10 seer vrs 13 seer

[riderman]

Hello, I dont mean to offend the professionals, but I will. My house is HOT. The compressor in my 2.5 ton 10 seer 9 year old janitrol\Goodman heatpump died today. Due to the age, I'm replacing the outdoor unit only. Can I buy it? No. (well, yes, on the internet) I have a reclaim machine, EPA 609\608 type I license, and enough knowledge to be dangerous. Will a 13 seer unit work? Yes IMHO. Will it be as efficient as a new indoor unit with a matched A coil? NO. The consensus, it seems to me, is out on how much efficiency is lost with this mismatch. Seems when "professionals" are being paid by an insurance claim, this mismatch is OK. Trust me here, 3 neighbors, 3 different contactors. When my unit dies, 2 profesionals from 2 of the same companies, state both indoor\outdoor and lines need replaced, HMMM Since, at the minimum, I can purchase a 13 seer, (not really, 10 seer units are still available, check the net, but that would be a no brainer for replacement purposes)what are the negative repercussions of installing a 13 seer condensing unit with a 9 year A coil from the same manufacturer?? I understand the age of components, wear N tear etc in the indoor unit. What about the TX valve, vrs etc, is there any proof other than oppinions? Sorry, guess I'm still mad about the requirement here in Viginia Beach for a Mechanical Contractors License to purchase water detecting paste to rub on a wooden measure to indicate the amount of water in my Mothers underground fuel oil tank. It's a money thing. If not, you people should NOT be able to purchase auto parts. If you install them wrong, you can KILL somebody (read breaks here). I could go on. You can still buy the parts. I cant buy a capacitor for a simple fan motor? As an Certified Electronic Technician and NIASE\ASE Master Mechanic? Aint buying it guys. It's about the Mechanical License and money.

[jacob perkins]

welcome to h-talk, r-man


do what you want, just be careful.


tell us what you do know...like,I say your compressor is fine...and you tell me why it aint.

So whats a matter with the comp.?

[jacob perkins]

.

[chapsieml]

20+ years ago we had to jump through the hoops of certification, licenses, tests, hassles and aggravation. Parts dealers, suppliers, vendors, that did not want to do business with you. Even when you had the paper work, qualifications, KSA etc. We found one that would sale us parts only- at near retail prices where you could not compete, or make a profit. Another vendor would sale us units but only one brand. And we could not buy certain parts, or units no mater what, because we were not one of theirs. Well we saw the jobs that theirs did- and was called in behind some of theirs to fix the messes that theirs left- because we made the effort to be better than theirs. It took 40-60 hours of normal work week (making a living). Then working and an additional 30-40 hours of study after doing your job just to keep up with data increase your knowledge and stay ahead of the curve. We feel your pain, but you need to understand what the professionals have gone through to get where they are.

[danglerb]

I'm not really following this too well. You plan to do the work yourself, buy the stuff off the internet, and your aim is to do a sloppy hack job? Whats the point, buy a decent matched system for not all that much more and see if you can't do a nice job that lasts.

[mjk_na]

I am lost...

[riderman]

Sorry about the rant last night. PO'd and beer...... My point was this HVAC work is for trade profesional's. I understand that and respect the work that you do. Other, NON HVAC people have skills as well. My Sons best friend, a friend who has been to my house since he was 10, was killed on the job last Thursday. We buried him Sunday. He was a HVAC tech working on a second story apartrment outdoor unit, while on a ladder. There were signs of electrocution, as well as a broken neck from the fall. This stuff is serious. I was just trying to fix my broken AC and was given so many oppinions, I got pissed. Bottom line, it seemed, from contractors, if homeowners insurance was paying for the job, replacing only the outdoor unit was fine. If I was paying for it, the SEER factor came into play. I was looking for advice from this forum as to who is correct. Can I replace just my OD unit with a new one? (10 seer Janitrol) Replace just the A coil as well? Or do I need to replace the whole indoor unit, which is the easiest answer. I'd rather not, that attic is HOT.

My annalogy:
I can underastand why you would say that as a contractor. In order for me to GUARANTEE your brakes for any lenghth of time, is to replace\turn rotors, repack wheel brgs, replace front seals, replace that master cylinder and calipers, oh, replace that proportioning valve and old brake lines as well. Shoot, thats only the front..... When the only thing really wrong was your front pads were shot. Yes folks, I understand how it works as well. Am I less of a professional if I do not replace all of these items? Were they all defective, other than age? Will it last a month or 5 more years? No guarantee either way. Would my boss love me if I performed this preventative\corrective maintenance on most vehichles? LOL

As to why I think the compressor is dead. I get the humming for a few seconds when the breaker is closed, then the thermal switch in the compressor opens. The 3 terminals on the compressor when resistance to gnd are measured, read open (infinity). They meghom to gnd fine as well. Resistance between the compressor coils is only a couple of ohms (4-6?). I have 208 VAC supplied to the compressor. I replaced the Start\Run cap from a working unit, same problem. I beat on that compressor with a deadblow hammer while it hums before the thermal switch opens. I have read here that a hard start kit may or may not fix this problem. I also read that eitherway, the compressor is on it's way out. The unit is about 10 years old anyway.

Thanks for any and all advice.

[imperix]

well 208 volts is kinda low anyway id get a hardstart first thing hell some units are hard to start with 240 even anything over 4 tons in FL is mandatory boost kit just about

[riderman]

Shoot, ment to write 228 VAC...My bad

[jacob perkins]

The 3 terminals on the compressor when resistance to gnd are measured, read open (infinity). They meghom to gnd fine as well. Resistance between the compressor coils is only a couple of ohms (4-6?). I have 208 VAC supplied to the compressor.




well,I am glad i ask about the comp.
It sounds like it is stuck and might be "fixable", or might not be.

voltage might be too low

it is possible to change just the compressor, though.




sorry to hear about the kid .

[beenthere]

Ahh, 608 type I is for small appliance containing less then 5 lbs.

Your HP is type II.

I forget who posted it.
But some one posted Bristols test results on a 13 SEER OD HP unit on a 10 SEER indoor unit.

It had a loss of abouot 20% in heating, and 10 to 15% in cooling.
So if your unit is sized right, the same size 13 SEER OD unit with your 10 SEER indoor won't cool your house anymore.

[riderman]

I Understand beenthere, thats why I posted that info. What does that tell ya? I need a profesional? I'll take the other tests soon. This is a hobby for me. I enjoy it, doesnt mean I cant perform the work for a simple residential split system. he he I aint working on R114 systems on Navy submarines or the like.

Mr. Perkins Please, I have family wanting my head. When you state fixable, do you mean a hard start kit? I'll get it tommorrow. Any other Ideas, (preferably TONIGHT) LOL

[jacob perkins]

I am sure that I am on thin ice here h-talk,so
I am not going to break the rules and give step instructions on "what to do to unstick hermetic compressor motor"

that might not even be the problem

but suffice it to say that it can be done, and the instuctions are available in books and so on.It is a fairly dangerous proceedure...

register as a pro and we can talk about this type stuff because. it is a closed forum . I think you will find that this site is not really full of the type stuff you described in your first post

[riderman]

AS expected, the hard start kit didnt work..

I was busting you gurus chops earlier, playing devils advocate. No kidding here, I had two other contractors come over today. Both stated complete system replacement was required. I told them that this was a homeowners insurance job, that insurance would only pay for the defective part\parts, and that I couldnt afford to pay the additional costs for an indoor unit. All of a sudden, no problem with just installing a condenser unit. The worst that would happen, they both said, is that I would keep a 10 SEER rating due to my air handlers A coil limitations. Both claimed a 10 year compressor warrantee. I was concerned about the coil mismatch, as stated here, over taxing the compressor causing pre-mature damage. They would not put it (ten year warrantee) in writing, claiming that was a manufactures warantee, not theirs. HE HE I showed them your responces to these exact questions, which I printed out. Well, they stumbled all over themselves, saying you guy's were right but wrong, etc. Bottom line, I'm installing a new 13 SEER HP with matching indoor unit. As most of you stated, I do not want a hack job.
I went with SEARS..Just kidding. I'm going with a recommended independent.

Thanks Guy's.

[beenthere]

Your welcome.

[riderman]

Wellllllll

I have another gripe about your profesion...LOL

My original unit was a Carrier. Complete set up was replaced by a contractor with a Janitrol unit 10 years ago. As you now, my compressor died. (did I mention the Tech cut my suction line with a tubing cutter without reclaiming the freon?) I know now, I should have stated to the tech, "this system is, as of now, free, right?" LOL Any way, after the install of the Janitrol system, I was chided abot Janijunk, etc. I requested a Carrier unit from my contractor today. He cant purchase one. Claimed that he did not renew his licence with the local supplier for Carrier units. He stated he can get almost any other brand. The guy seems sincere. I'm getting another "Goodman" setup. Ya gatta be kidding me here fellas. I'm not upset at the contactor, I have seen his work. But purchasing games within your own community? Can ya enlighten us common folk? Another question, what does it REALLY take\require to get a Mechanical Contracting Licence? I have heard several conflicting stories.

Thanks

[riderman]

Jeesh, based on my last question, I cant spell :))) Let alone ask a professional question. Typing is a second language for me:)) Please over look the typo's.

Rider

[beenthere]

Mechanical license requirements will vary by the area.

Dealerships are protected.

We can't buy Carrier for residencial either, but we can buy a RTU from them, figure that out.

[riderman]

Cut to the chase here. I fired my contractor. He was worse than some HO types some of you people ***** about. Burned my siding, added two ninety degree fittings to my suction line, melted my OS thermostat thermal couple, pulled a 5 min vacume, want me to continue? I just had a Goodman 2.5 ton 13 SEER condensing unit installed. With my old air handler (10 SEER), super heat is about 12 degrees, checked @75, 80, and 90 degrees ambient. Yes, the original orifice is installed, not a expansion valve. I'm gonna replace the air handler unit soon. 2-3 weeks. VS seems to be the answer. My question: can I purchase a 3 ton air handler (3 ton coil is no problem, I'm told)? Can the fan speed be adjusted? ALL of the contractors giving me estimates in the past week felt the flow through my registers was low. This was a feel of the hand measurement. The fan speed is set to HIGH on my current AH. No leaks in my duct work.

PS My new condenser, as expected, works like the old one. No better, no worse. 2.5 ton is 2.5 ton, reguardlass of the number of condensing coils, imho. No noticicable difference to me or my family in cooling. Will a new larger indoor coil, (read more effiecient), help with cooling? I dont think so. tonnage is tonnage right? I'm thinking it will help with efficiency only. yes? No? Proof?

PSS for you people who said this system would not work, you are wrong) Will it be as efficient as a 13 SEER? I doubt it and you are probably right. Does it work? YES, same as the old one!! Actually a little better. Will the whole system last 12 more years? Dont make me repeat my automotive brake analogy again......LOL Face it, R22 pricipals are the same, reguardless of.....

[lonnirat]

I am just curious of where you have accumulated all of your knowledge in this particular field? You seem to have your own answers for all of the questions you have presented here, so why ask the members of this forum?

[beenthere]

Yes the cfm is setable on a VS blower.

Its cooling, but doutbful its giving you its full cooling capacity.

[imperix]

LOL here we go again,is it running right as a HO or right as a professional A/C Tech. The compressor will probaly die in a year and your efficency is probaly somewhere around the ring in your toilet bowl, But other than that its perfect

You can have a system that runs right to you but still Die a horrid Death, because the compressor can`t handle the load properly

[riderman]

Xplain to me lucy. (imperix) I aint your average HO IMHO my friend.:)) I am superdad to my kids...LOL My back round is close, VERY close to this type of work. I gave ya the Superheat. The air temp diff between the return and nearest supply vent to the AH coil is about 13 degrees, consistant throughout the day, utilizing a Fluke digital thermometer (dual input). My high side is 190\low 67 at 79 degrees ambient. RH is about 53%. The indoor temp is 74.

I'm not asking anyone to TS\diagnose my system for me. For example, if the charge seems low, I'm not asking here how to charge it. I explained previously some of the work "profesional" people like yourself have performed for me lately. If it wasnt for this forum, people like you could perform shabby work, make your smart a@@ comments and, in my case, would have gotten away with it.

Forums like this have a consensus of opinion from really sharp experts in their field. I repect them, all. To repeat, it is a 13 SEER condensing unit matched to a so-called 10 SEER airhandler. A liquid line filter was installed. The airhandler will be replaced in a couple weeks. Saving up the jack, but at least the family is cool for now. I was just showing the stats here. Some here said it would not work at all, some said it would, but efficiency would suffer, you state it's gonna die. I was asking the pro's opinion,ie Beenthere, based on these stats, to see if they see a problem, not how to fix it. The system seems fine, IMHO, even though I understand the need to replace the AH. I'm sure it will be better with the new AH, I now have stats to compare. Based on these stats, I would like to know why the "compressor is going to die a horrible death". You may, in fact be right, I just dont agree. Of course, I'm just a HO. :))) Are the specs out of whack in the experts opinion? Again, I'm not asking how to repair it. I may be asking in the wrong site or forum, if so, I appologize.

Thanks

[hillbilly tech]

As long as you put a matching a-handler with that 13 seer your all right,but if ya leave that 10 seer a hanler on that thing warranty will not go through as far as i know and what ive been told.But if you dont care about warranty leave the sucker on there its just money and ive never done it to know,but im apt to give it a shot on mine if ever need be,but ya never know.

[billva]

have another beer, larry.

[riderman]

I am just curious of where you have accumulated all of your knowledge in this particular field? You seem to have your own answers for all of the questions you have presented here, so why ask the members of this forum?

You have a valid question sir. I was a Niase\Ase master mechanic, journeyman electrician, now an electronic Tech. working on my EE. I appreciate the work you HVAC techs do, and understand there are good and bad tech's, I have worked with both all my life in several fields.

I have worked side by side with HVAC techs for over 20 years. We help each other out, in the course of our jobs. I learn from them all.

As to providing my own answers, this is to inspire discussion. Am I wrong in my analysis? Prove it. We will all learn from the responces, even you my friend. I may be mistaken, but I think I read about you installing certain systems for 8 years. That is great, but I think we both can learn from others with less expierience as well as people doing this work for 30 years.

I LOVE tapping peoples minds and share my knowledge without holding back. In fact I'm tasked with training all personel at my job. Engineers and tech's alike. They love the knowledge that I glean from forums such as this.

I appreciate people like you sharing with us all your invaluable, hard earned knowledge.

Rich

[Chill]

Not enough info, what was your SLT and LLT? The 12 degrees SH at 75 to 90 degree ambient, don't sound right. SH should go down as outdoor ambient goes up.

[riderman]

billva Stated: have another beer, larry

billva

This is not slam, but can you please explain this comment? If he is wrong, Why? Would he be right if he replaced the whole system for the sake of insuring compatability and a warrantee? Will it work properly if he doesnt replace the AH? If not, will stats\specs show the incompatibility? I read the "wont work" replies, just looking for proof or specs. I'm Just asking here, no offence intended. please read a previous post of mine with an automotive analogy, and bring your car to my shop. I think your front brakes are squealing..:))) I live in southern Va. LOL

[riderman]

Chill

Thank you for the reply. I'll get that data tommorrow and get back to ya.

Rich

[riderman]

imperix

By the way, the group is still waiting for data , for you to back up your smart ass remarks. Flippin hack with a HVAC backround. You give the pro's a bad rep with us HO's.

Rider, to you pal

billva......

Were waiting on your profesional responce as well.

lonnirat

I answered your question Sir. Can you please answer mine?

Beenthere, and other pro's...We thank yee

[AIR PRO]

Riderman,
First of all...you have entirely too much anger built up. Maybe you should take a vacation or j**k off or something.

Second.. you come off as a know it all a**hole putting down OUR trade, why would you expect anyone to help you?

Third..you REALLY have no clue in what you are talking about, you should stop looking things up on the internet and crawl up in a corner somewhere.

In closing, I think you are a pompous wife beating pansy that doesn't know the differance between a reed valve and piston ring. Idiot!

sorry jules, he deserved it!

[Edited by Hawk327 on 07-15-2006 at 03:39 AM]

[riderman]

I'll stop with hawks post.

You are a pompus a@@ Ya dont even know your own trade. Most here help others. Ya criticize the consumer, your customer, for asking questions. You cant answer them properly, so you criticize. You are a little man in life, so yo rant on the internet like a big man. I guess I dont get it. Some people just need a arse whipping I guess.....LOL Ya gatta quit drinkin hawk. Gonna lose it all my friend.........

[imperix]

First off rider i was speaking from personal experience probaly 50% of tech`s probaly would end up with the wrong piston in it because belive it or not the piston has to match the BTUs to work CORRECTLY.

As far as me being a hack belive what you want i run a very successful Mechanical Contracting Company in S Fl.

When the Local American Standard or pioneer distributer have a problem with another contractor`s work i`m the one they call for help

Im truly sorry if i pissed you off but if i had a dollar for every consumer that told me they took Air Conditioning in school so they know what is right (even though its not right)id be a millionare

[riderman]

imperix

I Understand. Point well taken. I was reading your responces. Think I read the bad ones first. My bad. :)))

Rider

PS
It is really cool to see people like you helping people like me.....

[riderman]

Chill
You are the man..or a another wannabe...LOL

you asked: Not enough info, what was your SLT and LLT

Please re read my original post.

Geesh, I gave every spec but the Kitchen sink for a tech to give a reasonable responce. I'm basing this on my knowledge and several contractors who have came to my home, let alone questins posted by the pro's on this site. This site has pissed off some contractors here in Va Beach.....LOL I showed them coments from this site. None knew what the hell you were asking. Either you were slamming me for my lack of knowledge of your trade. meaning you attempted to put me "in my place", so to speak or, you are full of bull.

No one on this site ever asked me this type of question before, and my contractors were clueless. We must all be stupid, or ill informed, or not properly trained I work for the government, trust me here, he he... I can give you so many acronyms and abbreviations your head will swell if that is your test of knowledge.

I just would like a reasonable answer to a reasonable question...Can you please re-read my original post and answer with a decent responce?....

PS
If SLT is suction line temp and LLT is liquid line temp, that is not enough requested info from you. At what outdoor ambient? What is the indoor wb or DB return\supply temp you want me to record at the same time as I record this data?

Bottom line, with the data given, is my system gonna die a slow death? Other than "yea", I ask why?

Remember, although I'm replacing the AHU soon, several people stated my system would not work. OHH it is 71 degrees in here as I type.

Rider

[imperix]

no one can guarantee life or death just a possibilty and there are alot of factors that people dont know because units werent designed to run that way and most companys wont do it

since the government decided 13 seer as a base unit you might see more of this practice by some contractors and there might be answers coming soon but as for me i wouldnt install the system when you mix and match you never know what your gonna have



[Edited by imperix on 07-16-2006 at 01:29 PM]

[RoBoTeq]

Why is this much technical information being discussed in an open forum with someone who basically has no respect whatsoever for our trade?

Rider has issues because of past hack work; and now he wants to do more hack work. Why is this even being entertained?

[AIR PRO]

Originally posted by riderman
I'll stop with hawks post.

You are a pompus a@@ Ya dont even know your own trade. Most here help others. Ya criticize the consumer, your customer, for asking questions. You cant answer them properly, so you criticize. You are a little man in life, so yo rant on the internet like a big man. I guess I dont get it. Some people just need a arse whipping I guess.....LOL Ya gatta quit drinkin hawk. Gonna lose it all my friend.........

I thought you said you were going to stop with my post? I don't criticize my customers because they know better than to self diagnose their own unit...they call a licensed professional(ME). I will not answer your questions because you are a homeowner trying to get free info that we have worked hard and spent alot of money to obtain/retain.
I also do not take kindly to threats, so if you really feel that I need an "arse whipping" and that you are the man to do it, my email address is in my profile. I'll be glad to give you the opportunity!

[lonnirat]

Originally posted by riderman
imperix

By the way, the group is still waiting for data , for you to back up your smart ass remarks. Flippin hack with a HVAC backround. You give the pro's a bad rep with us HO's.

Rider, to you pal

billva......

Were waiting on your profesional responce as well.

lonnirat

I answered your question Sir. Can you please answer mine?

Beenthere, and other pro's...We thank yee

riderman, sorry for the delay in answering the question you posed, but business has been brisk in my area recently to say the least. I'am not sure to what your actual question to me was, but if you are here to pick the brains of experts, you came to the right place. I learn somthing new every time I'm here.

[riderman]

lonnirat

Thank you for the reply sir. Did you read 42yrs exp's write up? I think he answered every flippin last question I had, except one. Awsome post. Same exact problems we were\are having.

The "One" question left: With a newer 13 seer A coil, can I go with a half ton higher coil (3 vrs 2.5 ton) with no problem as long as the TX or oriface is matched to my 2.5 ton 13 SEER condenser? Any issues I need to know about? I have conflicting data.

Again, thank you for your time, and all others, for responding.

Rich

[lonnirat]

With the evaporator coil , yes but I will usually drop the blower speed a notch depending on the circumstances of the install.

[riderman]

lonnirat
Professional Member stated:

With the evaporator coil , yes but I will usually drop the blower speed a notch depending on the circumstances of the install

Thanks Man. My duct work can handle the 3 ton air volume, so I'm told, after I had the 2.5 ton condenser installed. GRRRR ( I say that because other houses my size have been upgraded to 3 ton units) I have learned from here, that dont mean crap. LOL Oh well, lessons learned I guess. I'll do as suggested, 3 ton coil reduced fan speed? VS air handler is scheduled to be installed. Any issues?

Hey. no attitude here..promise......

[wasson]

If it's a money issue and you can buy a 10SEER install it.If not buy a 13SEER.Line sizes should be 7/8 & 3/8. If not changing indoor unit an expansion valve should be installed to get your money's worth out of the new unit.

[lonnirat]

I would do a little more homework if I were you. Just how sure are you that your existing ductwork can properly handle the increased CFM's? Variable speed is not a proper cure for a poorly designed and installed duct system. Seek further evaluations from reputable contractors.

[riderman]

lonnirat

Good point. One contractor stated that since I had 15 6" duct supplies that it could handle 3 tons. I'll get another oppinion.

Thanks

[riderman]

Hawk327

Jeesh, Hawk. What can I say? The silly phsical aspect of the discussion almost told me to meet ya. I was in Southern FL til Friday evening....Wanted to travel to your place and...get arrested....LOL DUMB, on my part. ( I was thinking of the day) Sorry for the slam on this forum. I was wrong. I come here asking for advice then braged about my knowledge in the next sentence.......I'm the dumb ass. Guess after 30, ya get a little more wiser.....LOL

GEESH guy's..ever screwed up in your life and regreted it?

Rich