How to fix healthcare

[chaard]

This is just my opinion but I believe it will work and would be the best solution to the rising costs and the answer to those uninsured.

There was a time when I was paying $900 for health insurance just for my wife and 2 kids. That didn't even include me. That was as much as a house payment. Ridiculous. No wonder people don't want to buy health insurance.

Here's my plan. It's pretty simple. Hospitals need to offer their own medical plans. There is a walk in clinic here in town that does this. http://www.fmwic.com/affordable-healthcare-memberships.html

Instead of us giving all of our money to third party (insurance) companies and the hospitals losing money to these same (insurance) companies we could keep more of our money and the hospitals would take in more offering medical plans.


For example, a person could pay the hospital $50 a month/ $200 for a family. $35 co pay 10% deductible and all prescriptions could be filled in house for less than other pharmacies. just my :.02:

[corny]

What does this walk in clinic do when you have a heart attack or stroke or some other major problem....

Most insurance....if not all that I am aware of now...covers these catastrophic events...

With the memberships at places like the one you linked too...... you would be sol if something major happened and you needed surgery and or hospitalization.

[chaard]

What does this walk in clinic do when you have a heart attack or stroke or some other major problem....

Most insurance....if not all that I am aware of now...covers these catastrophic events...

With the memberships at places like the one you linked too...... you would be sol if something major happened and you needed surgery and or hospitalization.

I was talking about hospitals. I only used that clinic as an example.
This could be done on a larger scale with a little higher premium and deductible.

We need to cut out the middle man. Insurance companies rip us off and the hospitals. That's why they charge $8 an aspirin. So when the Insurance co. only pay them $1they breaking even or profit a little.

We just need to cut out the middle man.

[printer2]

I was talking about hospitals. I only used that clinic as an example.
This could be done on a larger scale with a little higher premium and deductible.

We need to cut out the middle man. Insurance companies rip us off and the hospitals. That's why they charge $8 an aspirin. So when the Insurance co. only pay them $1they breaking even or profit a little.

We just need to cut out the middle man.

We cut out the middle man a long time ago up here.

[coolwhip]

I like the simplicity of it.......stupid insurance companies!:gah:

[Brian GC]

Not until the insurance companies break the backs of the employers that provide “free” medical to their employees will we see a change.

Secondly, not enough people realize we have a health insurance problem because they get it for 75% off. I suppose I wouldn’t care either if I got “free” health insurance from my employer.

As for Canada's nationalized healthcare system, we have been lied to about it. It is much better than has been described to us. But try competing with our medical industry's propaganda machine.

[chaard]

Canadas system may work fine, but isn't that what Obamacare essentially is? Gov run healthcare.
Our healthcare needs to stay between the Dr. and the patient. No third parties involved. Just my :.02:

[coolwhip]

I have several Canadian friends from Windsor and Toronto...they say their health care system sucks.

[corny]

As long as insurance companies have their hooks in our elected officials we are going to have to deal with them for a looooooooong time.

And there isnt any way that I know of to get the hooks out.

We could fire all our congressmen who wont do anything about the insurance industry but that wont work....because most of are afraid to vote our elected officials out and even if we vote new people in they are going to be ust a willing to listen to the insurance industry and their boatloads of cash than they are to us working joes....and janes...

[AC5096]

The biggest problem I see with healthcare is demand. We are a nation of hypochondriacs. You cannot turn on the TV and see an ad for every sort of ailment under the sun. How many of us when watching these commercials have symtoms they describe? I can't watch a enlarged prostate commercial without having an urge to go pee!They want us running to the doctor for every ache and pain. We need to the realize we aren't going to live forever, and medical treatments to extend life are damned expensive.

I have good health ins., but limit my doctor visits. If I get seriously ill all I could afford is Morphine to hasten the inevitable.

[Space Racer]

What does this walk in clinic do when you have a heart attack or stroke or some other major problem....

Most insurance....if not all that I am aware of now...covers these catastrophic events...

With the memberships at places like the one you linked too...... you would be sol if something major happened and you needed surgery and or hospitalization.

Instead of universal coverage, we should just have catastrophic coverage, and pay for the day-to-day stuff out of our pockets or through a (group or individual) medical savings account. Most of what we spend on insurance is for the day-to-day things, and these are relatively cheap expenses compared to the catastrophic stuff. They are expensive now because they are covered by an industry driven out of control by medicaid, medicare, and class action trial lawyers. IIRC, these clowns have the biggest lobby on the Hill.

Drop your universal coverage, get catastrophic coverage, and find a doctor or a clinic who only accepts cash, not insurance. They are out there, and they're a lot cheaper, because they and their staff spend most of their time taking care of patients, not insurance companies.

[chaard]

Instead of universal coverage, we should just have catastrophic coverage, and pay for the day-to-day stuff out of our pockets or through a (group or individual) medical savings account. Most of what we spend on insurance is for the day-to-day things, and these are relatively cheap expenses compared to the catastrophic stuff. They are expensive now because they are covered by an industry driven out of control by medicaid, medicare, and class action trial lawyers. IIRC, these clowns have the biggest lobby on the Hill.

Drop your universal coverage, get catastrophic coverage, and find a doctor or a clinic who only accepts cash, not insurance. They are out there, and they're a lot cheaper, because they and their staff spend most of their time taking care of patients, not insurance companies.

Good point. We don't run to our car insurance co. everytime the car breaks down.

[printer2]

Canadas system may work fine, but isn't that what Obamacare essentially is? Gov run healthcare.
Our healthcare needs to stay between the Dr. and the patient. No third parties involved. Just my :.02:

Doctors are not employed by the government and the hospitals are not run by the gov either. The government (Provincial and Federal) just pay the bills, courtesy of the taxpayer.

[printer2]

I have several Canadian friends from Windsor and Toronto...they say their health care system sucks.

I never figured you to be one that hangs out with whiners.

[coolwhip]

I never figured you to be one that hangs out with whiners.

You're right, But they are in they same vintage motor cycle club as I am. Its a Detroit - Windsor club, so I have little choice.

[printer2]

You're right, But they are in they same vintage motor cycle club as I am. Its a Detroit - Windsor club, so I have little choice.

Heck, you are pretty much one bridge away from being Canadian. Bet you even understand hockey.

[geerair]

Doctors are not employed by the government and the hospitals are not run by the gov either. The government (Provincial and Federal) just pay the bills, courtesy of the taxpayer.This is a point that most critics of universal healthcare refuse to recognize as it destroys one of their major talking points.

[coolwhip]

Heck, you are pretty much one bridge away from being Canadian. Bet you even understand hockey.

Sure I do....I luvz hockey ball!

[Six]

I was talking about hospitals. I only used that clinic as an example.
This could be done on a larger scale with a little higher premium and deductible.

We need to cut out the middle man. Insurance companies rip us off and the hospitals. That's why they charge $8 an aspirin. So when the Insurance co. only pay them $1they breaking even or profit a little.

We just need to cut out the middle man.


Hospitals and Insurance companies are not evil or greedy.
The reason you pay 8 bux for an aspirin is because of price shifting.

Your paying fir the multitudes of illegal immigrants and people who have no insurance who enter into a ER knowing that its against the law for them not to treat you.

You want to blame someone blame the.politicians both D and R that let 20 million peiple spill across our borders uninvited.

[chaard]

Hospitals and Insurance companies are not evil or greedy.
The reason you pay 8 bux for an aspirin is because of price shifting.

Your paying fir the multitudes of illegal immigrants and people who have no insurance who enter into a ER knowing that its against the law for them not to treat you.

You want to blame someone blame the
Politicians both D and R that let 20 million peiple spill across our borders uninvited.
My post wasn't about placing blame or illegals. The second half of your comment brings up a whole nother issue that needs to be addressed elsewhere. But since you brought it up, illegals could buy into this same medical plan I proposed. The less illegals and uninsured we have taxing the system the cheaper it will get.

[geerair]

Hospitals and Insurance companies are not evil or greedy.
The reason you pay 8 bux for an aspirin is because of price shifting.

Your paying fir the multitudes of illegal immigrants and people who have no insurance who enter into a ER knowing that its against the law for them not to treat you.

You want to blame someone blame the.politicians both D and R that let 20 million peiple spill across our borders uninvited.Illegal immigration has dropped by almost 2/3 in the past ten years yet healthcare costs have risen significantly during the same period.

[Brian GC]

Hospitals and Insurance companies are not evil or greedy.
The reason you pay 8 bux for an aspirin is because of price shifting.

You’re paying fir the multitudes of illegal immigrants and people who have no insurance who enter into a ER knowing that its against the law for them not to treat you.

You want to blame someone blame the. Politicians both D and R that let 20 million people spill across our borders uninvited.

There is not doubt the insurance companies are paying the highest price for hospital services but what I cannot figure out is why the insurance companies do not object in any way. If an operation that should cost $5,000 gets billed to the insurance companies at $10,000 while Medicare, Medical and cash patients get charged $3,000, why don’t the insurance companies sue for being overcharged. It is all in black and white and could be brought in the courts.

If the hospitals are indeed using insurance company money to support other losses within their hospital it could easily be revealing in their bookwork and should be illegal.

As a contractor could you imagine telling a customer "I have to charge a little extra because the last guy ripped me off?"

[Brian GC]

Illegal immigration has dropped by almost 2/3 in the past ten years yet healthcare costs have risen significantly during the same period.

But over 90% of them are still here and more broke than ever.

Less people have insurance and fewer people have to cash to settle up with the hospitals.

And, more people are apt to hold onto their last few dollars rather than handing it over to the hospitals. They’d rather go BK.

[geerair]

But over 90% of them are still here and more broke than ever.

If you see illegal immigration as the cause of rising healthcare costs and given that illegal immigration has dropped by 2/3 as well as the alien population dropping by 1.6 million, then that means that these costs should have stabilized if not decreased.

[Six]

So there are roughly 5% less illegal immigrants now ?

Where are you getring your data ? Whos counting ?

And have you been to an ER lately ?

[Six]

Illegal immigration has dropped by almost 2/3 in the past ten years yet healthcare costs have risen significantly during the same period.

Data please. Links ? Anything ?

So assuming your numbers are correct hundreds of thousands are still entering the S illegally.

It just mwans the influx has slowed.

A coue of years ago Dallas biggest hospital, Parkland reported 2/3 of chilsrwn norn in itsaternity were from illegal immigrants.

[geerair]

Where are you getring your data ? Who counting ?Heritage Foundation article.

Do you have a problem with them as well as with wiki?

[Six]

There is not doubt the insurance companies are paying the highest price for hospital services but what I cannot figure out is why the insurance companies do not object in any way. If an operation that should cost $5,000 gets billed to the insurance companies at $10,000 while Medicare, Medical and cash patients get charged $3,000, why don’t the insurance companies sue for being overcharged. It is all in black and white and could be brought in the courts.

If the hospitals are indeed using insurance company money to support other losses within their hospital it could easily be revealing in their bookwork and should be illegal.

As a contractor could you imagine telling a customer "I have to charge a little extra because the last guy ripped me off?"

Medicare and Medicade under pay physicians. Doctors have neen dropping those paitents like hot potatoes.

Hospitald cant so more price shifting to the insurance companies to make zp the difference.

[scrogdog]

Heritage Foundation article.

What? You didn't burn your fingers? :grin2:

[geerair]

What? You didn't burn your fingers? :grin2: Yes but all in the good cause of bringing education to the appallingly uninformed. :grin2:

[tunnel_rat]

The first step to "fixing" this system, is to get the govt out of it. Our healthcare is not their job. They'd like it to be, but it's not. Of course alot of what they do is not their job and that is why it all goes to hell. Hasn't anyone noticed that yet????? Nothing the govt sticks their nose in actually "works" or "helps" it's intended group. All it does is empower them more and diminish all of our rights. Is EVERYBODY asleep out there??? This ain't rocket science people.

[printer2]

The first step to "fixing" this system, is to get the govt out of it. Our healthcare is not their job. They'd like it to be, but it's not. Of course alot of what they do is not their job and that is why it all goes to hell. Hasn't anyone noticed that yet????? Nothing the govt sticks their nose in actually "works" or "helps" it's intended group. All it does is empower them more and diminish all of our rights. Is EVERYBODY asleep out there??? This ain't rocket science people.

Well that was constructive.

[Hugh B]

Government should have nothing to do with health care. Health care was non existent when this country was founded. Our forefathers did not have health insurance. The idea was generated later by businessmen.

There is no such thing as health insurance as a right. In fact, that argument has never even been discussed. What is a right?

The constitution says nothing about health care as a right. The bill of rights does not address insurance of any kind as a right.

Health insurance is a personal concern and if I can't pay for it I don't get it. You do not owe me health insurance. Nor do I owe you health insurance!

This is a personal choice if you can afford it and you should not have to have it if you can afford it but choose not to have it. I may want to spend my income on something else. So I choose to go without it and take my chances. In fact, I do not have fire insurance on my home and have invested what I would have paid in fire insurance in income generating securities. Again, my choice. If my home burns down I am the one who took the chance and take personal responsibility for my choice. That is how real choice works.

The government should not force me into a contract that I would not otherwise agree to. I believe in freedom and responsibility!!!!

Hugh B

[printer2]

Government should have nothing to do with health care. Health care was non existent when this country was founded.

We never had TV either.

[Hugh B]

We never had TV either.

Right. And TV is not a right either. So what is your point?

[Brian GC]

This is a personal choice if you can afford it and you should not have to have it if you can afford it but choose not to have it.

That is a very shallow statement. If people “choose” to not have health insurance they would need to have a couple hundred thousand dollars sitting there ready to pay for that unforeseen tragedy. Do you see that as a reality? Or are you saying they should just stick it to the state as they are now?

On another note: I have to say that you not insuring your home to save a couple hundred bucks a year is crazy. Did you know that if your house burns down as a result of a wildfire or from your neighbor’s house causing the fire they are not responsible for your losses?

[AStudent]

Government should have nothing to do with health care. Health care was non existent when this country was founded. Our forefathers did not have health insurance. The idea was generated later by businessmen.

There is no such thing as health insurance as a right. In fact, that argument has never even been discussed. What is a right?

The constitution says nothing about health care as a right. The bill of rights does not address insurance of any kind as a right.

Health insurance is a personal concern and if I can't pay for it I don't get it. You do not owe me health insurance. Nor do I owe you health insurance!

This is a personal choice if you can afford it and you should not have to have it if you can afford it but choose not to have it. I may want to spend my income on something else. So I choose to go without it and take my chances. In fact, I do not have fire insurance on my home and have invested what I would have paid in fire insurance in income generating securities. Again, my choice. If my home burns down I am the one who took the chance and take personal responsibility for my choice. That is how real choice works.

The government should not force me into a contract that I would not otherwise agree to. I believe in freedom and responsibility!!!!

Hugh B

That could be argued....although it does not mention anywhere in the constitution that healthcare is a right with those exact words, our constitution does say that congress has the duty of providing for the general welfare of the United States.

What is more important than healthcare? If the country as a whole is unhealthy then nothing at all can be accomplished, including having a military which the Constitution speaks highly of having.

The definition of General is:

Affecting or concerning all or most people, places, or things; widespread

The definition of welfare is:

The health, happiness, and fortunes of a person or group.

[joemach]

Government should have nothing to do with health care. Health care was non existent when this country was founded. Our forefathers did not have health insurance. The idea was generated later by businessmen.

There is no such thing as health insurance as a right. In fact, that argument has never even been discussed. What is a right?

The constitution says nothing about health care as a right. The bill of rights does not address insurance of any kind as a right.

Health insurance is a personal concern and if I can't pay for it I don't get it. You do not owe me health insurance. Nor do I owe you health insurance!

This is a personal choice if you can afford it and you should not have to have it if you can afford it but choose not to have it. I may want to spend my income on something else. So I choose to go without it and take my chances. In fact, I do not have fire insurance on my home and have invested what I would have paid in fire insurance in income generating securities. Again, my choice. If my home burns down I am the one who took the chance and take personal responsibility for my choice. That is how real choice works.

The government should not force me into a contract that I would not otherwise agree to. I believe in freedom and responsibility!!!!

Hugh B

So you are saying that you don't have a ring in your nose to be lead around by a government run a muck?

Well, good for you !!!

[CraziFuzzy]

There are hostpitals/health plans that work this way. Kaiser started out this way, as a 'pre-paid medical coverage,' and still functions this way. This has quite a few positive effects, most importantly, because the premiums directly relate to the cost of care (kaiser's hospitals are non-profit), this results in the healthplan, doctors, medical staff, etc, focusing more and more on preventative medicine, and whole body health, because cutting health care costs becomes in the primary interest of the provider. Now if only they could get OSHPD and other intrusive government regulators out of the way, they could be even more successful, and have much lower premiums.

[printer2]

Right. And TV is not a right either. So what is your point?

It's a different world.

[dsprice]

Touchy subject and everyone brings up good points...

Federal government does not have the authority to impose, "Obama Care"
California is bankrupt due to healthcare provided to illegal immigrants.
I do not own a 200k house. I do not drive a 40k truck and neither does my wife. The only reason I have a flat screen hd tv is because it was a gift. See where I'm going with this? I tell my friends who complain they can't afford insurance that they are full of crap. They can afford it, they choose not to. I have no doubt most people reading this have some sort of coverage and understand.

We live in a free market system where payment for services is based on quality. Doctors compete in the same system. Although the link in the first post is a good idea, what would make doctors strive to be the best they can be under that system? What kind of quality would you expect?
Someone mentioned Canada. Seriously? Where do you think they go for the major operations? How much do they owe in tax revenue just for being born?

Everyone declares they have rights. Only one post in this thread mentioned the other half of that...we also have responsibilities.

Look, is the healthcare system out of control? Yes it is. But its not the insurance companies that are the problem, its the healthcare system itself that is the problem...

You have pain in your knee, so you get an X-ray. There's nothing to be seen so you get an ultrasound, still nothing. Now you get a ct scan...nope, nothing there. Ok, schedule an MRI and finally you found the problem. So why didn't the doctor schedule the MRI first and save you the wasted money on all the other imaging?

I could go on forever with this topic but I think I've rambled long enough.



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[Brian GC]

Touchy subject and everyone brings up good points...

Federal government does not have the authority to impose, "Obama Care"
California is bankrupt due to healthcare provided to illegal immigrants.
I do not own a 200k house. I do not drive a 40k truck and neither does my wife. The only reason I have a flat screen hd tv is because it was a gift. See where I'm going with this? I tell my friends who complain they can't afford insurance that they are full of crap. They can afford it, they choose not to. I have no doubt most people reading this have some sort of coverage and understand.

We live in a free market system where payment for services is based on quality. Doctors compete in the same system. Although the link in the first post is a good idea, what would make doctors strive to be the best they can be under that system? What kind of quality would you expect?
Someone mentioned Canada. Seriously? Where do you think they go for the major operations? How much do they owe in tax revenue just for being born?

Everyone declares they have rights. Only one post in this thread mentioned the other half of that...we also have responsibilities.

Look, is the healthcare system out of control? Yes it is. But its not the insurance companies that are the problem, its the healthcare system itself that is the problem...

You have pain in your knee, so you get an X-ray. There's nothing to be seen so you get an ultrasound, still nothing. Now you get a ct scan...nope, nothing there. Ok, schedule an MRI and finally you found the problem. So why didn't the doctor schedule the MRI first and save you the wasted money on all the other imaging?

I could go on forever with this topic but I think I've rambled long enough.

Do you currently have health insurance? And if so, do you pay for it out of pocket or does you or your wife's employer pay for it?

[dsprice]

I pay through my employer for both of us

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[Hugh B]

Do you currently have health insurance? And if so, do you pay for it out of pocket or does you or your wife's employer pay for it?

If I don't choose to have or pay for health insurance then I pay for my medical and doctor's visits directly out of my own pocket. I only get the care I can pay for and no more.

I stated earlier that I do not and never have carried fire insurance on my home. Instead I invested that money elsewhere. If my home burns down then I take the loss.

There are two sides to the equation. I have the freedom to make my own choices and take the personal responsibility for the results. I do not believe the government has any obligation to care for me. I don't want the government to pay my way nor do I want to be forced to purchase their idea of some social insurance, health care or other insurance. And, I should not be forced to pay for yours nor you mine.

At the same time I take the responsibility for my choices!!!!

Social Security, welfare and government imposed health insurance are not what the government should be involved with. Nor are any of these things in the constitution as rights nor were they the intention of our forefathers.

[Brian GC]

I pay through my employer for both of us

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Then I would venture to say you pay about one third the going rate for health insurance if bought on the open market.

My point is that people who get “free” health insurance as you do are in no position to tell others that have to pay full price for it what they can afford. Do you even know what health insurance really costs for a family of four? It’s more than a $200,000 house.

[Brian GC]

At the same time I take the responsibility for my choices!!!!


So we should trust that you and anyone else that does not have health insurance have a couple hundred thousand dollars sitting there in case of a tragic accident or emergency medical treatment and hospitalization?

[Six]

Heritage Foundation article.

Do you have a problem with them as well as with wiki?

You are hillarious. After exposing yourself as practically pathological on multiple post you expect people to believe you actually read a article from the heritage foundation.

True reading anything from that orginization will keep you well informed but let me remind you I asked for links, not your lies.

Do you NOT know how to include links into a post on a forum ? THAT I believe.

Just FYI the daily kos has a froum too. I used to routinely go there and expose the lying hypocrites that call that place home.

Your empty propoganda would be well recieved amongst the moonbats.

[dsprice]

Then I would venture to say you pay about one third the going rate for health insurance if bought on the open market.

My point is that people who get “free” health insurance as you do are in no position to tell others that have to pay full price for it what they can afford. Do you even know what health insurance really costs for a family of four? It’s more than a $200,000 house.

Yes I do know what it cost. I have paid out of pocket before and it wasn't even half that for 2 people...if you or someone you know actually pays 200k then someone is being robbed. Sorry, Brian, but those numbers aren't realistic based on actual experiences.

I might add that my current coverage isn't free...after the premium and copay, I actually pay more on deductions and out of pocket now than I did with my own policy under the same group I have now.

My point to my original post is that if someone's cost of living is too high and they are sacrificing health insurance to keep a high standard of living then their priorities are backwards. Typical of my generation. They want immediate gratification with no responsibility.

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[geerair]

You are hillarious. After exposing yourself as practically pathological on multiple post you expect people to believe you actually read a article from the heritage foundation.

True reading anything from that orginization will keep you well informed but let me remind you I asked for links, not your lies.

Do you NOT know how to include links into a post on a forum ? THAT I believe. Well now here I make an effort to find a source that should be acceptable to even the wingnuttiest of wingnuts yet you still moan and whine.

I guess unless it is pulled directly out of Limbaugh's ass it is invalid.

Of course pulled out of asses seems to be the wingnut's preferred source of knowledge.





Just FYI the daily kos has a froum too. I used to routinely go there and expose the lying hypocrites that call that place home.Well, everyone needs a hobby.




Your empty propoganda would be well recieved amongst the moonbats.As delightfully tempting as that sounds, the need of my prodigious talents on this forum is of critical urgency.

Besides, I feel confident that the daily koss folks can easily flick away gnat-brained right wingnut buzzes without my help.

[Tommy1010]

how to fix healthcare

answer fix the economy first, then the debt, then the deficit, then worry about healthcare

[WebCTRL]

Illegal immigration has dropped by almost 2/3 in the past ten years yet healthcare costs have risen significantly during the same period.

There are 20 million plus still here, maybe the rate of them coming has dropped but the vast amount of illegals are still here and are still a burden on gov't furnished services and healthcare!

If you cut that by 2/3, imagine the effect on healthcare costs!!!

Also, even if we did cut out the middle man (insurance companies) you still have the cost of litigation, which is way out of control until some form of tort reform is put in place.

[Brian GC]

Yes I do know what it cost. I have paid out of pocket before and it wasn't even half that for 2 people...if you or someone you know actually pays 200k then someone is being robbed. Sorry, Brian, but those numbers aren't realistic based on actual experiences.

I might add that my current coverage isn't free...after the premium and copay, I actually pay more on deductions and out of pocket now than I did with my own policy under the same group I have now.

My point to my original post is that if someone's cost of living is too high and they are sacrificing health insurance to keep a high standard of living then their priorities are backwards. Typical of my generation. They want immediate gratification with no responsibility.


If you are basing what you used to pay for insurance to what it costs now you are out of touch. It’s now much, much more because of Obama screwing with it (among other things).

Comparing the cost of insuring a family of four to the purchase of a $200K home, it is very close. With $20K down and a $180K loan your payment would be about $1,000/mo. or $12k a year. Health insurance for a family of four would be about $800/mo plus the $2,500 out of pocket deductible each year. Plus you have to figure in the rising cost of the insurance over thirty years. Not so with a home loan.

[Hugh B]

So we should trust that you and anyone else that does not have health insurance have a couple hundred thousand dollars sitting there in case of a tragic accident or emergency medical treatment and hospitalization?

Very simple. What is there to trust if the system simply denies service to anyone who is unable to pay for the service. Everyone should be held responsible for their own bills. If you can't pay for something you don't get it. Nobody else should be responsible to pay for my care nor I for yours.

You seem to be totally conditioned to think that others have some responsibility for your care. It need not be that way. I want freedom and am willing to take the responsibility that goes with it.

[WebCTRL]

Well now here I make an effort to find a source that should be acceptable to even the wingnuttiest of wingnuts yet you still moan and whine.

I guess unless it is pulled directly out of Limbaugh's ass it is invalid.

Of course pulled out of asses seems to be the wingnut's preferred source of knowledge.




Well, everyone needs a hobby.



As delightfully tempting as that sounds, the need of my prodigious talents on this forum is of critical urgency.

Besides, I feel confident that the daily koss folks can easily flick away gnat-brained right wingnut buzzes without my help.

Well then geer, post the article you reference? It seems you want to say you use a Heritage Foundation article but refuse to post a link. Put you money where your mouth (or keyboard)is...:grin2:

[WebCTRL]

If you are basing what you used to pay for insurance to what it costs now you are out of touch. It’s now much, much more because of Obama screwing with it (among other things).

Comparing the cost of insuring a family of four to the purchase of a $200K home, it is very close. With $20K down and a $180K loan your payment would be about $1,000/mo. or $12k a year. Health insurance for a family of four would be about $800/mo plus the $2,500 out of pocket deductible each year. Plus you have to figure in the rising cost of the insurance over thirty years. Not so with a home loan.

Actually my healthcare plan for a family of 4 plus the out of pocket costs runs about $16K/yr. Ridiculous huh, but it is my choice to pay that, not the governments dictate. With 2 young children, that is a priority.

And let's clear one thing up, when an employee of a company get coverage from it's employer, it is not free! The Company pays for it, so what happens, if said employee chooses not to have his insurance through the Company any longer? Well, the Company then drops said employee and the Company doesn't pay anymore...Can the employee then negotiate with the Company to have that money then put back in his paycheck? Yes! So then he could pay for a plan on his own, or he could get coverage via his spouse's employer. Either way, it should be his choice, right?

And when I looked into this, I could find very comparable plans out there that my family or other employees' families could purchase on there own.

So, the notion of getting free healthcare is just simply wrong, but if that is your way of looking at it, why wouldn't that be a motivator for those that some people say can't afford coverage, to go out and get a job with said coverage.

[Brian GC]

Very simple. What is there to trust if the system simply denies service to anyone who is unable to pay for the service. Everyone should be held responsible for their own bills. If you can't pay for something you don't get it. Nobody else should be responsible to pay for my care nor I for yours.

You seem to be totally conditioned to think that others have some responsibility for your care. It need not be that way. I want freedom and am willing to take the responsibility that goes with it.

You speak very idealistically but it isn’t based in reality. A hospital will give you emergency service irrespective of your ability to pay. What they will do though afterwards is take your house and all your assets to pay for that month stay in their hospital.

I doubt you could sit out a ruptured spleen because you don’t have the assets to pay for the treatment. You will go to the hospital and learn the hard way.

I don’t want anyone else to pay for my medical treatment. That is a right wing talking point that is meant for the ignorant. Having insurance or paying into a system IS being totally responsible.

[chaard]

Social Security, welfare and government imposed health insurance are not what the government should be involved with. Nor are any of these things in the constitution as rights nor were they the intention of our forefathers.


Truth be told some if not many of our founding fathers were socialists. Thomas Paine for one. Read Agrarain Justice and Common Sense. I'm working on showing that we were founded more on socialist beliefs than Christian beliefs.
But that's a thread for another day.

[Hugh B]

You speak very idealistically but it isn’t based in reality. A hospital will give you emergency service irrespective of your ability to pay. What they will do though afterwards is take your house and all your assets to pay for that month stay in their hospital.

I doubt you could sit out a ruptured spleen because you don’t have the assets to pay for the treatment. You will go to the hospital and learn the hard way.

I don’t want anyone else to pay for my medical treatment. That is a right wing talking point that is meant for the ignorant. Having insurance or paying into a system IS being totally responsible.

Hospitals should not be required to service those who cannot pay. That includes myself. I should be able to choose to have insurance or not. If I cannot pay for insurance or the care directly then I suffer the consequences.

I have gone without insurance in the past and have lived with what I am suggesting. I currently do not have fire insurance on my home nor do I have collision on my cars. If a mishap occurs I suffer the consequences of my decision.

Others should not be responsible for me nor I for them. It is not the governments affair to pay my way nor to force me into a contract of their choosing.

[newoldtech]

You speak very idealistically but it isn’t based in reality. A hospital will give you emergency service irrespective of your ability to pay. What they will do though afterwards is take your house and all your assets to pay for that month stay in their hospital.

I doubt you could sit out a ruptured spleen because you don’t have the assets to pay for the treatment. You will go to the hospital and learn the hard way.

I don’t want anyone else to pay for my medical treatment. That is a right wing talking point that is meant for the ignorant. Having insurance or paying into a system IS being totally responsible.

I agree. These guys that are saying they will take their chances will be the first ones at the emergency room getting free treatment while the rest of us who are being responsible have to pay for it. If it were possbile for our hospitals to really turn away emegencies then maybe we could debate it. But since that is unlikely to happen anytime soon this argument is alot of hot air. Bottom line is everyone eventually gets sick and needs costly medical care so the responsible thing is to pay for it along the way.

[Space Racer]

Unhealthy Health Care

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/222518/unhealthy-health-care/linda-halderman#

Switching to a high-deductible plan in conjunction with an HSA would decrease the cost of heath insurance and the cost of health care.

[geerair]

Well then geer, post the article you reference? It seems you want to say you use a Heritage Foundation article but refuse to post a link. Put you money where your mouth (or keyboard)is...:grin2:Why, I wouldn't dream of depriving you boys of the educational opportunity of honing your search skills.

I probably already hindered your educations by giving you a solid lead.


Afterall isn't it conservative doctrine and fetish that "to give a man a link only feeds him for a day but teach him to search and he can feed himself for a lifetime."

[WebCTRL]

Why, I wouldn't dream of depriving you boys of the educational opportunity of honing your search skills.

I probably already hindered your educations by giving you a solid lead.


Afterall isn't it conservative doctrine and fetish that "to give a man a link only feeds him for a day but teach him to search and he can feed himself for a lifetime."

I called that one. You are too predictable... LOL!

[WebCTRL]

Why, I wouldn't dream of depriving you boys of the educational opportunity of honing your search skills.

I probably already hindered your educations by giving you a solid lead.


Afterall isn't it conservative doctrine and fetish that "to give a man a link only feeds him for a day but teach him to search and he can feed himself for a lifetime."

BTW, the article you reference from Heritage refers to those numbers (the 2/3 you quoted) as reported by a Pew Hispanic Center report, it isn't their number plus it references the drop in population as a report from the Dept. of Homeland Security which says plainly that the number is an estimate.

As we all can read between the lines, that reported number is waay low because you know the Census workers don't get to all the illegals to inlcude in their report.

But I guess my question for you is, do you think the illegal population has an effect on the cost of healthcare in the U.S.?

[geerair]

BTW, the article you reference from Heritage refers to those numbers (the 2/3 you quoted) as reported by a Pew Hispanic Center report, it isn't their number plus it references the drop in population as a report from the Dept. of Homeland Security which says plainly that the number is an estimate.

As we all can read between the lines, that reported number is waay low because you know the Census workers don't get to all the illegals to inlcude in their report.

But I guess my question for you is, do you think the illegal population has an effect on the cost of healthcare in the U.S.?See was that so hard?

I used Hertiage as a source, I didn't say it was their number.

All of these numbers are estimate, did you somehow believe they weren't?

Do you have numbers to rebut this?


An effect on health care? Certainly, but that wasn't the point.

Comm77 blamed rising healthcare costs on illegal immigration.

The point being that illegal immigration has dropped drastically in the same period that healthcare costs continued to rise.

Comm77 assertion is not supported by the evidence.

[Six]

See was that so hard?

I used Hertiage as a source, I didn't say it was their number.

All of these numbers are estimate, did you somehow believe they weren't?

Do you have numbers to rebut this?


An effect on health care? Certainly, but that wasn't the point.

Comm77 blamed rising healthcare costs on illegal immigration.

The point being that illegal immigration has dropped drastically in the same period that healthcare costs continued to rise.

Comm77 assertion is not supported by the evidence.

I said price shifting was the reason for the insured paying higher prices an used illegal aliens as one example.


I cant be blamed for your poor reading comprehension.

You posted a lie about getting a source from heritage and then when confronted failed to produce the link.

Liberals are so predictable.

[tunnel_rat]

Very simple. What is there to trust if the system simply denies service to anyone who is unable to pay for the service. Everyone should be held responsible for their own bills. If you can't pay for something you don't get it. Nobody else should be responsible to pay for my care nor I for yours.

You seem to be totally conditioned to think that others have some responsibility for your care. It need not be that way. I want freedom and am willing to take the responsibility that goes with it.

Sounds utopian, huh? The govt already takes from all of us to pay for others who contribute nothing. Why don't you piss and moan about that? Welfare, food stamps, etc...... ER service and healthcare is not the national crisis it is made out to be by the left. Don't be a lemming. Plenty of cash could be saved to pay for healthcare and more if the govt was held accountable for their irrisponsible actions. Want everyone responsible for their own bills?? OK, lets start from square 1. NO govt handouts. PERIOD. I'd go for that. If you're not gonna get serious about it, don't jerk me around.

[Hugh B]

Sounds utopian, huh? The govt already takes from all of us to pay for others who contribute nothing. Why don't you piss and moan about that? Welfare, food stamps, etc...... ER service and healthcare is not the national crisis it is made out to be by the left. Don't be a lemming. Plenty of cash could be saved to pay for healthcare and more if the govt was held accountable for their irrisponsible actions. Want everyone responsible for their own bills?? OK, lets start from square 1. NO govt handouts. PERIOD. I'd go for that. If you're not gonna get serious about it, don't jerk me around.



You are going after me as if I support those programs. I do not! I oppose welfare, food stamps, social security, government health insurance and other such handouts which are all at the expense of the taxpayer.

In my opinion, none of these are the function of government. These programs are the path to socialism. Less government is nearly always better government. I am willing to take personal responsibility for myself and pay my own way thru life.

For those who may use my position to claim I am heartless they are wrong! Unlike Obama, Biden and a host of other liberals I actually give away several thousand dollars a year to charities of my choice. And since I am personally active in those charities I am able to see first-hand that my giving is not misused. I currently am allowing a military vet live free of charge in one of my apartments until he gets back on his feet.

[tunnel_rat]

Point taken....Didn't mean you support that. But if we're gonna fund anything, they want to fund everything. Got to stop it altogether.

[Hugh B]

Point taken....Didn't mean you support that. But if we're gonna fund anything, they want to fund everything. Got to stop it altogether.

Agreed!!!

[printer2]

Touchy subject and everyone brings up good points...

Federal government does not have the authority to impose, "Obama Care"
California is bankrupt due to healthcare provided to illegal immigrants.
I do not own a 200k house. I do not drive a 40k truck and neither does my wife. The only reason I have a flat screen hd tv is because it was a gift. See where I'm going with this? I tell my friends who complain they can't afford insurance that they are full of crap. They can afford it, they choose not to. I have no doubt most people reading this have some sort of coverage and understand.

We live in a free market system where payment for services is based on quality. Doctors compete in the same system. Although the link in the first post is a good idea, what would make doctors strive to be the best they can be under that system? What kind of quality would you expect?
Someone mentioned Canada. Seriously? Where do you think they go for the major operations? How much do they owe in tax revenue just for being born?

Everyone declares they have rights. Only one post in this thread mentioned the other half of that...we also have responsibilities.

Look, is the healthcare system out of control? Yes it is. But its not the insurance companies that are the problem, its the healthcare system itself that is the problem...

You have pain in your knee, so you get an X-ray. There's nothing to be seen so you get an ultrasound, still nothing. Now you get a ct scan...nope, nothing there. Ok, schedule an MRI and finally you found the problem. So why didn't the doctor schedule the MRI first and save you the wasted money on all the other imaging?

I could go on forever with this topic but I think I've rambled long enough.



Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Do you know what you are talking about? Over the years I have been here we have gone over this a few times and I found out many of you are paying in insurance premiums for a family about what I pay in income tax for a year. Where do you get the idea that we do not do our own operations? Show me some statistics on how many Canadians leave the country for their health care? We have a different payment system here but otherwise our health care is not much different than what you have.


Actually caught up with all the posts and in this thread it was said some of you play more to insure your families than I pay tax.

[geerair]

I said price shifting was the reason for the insured paying higher prices an used illegal aliens as one example.


I cant be blamed for your poor reading comprehension.It appears you don't recall your last statement in your post. You confirmed that illegal immigration is the cause of rising healthcare costs.

A bit later on you posted an item about illegal immigrants having babies in a Dallas hospital.

You sure blabbered volumes about illegal immigrants for someone claiming not to be talking about illegal immigrants.






You posted a lie about getting a source from heritage and then when confronted failed to produce the link.My source was indeed Heritage.

Web central even found the article. Something you could have easily done instead of whining and crying.







Liberals are so predictable.More projection.

[Brian GC]

Switching to a high-deductible plan in conjunction with an HSA would decrease the cost of heath insurance and the cost of health care.

I thought the same thing but was wrong.

I was told by Blue Cross that each (my) policy is reviewed annually by the insurance commission and rate increases are based on usage of each policy. So I though a high deductible would be used less and therefore would see the least in rate increases.

Wrong! I just got a 20% increase. But an extremely high deductible would keep people out of the doctor's office for every little ache.

[Brian GC]

Do you know what you are talking about? Over the years I have been here we have gone over this a few times and I found out many of you are paying in insurance premiums for a family about what I pay in income tax for a year. Where do you get the idea that we do not do our own operations? Show me some statistics on how many Canadians leave the country for their health care? We have a different payment system here but otherwise our health care is not much different than what you have.

Actually caught up with all the posts and in this thread it was said some of you play more to insure your families than I pay tax.

You can testify as a firsthand witness to the quality of health care in Canada until the cows come home, they will not listen. They believe the descriptions of your healthcare which is told to them by our healthcare mouthpieces and Fox News. And, with so many people not believing that we have a crisis rheum job being put upon us, we deserve what we are getting. Maybe when rates go to $3,000/mo we will wake up. But when they do, they will tell us who to blame...and we will beleive them. So again, we're screwed.

A question for the opponents of a national healthcare system: You say we want something for nothing, in other words we won’t pay for it. I guess that means someone else will, like maybe you? Well, do Canadians not pay for their healthcare?

[dsprice]

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2004/06/01/canadian-health-care-no-model-us

And that's just the first article...there are many published articles that name sources. If sources aren't referenced, I kinda doubt personal testimony.

I do not doubt Canada has good health care, I just doubt its the same quality as here in US. Why should high end surgeons strive to be the best? The pay is the same for the one who is great at it as it is for the one fresh out of school. Of course there are doctors in Canada that are very qualified and are very good at what they do. So, do you get to pick your surgeon or are you assigned?

Despite Brian's flaming post(s), I have actually been looking into the subject of healthcare for quite a few years now and would enjoy comparing notes with you.

BTW, Brian, yes healthcare has gone up since Obama took office, but its still not 200k annually. If you are paying that much you are being hustled. If you are paying half that, you are being hustled. Do you have coverage? Your own policy or through your employer? How much, really, do you pay?

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

[dsprice]

Oh, and to answer your question, Brian, yes! Canadians do pay for healthcare. At least tax paying citizens do. How else does the government, any government for that matter, generate revenue to pay for this? Do you really not know or understand how this works? Or do you want to rephrase your question?

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[Brian GC]

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2004/06/01/canadian-health-care-no-model-us

And that's just the first article...there are many published articles that name sources. If sources aren't referenced, I kinda doubt personal testimony.

I do not doubt Canada has good health care, I just doubt its the same quality as here in US. Why should high end surgeons strive to be the best? The pay is the same for the one who is great at it as it is for the one fresh out of school. Of course there are doctors in Canada that are very qualified and are very good at what they do. So, do you get to pick your surgeon or are you assigned?

Despite Brian's flaming post(s), I have actually been looking into the subject of healthcare for quite a few years now and would enjoy comparing notes with you.

BTW, Brian, yes healthcare has gone up since Obama took office, but its still not 200k annually. If you are paying that much you are being hustled. If you are paying half that, you are being hustled. Do you have coverage? Your own policy or through your employer? How much, really, do you pay?



There are about six Canadian posters here on HVAC-Talk who strongly defend their nationalized healthcare system. Therefore I would not take that article at face value until I read a rebuttal to it. And, why would you doubt personal testimony but believe that article? For instance it is easy to lie with facts. An example would be to publish the long wait times but not include that the fact that critical cases get pushed to the front of the line which I’ve been told is the case. If people are dieing from waiting in line then they should publish that, but they aren’t.

Canada may have mediocre healthcare compared to our Ferrari care but at least everybody gets care and nobody is going bankrupt over it. Here the bulk of the people do not seem to care because their employers are paying two-thirds of their premiums. True, they may be able to opt out but that just means they’d have to pay the same amount elsewhere.

As for the comparison between healthcare for a family of four and a $200K home, a poster here just stated his healthcare premium is $1,600/mo. That monthly outlay would pay for a $300,000 house, not including the 10% annual escalation of a healthcare premium.

BTW – I do have health insurance through Blue Cross. I am a self employed General Contractor so I don’t get the employer gravy train policy. In a way I insure myself through having a policy with an $8,500 deductible, 100% coverage over that amount. I also have an $8,500 account ready to spend/lose it at any time. So I would pay the first $12,000 of health care each year for me and my son. Basically the same as if I had a 100% policy that cost $1,000/mo. I just choose to play the odds and keep my money in my pocket.

[dsprice]

So you spend 12k out of pocket for two people annually? Far cry less than 200k...the exact same amount as my, "gravy train" and I'm sure your copay and rx is also the exact same as mine.

So where do you get flamed remarks from? It appears you are the one that that regurgitates what you hear in the media instead of using actual stats for a basis to your arguments.

Honestly, its ok to have an opinion and I'm willing to hear yours. Just don't believe that I can take your trolling seriously when you obviously are not informed. Actually, I think calling you uninformed gives you more credit than you deserve...

Argue with me with facts....not bs...

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[AStudent]

One big fighting point against universal healthcare is that people seem to think it's just someone trying to get something that's paid for by other people but does insurance not work the same way? Either way you may be taking more money than you have paid in, with the promise to pay it back at a later date, the only difference is where the money goes.

If I pay taxes on government paid healthcare but rarely if ever make a claim, those taxes will either go towards someones healthcare, or towards building roads, funding schools, keeping our military alive, paying our police and fire departments etc.

If I pay an insurance company and rarely if ever make a claim, that money will go towards someones healthcare or the companies profit, which for all I know that company could be based outside of the country.

So in what way benefits me more?

[Hugh B]

What benefits me most is having the choice to have or not have insurance at all.

If I choose to have insurance it is to my benefit to choose which plan I deem best for me at that period in my life, what level of coverage I desire to pay for and which of the many insurance companies I want to go with.

When the government runs things they ALWAYS screw it up! Social Security is a prime example. A total screw job. Government health care will be similarly messed up.

At least with a private insurance company I can switch companies and/or plans. Private entriprise is always better than government services.

[dsprice]

What benefits me most is having the choice to have or not have insurance at all.

If I choose to have insurance it is to my benefit to choose which plan I deem best for me at that period in my life, what level of coverage I desire to pay for and which of the many insurance companies I want to go with.

When the government runs things they ALWAYS screw it up! Social Security is a prime example. A total screw job. Government health care will be similarly messed up.

At least with a private insurance company I can switch companies and/or plans. Private entriprise is always better than government services.

Choice is exactly right!

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[AStudent]

What benefits me most is having the choice to have or not have insurance at all.

If I choose to have insurance it is to my benefit to choose which plan I deem best for me at that period in my life, what level of coverage I desire to pay for and which of the many insurance companies I want to go with.

When the government runs things they ALWAYS screw it up! Social Security is a prime example. A total screw job. Government health care will be similarly messed up.

At least with a private insurance company I can switch companies and/or plans. Private entriprise is always better than government services.

I understand that is your outlook and you have every right to that belief.

My belief is that I know government screws up....but I also know companies screw up...why else would our government have to bail them out? I also know many companies will play you for a fool and treat you as a peon...at least government will provide my kids a school, and pave a road so that I can drive them there.

I agree with your point about having choice, but as I understand it universal healthcare will allow private insurance companies to stay in business, just as it is so with our neighbors North of us. Canada has many private insurance companies and I believe it could work the same way here in America, leaving us our choices.

The bill that is in the works now does not state that you must buy government healthcare...but that you must have some form of healthcare or be fined. Many people are complaining about this, but I don't see our nation standing up against car insurance..what's more important your arm or your windshield?

In a way forcing people to have healthcare makes sense, do you realize how many people are going bankrupt in this country because they thought they could pay their bills on the spot if an emergency happened but found out they were completely wrong? The number is around 60% of all bankruptcies in America.

Not to mention the companies that are then taking huge hits from people not paying their bills, and having to pass the cost onto someone else....there is the reason for rising healthcare costs.

Just like when the first cars came out, we now have to do something to make people pay their medical bills, the country is hurting because of it.

[Hugh B]

I understand that is your outlook and you have every right to that belief.

My belief is that I know government screws up....but I also know companies screw up...why else would our government have to bail them out? I also know many companies will play you for a fool and treat you as a peon...at least government will provide my kids a school, and pave a road so that I can drive them there.

I agree with your point about having choice, but as I understand it universal healthcare will allow private insurance companies to stay in business, just as it is so with our neighbors North of us. Canada has many private insurance companies and I believe it could work the same way here in America, leaving us our choices.

The bill that is in the works now does not state that you must buy government healthcare...but that you must have some form of healthcare or be fined. Many people are complaining about this, but I don't see our nation standing up against car insurance..what's more important your arm or your windshield?

In a way forcing people to have healthcare makes sense, do you realize how many people are going bankrupt in this country because they thought they could pay their bills on the spot if an emergency happened but found out they were completely wrong? The number is around 60% of all bankruptcies in America.

Not to mention the companies that are then taking huge hits from people not paying their bills, and having to pass the cost onto someone else....there is the reason for rising healthcare costs.

Just like when the first cars came out, we now have to do something to make people pay their medical bills, the country is hurting because of it.

Comparing car insurance to required personal health insurance are not at all the same. I am required to carry car insurance to protect someone else from me. I am not required to insure the loss of my car just the other persons car and person.

With personal health insurance the government is forcing me to cover myself or pay a fine. The governement has no business protecting me from myself. The same goes for wearing a seat belt. It should not be against the law to not wear a seat belt. That is the business of my auto insurance company. My auto insurance company could write that into my policy. I don't wear a belt and am injured they dont pay.

We need less and less government. Nearly everything the government does is messed up. If the government cant get Social Security coverage right I cant trust them to get health coverage right either. I maintain when the government runs health care we will get inferior health care. Doctors will be told when I qualify for treatment, which treatment, how much treatment and how much the doctor is paid. It will be inferior to what a private plan would be. As soon as government gets involved they then take on more and more control until they totally control that area.

If I want to sue my private health insurance company I can do so. Every try sueing the government? Cant unless they agree. You Lose!

Every service government provides costs many times what it would if private industry did it. Our schools are a mess. Government education is next to no education at all. Only the richer citizen can afford to pay the private school tuition while at the same time being forced to pay the taxes for the public schools and school vouchers are not allowed. And if that is not bad enough the government is regularly encroaching on the private schools as well as homeschoolers trying to tell them what and how to teach. Public schools dont work and they still want to control the private and homeschoolers.

Government screws up everything it gets its hands on and you want it to control health care insurance. I want less government not more.

If some family moves into the woods and starts living off the grid the goverment will be right there to arrest them for failing to have health insurance and homeschooling their kids without the government's special permission.

I cant even own an AR15 in the state of California and it is identical in firing power to my California legal ranch rifle. Government just intrudes in our personal lives and in many cases does nothing more than cause unnessary grief to individuals who just want to be left alone to live our lives.

Government is now the biggest threat to my constitutional right to the persuit to happiness.

[allan38]

Most of the time when companies screw up, the government lets them fail.
The market redistributes the resources and customers to someone who takes better care of them.

When government is involved, it is both the provider and overseer of the process.
This is like letting the fox guard the hen house. However all the chickens are now put in one large hen house and makes it easier for the foxes to steal all the chickens they want. Lie and steal, lie and steal, lie and steal.

We are humans. We are not angels or demons. We will look out for our own self interest and look to game any system to our advantage.
Humans in government are no different. The free market allow choices, competition for business encourages providing the best services. The tension of interests between the buyer and seller or the provider and the customer limits scope of the self interest games. The is no limit on the government but the constitution and the people armed with both ballots and bullets.. Government has proven to be a game easy to manipulate by those in power and the force levels possible by government allows little choice.

BTW, there is a difference in powers between the federal and state government.
A state can tell you to wear seat belts and buy car insurance.
The federal government was not delegated those powers by the people in the US constitution.
All powers not delegated were reserved for the states or for the people. You can only squeeze so much into the interstate commerce clause and the general welfare clause.
We also have choice of what state to live in if we don't like the laws. We can also get laws changed on a state level. Thus the legalization of medical marijuana and gay marriage in some states.

[Hugh B]

Most of the time when companies screw up, the government lets them fail.
The market redistributes the resources and customers to someone who takes better care of them.

When government is involved, it is both the provider and overseer of the process.
This is like letting the fox guard the hen house. However all the chickens are now put in one large hen house and makes it easier for the foxes to steal all the chickens they want. Lie and steal, lie and steal, lie and steal.

We are humans. We are not angels or demons. We will look out for our own self interest and look to game any system to our advantage.
Humans in government are no different. The free market allow choices, competition for business encourages providing the best services. The tension of interests between the buyer and seller or the provider and the customer limits scope of the self interest games. The is no limit on the government but the constitution and the people armed with both ballots and bullets.. Government has proven to be a game easy to manipulate by those in power and the force levels possible by government allows little choice.


Absolutely correct! The government should never bail out any company. Let even the largest firms fail. Someone else will enter the market and provide that product more efficiently. The customer will choose the company that best meets their needs and wants. Government will never do that. Government limits our choices, provides an inferior product or service and controls our lives more and more. Even fining us or arresting us for resisting their control.

The eventual end is socialism or worse.

[barbar]

You talk about choice, choice is all dependent upon the amount of wealth and privileged you have.
A child had no choice to be born, it has no choice in its parents, no choice in what environment it lives in.
Many have no choice in what medical aliments they have.
Many have no choice in the ability to earn wealth and privilege.
You are simply showing that you have no respect for others, and that self is the only issue that matters.
If you had any humility about you, then you should be promoting compulsory euthanasia, and yet I have not seen any of you promote this issue. Your comment indicate that those who can not afford health care, should just die a slow and agonizing death, would you do that to your dog or horse.
So stopping sitting on the fence, promote the real issue "survival of the fittest/wealthiest" and stopping hiding behind, the blame game. "as mother nature intended"??????????????

[AStudent]

Absolutely correct! The government should never bail out any company. Let even the largest firms fail. Someone else will enter the market and provide that product more efficiently. The customer will choose the company that best meets their needs and wants. Government will never do that. Government limits our choices, provides an inferior product or service and controls our lives more and more. Even fining us or arresting us for resisting their control.

The eventual end is socialism or worse.

I agree with you on some aspects...but the only reason government is corrupt is because we the people allow them to be. We live with our cozy lifestyle, afraid to petition anything as we might lose our cozy lifestyle.

We are in control of the government...and if they fail whose fault is it? You can blame them, but in really it is us who are at fault due to our failure to act, especially since we are the ones that voted them into office to begin with.


Personal choice is an amazing thing, but at what cost is it still acceptable?
Personal choice to kill someone?
Personal choice to switch grocery stores?
Personal choice to bankrupt the country because we feel that people are competent enough to pay their own bills when in reality people are not?

When it comes to bailing out companies, do you really think that during one of the worst recessions in nearly a century when unemployment is skyrocketing that we should allow companies that employ hundreds of thousands of people, to fail? By doing so you are signing the death warrant of your country...where are those people going to work when the rest of the jobs have moved overseas or are not hiring due to a tough economy? Do you really want unemployment rate to be 12% instead of 8% and even more people on food stamps?

I agree that our schools are a mess...but do you really think a private company is going to charge you any less or control you any less than the government? Take private schools for instance, they are going to charge you an arm and a leg per child you enroll, while forcing their own idea of control onto you and your kids. Think they won't arrest you if you come onto their property to express yourself against their control? Wrong. Many of these private schools hire security guards from other private companies to do just that.

I look at companies and government as one in the same...they are both corrupt, both greedy, and liars. The only difference in my eyes is government has an obligation to give back to the community, while companies often give to charities they have no official duty to do this, so can they be counted upon to give back?

[printer2]

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2004/06/01/canadian-health-care-no-model-us

And that's just the first article...there are many published articles that name sources. If sources aren't referenced, I kinda doubt personal testimony.

I do not doubt Canada has good health care, I just doubt its the same quality as here in US. Why should high end surgeons strive to be the best?[ The pay is the same for the one who is great at it as it is for the one fresh out of school.

Where do you get the idea? I work in a complex that is part hospital, research facility that has part of a university medical school attached to it. Doctors, nurses, pharmacists, dentists, and a host of others get trained here. We have doctors that are fresh faced and just starting out and others that have worked to the top of the income ladder.


According to the WRHA's latest annual staff compensation report, released Tuesday, 35 of the 50 highest-paid staff are ER doctors.

Many even out-earned some of the WRHA's best-known senior administrators, including president and chief executive officer Brian Postl and Dr. Brock Wright, the senior vice-president of clinical services.

Last year was the first full year of a hefty fee increase that started in the summer of 2007 designed to woo doctors into the city's four community hospital emergency rooms. The deal offered doctors salary hikes worth between 25 and 50 per cent, making them among the highest-paid ER physicians in the country.




Of course there are doctors in Canada that are very qualified and are very good at what they do. So, do you get to pick your surgeon or are you assigned?

We get to pick our own doctors. But as probably with you, just because you want to go to a particular doctor does not mean the doc has to take you. I was seeing one doctor and he decided to specialize in seniors. He referred me to another doctor which I went to for a while. Now that I moved across town I wanted to see a doctor closer to home and chose a clinic to go to. They had a few doctors there, a couple already had enough patients but two were still taking some, so I picked between them.

Picking surgeons is the same way. Your doctor refers you to s surgeon and you can take him or ask for another. The more popular ones are booked up a lot more so it may take longer to get your procedure done. If you need emergency treatment, usually you get who ever is on call at the time or who has a slot open.


Despite Brian's flaming post(s), I have actually been looking into the subject of healthcare for quite a few years now and would enjoy comparing notes with you.

BTW, Brian, yes healthcare has gone up since Obama took office, but its still not 200k annually. If you are paying that much you are being hustled. If you are paying half that, you are being hustled. Do you have coverage? Your own policy or through your employer? How much, really, do you pay?

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I will not pick apart the article even though I see a number of points to dispute. But you can see where the author's mindset lies.


My own personal contacts with Canadians support a recent article in the Montreal Gazette, in which a Canadian woman described the frequent rudeness of unionized Canadian medical staff as compared to the "kindness, discretion, and professionalism" of staff members in U.S. hospitals. Few Canadians can afford to experience health care in the U.S. and thus make this comparison.

[printer2]

There are about six Canadian posters here on HVAC-Talk who strongly defend their nationalized healthcare system. Therefore I would not take that article at face value until I read a rebuttal to it. And, why would you doubt personal testimony but believe that article? For instance it is easy to lie with facts. An example would be to publish the long wait times but not include that the fact that critical cases get pushed to the front of the line which I’ve been told is the case. If people are dieing from waiting in line then they should publish that, but they aren’t.

Canada may have mediocre healthcare compared to our Ferrari care but at least everybody gets care and nobody is going bankrupt over it. Here the bulk of the people do not seem to care because their employers are paying two-thirds of their premiums. True, they may be able to opt out but that just means they’d have to pay the same amount elsewhere.


Well I would not go so far as to call it mediocre healthcare, we just do not have the excess capacity that you have built into your system. Like a truck with a lot of pulling power you have more cargo capacity, here sometimes you have to take two trips. But even with that, things such as cancer survival rates and other metrics we are on par with the US. Could we have a Cadillac system? Sure. If all of us taxpayers started to complain the politicians would surely throw more money into the system. But they tell us, it will cost us more in tax. And this is where we the tax payers say, 'You know, maybe we are doing pretty good, leave the taxes alone.' We are not saying we have a perfect system, but it is one that we do not want to give up, we do tinker with it from time to time according to wants and needs. Basically we feel it is a good compromise.

[printer2]

I agree with you on some aspects...but the only reason government is corrupt is because we the people allow them to be.

And that is something we do in Canada. We hold our government accountable and we will not be afraid to turf them out.


In the Canadian federal election, 1993, the governing Progressive Conservative Party was reduced from a strong majority government to only two seats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wipeout_%28elections%29

[dsprice]

The link was just the first one that came up but we know there are numerous articles on both sides. I've also read and seen interviews of Parliament members denouncing social healthcare and saying that the horror stories we here concerning availability and treatment are true. Are they? How often does it happen? Why would high ranking govt officials from Canada and UK warn the US not to use social medicine?

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[Hugh B]

You talk about choice, choice is all dependent upon the amount of wealth and privileged you have.
A child had no choice to be born, it has no choice in its parents, no choice in what environment it lives in.
Many have no choice in what medical aliments they have.
Many have no choice in the ability to earn wealth and privilege.
You are simply showing that you have no respect for others, and that self is the only issue that matters.
If you had any humility about you, then you should be promoting compulsory euthanasia, and yet I have not seen any of you promote this issue. Your comment indicate that those who can not afford health care, should just die a slow and agonizing death, would you do that to your dog or horse.
So stopping sitting on the fence, promote the real issue "survival of the fittest/wealthiest" and stopping hiding behind, the blame game. "as mother nature intended"??????????????

Most of what you posted above is nonsense since most of those items are things that no one has the remotest ability to choose. Therefore they have nothing to do with this discussion.

Taking an innocent life is murder and is therefore a wrong moral choice. I would never promote murder.

In an open and free society with the government securing those freedoms instead of limiting them we all would have the ability to choose to study, learn, start a business, work our way up thru a career and keep the fruits of our labor. Instead the government often puts roadblocks and hurdles in front of those who wish to succeed on their own.

We are guaranteed nothing in life. It is not the role of government to enforce equality of outcome, it should be the government's role to ensure equality of opportunity.

[printer2]

The link was just the first one that came up but we know there are numerous articles on both sides. I've also read and seen interviews of Parliament members denouncing social healthcare and saying that the horror stories we here concerning availability and treatment are true. Are they? How often does it happen? Why would high ranking govt officials from Canada and UK warn the US not to use social medicine?

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As with you guys we have people who are ideologically driven on both sides. For some it is all or nothing, some play the game for political purpose, it is easy to throw stones, especially if you are not the ones in power and you do not have to pay the bills.

Another thing that I have said here in the past, our country went through a financial crisis in the mid 90's where the government cut spending to cut our debt in half. No body was spared with health care spending taking a big hit laying off nurses, cutting doctors salaries, all the support staff also. We have been playing catch-up since then and have done a lot to make up for the tough choices the politicians made to get the country out of debt.

Just in the hospital complex that I work at we have had non stop construction and upgrades since before I started working there. Currently we have four buildings under construction with a total cost of half a billion dollars going up.

There will always be horror stories, we had a guy die in the emergency waiting room a couple of years ago and it is still being investigated. Stuff happens. Wait time are part of the system. Not everyone needs to have a procedure done the next day but the ones that do need it sooner get it done right away. The funny thing that they found out about providing more services to reduce the wait times, the more you work at reducing them by adding the number of procedures (such as a MRI), the more doctors proscribe them.

In case you are interested, some wait times for my province.

http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/waittime/index.html

The times are an average, some get shorter waits and some longer. Another thing that I found doctors do is put a patient on a couple of lists, there are different lists for each hospital and you can choose which one you want to go to, so there is shopping around to get the health professional you want doing the procedure. Some people wait longer on one list so they specifically get a certain physician. others put their name on more than one list in order to get faster service in case there is a cancellation somewhere and they can get in early.

We were backed up with MRI's at my hospital and we poured a pad and supplied electrical for a mobile MRI that you have running around your country that we rented for a few months.

Do politicians try to make hay when there is a problem? Sure do. But that is a good thing because then the ones in charge have to do something to get the heat off themselves. It is our way of accountability. It is better than hiding problems.

[Hugh B]

A few things to keep in mind when considering government providing something for you instead of providing the same for yourself.

You don't have a right to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

Greed is not someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it is people demanding a greater share of what someone else earns.

When government provides something it always takes by force that which is necessary to provide it from someone else in order to provide it.

It is generally the liberal who are greedy when they promote government assistance as they are taking something away from somebody the fruit of their labor in order to provide it. Yet those same liberals rarely make personal donations to charity from their own pockets.

[barbar]

Most of what you posted above is nonsense since most of those items are things that no one has the remotest ability to choose. Therefore they have nothing to do with this discussion.

Taking an innocent life is murder and is therefore a wrong moral choice. I would never promote murder.

In an open and free society with the government securing those freedoms instead of limiting them we all would have the ability to choose to study, learn, start a business, work our way up thru a career and keep the fruits of our labor. Instead the government often puts roadblocks and hurdles in front of those who wish to succeed on their own.

We are guaranteed nothing in life. It is not the role of government to enforce equality of outcome, it should be the government's role to ensure equality of opportunity.

It is you have no understanding of choice, I gave example of those who have no choice, therefore as a responsible society those who are able to make a choice, need protect those who can not. A society needs governance by a method of government.

What is the difference between some one dying a slow and pain full death due to lack of healthcare, and and or putting them to death whilst in the above situation. If you call one murder, then call the other murder. Standing by with your hand on your wallet, is no excuse.

You also clear do not understand any economic model, there has to be a separation between the have and have not's. If all had the opportunity, to produce fruit and did, then the fruit would be worthless, in a time where economic expansionism has stopped.

How can any government offer or ensure in equality of opportunity.
Your base argument on universal health flies in the opposite direction, to your equal opportunity statement, for a new born to have an equal opportunity when he/she grows up then, healthcare must be provided equally to all.
It is the governments role to act as the agent for the people! What the government does, is by the decree of the people who voted the government in.
As long as you have the freedom to be elected and the freedom to vote, then what happens is the responsibility of the people. The problem with living in any form of representative democracy, there will be some out comes that will not fall your way.

If you do not like your choices, start up a new party, and see who votes for you. I look foreword to seeing you on the steps of the whitehouse.

[printer2]

A few things to keep in mind when considering government providing something for you instead of providing the same for yourself.

You don't have a right to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.

You seem to understand the concept of insurance, basically sharing the risk between people. Those that share the risk have a right to that service. If you pay your premiums that your insurance company set then you would expect that service.


Greed is not someone wanting to keep more of what he earns; it is people demanding a greater share of what someone else earns.

And not contributing to the cost of the service that you may use is greed. From what I understand, if you get in a car accident and end up at a hospital they have to treat you and hopefully get the cost back. If you have no insurance or wealth that they can take, basically you are one of these greedy people, you do not want to pay in the system but if you really need it it will be there for you.


When government provides something it always takes by force that which is necessary to provide it from someone else in order to provide it.

No, the government is set up by the people to govern for the people. If you do not like the services provided by the government you can complain to your representative and in a democracy you can change the system to any thing you want. Otherwise being a part of a democracy you agree to abide by the laws and obligations that go along with being a citizen. Don't like it, change the system or move.


It is generally the liberal who are greedy when they promote government assistance as they are taking something away from somebody the fruit of their labor in order to provide it. Yet those same liberals rarely make personal donations to charity from their own pockets.

Suck it up baby. Democracy in action.

[Brian GC]

So you spend 12k out of pocket for two people annually? Far cry less than 200k...the exact same amount as my, "gravy train" and I'm sure your copay and rx is also the exact same as mine.

So where do you get flamed remarks from? It appears you are the one that that regurgitates what you hear in the media instead of using actual stats for a basis to your arguments.

Honestly, its ok to have an opinion and I'm willing to hear yours. Just don't believe that I can take your trolling seriously when you obviously are not informed. Actually, I think calling you uninformed gives you more credit than you deserve...

Argue with me with facts....not bs...

My policy is nothing like yours. I pay less than three thousand dollars a year but my deductible is $8,500. That means my insurance pays nothing until my out-of-pocket exceeds $8,500 annually. So if I was to have a $50,000 hospital bill it would cost me $8,500, which is the same as a person who pays $11,500 in premiums and has zero deducible. And unlike you, I don’t have an employer that picks up two thirds of that tab/risk.

If you cannot understand how paying $1,000 a month to an insurance policy for thirty years is the same cost as buying a house for $200,000, I can’t help you with that. Its basic math with the exception that the insurance policy will increase 10% annually and the mortgage payment will not. Also with a house you will own it outright after thirty years. So buying a house is a much better deal.

IMO your hatred of liberals skews your perception of the issue.

[Six]

You cant justify socialism with math. Where do people who are well and live in socialist countries go for life saving medical procedures ?

They come to America.

[Brian GC]

You don't have a right to anything that other people have to pay to provide for you.


If everyone pays into the system how is one person taking something from another?

[Brian GC]

You cant justify socialism with math. Where do people who are well and live in socialist countries go for life saving medical procedures ?

They come to America.

Then Canadian healthcare cannot save a life? They ALL come here for that?

Our problem is that we glorify our doctors and worship the money they make while going broke trying to support them and their corrupt system.

[AStudent]

You cant justify socialism with math. Where do people who are well and live in socialist countries go for life saving medical procedures ?

They come to America.

Yeah..some of them do come to America but many of them have the services that they acquire here paid for by their insurance system.

Is anyone counting the number of people that leave the US to go to Canada for their healthcare?

What percentage of those people stay in Canada and never move back to America?

Of course what many Americans fail to realize is that healthcare in Canada is very different from province to province, so you can't really judge their entire system by how many Canadians do this or do that without breaking it down into more detail.

There are bad things that happen medically in both countries, like the number of bankruptcies in America due to healthcare, or the number of people in Canada that may have to wait a little longer.

If you are faced with a longer wait would you be more reluctant to go to the ER for every little problem? This is another major issue in America...we think that every time we get a cough or stub a toe that it's off to the doctor.

[netsalt]

Americans go to The Philippines, Mexico and Malaysia to get dental/medical procedures they can't afford here. There is even a phrase for it "medical tourism". Great system, outsource everything and the market will decide. Liberty!

[AC5096]

Americans go to The Philippines, Mexico and Malaysia to get dental/medical procedures they can't afford here. There is even a phrase for it "medical tourism". Great system, outsource everything and the market will decide. Liberty!

You can go to Matamoros and get a filling for $20.00.Well worth the cost of a passport.

Seen something on TV about US citizens going to India for surgeries. Couldn't imagine going to India to have anything done. That's plain scary.

[printer2]

You cant justify socialism with math. Where do people who are well and live in socialist countries go for life saving medical procedures ?

They come to America.

One of our carpenters had chest pains two nights ago at 10:00pm (he is in his early 40's), by 11:30 he decided to go to emergency. He ended up having a heart attack and today I saw him sitting up in bed talking to someone (I did not inquire more, I was there checking out some isolation rooms and did not stick around). Doubt he would have made it if he booked a trip ti the U.S.



Yes we are such a backwater country here we do not have the ability to care for our sick. God forbid we try to do medical research on our own.

[printer2]

You can go to Matamoros and get a filling for $20.00.Well worth the cost of a passport.

Seen something on TV about US citizens going to India for surgeries. Couldn't imagine going to India to have anything done. That's plain scary.

I hear you can get a liver cheap.

[Tech Rob]

I know quite a few Canadians, and I can't say that I have heard any of them complaining about their healthcare, or even the quality of life in general in Canada. Americans are so brainwashed and stupid that they'll continue to vilify universal healthcare based solely on whatever propaganda they are being spoon-fed by the domestic healthcare profit machine and their puppets in government.

[Brian GC]

I know quite a few Canadians, and I can't say that I have heard any of them complaining about their healthcare, or even the quality of life in general in Canada. Americans are so brainwashed and stupid that they'll continue to vilify universal healthcare based solely on whatever propaganda they are being spoon-fed by the domestic healthcare profit machine and their puppets in government.

We deserve to be screwed over by unchecked capitalism because we choose to believe slick talking sleazebags in suits over the entire Canadian population.

[chaard]

Let me ask you guys something. Would you like to buy my cigarettes?

Then why would you want to share in the cost of my healthcare as a result of my smoking?

[Brian GC]

Let me ask you guys something. Would you like to buy my cigarettes?

Then why would you want to share in the cost of my healthcare as a result of my smoking?

Smokers already pay more for their healthcare unless you happen to get 75% free, gravytrain healthcare that’s provided by an employer. They get pre-existing conditions for extra charge while we get to pay even more for them.

Not sure what you meant though. The nature of insurance is to share the exorbitant costs over large amounts of people.

[Tech Rob]

Let me ask you guys something. Would you like to buy my cigarettes?

Then why would you want to share in the cost of my healthcare as a result of my smoking?

You take the good with the bad. Life is killing every one of us. Drinking soda and eating potato chips are not healthy activities, and statistically, neither is driving or working in the HVAC business. I don't agree with your decision to smoke, but I also don't think you should be financially ruined if you fell ill. I think that US citizens should demand more security from their government, instead of allowing themselves to be taken advantage of. We're already paying for our neighbors' poor dietary choices and lifestyles. You can either have a system that has provisions for everyone, or a system in which good people may occasionally fall through the cracks. Either way, there is no question that health insurance companies are indefensible, unnecessary, and are a direct cause of healthcare price gouging. The healthcare profession does not have to change as far as doctors, nurses, hospitals, first responders, and other caregivers go, because we do have some of the best in the world... What has to go is the greedy middleman who is betting against you.

[chaard]

You take the good with the bad. Life is killing every one of us. Drinking soda and eating potato chips are not healthy activities, and statistically, neither is driving or working in the HVAC business. I don't agree with your decision to smoke, but I also don't think you should be financially ruined if you fell ill. I think that US citizens should demand more security from their government, instead of allowing themselves to be taken advantage of. We're already paying for our neighbors' poor dietary choices and lifestyles. You can either have a system that has provisions for everyone, or a system in which good people may occasionally fall through the cracks. Either way, there is no question that health insurance companies are indefensible, unnecessary, and are a direct cause of healthcare price gouging. The healthcare profession does not have to change as far as doctors, nurses, hospitals, first responders, and other caregivers go, because we do have some of the best in the world... What has to go is the greedy middleman who is betting against you.

Preach it brother! There's one convert. :grin2:

[Tech Rob]

:cheers:

The first step to fixing things is admitting that what we have now is messed up and that somebody out there has a better way. The problem with insurance companies is that they engage in a risky business. Whether it's health, home, life, or auto... They are rolling the dice. When you and I gamble, and we lose, we lose. When they lose, they don't really lose because they pass that loss on to their customers by raising the rates and denying coverage. The profit is privatized, but the losses are socialized.

[chaard]

Smokers already pay more for their healthcare unless you happen to get 75% free, gravytrain healthcare that’s provided by an employer. They get pre-existing conditions for extra charge while we get to pay even more for them.

Not sure what you meant though. The nature of insurance is to share the exorbitant costs over large amounts of people.

Your assuming that all employers pay for healthcare. There are many that are self employed or work part times jobs that offer no coverage. Also, most employers don't chip in anything to cover spouses or children. I know of a friend that only has healthcare for himself and his wife and 6 kids are in state healthcare. So then the high costs are being paid by you and me and not by those who choose to not particpate. If Obamacare gets their way low to middle income will be forced to pay $2500 for not having coverage. Even if they pay the fine and that's a big IF, they still wont have coverage.
What we need is a system an incentive to want to purchase healthcare. That's why I think my plan is so appealing. $250 a month for an entire family.

[Brian GC]

Your assuming that all employers pay for healthcare. There are many that are self employed or work part times jobs that offer no coverage. Also, most employers don't chip in anything to cover spouses or children. I know of a friend that only has healthcare for himself and his wife and 6 kids are in state healthcare. So then the high costs are being paid by you and me and not by those who choose to not particpate. If Obamacare gets their way low to middle income will be forced to pay $2500 for not having coverage. Even if they pay the fine and that's a big IF, they still wont have coverage.
What we need is a system an incentive to want to purchase healthcare. That's why I think my plan is so appealing. $250 a month for an entire family.

I realize not all employers provide health insurance to its employees. But nearly all large companies, state, city and federal workers do get it for a major discount. Medicare recipients get it for about $100/mo and poor people get Medicaid for free. All these people could care less about people like me who have to pay full price or go bankrupt over healthcare costs. The people that get it for “free” vastly outnumber the people that actually pay full price for it.

May I ask what plan you have that covers an entire family for only $250/mo. Who is your provider and what is your deductible?

[chaard]

I realize not all employers provide health insurance to its employees. But nearly all large companies, state, city and federal workers do get it for a major discount. Medicare recipients get it for about $100/mo and poor people get Medicaid for free. All these people could care less about people like me who have to pay full price or go bankrupt over healthcare costs. The people that get it for “free” vastly outnumber the people that actually pay full price for it.

May I ask what plan you have that covers an entire family for only $250/mo. Who is your provider and what is your deductible?

I'm Union. Don't remember how much if anything I am contributing. I was referring back to my OP about bypassing the insurance companies.
Btw, small businesses employ more than big businesses.

[chaard]

What research exists on the cost and availability of health insurance?

A Kaiser Family Foundation study confirmed the connection between firm size and offering health insurance. The survey shows that about half of businesses with 3–9 workers offer health benefits to their employees. The ratio grows to about three-fourths for firms with 10–24 employees, to almost 90 percent for firms with 25–49 employees, and to 98 percent for firms with 200 employees or more. Almost two-thirds of workers take health insurance coverage when offered. Overall in 2008, small firm employees were almost twice as likely as large firm employees to be uninsured (25.1 percent vs. 13.6 percent, respectively).

Source: Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research and Educational Trust, Employer Health Benefits 2010 Annual Survey; Employee Benefit Research Institute, Sources of Health Insurance and Characteristics of the Uninsured: Analysis of the March 2009 Current Population Survey.

From http://web.sba.gov/faqs/faqIndexAll.cfm?areaid=24

[Brian GC]

I'm Union. Don't remember how much if anything I am contributing. I was referring back to my OP about bypassing the insurance companies.
Btw, small businesses employ more than big businesses.

If you are union you are paying less than half of what it actually costs someone like me...more like one quarter. You also get pre-exsiting conditions covered at no extra cost.

If I only paid $250/mo to cover my entire family I wouldn't see anthing wrong with our current health system.

BTW - I do bypass my health insurance company by paying cash.

[chaard]

If you are union you are paying less than half of what it actually costs someone like me...more like one quarter. You also get pre-exsiting conditions covered at no extra cost.

If I only paid $250/mo to cover my entire family I wouldn't see anthing wrong with our current health system.

BTW - I do bypass my health insurance company by paying cash.

Just because I have good healthcare doesn't mean our system isn't broken. Even though Obamacare won't affect me doesn't mean I don't care. I would like everyone to have healthcare coverage at an affordable price. But not be forced into it by Gov.

[Brian GC]

Just because I have good healthcare doesn't mean our system isn't broken. Even though Obamacare won't affect me doesn't mean I don't care. I would like everyone to have healthcare coverage at an affordable price. But not be forced into it by Gov.

I am glad to hear that you care about healthcare in spite of receiving good rates from your union. But my concern is that very few people seem to care because it does not directly affect them. If all families of four had to write $1,500 to $2,000 check for health insurance each month there would be national outcry and things would change. But that’s not the case.

Isn’t it government’s responsibility to protect us from fraudulent and unfettered capitalism?

[chaard]

I am glad to hear that you care about healthcare in spite of receiving good rates from your union. But my concern is that very few people seem to care because it does not directly affect them. If all families of four had to write $1,500 to $2,000 check for health insurance each month there would be national outcry and things would change. But that’s not the case.

Isn’t it government’s responsibility to protect us from fraudulent and unfettered capitalism?

Well if Obamacare becomes law, then the $2500 penalty will get a lot of low to middle income families crying fowl. People should be encouraged to obtain healthcare, not forced.
I've had to pay over $900/mo. For health insurance so I know what its like to choose your familys health over owning a home. People shouldn't have to choose between the two.
Not to mention health insurance should only be used for extreme emergencies. Not just to cover Rx and office visits. That would bring costs down quite a bit if we didn't send every little Bill to the insurance companies. If hospitals and Dr.'s offered plans like I propose then we could still buy health insurance only for extreme emergencies and that would bring costs down dramatically. Sort if like the way we use car insurance.

[Tech Rob]

I am glad to hear that you care about healthcare in spite of receiving good rates from your union. But my concern is that very few people seem to care because it does not directly affect them. If all families of four had to write $1,500 to $2,000 check for health insurance each month there would be national outcry and things would change. But that’s not the case.

Isn’t it government’s responsibility to protect us from fraudulent and unfettered capitalism?

No, because we must not, at any cost, inconvenience the JOB CREATORS!!! In fact, we must shovel more coal into their gravy train by deregulating all business, without thought to the consequences! It is, after all, the ONLY way to spur economic growth!!!

:rolleyes:

[chaard]

Found this pic.http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r219/chaard/bumpersticker2.jpg

[printer2]

Found this pic.http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r219/chaard/bumpersticker2.jpg

It costs less up here and it is free (by your terms).

[chaard]

I'm not knocking Canada. Your country is in a much better position fiscally. The population is also 1/10 of the USA. Our problem is that Gov can't handle money. It has robbed our Social Security fund, has gotten us into trillions of debt and now looks to the RICH to help pay for their mismanagement. We don't need another Gov subsidized program cause as history has shown our Gov will just F*%# it up.

[printer2]

I'm not knocking Canada. Your country is in a much better position fiscally. The population is also 1/10 of the USA. Our problem is that Gov can't handle money. It has robbed our Social Security fund, has gotten us into trillions of debt and now looks to the RICH to help pay for their mismanagement. We don't need another Gov subsidized program cause as history has shown our Gov will just F*%# it up.

I did not mean to imply it was for you just that it is not necessarily a road to ruin. As far as the population difference, why would that matter. We have 1/10 the population but also 1/10 the cash to spend. The government not being able to handle money is an issue though and this is where I see the 10X population coming in. The reason why is that you have representatives from 50 States that want to get the best deal they can for their constituents and figure they will have the others pay for it. A lot easier to think that way when you have a crowd of 50 in a room than siting down with 10 and you know what you get is taking away from one of the other guys at the table. Not to say we do not get that but probably not as much.
The easy way to get what you want is to give the same to the other guy and all cash in today on the future prosperity, that is assuming there will be prosperity.


Oh, and the better position fiscally is because we were in as rough shape as you are in but decided to do something about it before someone else decide what we should do as is the case with Greece. We are not perfect, just a lot better than most.