a manufacture) know if you would buy one. I know I would.

Keep in mind that this thread is about a great deal more than just the tool I'm suggesting. It's about getting the tools we need to do a better job in the field and do it quicker.

feedback?


have you not met jim b, russell h, or travis yet???

although i agree completely with the jist of your post. with todays technology and the advances in computer micro chip all thermometers should be psycrometers that not only tell the usual 4, DB,WB,RH,DP. but also the entire info a psych chart will along with memory for delta calculations.

oh i know they are out there but for some you would need to dig out a real drill and 1" step bit. i do drilll lots of holes but hate drilling large holes. its destructive testing . probes need to be small enough for a small step bit that the smaller pocket drivers such as a 10.8 makita can dill all day long.

fieldpiece is hanging around here all the time, so dont paint the entire manufactures with a broad brush.

mr. bergman is also here quite often although i dohbt testo will change much based on this site. they're just too large worldwide arrogant company for that.

[AccurateHT]

I've been quite happy with the Fluke 52II for all kinds of temp chores. A couple of Testo 605 h2 would do what you indicated in the pic.

What I would like to see is a data logger with temp, %RH, volt, and amp inputs on a cell phone type service with automatic alerts. That way when I'm running all over town, the cooler I just fixed could report its status to me.If anyone would like to buy that idea from me it's for sale:grin2:

[cavalieri85]

fluke has a tool that does all of that
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/HVAC-IAQ-Tools/Air-Testers/Fluke-922.htm?PID=56154
i have wanted one for some time but just cant afford the price tag right now

[cavalieri85]

sorry it cant report to you all over town.

[tech56]

I would buy one but doesn't fieldpiece's ST4 do most of that?

If someone made an instrument that had dual psychrometer probes with display like you have designed i would probably buy one every year! (i tend to be a bit hard on my meters)

[darctangent]

First, I should say that the title of the thread got botched :) it SHOULD have said "Do you WANT a tool that isn't yet made.... blah blah blah" so sorry about my late night grammar



have you not met jim b, russell h, or travis yet???

Well... no not personally, no
But I am aware that there are a number of people here that are connected to manufacturers. My point is how ofter do the tools get developed from looking at the process of the field tech? There are some real simple tools or features that can be developed just by looking at what a good tech does to either diagnose a problem or "commission" a new system.

although i agree completely with the jist of your post. with todays technology and the advances in computer micro chip all thermometers should be psycrometers that not only tell the usual 4, DB,WB,RH,DP. but also the entire info a psych chart will along with memory for delta calculations.

I get where you are going, and I have no problem with it, but my tool was intended to be a plain jane thermometer with all the information displayed at the same time. simple. cheap to make, and durable. It could be easily adapted to wet bulb temps too, but obliviously that would be more to make and probably fewer sold too. I was looking to make baby steps in the right direction. It sounds like you want bigger leaps. nothing wrong with either one.

oh i know they are out there but for some you would need to dig out a real drill and 1" step bit. i do drilll lots of holes but hate drilling large holes. its destructive testing . probes need to be small enough for a small step bit that the smaller pocket drivers such as a 10.8 makita can dill all day long.

fieldpiece is hanging around here all the time, so dont paint the entire manufactures with a broad brush.
I know. and I support their presence here very much. But if I was fieldpiece, I would be raiding this place like king tut's tomb. All I can see are manufacturers nibbling around the edges of a prime rib. I think the potential to develop tools that people will jump all over is huge, and all they have to do is ask a few good people what they want, what they need, and what they think other techs would buy.


mr. bergman is also here quite often although i dohbt testo will change much based on this site. they're just too large worldwide arrogant company for that.

I like a number of things that testo has come up with, but I agree, when was the last time they improved a tool based on tech feedback in order to make a product more durable, or better suited to the field?

I'll throw out an example of an existing product (DRM) that as far as I know, has yet to have a model that automatically calculates the compression ratio. Real simple for a DRM to do, and time consuming for the tech. There's a another example where it doesn't take much in the way of brains to figure out a feature that would be popular and easy to implement.

[chuckcrj]

I'm with you all the way, Darc.

There is a lot of things Fieldpiece does well. Have you tried the STA2 and SRH3?

I love your idea on the compression ratio readout.

[darctangent]

I've been quite happy with the Fluke 52II for all kinds of temp chores. A couple of Testo 605 h2 would do what you indicated in the pic.

Nothing wrong with the 52II in my book, but it's not what I'm talking about. BTW, two 605 H2's would NOT do what I'm talking about.



What I would like to see is a data logger with temp, %RH, volt, and amp inputs on a cell phone type service with automatic alerts. That way when I'm running all over town, the cooler I just fixed could report its status to me.If anyone would like to buy that idea from me it's for sale:grin2:



.

[darctangent]

fluke has a tool that does all of that
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/HVAC-IAQ-Tools/Air-Testers/Fluke-922.htm?PID=56154
i have wanted one for some time but just cant afford the price tag right now

I'm starting to wonder if anybody is actually READING my OP. :gah:

[chuckcrj]

I'm starting to wonder if anybody is actually READING my OP. :gah:




Keep in mind that this thread is about a great deal more than just the tool I'm suggesting. It's about getting the tools we need to do a better job in the field and do it quicker.

feedback?

:grin2:

As for the specific tool in your OP, yes, I would buy one!

[AccurateHT]

I'm starting to wonder if anybody is actually READING my OP. :gah:

Haha! Sorry man, for my part I assumed you wanted wet bulb.

A patent attorney would want to know, what is the unique feature of your idea? That might help us understand the difference between this and a 52II, etc.

Is it the on board probe storage? You said you wanted no buttons. To me that says no features, I like features, even if I don't use them a lot.

[darctangent]

I'm with you all the way, Darc.

There is a lot of things Fieldpiece does well. Have you tried the STA2 and SRH3?

I love your idea on the compression ratio readout.

Thanks, and yes I am currently looking at both of those as they are very cool tools. (if I remember the model numbers right!) They are for in duct testing of wet bulb, and air velocity, with on board calculations for volume, correct?


:grin2:

As for the specific tool in your OP, yes, I would buy one!

Thanks again. I think either atleast some people aren't getting how much easier my "temperature brick" would be to carry and use, or maybe they just don't care. I'm thinking that some people haven't got the concept that the probes slide inside the body of the meter for storage and protection either.

better probes, more durable, less mess, easy to carry and customized to the way we "do business"

and yes it's true I did leave the field open to other stuff, but it seemed a good number of people weren't getting the original concept and I thought that made for a bad start.


PS- I think this tool is right up fieldpiece's alley.

[ICanHas]

The 4 " x 4" dual display thermometer with outdoor probe gets fairly close functionally.

The unit is on 24/7 and the only buttons are min/max and reset. The C/F is changed with a dip switch on the back.

Calibration isn't dead on and unit to unit variation can be considerable for those mass produced consumer units, but the basics are there. Large dual display. It just needs a tighter calibration tolerance and optimized response characteristics.

The one function that would be nice on the front button would be "averaging period". This is different from sampling rate. The display basically refreshes continuously, but instead of reading what the probe reports back, it would report temperatures that is averaged over a span of (xx seconds, as set by the buttons).

Just because a product is tailored for HVAC doesn't mean the core is better. The CPS 220 scale is a good example. It sucks worse than my postage scale.

[pacnw]

"The concept is for a dual temperature thermometer that is easy to carry, setup, read and store. No buttons to push to change the display, a magnet on the back for quick mounting, and a way to store the right kind of probes for taking accurate air temperature readings without them getting damaged.
Oh, hey, lets get a little crazy too. we'll add a central display that tells us the DeltaT too!"

how does this differ from Fieldpiece STA2?

probes are interchangeable for DB or WB, there is either Delta T or individual temp display, magnet on carry case and probes CAN be stored in the case.

Yes, you do have to push a button to switch between readouts, but come on.

As for the 605 H2, they do WB, DB and %RH. Some simple math for Delt T.

[AccurateHT]

Also, for what it's worth, two simultaneous dry bulb air stream measurements are the least of the measurements I need to take. Almost an afterthought in cooling season, and a spec. check in heating.

I have another ten grand in tools to tell me if things are working right.

[darctangent]

Haha! Sorry man, for my part I assumed you wanted wet bulb.

A patent attorney would want to know, what is the unique feature of your idea? That might help us understand the difference between this and a 52II, etc.

Is it the on board probe storage? You said you wanted no buttons. To me that says no features, I like features, even if I don't use them a lot.

no sweat.

The guy I was responding to was pointing to a manometer.... I was like... huh???

I don't know about the whole legal end of it even though I get what you are saying. It's supposed to be a (mostly)dedicated purpose tool that's quick to set up. accurately measures because it's well into the air stream and doesn't flop around inside the duct like a typical K-type. doesn't keep my hands busy because of the magnets and the rigid probe. Is protected from damage in the tool bag because YES, the probes fit inside the body of the meter. Lets not forget that it's compact and it all goes together when you're done so no more "where did my K-type go?? BS

The only part that I don't have 100% in my head is how the probe leads get stored so they don't make a mess, but I have ideas there too.

BTW, I like fluke, and nothing against the 52II, but three bills seems nuts for taking temps in a way that isn't streamlined to the way we do it. The quicker I can do something, the more likely it is to actually get done.

I've got a crapload of tools, and there are times I have to make a choice about what I'm going to carry into that house, and that effects how well I do my job. I like fancy. I also like quick, easy and durable too!!

[ICanHas]

Thanks again. I think either atleast some people aren't getting how much easier my "temperature brick" would be to carry and use, or maybe they just don't care.

I don't necessarily believe in reinventing the wheel, but I agree with you. User interface and ergonomics are everything in things that involve repetitive use.

having features are important, but those that get in the way are more harmful.

Suppose you use function A and C often... but the instrument as A through E and the only way to toggle between is sequentially from A through E...

A.. push push.. you're now in C.
push, push, push. you're now in A.
btw you turned the power off... so it restarts at A.

The infrequently used functions should be there, but they need to be tucked away in a manner that doesn't get in the way of using the features you most frequent.

Car stereos and appliances are like this. While the features look great on sales floor, I only have a few seconds to make the changes I need at the stop light if I have to look. If it's something not as complicated, I value the ability to make the adjustments without looking so I can pay attention to the road.

Factory stereos used to be very well designed. Aftermarket ones with tiny buttons not so much. These days, if you rent a fully loaded car, it takes 3 minutes to figure out how to work the stupid stereo since you have to dive so far into the menu to perform the basic functions.

[AccurateHT]

I also like quick, easy and durable too!!

This is what Testo needs to hear, and one of the reasons Fluke is worth the extra money.

My first years in the field I made $8 an hour. I bought a $15 pocket DMM from Radio Shack and that little thing took a beating (including getting soaked, then a dashboard revival) years later, I finally was embarrassed into getting a real one. My point being, durability doesn't cost much to build, but absent, it can cost us a days work and cost a manufacturer a customer for life.

[itsiceman]

In response to the OP in general I think this is the easiest way to get what you want.
If a idea is good someone will start making it.

Yours looks like it will fit good in a pocket or tool bag and stay all together which is the best part IMO. Wish more tools were like this.

I don't think magnets and K-type sensors together are a good choice though. A magnet screws with the reading of the TC and wouldn't work on duct board either :.02:

[chuckcrj]

One improvement to that idea, you could include some type of sock that would slip over the probes to take the delta WB. These could fit into the tool when not in use.

With my STA2 I could get the CFM and then using the delta WB I could calculate the system BTU/H :yes:

[cavalieri85]

Ol I guess o did not read your post clearly enough. That manometer does aloy more than static pressure though. It will give you temp and td and such. I did think thats kind where you were going. My idea would be to take that tool and.add more.features to it. Why cant we just build on that. If you wanna call out a tool company than lets make it fluke. If they could add some probes and do wet bulb than that would be cool. If im still.way off than let me know. Maybe you could reiterate your description.

[cavalieri85]

Also that fluke does velocity and such its not just a monometer its an airflow.tool with many functions.

[tech56]

from the looks of it IMO i think it would shave a little time off start-ups and some service calls. looks like a handy little tool and as long as the probes weren't heavy i would think they would do ok in duct board, just my opinion tho.

[hvaceric]

OP, check out the Cooper-Atkins MFM300. There is a review of it around here somewhere. I recently got one and it's pretty much everything you want, as I have been looking for a similar tool. I can't say it's perfect, but it will have to do for now, cause it's the only one I could find that does most of what I wanted, and a little extra.