Installing HVAC in a restaurant

[yocona]

I am in the process of getting several estimates to have a central heating/cooling system installed in my restaurant to replace gas space heaters and window a/c units. I've been doing lots of reading in an attempt to educate myself, and seem to have bigger questions now than when I started. E.g., Is a heat pump the right choice? or geothermal? What about a ductless system? I'm sure that the contractors giving me estimates will have "answers", but it would be nice to hear advice from objective professionals.

We are located in north Mississippi with hot, humid summers and mild winters. We are in a rural location, with LP gas and no three-phase electricity--although the electric company can make it available, and I would be willing to make the investment if it makes sense in terms of the performance, efficiency and/or logevity of the equipment. The restaurant is in a very old building (pre-1930 construction) that was originally a home, so the dining rooms and kitchen are actually comprised of quite a few separate small rooms. Because of our limited hours, the dining rooms are in use only 25-30 hours/week. The kitchen areas are used three to four times that.

The duct work will probably be very tricky; not only is the building old, but it has limited attic space. Another restriction is one of aesthetics: most of the rooms have walls and ceilings entirely of old yellow heart pine, which I do not want to mess up. Obviously, I would rather not have exposed duct work in the dining rooms, but my concerns are strictly pragmatic in the kitchen areas.

My intent is to spend the necessary money up front to ensure that we get the best system for our situation, in regard to long-term performance as much as efficiency. I am trying to learn what I can so I can ask the right questions. Thanks in advance, and please let me know if I've left out any important details.

[joken]

You probably have heard all this already,but here are a few thoughts. Make sure the kitchen area exhaust system is preforming properly so that conditioned air from the restaurant is not exhausted. I know you mentioned not wanting exposed duct. I have seen some nice looking spiral round systems. One advantage of this arrangement is almost zero duct heat loss/gain. I probably would opt for heat pumps since no natural gas is available. Geothermal in my opinionis too expensive with a long pay back. Good luck and don't go with the lowest bid. Find someone you trust that can give references. Ken in Oregon

[yocona]

Thanks, Ken. I will make sure to have the exhaust systems checked for proper performance. I will also ask about the spiral duct systems that you mentioned. But what about the possibility of a Ductless system? Are there good reasons to stay away from ductless? (assuming there is someone in our area that does this)

Thanks for the advice about the heat pump. I was guessing that would be the better option, especially since I had to rule out geothermal exactly for the reason you mentioned.

No, I am not going to make this decision based on the lowest price. I am always willing to pay what it costs to have things done right, have them last, and have them be as maintenance-free as possible. As much as the cost, I am anxious to see the different "solutions" that the contractors come up with.

I only called contractors for whom I already have great references, mostly from other business owners. One is the local Trane dealer. The second does only Goodman. And the third does Lennox, Am Standard, Gibson and Frigidaire. Contractors aside, do you have any opinion re: these brands?

[joken]

The ductless systems work well in certain applications. I would be reluctant to use them unless you just couldn't make anything else fit. I would use Lennox,Trane,AmStd or a Carrier product. I no longer work in contracting. We have a lot of Trane equipment that I maintain and have had good results. Lennox makes good stuff too. There are folks on this forum that will surely give you some more good ideas. Regards, Ken

[yocona]

Thanks, Ken. Asking about the local Trane contractor always gets the same response: best in town, but the most expensive option. I've been wondering who deals with Carrier because of the positive things I've read, but haven't heard a recommendation for whoever it is.

[psychometric]

Congratulations. No offense, but I never met a restaurant owner who cared about spending money on good heating/cooling equipment, And spend even less to maintain it. I hope you are contageous, my friend!

[no8no3]

Ken is right, The Kitchen exhaust is the most important part of your install. If not done correctly, this will cause a myriad of problems including cooling loss and perhaps gas pilots being snuffed from negative pressure.

You need a contractor that can do a test and balance on the system and will stand by this install with a good warranty. A ductless system will be pricey, and really doesn't add to the asthetics. I'd lean toward exposed spiral duct, or the newer canvas type duct. This is easily installed and can be removed for cleaning.

what if anything have you planned for the refrigeration? Walkins/reachins and so forth.

BTW, I'm in north MS also, Judging by your screen name, i may have fished in your river a time or two...LOL.

[yocona]

Originally posted by psychometric
Congratulations. No offense, but I never met a restaurant owner who cared about spending money on good heating/cooling equipment, And spend even less to maintain it. I hope you are contageous, my friend!
LOL! Fortunately, I don't do things like most restaurant owners. Seriously though, I can't blame most of them. The fact that I own the building (okay, the bank and I own the building) makes the investment much more palatable.

Thanks for emphasizing the importance of the exhaust systems in the equation, no8no3. Canvas duct work sounds fabulous.

My restaurant is outside of Oxford in the community of Yocona, and that is indeed the same river. Believe it or not, it flows all the way to the Mississippi (via Lake Enid). At the end of July we will celebrate eleven years in business, so the refrigeration equipment already exists. And since I had to replace both sandwich units last fall, I hope I'm not thinking about refrigeration anytime soon. Unfortunately, there's barely a single square inch of unused space--our walk-in refrigerator is outside the back door, and our freezers are in a cinder block shed in the back yard.

I met with the Goodman contractor late this afternoon, and he isn't the man for the job. But it was helpful in that I now understand the main challenges. The meeting did leave me with two specific questions. First, would it be too noisy to put an air handler in a dining room? Second, since we will almost certainly have two separate systems, is it okay to have one split system and one package unit? (The attic is probably not a viable option, and this would avoid putting an air handler in a dining room.)

[Edited by yocona on 07-04-2006 at 10:55 AM]

[maxster]

the spiral duct idea is mint for that application especially if you have a hi ceiling and you can black it out both ceiling and duct.go with the rooftops and keep all the HVAC out of the occupied space..ducts only!see if the contractor can keep in mind the future service/maint.of the units,and not just throw in in a run and then service is a nightmare...and $$$ bills to you.ductless is good for that larger room used for parties and family get togethers so you don't condition the empty room during business hours with the main unit...and put a load on that same unit with a full house at both ends.

[yocona]

Thanks, maxster. We do indeed have high ceilings throughout most of the building--which is why the attic probably won't be usable. These spiral ducts are sounding better and better.

[joken]

Ken's at work today. Happy Independance Day. I would also have Filter Grilles installed on your returns if possible. This would give you simple visual and physical access to the air filters and you or your help can change them regularly as well as monitor their condition. This however is not a subistitue for a couple of regularly scheduled preventive maintenance visits by your service person. Good group here. Ken

[maxster]

saw them installed over the years and they blend right into the spaces,TGIFs,Outbacks etc,you can have it hug the ceiling then drop down to 8" level for true space cooling...Crate and Barrel in Grennwich Village has round duct installed total design input for low profile from their engineers on job....looks awesome.keep it simple on the controls(minimal whistles and bells)just want people to relax in a comfortable place.good luck 20' CB...ceilings here,see why the take offs should be dropped down just above the shelfshttp://img323.imageshack.us/img323/2708/mvc004s6xo.jpg

[Edited by maxster on 07-04-2006 at 11:55 AM]

[maxster]

you can have the supply truck transistion into the space round then to round drops paint it close to the ceiling colors(doesn't have to be dark)and it will disappearhttp://img506.imageshack.us/img506/9258/mvc015s9uc.jpg

[maxster]

you won't have this type of lighting load but customer loads can get up there on hot dayhttp://img381.imageshack.us/img381/9003/mvc010s8xt.jpgthose floods you see are the first LOAD that starts to eat up the cooling coming out of that duct 20'up(50F-55F) at 300 BTUs of heat per flood,and total 30 floods just in this area....thats 9000 BTUs(3/4 tons gone)

[Edited by maxster on 07-04-2006 at 12:10 PM]

[yocona]

Thanks for the pictures, maxster. Sorry to be dense, but are they an example of spiral ducts or canvas ducts?


Originally posted by maxster . . . at 300 BTUs of heat per flood,and total 30 floods just in this area....thats 9000 BTUs(3/4 tons gone)

[Edited by maxster on 07-04-2006 at 12:10 PM] [/B]
Yikes. Is that 9000 BTUs = 3/4 ton equation used for all instances? Or does a properly functioning exhaust system off-set some? I'm panicking because our kitchen equipment pulls a total of 700,000 BTUh.

[maxster]

spiral on the duct work,and the kitchen needs a good setup on air changes and be isolated 100% from the customer serving areas.to cool the makeup air into the kitchen is another item to look at...but you certainly don't want to pull on the customers area during exhausting.i notice when they cook either it be a seniors home or eatery place if the burners are on they have to be exhausting and changing the air.on the lights which you will have minimal load off,the average 200 wattt flood puts out 500 BTUs of heat in the hi-end retail market 50% of the customers cooling goes to lighting load.if you were going for a retail space on Main St there,you could forget that HP unit and just go straight COOLING...the floods would heat the space in the fall and some of the winter,depending how tight the space was in holding that lighting load.200 bulbs at 500 BTUs each thats 8+ tons of heat and your electric bill would prove that out.where your located the people load during the holidays/company parties/groups will help you in heating the place then add that kitchen and a HP would run less depending on the temps outside in the winter!might be doing some fresh air from the rooftop to cool it down or keep the place fresh

[yocona]

http://www.yocona.com/InteriorPix/FrontRoom.htm

Here is a web page with photos of our main dining room. The first picture shows the entrance to the restaurant. As you can see, our lighting is pretty minimal. I've changed the ceiling fixtures since taking those pictures; there are now only two hanging light fixtures, each burning 3-40w incandescent bulbs. They hang alternately with three ceiling fans. There are about half a dozen little lamps around the periphery of the room, each burning a 40w incadescent bulb.

I don't think there is any way to isolate the kitchen from the dining rooms. Take a look at the fourth picture and you get a good idea of the building. It was taken from the center of the front room, looking directly back into the staff/kitchen area. That doorway where the employee is standing--that is one of two doorways into the kitchen, and the one that the servers generally walk through to pick up food. The second kitchen doorway is about three feet to the right of that doorway. About two feet to the employee's left is the doorway of the dishroom. The room he is standing in is the servers' room, with ice machine, beverage station, register/credit card set up, etc. Only two rooms actually have a door, and those are the bathrooms!

Oh, I just thought of something. Could we achieve isolation with those units that blow high volume air down from above the doorway? Or even those clear vinyl strips like I have hanging inside the doorway of the walk-in frig? The air would be the best choice logistically, as those strips are a PITA, and actual doors would be a worker's comp nightmare.

[yocona]

Originally posted by joken
Ken's at work today. Happy Independance Day. I would also have Filter Grilles installed on your returns if possible. This would give you simple visual and physical access to the air filters and you or your help can change them regularly as well as monitor their condition. This however is not a subistitue for a couple of regularly scheduled preventive maintenance visits by your service person. Good group here. Ken
Ken, sorry to hear that you have to work today. Thanks for that tip--I will certainly make sure to ask for that. Some of our refrigeration equipment is so poorly designed it makes me want to scream. It's bad enough that you have to get to the back of the unit to clean the filter, then they add insult to injury by having a panel that has to be removed, too. (That would be the True Manufacturing Co.)

You mention "a couple of regularly scheduled" maintenance visits. Is that annually? If so, that seems quite reasonable.

[joken]

Annually. I like the different chairs. I thought that was my wifes idea.

[maxster]

COOL LOOKIN'PLACE......if anything the cooled space might pull some of the heat out of the kitchen(not like those floods i totaled),unless the place is packed with the sun banging those windows they will get some cooling thru that door when they exhuast to cook(the unit would just run longer)to make the dinning room temp.there might be nights you would only run "fan only" on the rooftop,so the kitchen can just exhuast away.

[plick27]

As far as isolating the kitchen you could always undersize the make-up air in relation to the exhaust (keeping the kitchen in a slight negative) then, if possible, use a package unit with economizer to make up the difference. Don't forget that you must size the package unit for the additional make-up air load. Once the system is installed balance-balance-balance.

BTW: neat lookin place ya got there. Best of luck!

[yocona]

Thanks for the compliments, all. I consider myself very lucky. It was a catfish house for about ten years before I talked them into leasing it to me (for $500/month, with a first option on the property, and furnishings included!). For decades before that it was a country store, which explains the miles of shelves in the front room. The owners lived in the other rooms. Our kitchen is actually a porch that was enclosed when the gas pumps gave way to catfish and hushpuppies. Another major factor: we are located in a county with no fire marshall, no building inspector, etc. Otherwise the old place would have been padlocked long before I came along. Anyway, hopefully my luck in the building will hold out with this project.

The sun is not a big issue because we are only open for dinner, the building faces north, and the front porch eliminates any direct sunlight. People are another issue, but one thing that we have going for us is that our peak occupancy is in fall and spring. September can still be hot as hell, but most of football season falls during mild weather. BTW, winter is just as bad as summer in the building, even in the kitchen. Thank goodness winter is a lot shorter.

I assume that any good contractor will understand the theory behind what maxster and plick27 are talking about. We're a step ahead of you on the undersized make-up air, LOL. The original exhaust system has no return air. It is in our Pantry kitchen, which has less than 20% of the total BTUh. Given our almost non-existent climate control, I never felt like it was worth the investment. And truthfully, I'd be scared to put any more equipment on top of that "porch" roof.

I can't thank you all enough for all this input. Even if I never fully understand it, you're at least informing me to the point that I will be able to figure out which contractors don't understand either. (Like the Goodman contractor, LOL)

[maxster]

ceiling fans could be your first cooling there also,and so you know i don't do installations i was 100% coming into your business as a service tech,and looking at the ceiling,kitchen,windows and people loads...but the final direction on all the advise is where to put this equipment that will determine if it happens.keep us informed on the progress in that spare 5 minutes you'll have!

[plick27]

Originally posted by maxster
,and so you know i don't do installations i was 100% coming into your business as a service tech,

which IMO is how a project like this should be looked at. we primarily deal in smaller out of the ordinary projects like this. everyone in our office has come from a service back- ground and with stuff like this it really pays off. its very hard to find a good engineer who is willing to think out of the box. (o.k. here come the flame throwers) but if you do find one(and we have) that is willing to work with a sharp service tech or field guy on such a project you should hit a home run. sounds like maxster needs to make a road trip. what's round trip from newark costing these days? i'm over in jerz, i'll meet ya there.

[dryguy]

While looking at options, you may want to consider a Heat Pump Water Heater for your water heating needs. These units produce cool air on one side of the system which can be used to reduce the kitchen cooling load, and the hot side of the system makes the hot water for the dishes and cooking-- a two-fer-one deal.

The company I work for manufactures these units and more can be learned at http://www.aers.com if you are interested.

Good luck.

[yocona]

Originally posted by plick27

Originally posted by maxster
,and so you know i don't do installations i was 100% coming into your business as a service tech,

which IMO is how a project like this should be looked at. we primarily deal in smaller out of the ordinary projects like this. everyone in our office has come from a service back- ground and with stuff like this it really pays off. its very hard to find a good engineer who is willing to think out of the box. (o.k. here come the flame throwers) but if you do find one(and we have) that is willing to work with a sharp service tech or field guy on such a project you should hit a home run.
So, am I understanding "service tech" correctly: You guys have been looking at this from the perspective of someone who maintains/repairs the equipment once installed. That is definitely how I prefer to analyze problems, from the pragmatic end of things. This small town may be an advantage in that regard--I'd probably have a harder time finding an inside-the-box type of engineer around here.



sounds like maxster needs to make a road trip. what's round trip from newark costing these days? i'm over in jerz, i'll meet ya there.
I am not sure about current plane fares, but I can promise you would be well fed.

[yocona]

Originally posted by dryguy
While looking at options, you may want to consider a Heat Pump Water Heater for your water heating needs. These units produce cool air on one side of the system which can be used to reduce the kitchen cooling load, and the hot side of the system makes the hot water for the dishes and cooking-- a two-fer-one deal.

The company I work for manufactures these units and more can be learned at http://www.aers.com if you are interested.

Good luck.


Thanks, dryguy. That is a great idea. Our 70-gallon residential model from Lowe's has had a hard life, and probably deserves replacement. This would be exactly the time to do that, especially since I can roll it into the equipment loan that will pay for the HVAC system. Looking at the pictures on your site, though, we may not have the necessary space.

[hmankin]

Hi,

I am opening up a bar in Brooklyn and my last step before opening is the HVAC. There is currently nothing installed; not even an old windows unit or forced air system. I have 700 square feet and the space is 35x20.

Can I get away with a mini split in this space? Winters can be cold in Brooklyn and I am worried about the efficiency of the heat pump; how are the mini splits with backup electric heat.

Thanks for any help.

Howard