410A v.s. R22

[yakiman3]

I'm a homeowner shopping for a
new furnace and compressor system. I have a 1000 sq ft condo. I'd like
a 13-15 SEER compressor with 80% furnace (direct venting not
possible). I'm currently pricing a variable speed, 2 valve gas,
furnace.

Now, I have the option of R22 or 410A. Environmentally, I'd say 410A,
however economically, I don't know if I can do it right now. I don't
plan on staying here for more than 5 years, so would R22 be sufficient?
I live in NJ and have gotten various prices from a Carrier, Lennox, and Goodman installer (Carrier is out of budget).

I could do a cheaper R22 manufactured by Goodman. Do you know
anything about this company? Would you recommend any other manufacturers?

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

[danglerb]

At same SEER same brand I did not see that much difference in price strictly due to the r22/410 issue, mostly its a stepup in model ranges. When I looked at Goodman I was thinking about the GSC14 model which is r22, but I am not that far off in the York Affinity 3s which is r410a (and 13 instead of 14 seer, but eh). Don't worry about which gas is used.

Installer is more important than the brand.

Stay away from the bottom of the line in cheap brands.

Get at least a 5 year parts and labor warranty on the whole system, and factor that as part of the overall cost when comparing.

I am shopping for the same as you, 13+ SEER, single stage cooling, 2 stage 80% furnace with variable speed blower, but I need a 3 ton for 1850 ft2. If you are looking at 15 SEER you might want to look at the cost to make full tier 2 energystar standards for the tax credits.

When you find a contractor you like, keep in mind you don't have to take the bid as is, they should be willing to work with you to either lower cost, or increase it and get better efficiency etc.

[mjk_na]

Originally posted by yakiman3
I don't
plan on staying here for more than 5 years, so would R22 be sufficient?

Do you know anything about this company?

- Yes. It works fine.

- Goodman is ok, but find reliable contractors rather. Issue of brands will take care of 'itself'.

[yakiman3]

Thanks for your replies. Bottom line is I guess equipment seems to be ok, but I need to find a reliable contractor to get the job done. I live in Central New Jersey. Any recommendations?

I was researching online a bit more last night about 410a and it appears to be very new technology, developed by Carrier. Everything I read said that it "may" be the new replacement for r22. Is it possible there would be some alternative other than 410a in the near future? So why invest in that system now? Also, it appears the installation procedure for 410a is more complex than r22 and there is no "formal" certification required to install this. That alone makes me nervous in that it's new technology and some contractors may try to dabble in installation they are not entirely comfortable with. Perhaps that's reason enough to go with r22 for now.

Any thoughts?

[tmciver]

R410A is an approved and popular refrigerant today.

Sources say it's about 5% more efficient than R-22.
R-22 will become more expensive. It can't be used in new equipment after 2010 (probably doesn't apply to your situation).
A small amount will be manufactured to service existing equipment until 2020.

Don't worry about a contractor "dabbling" with R410A. A good one will know what's what. Do what's best for the system beyond the years you will be living there as well as the present, and don't install something that will eventually become someone else's problem.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Originally posted by danglerb
When you find a contractor you like, keep in mind you don't have to take the bid as is, they should be willing to work with you to either lower cost, or increase it and get better efficiency etc.

What do you mean by this?

I will lower cost only by downgrading equipment of by removing acessories from the job itself.

[kwack]

yakiman3 where are you located in central nj?

[danglerb]

Originally posted by BSCHVAC

Originally posted by danglerb
When you find a contractor you like, keep in mind you don't have to take the bid as is, they should be willing to work with you to either lower cost, or increase it and get better efficiency etc.

What do you mean by this?

I will lower cost only by downgrading equipment of by removing acessories from the job itself.

Thats exactly what I mean, except I also tend to haggle a bit, but thats just me. What I expect from a contractor is to help me work within a budget if I have one, maybe that means 13 seer instead of 14, or R22 instead of R410a, maybe reusing my old lineset ;)

Could be showing me a system from the contractors second line, like my Bryant dealer did with a Rheem system.

**haggle** EEK!
I'm not embarassed talking prices, a professional should know what their time is worth and what to charge, but I understand that many people are very uncomfortable having their value judged in dollars and cents. When I have picked the contractors I would like to do the job, I go over the bids at least one last time to see what they can do on the price, then pick the one that seems best overall.

[phinncraft]

i would go with r22 because some co that make units are haveing trouble with installers that will not draw down the correct vacume on the system.and by not doing so shortens the life of the compressor.the new 410 oil is hydoscopic and if water from the air comes in contact with it it will turn to acid and eat the motor windings on the compressor.
if you chose to go with the 410 system ask the contractor if you can see his micon gauge when they put the vacume pump on the system.

[sirjames]

Originally posted by phinncraft
i would go with r22 because some co that make units are haveing trouble with installers that will not draw down the correct vacume on the system.and by not doing so shortens the life of the compressor.the new 410 oil is hydoscopic and if water from the air comes in contact with it it will turn to acid and eat the motor windings on the compressor.
if you chose to go with the 410 system ask the contractor if you can see his micon gauge when they put the vacume pump on the system.

So what you`re saying is they should hire some hack who doesn`t know how to use a vacuum pump to install their system?

If the customer doesn`t know what to look for in regards to a micron gauge then it won`t matter what type of gauge the installer shows them.

Poorly installed is poorly installed no matter what type of refrigerant is used.

[phinncraft]

i was not at all saying they should hire a hack.more to the point ask someone next time you are at the supply house if they use a mircon guage or if the have nitrogen tank for brazeing.i bet over half dont

[sirjames]

And i use it on every evacuation.

But if the customer doesn`t know what a micron gauge is then I could show them a stopwatch and they wouldn`t know the difference.

Telling someone to go with r-22 because some people don`t know what they`re doing with 410-a is not very good advice because,as we all know,there are plenty who don`t seem to know what they`re doing with r-22 either.

[vinced]

Yak, I also have a 1000/1100 sf condo in NJ (South, Gloucester County)and have just replaced my HVAC system. I could not replace my lineset, so I went with the R22. I got an American Standard (they make Trane)VS, 80% furnace and a 14 seer a/c. Good stuff, very happy with it. Get more than one quote on each brand. I did that. I found that on some brands the difference in the quotes was sometimes 1K to 2K. When I weeded out all the companies who send some crazy "salesman" out, I had quotes from all the majors, Trane, Carrier, American Standard, and Lennox that were within a few hundred dollars of each other and roughly 1k to 2K lower than the companies represented by salesman. AS was the lowest, but that was not the deciding factor. I went with them because of the r22, Trane dealer and Carrier dealer wanted to go with r410. Find local, family owned and operated Trane, American Standard, Carrier, and Lennox dealers and you should be able to get something nice for a fair price. By the way the smallest Goodman/Amana variable speed furnace that they manufacture is way to big for a 1000 sf condo. It will never go to the 2nd stage, so you will have an expensive 1 speed heater unless you keep the windows open in the winter. GOOD LUCK, STAY AWAY FROM THE SALESMAN!!!

[bgrich2003]

yak i work out of morris county nj
if your looking for someone
and your near me
you can email me at XXXX
as far as your dilemma
there are plenty of manufacturers
carrier, bryant, lennox, york, trane, goodman, rheem....
some are the same manufactures with with different names.
I've seen even the cheapest ones last a lot longer than five years with out a problem.
As far as 410 vs 22 if your not an environmentalist and are not worried about 22 being phased out in four years. Then 22 is the way to go

<<<edit: no email addresses in posts. put it in your profile biography. thanks, benny>>>

[Edited by jrbenny on 07-09-2006 at 10:42 PM]

[yakiman3]

Vinced,

Thanks for the great advice. i have been getting quotes from locally owned business that are about 30 - 50 years old. They are way cheaper than the quote I got from Sears. I'd like to communicate regarding pricing, etc. Where can i email you? You can catch me at XXX


<<<edit: no email addresses in posts. put it in your profile biography. thanks, benny>>>

[Edited by jrbenny on 07-09-2006 at 10:41 PM]

[vinced]

I put it in my profile yak. Look at the post and click on profile.

[pyramidhvacr]

http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build02/PDF/b02186.pdf
GOV TEST
R22 VS 410A PDF
CONCLUSIONS
R22 and R410A split air-conditioning systems were tested and compared as outdoor temperature ranged from 27.8 °C (82.0 °F) to 54.4 °F (130 °F). The R410A system tests were extended to 68.3 °C (155.0 °F) ambient temperature with a customized compressor. When outdoor temperature increased, the R410A system performance degraded more than the R22
system performance. While capacities of both systems were approximately equal at the 35.0 °C (95.0 °F) rating point, at the 54.4 °C (130.0 °F) outdoor temperature the R410A capacity was 9 % below that of R22. For the same test points, the R410A COP (EER) was 4 % and 15 % lower than the R22 COP (EER), respectively. The degradation trend was linear. Since both systems employed identical heat exchangers and similar design (scroll) compressors, the refrigerant and lubricant used in each system had the dominant effect on the measured results.:toetap::toetap:

[leander311]

Are you going to dig up every R410A thread ever and post this same junk? How about you also mention it's more efficient below 95F?

For most Americans (and I'm even from Texas making this point), the bulk of cooling load hours come with outside temperatures below 95F. If you don't believe me, download the 8760 Bin OAT data for your area and see for yourself.

[acwizard]

If your situation is solely price driven then R-22 units should be less in price.( if you can find one which meets your needs)R-22 has been around for over 50 years, it has been a proven winner as far as refrigerants go. Refrigerants are composed of different chemicals and back in 1989 a landmark agreement between industrialized nations was signed that would start reduction of ozone depleting substances(Montreal Protocal). R-22 is one of these refrigerants and by 2020 will only be avaiable thru reclamation . Because of this, the price will continue to climb will above R-410 pricing. There are replacement refrigerants on the market for R-22 now but are more expensive than R-410. R-410 has now become the industry standard for all residential a/c equipment and will be around for years to come. The key to any a/c system is how it is installed. Find a good contractor and you should not have any problems with either refrigerants. As far as Goodman, Goodman set the extended warranties that most mfgs. use today. Their warranties are excellent. Good luck in your venture.

[garyed]

.................
I'm not embarassed talking prices, a professional should know what their time is worth and what to charge, but I understand that many people are very uncomfortable having their value judged in dollars and cents. When I have picked the contractors I would like to do the job, I go over the bids at least one last time to see what they can do on the price, then pick the one that seems best overall.

The problem with that is in the service business you don't always win by haggling. You may get the price down but you may also lose more by doing it too. There are too many things that can be done wrong without the customer knowing in our business. A lot of shortcuts that may be taken to get back some of those dollars that were haggled away. I'm not saying it will happen but that's the chance you take. You might win, you might not but getting the price doesn't always mean that you won.

[pyramidhvacr]

http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build02/PDF/b02186.pdf

Read The True Fact's

When
outdoor temperature increased, the R410A system performance degraded more than the R22 system performance. While capacities of both systems were approximately equal at the 35.0 °C (95.0 °F) rating point, at the 54.4 °C (130.0 °F) outdoor temperature the R410A capacity was 9 % below that of R22. For the same test points, the R410A COP (EER) was 4 % and 15 %
lower than the R22 COP (EER)
We all been lied too.
R410A :worthless: this is why r-22 systems back on the market without freon.

[charlesw615]

I'm a homeowner shopping for a
new furnace and compressor system. I have a 1000 sq ft condo. I'd like
a 13-15 SEER compressor with 80% furnace (direct venting not
possible). I'm currently pricing a variable speed, 2 valve gas,
furnace.

Now, I have the option of R22 or 410A. Environmentally, I'd say 410A,
however economically, I don't know if I can do it right now. I don't
plan on staying here for more than 5 years, so would R22 be sufficient?
I live in NJ and have gotten various prices from a Carrier, Lennox, and Goodman installer (Carrier is out of budget).

I could do a cheaper R22 manufactured by Goodman. Do you know
anything about this company? Would you recommend any other manufacturers?

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

amana/goodman have issues with there indoor coil and are hard to get warrenty parts for hope this helps the caparison of r22 to r410a is simple at some point sooner rather than later the price of r22 is going to double. Go for the highest efficiency unit you can afford.

[ask_eddie]

I understand that there are 22 units being made available without 22 in them to get around the federal law. with that being said there is One manufacture driving that so all the others are going to compete with it. And i assume all manufactures still produce a their last 22 coils, this is where it get tricky according to my supplier, it is against federal law to install a complete
22 system, you can replace any componant of the system including the condenser void of freon... but to install a new 22 system is a violation.
My next question is WHY, I've only installed 410a systems for over 3 years now and i know of contractors in the last five years thats all they've installed
What i cant understand is why any company would even consider installing an out dated system with 22, you are doing a dissatisfaction for your customers. ANYONE installing them are probably not the contractors you want to consider for your home installation. If your contractor isnt"comfortable" installing 410a, he is way behind the times and shouldnt be considered for anything.