Mormons and Muslims...hmmmmm.....

[RoBoTeq]

OK, these are just random thoughts;

Both the LDS (Latter Day Saints, ie; Mormons) and Islam (Muslims) were designed by a single person allegedly getting the information for these organizations from a devine source.

Both Joseph Smith and Mohamed changed their creations to include polygamy when they were under scrutiny for adultery.
Both faiths alter existing Judeo-Christian histories and theology while using Judeo-Christian theology as their basis.

Both Mormonism and Islam intend to unite the world under their respective organizations.

I'm just saying.....:angel:

[Tool-Slinger]

OK, these are just random thoughts;

Both the LDS (Latter Day Saints, ie; Mormons) and Islam (Muslims) were designed by a single person allegedly getting the information for these organizations from a devine source.

Both Joseph Smith and Mohamed changed their creations to include polygamy when they were under scrutiny for adultery.
Both faiths alter existing Judeo-Christian histories and theology while using Judeo-Christian theology as their basis.

Both Mormonism and Islam intend to unite the world under their respective organizations.

I'm just saying.....:angel:
Let's face it. We are mostly guys here right? They both became powerful men and wanted to exert their sexual prowess beyond the wifey, so... justified by religious dictate.

I doubt the need for another 'wife' had anything to do with "uniting the world" fantasy, more like a fixation on some otherwise available cutie.

[RoBoTeq]

Let's face it. We are mostly guys here right? They both became powerful men and wanted to exert their sexual prowess beyond the wifey, so... justified by religious dictate.

I doubt the need for another 'wife' had anything to do with "uniting the world" fantasy, more like a fixation on some otherwise available cutie.
For the polygamy angle, I agree. That and the god complex making them feel they need to populate the world with more of their own.

I've been reading an action fiction novel that involves Mormons and American Indians that got me looking into Mormonism. The more I read about Mormons, the weirder it gets.

[CraziFuzzy]

It might be hard for you to do, but honestly, if you an step outside the box, just about every religion has every bit as much 'weirdness' in it. At the most basic level, religion is, and really always has been, a way to fill in the blanks of human knowledge. It's why they form, and why they spread so easily (also why they spread slower in more educated societies, where there are more holes to fill). With lots of holes to fill, and an endless supply of ideas to fill them, there is a strong chance that a good percentage of those hole fillers are going to come off a little strange. If you pay attention, you'd notice that the reformation to the bible done by the early catholic church did a lot to weed your bible of the 'weirdness' it had, or at least downplay the significance of such weirdnesses.

[barbar]

On this issue is not simply ensuring that your blood line survives and thrives. So the more wives "they who must be obeyed" the greater the spread of our genes and some what less likely to be wiped out.
I think Jesus was a wise man, he could not here God speak, with many wives "they who must be obeyed" nagging in his ear. With only one they do have to stop and take a breath occasionally!

[RoBoTeq]

It might be hard for you to do, but honestly, if you an step outside the box, just about every religion has every bit as much 'weirdness' in it. At the most basic level, religion is, and really always has been, a way to fill in the blanks of human knowledge. It's why they form, and why they spread so easily (also why they spread slower in more educated societies, where there are more holes to fill). With lots of holes to fill, and an endless supply of ideas to fill them, there is a strong chance that a good percentage of those hole fillers are going to come off a little strange. If you pay attention, you'd notice that the reformation to the bible done by the early catholic church did a lot to weed your bible of the 'weirdness' it had, or at least downplay the significance of such weirdnesses.
Even though I am a man of spiritual faith who considers himself a Christian, I completely agree that religions get really weird. I do not associate myself with any organized religion because of the man created goofiness that is injected into their tenents.

I was just having a little fun with these two faiths, which I consider more political and social organizations then spiritual. It's almost like Mormonism and islam are the "good cop, bad cop" organizations wanting to take over the world. Islam teaches it's ok to be violent and LDS teaches we can all become gods.

[RoBoTeq]

On this issue is not simply ensuring that your blood line survives and thrives. So the more wives "they who must be obeyed" the greater the spread of our genes and some what less likely to be wiped out.
I think Jesus was a wise man, he could not here God speak, with many wives "they who must be obeyed" nagging in his ear. With only one they do have to stop and take a breath occasionally!
Not sure what you are referring to.

[barbar]

Not sure what you are referring to.

Neither do I , just Friday night drinking dripple.:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

[coolwhip]

Just another one of Robo's oral farts.

[RoBoTeq]

Just another one of Robo's oral farts.
I know you are, but what am I?

[Six]

OK, these are just random thoughts;

Both the LDS (Latter Day Saints, ie; Mormons) and Islam (Muslims) were designed by a single person allegedly getting the information for these organizations from a devine source.

Both Joseph Smith and Mohamed changed their creations to include polygamy when they were under scrutiny for adultery.
Both faiths alter existing Judeo-Christian histories and theology while using Judeo-Christian theology as their basis.

Both Mormonism and Islam intend to unite the world under their respective organizations.

I'm just saying.....:angel:

When Mormons start slamming 757s into office buildings and blowing up disco-tecs with vest loaded with C4 then your comparison will have some merit.

[k-fridge]

Just another one of Robo's oral farts.

Better than from the other end. :eek2:

[tunnel_rat]

Yea, I think Muslims are going about the whole "unite the world' thing the wrong way. Maybe it's just me.

[pbharvey]

Abraham, Moses, David, Jacob, Solomon...just a few of the polygamists in the Bible

[hvacker]

OK, these are just random thoughts;

Both faiths alter existing Judeo-Christian histories and theology while using Judeo-Christian theology as their basis.

I'm just saying.....:angel:

One large exception concerning Islam and Christians. Islams says " No man is the Son of God. No man is resurrected.

[RoBoTeq]

When Mormons start slamming 757s into office buildings and blowing up disco-tecs with vest loaded with C4 then your comparison will have some merit.
I did state that the two organizations were like the good cop, bad cop scenario of world domination, did I not?

Some of you folks really take this world domination thing a little too serious....:whistle:

Unlike Judeo-Christian teachings, both the LDS and Islam bribe Mormons and Muslims to work diligently to convert others to their cause with promises of mortal gains. Mormons are led to believe that they can become gods of their very own Universes and Muslims believe they will receive physical pleasures in martydom.

[RoBoTeq]

Better than from the other end. :eek2:
OK, since you opened this can of worms, tell them how you know this...:grin2:

[RoBoTeq]

Abraham, Moses, David, Jacob, Solomon...just a few of the polygamists in the BibleIt's still not something that we are taught that God wants us to do. This is one of the reasons it was important for Abraham to have a son by Sarah and not by another wife.

[RoBoTeq]

One large exception concerning Islam and Christians. Islams says " No man is the Son of God. No man is resurrected.
There are a lot more things different then this. Islam bastardizes the Hebrew Testament from Abraham on, which completely changes the New Testament. Islam testifies that the New Testament is full of lies and blasphemies. Islam is a contradiction of Judeo-Christian teachings that has the audacity to claim Jesus Christ as one of it's deciples.

[sigma]

Abraham, Moses, David, Jacob, Solomon...just a few of the polygamists in the Bible

I have seen “Ten commandments” at least five times and I do not remember that Moses had more then one wife.
:whistle:

[Makinhole]

Every church you go to has 5-1 ratio women to men who practice the religion. Do not the other 4 worthy women deserve the same blessings as the lucky one that is married to a follower. I believe that is where polygamy finds its roots. Not in the idea that a prophet of God wants to screw a different chick. How did God become God? If God is the same yesterday and today, does the path he used to become exalted still exist today as it did yesterday? I happen to be Mormon, and find your view of my faith shallow. I have also taken the time to read the Koran. Although I did not find a desire to practice its teachings I did take the time to investigate it instead of ridiculing something I had no knowledge of. But then again how boring is that? To actually read a book, pray about its truth, and decide for myself if it is the word of God...:.02:

[geerair]

It's still not something that we are taught that God wants us to do.So it is a "Do as I say not as I do" type deal.

All through the bible the beloved of god carry on with multiple wives just like the most lust crazed middle east potentates.


Not a real flattering image of your god.

[bb]

When Mormons start slamming 757s into office buildings and blowing up disco-tecs with vest loaded with C4 then your comparison will have some merit.

<hits Like button

[hvacker]

[QUOTE=RoBoTeq;13246741]I think you need to separate Judeo-Christian as the Judeo part doesn't recognise the Resurection. Basic to being a Christian is the belief in the reserection. Nether Islam or Judeism acept this.


[QUOTE=RoBoTeq;13246741]
Both Joseph Smith and Mohamed changed their creations to include polygamy when they were under scrutiny for adultery.
Both faiths alter existing Judeo-Christian histories and theology while using Judeo-Christian theology as their basis.

Just a question. Has anyone here read the Quran?

[Tommy1010]

When Mormons start slamming 757s into office buildings and blowing up disco-tecs with vest loaded with C4 then your comparison will have some merit.

ditto

[RoBoTeq]

[QUOTE=RoBoTeq;13246741]I think you need to separate Judeo-Christian as the Judeo part doesn't recognise the Resurection. Basic to being a Christian is the belief in the reserection. Nether Islam or Judeism acept this.


[QUOTE=RoBoTeq;13246741]
Both Joseph Smith and Mohamed changed their creations to include polygamy when they were under scrutiny for adultery.
Both faiths alter existing Judeo-Christian histories and theology while using Judeo-Christian theology as their basis.

Just a question. Has anyone here read the Quran?
The LDS does not teach about Jesus's Resurrection in any way similar to what (other) Christians do. Mormons believe thet Jesus was simply the first man to be resurrected to unite the spirit and body. Mormons are taught that every Mormon is to be resurrected in the same manner that Jesus was resurrected, according to the LDS.

I have been reading/studying the qu'ran for several years now. It is actually easier to follow then are many biblical passages in that the qu'ran is devised by a singular person with a singular mindset in which Judeo-Christian scripture is simply changed to suit the author, much like the Book of Mormon, which I also have and study from.

[scrogdog]

Just a question. Has anyone here read the Quran?

Ongoing.

Thankfully, there's an app for that. :)

Bible too, of course.

[hvacker]

Ongoing.

Thankfully, there's an app for that. :)

Bible too, of course.



I think that's good. How does the book impress you? My understanding is there was a book after that was a militant writing.

[RoBoTeq]

I think that's good. How does the book impress you? My understanding is there was a book after that was a militant writing.
The three sets of writings that supposedly influence the qu'ran are the torat, which is the Mosaic Torah, the Zabur which is books of the Hebrew Testament attributed to King David and the Injil which is scripture the supposedly was given to Jesus. Basically, Muhammad just changed the Torah and some other Hebrew Testament scripture to match his story about Ismael and Abraham building the alter to the black stone idol called Allah. Then Muhammad just made up stuff about Jesus being a prophet.

We must ignore and outright disbelieve much of what is written in Judeo-Christian scripture in order to accept what is written in the qu'ran. And keep in mind that Mohamed composed the qu'ran single handedly, six hundred years after the man Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Mohamed lived in an area that had a diversity of pagan tribal religions, Christians and Jews all coming and going and teaching their respective faiths. Both Christianity and Judaism would have been very accessible to Mohamed to study. By combining certain aspects of Judaism, Christianity and the pagan beliefs of the tribe he was raised in, Mohamed concocted the stories that make up Islam.
T Contents

[hide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_holy_books#)]

[Hugh B]

I have read and studied the Koran. The book is a mess. The verses are not arrainged chronologically. The verses are arrainged according to length. Therefore, you can read a verse and the next verse may be older or earlier then the first. You never really know the context or conditions under which some section was written.

Muslim scholars can't agree on the real meaning of many parts of the book. And, they will kill one another over their differences of opinion.

Then their is the concept of "Abrogation". When one verse says something contrary to another verse they simply claim that the newer verse abrogates the earlier verse. Allah changed his mind.

The earlier writings were the least offensive and less violent. The latter sections (revelations) are those that command violence against unbelievers.

Although the Bible records a great deal of violence in the OT, it never commands violence of us today. The Koran commands the followers of Islam in the present to do violence in an effort to expand its religion thru the earth.

[barbar]

"Some light reading"

Does Islam really allow the killing of innocent unbelievers?

This is one misunderstanding that keeps rising up against Islam. Islam does not in anyway allow for the killing of any innocent soul. I have gathered some of the Noble Verses that I am aware of that deal directly with war and peace to shed some light upon my readers.

Noble Verses that order the killing of the enemies:

Let us look at Noble Verses 9:28-29 "O ye believe! Truly the pagans are unclear; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear povery, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, For Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Let us look at Noble Verse 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

As we clearly see in the above Noble Verses, the laws of killing the unbelievers or the pagans were for particular and specific times, and not for all times and all places. Notice the quotes "...after this year..." and "...when the sacred months have passed...".

It is important to know that when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him started preaching Islam, he had to deal with 360 Arab pagan tribes at first, and he and his followers had to go through a lot of battles that were imposed upon them by the pagans who were threatened by the new System and Wonderful Religion of Islam.



Noble Verses that deal with peace:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

"Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. (But) the Penalty on the Day Of Judgement will be doubled To him, and he will dwell Therein in ignominy. (The Noble Quran, 25:68-69)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)"

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)"

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)"

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: 'O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.' (The Noble Quran, 18:86)" In this Noble Verse we see that if the enemy wants to do us harm, then we must punish those who did us harm. Otherwise, we must treat the enemy civilians and the innocents with kindness.

Let us look at Noble Verse 45:14 "Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned."

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:32 "...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..." In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty honors all the innocent souls that He created. Killing any innocent soul is so hated by Allah Almighty that He considers it as a crime against all of Mankind.

Let us look at Noble Verse 25:68 "Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment." In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty considers the innocent soul "sacred". He will punish those who kill the innocent souls (by throwing them in hell).

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:182 "But if anyone fears partiality or wrong-doing on the part of the testator, and makes peace between (The parties concerned), there is no wrong in him: For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:224 "And make not God's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for God is One Who heareth and knoweth all things."

I'd say, this Noble Verse clearly proves my point: Let us look at Noble Verse 8:61 "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)." In this Noble Verse, we clearly see Allah Almighty ordering us, the Muslims, to incline toward peace when the enemy inclines toward peace. This proves that Islam is not a religion for wars, but for peace.

Allah Almighty orders Muslims in the Noble Quran to allow total freedom of choice to people and to never try to force them into Islam; "Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)" The Noble Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error...(2:256)"

Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.

In the above Noble Verses, we clearly see that Allah Almighty orders the Muslims to be forgiving to the enemies and to make peace and peace making their top priority. It is part of the Muslim's morals to be a peaceful person.

Muslims start their greetings with "As'salamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatu Allah Wa Barakatuh", which means in English "May GOD's peace, mercy and blessings be upon you."

This is indeed the beautiful religion of Islam. Please visit Good manners in Islam to see ample Noble Verses that order the Muslims to repel evil with good.

[Makinhole]

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, believe all of Gods
children will be resurrected and reunited body and spirit. Not just Mormons. It is amazing to see the ignorance some people have as they misquote the beliefs of others. People should investigate the beliefs "mormons" have from Mormons instead of from people who mingle misconceptions with their own opinion to formulate a derogatory and often offensive view that is simply untrue. But then again it is hard to cary a conversation with someone whose sole purpose of conversing is an attempt to misidentify your beliefs. :gah:
I prefer to defer to a Chinese proverb. It is better to sit there and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Many more things I would like to share with you, but I am reminded of a passage of scripture regarding casting your pearls before swine...:cheers:

[RoBoTeq]

I have read and studied the Koran. The book is a mess. The verses are not arrainged chronologically. The verses are arrainged according to length. Therefore, you can read a verse and the next verse may be older or earlier then the first. You never really know the context or conditions under which some section was written.

Muslim scholars can't agree on the real meaning of many parts of the book. And, they will kill one another over their differences of opinion.

Then their is the concept of "Abrogation". When one verse says something contrary to another verse they simply claim that the newer verse abrogates the earlier verse. Allah changed his mind.

The earlier writings were the least offensive and less violent. The latter sections (revelations) are those that command violence against unbelievers.

Although the Bible records a great deal of violence in the OT, it never commands violence of us today. The Koran commands the followers of Islam in the present to do violence in an effort to expand its religion thru the earth.
With all due respect, most of all but your last line pertains more so to the Bible. The qu'ran is easier to put into context because it is all of the same set style of commands rather then some parables, some historical stories, some letters, some prophecy and so on that comprises the bible.

Your last line is more accurate. While the historical and social values of the Hebrew Testament do influence the New Testament, the New Testament teaches us more tolerance and less actions due to judgements of others.

[RoBoTeq]

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, believe all of Gods
children will be resurrected and reunited body and spirit. Not just Mormons. It is amazing to see the ignorance some people have as they misquote the beliefs of others. People should investigate the beliefs "mormons" have from Mormons instead of from people who mingle misconceptions with their own opinion to formulate a derogatory and often offensive view that is simply untrue. But then again it is hard to cary a conversation with someone whose sole purpose of conversing is an attempt to misidentify your beliefs. :gah:
I prefer to defer to a Chinese proverb. It is better to sit there and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Many more things I would like to share with you, but I am reminded of a passage of scripture regarding casting your pearls before swine...:cheers:
Can you please show us something to support what you are claiming here?

[RoBoTeq]

"Some light reading"

Does Islam really allow the killing of innocent unbelievers?

This is one misunderstanding that keeps rising up against Islam. Islam does not in anyway allow for the killing of any innocent soul. I have gathered some of the Noble Verses that I am aware of that deal directly with war and peace to shed some light upon my readers.

Noble Verses that order the killing of the enemies:

Let us look at Noble Verses 9:28-29 "O ye believe! Truly the pagans are unclear; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear povery, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, For Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Let us look at Noble Verse 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

As we clearly see in the above Noble Verses, the laws of killing the unbelievers or the pagans were for particular and specific times, and not for all times and all places. Notice the quotes "...after this year..." and "...when the sacred months have passed...".

It is important to know that when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him started preaching Islam, he had to deal with 360 Arab pagan tribes at first, and he and his followers had to go through a lot of battles that were imposed upon them by the pagans who were threatened by the new System and Wonderful Religion of Islam.



Noble Verses that deal with peace:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

"Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. (But) the Penalty on the Day Of Judgement will be doubled To him, and he will dwell Therein in ignominy. (The Noble Quran, 25:68-69)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)"

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)"

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)"

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

"Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: 'O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.' (The Noble Quran, 18:86)" In this Noble Verse we see that if the enemy wants to do us harm, then we must punish those who did us harm. Otherwise, we must treat the enemy civilians and the innocents with kindness.

Let us look at Noble Verse 45:14 "Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned."

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:32 "...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..." In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty honors all the innocent souls that He created. Killing any innocent soul is so hated by Allah Almighty that He considers it as a crime against all of Mankind.

Let us look at Noble Verse 25:68 "Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment." In this Noble Verse we clearly see that Allah Almighty considers the innocent soul "sacred". He will punish those who kill the innocent souls (by throwing them in hell).

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:182 "But if anyone fears partiality or wrong-doing on the part of the testator, and makes peace between (The parties concerned), there is no wrong in him: For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:224 "And make not God's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for God is One Who heareth and knoweth all things."

I'd say, this Noble Verse clearly proves my point: Let us look at Noble Verse 8:61 "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)." In this Noble Verse, we clearly see Allah Almighty ordering us, the Muslims, to incline toward peace when the enemy inclines toward peace. This proves that Islam is not a religion for wars, but for peace.

Allah Almighty orders Muslims in the Noble Quran to allow total freedom of choice to people and to never try to force them into Islam; "Let there be no compulsion (forcing others) in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)" The Noble Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error...(2:256)"

Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light.

In the above Noble Verses, we clearly see that Allah Almighty orders the Muslims to be forgiving to the enemies and to make peace and peace making their top priority. It is part of the Muslim's morals to be a peaceful person.

Muslims start their greetings with "As'salamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatu Allah Wa Barakatuh", which means in English "May GOD's peace, mercy and blessings be upon you."

This is indeed the beautiful religion of Islam. Please visit Good manners in Islam to see ample Noble Verses that order the Muslims to repel evil with good.
It's all in the way the passages are studied in context. Let's face it, millions of Muslems are willing to kill for the sake of their understanding of the qu'ranic verses;


The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Rather then telling those of us who are potential victims of Islamic murdering, how about you take this information that Muslims are not instructed to kill infidels to the millions of Muslims who have already killed for the sake of Islam or who are willing to kill for the sake of Islam.

It does little good to tell us that Islam does not promote killing when every day we read or otherwise hear about more Muslims killing more non-Muslims for reasons as slight as Muslims feeling insulted or disrespected.

Yes, this is photoshopped;
.
http://markhumphrys.com/Bitmaps/british.islamist.photoshop.jpg
.
But is it really any more absurd then this?
.
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001102303/BeheadThosewhoInsultIslam_answer_2_xlarge.jpeg

[barbar]

It's all in the way the passages are studied in context. Let's face it, millions of Muslems are willing to kill for the sake of their understanding of the qu'ranic verses; http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

I am struggling with this comment, millions are willing to kill "period" in defense of something, I see no separation between Muslims and the Christians who promote a Crusade/holy war,(which we see in comments made on this site) or for that matter capitalism/Communism and everything imbetween that causes war,

Rather then telling those of us who are potential victims of Islamic murdering, how about you take this information that Muslims are not instructed to kill infidels to the millions of Muslims who have already killed for the sake of Islam or who are willing to kill for the sake of Islam.

Can you please show me in modern times where the millions of non Muslims have been killed by Muslims, solely for the Sake of Islam

It does little good to tell us that Islam does not promote killing when every day we read or otherwise hear about more Muslims killing more non-Muslims for reasons as slight as Muslims feeling insulted or disrespected.

You see what you want to see, should I or any other judge all Americans by what I see on the news? No I do not, nor would i judge 1.4Billion Muslims based upon the acts as a few

Yes, this is photoshopped;
.
http://markhumphrys.com/Bitmaps/british.islamist.photoshop.jpg
.
But is it really any more absurd then this?
.
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001102303/BeheadThosewhoInsultIslam_answer_2_xlarge.jpeg

If God has been around from dot one in mans existence, why would some of his/hers influence have been given to Pagan tribes, as was given to the Jews and Christians. So Mohammad if he was spoken to by God, would rationalize the religions of the day into a singular book.
Do not most religions have more in common than they do have in difference, Is a good idea, a good idea regardless of where it comes from.
If God is still around and still has interest in mankind, why would he not communicate with the likes of John Smith, or even you and me.
It is clear that there is confusion in Gods word, so if God was to speak to some one and ask that they promote is word in our modern times, would his prophet, not rattle all religious beliefs, if at any point there is a difference between what God has portrayed to the new, verses what we believe to be the past truth.

[scrogdog]

I think that's good. How does the book impress you? My understanding is there was a book after that was a militant writing.

Honestly I'm not that far with it yet. The first part is sort of an introduction and it's quite extensive; it mostly talked about stuff like the beauty of the language and how words are constructed, the part I'm reading now talks mostly about the structure of the document itself and why things are ordered in the way they are.

There are a few interesting concepts in there that I hadn't run into before, such as the idea that the Arabic language itself was created by God else there would be no way for that language to communicate concepts that originated within a perfect mind.

In truth, I'm not even reading the actual work yet! The study guide alone has like 12 parts! :)

[RoBoTeq]

If God has been around from dot one in mans existence, why would some of his/hers influence have been given to Pagan tribes, as was given to the Jews and Christians. So Mohammad if he was spoken to by God, would rationalize the religions of the day into a singular book.
Do not most religions have more in common than they do have in difference, Is a good idea, a good idea regardless of where it comes from.
If God is still around and still has interest in mankind, why would he not communicate with the likes of John Smith, or even you and me.
It is clear that there is confusion in Gods word, so if God was to speak to some one and ask that they promote is word in our modern times, would his prophet, not rattle all religious beliefs, if at any point there is a difference between what God has portrayed to the new, verses what we believe to be the past truth.
God, the Creator of the entire physical Universe, has been around a lot longer then mankind has been on Earth, at the very least. After all, the Creator must be around to Create.

God is not a physical being and therefore has no actual gender in the physical sense. We refer to God as the Father simply for easier association to our limited abilities to understand that which is not able to be measured by physical means.

God has been communicating with mankind from day one of man's creation, which I personally believe was much earlier then God's "making" of Adam and Eve, who became the parents of God's later chosen people, the Hebrews.

God's communication with mankind has not changed. Mankind's understanding of God's communications is what has changed. Pagans were under the misconception that God was a plurality of gods. This would mostly be in order to appease man's need to identify with God in a manner that man understood the physical Universe.

Dinner's ready; to be continued....:angel:

[RoBoTeq]

If God has been around from dot one in mans existence, why would some of his/hers influence have been given to Pagan tribes, as was given to the Jews and Christians. So Mohammad if he was spoken to by God, would rationalize the religions of the day into a singular book.
Do not most religions have more in common than they do have in difference, Is a good idea, a good idea regardless of where it comes from.
If God is still around and still has interest in mankind, why would he not communicate with the likes of John Smith, or even you and me.
It is clear that there is confusion in Gods word, so if God was to speak to some one and ask that they promote is word in our modern times, would his prophet, not rattle all religious beliefs, if at any point there is a difference between what God has portrayed to the new, verses what we believe to be the past truth.
Of course God is still around. I don't think the Universe would work without God's influence. I don't really have a specific thought on this, but it just seems that in order for mankind to function as we do in the Universe, God must be involved with us on a continual basis.

So, why does God not communicate with us? He does. There is just no reason for God to give us any more instructions. Think about it. God's direct communication with the Hebrews through prophets went on for nearly 2 thousand years. God' direct communication with Pagans went on for thousands of years prior to that. There is evidence of God's communications with mankind throughout the world of mankind on planet Earth up until just over two thousand years ago when God became man incarnate in the Christ Jesus.

Once God became the spiritual essence of one of God's own physical creations, God communicated to mankind through Jesus what we needed to understand. Jesus teaches us what we have misunderstood for so long from God's communications before God became man incarnate. Since Jesus, there is nothing more for God to tell us through prophets. All has been told by God directly through Jesus.

Have the Jews had any more prophets since Jesus? Why not? What changed that the Jews just stopped having God communicate through prophets? Jesus is what changed. The man Jesus was God incarnate. God Himself was the spiritual essence of the man Jesus, and so we now have all we need to know direct from God.

That is why any prophets since Jesus Christ are false prophets, not to be believed as messengers of God the Father. We have the instruction manual for life and for preparing ourselves for spiritual life after the death of our mortal bodies. We don't need any more in formation than what we have in the New Testament. Now all we have to do is to reconnect with the times in which the New Testament writings are from so we can better understand the instructions that we have.