Air Cleaners, are they worth it?

[kellyinkc]

Looking for a aircleaner for the house.
Wrestling between a room cleaner or a whole house one.
I like the edenPure room model or the Aprilaire 5000 for the furnance.
What do you all think? Thanks to all!

Kelly

[ascj]

There is no comparasion between a room EAC and a whole house EAC. Go with the whole house EAC, hands down.

[kellyinkc]

Ok. Is the Aprilaire 5000 good?
Thanks

[ascj]

Havent tested the Aprilaire with our IAQ monitors yet. But I have heard good things about them.

[kellyinkc]

So what do you know about? I know there are many.
Wife was tested for allergies and dust, mold spores etc and she is allergic.
I currently run 3M Filtrete 1 inch.

[ascj]

To be honest the best performing EAC we have tested so far is the Lennox Pureair.

http://www.davelennox.com/products/overview.asp?model=PCO

[coolwhip]

I dont care for any of them. I would rather have an air bear media or something similar.

[kellyinkc]

Thanks all. I'll do some more reasearch. I looked at the Trane clean effects but have questions on it since it's new and how much is hype.

[wptski]

I posted this same question in another thread. Are the specs for any whole house air cleaner the specs for the unit or just the filter(HEPA/MERV) used? Of course, your only as good as your duct work too!!

I have a IQAir HealthPro Plus and these are EN1822 Certified, meaning the unit is certified not just the filters. The output is particle free and a particle counter proves it too.

[not a filter expert]

Lifebreath TFP or HEPA both very good whole house filters. Honeywell F500 HEPA very good as well. Both brands tested 'tight' with MetOne particle counter to .03microns, very effective.

I agree with previous post, there is room for error with duct work installation and you will get some minor, very minor leakage from the units cabinet.

[wptski]

Originally posted by not a filter expert
Lifebreath TFP or HEPA both very good whole house filters. Honeywell F500 HEPA very good as well. Both brands tested 'tight' with MetOne particle counter to .03microns, very effective.

I agree with previous post, there is room for error with duct work installation and you will get some minor, very minor leakage from the units cabinet.


Even my twenty year old Honeywell F50A EAC reduces the maximum .3 microns counts but I'm unsure if the new power supply that I installed last summer has anything to do with that.

[kellyinkc]

Seems like the more I research the more I need a true HEPA system. That Lennox looks good too!
What is an average cost to install one?

[Edited by kellyinkc on 06-29-2006 at 09:50 PM]

[wptski]

Originally posted by kellyinkc
Seems like the more I research the more I need a true HEPA system. That Lennox looks good too!
What is an average cost to install one?

[Edited by kellyinkc on 06-29-2006 at 09:50 PM]
Talking cost is a no-no here!

[kellyinkc]

Whoopps! Sorry. I like the fact the Lennox has the UV lite also.

[mayguy]

Originally posted by kellyinkc
Thanks all. I'll do some more reasearch. I looked at the Trane clean effects but have questions on it since it's new and how much is hype.

My parents has one installed last May, and mom has asthma and has been been very happy with it. She said she can breath a lot better.. I have allgery and I noiticed that i can breath quite well for the short time I am there.

I personly have the Honeywell Media on mine, and been happy with it so far. May upgrade to the Clean Effect down the road.

[not a filter expert]

99.98% hype

I just heard a commercial where the 8lb Oreck Vacuum removes 99.99% of dust. It would be cheaper and .01% more efficient to leave an Oreck running in the middle of your living room full time. Numbers can be skewed to anyone's advantage.

I need to take this Comedy Act on the road!

[wptski]

Originally posted by not a filter expert
99.98% hype

I just heard a commercial where the 8lb Oreck Vacuum removes 99.99% of dust. It would be cheaper and .01% more efficient to leave an Oreck running in the middle of your living room full time. Numbers can be skewed to anyone's advantage.

I need to take this Comedy Act on the road!
I have a Miele S658 Blue Moon which is also EN1822 certified. If you put a particle counter in the exhaust air stream, the count doesn't stop dead but counts maybe a particle per second.

[pgrasso]

Originally posted by kellyinkc
Thanks all. I'll do some more reasearch. I looked at the Trane clean effects but have questions on it since it's new and how much is hype.

Trane's website, http://trane.com/Residential/CleanAir/CleanAir.aspx, has a lot of really good information on IAQ. Also, if you're concerned that much of what they're saying is "hype," you may want to check out this page, http://trane.com/Residential/CleanAir/ExpertAnalysis.aspx, which talks about the independent studies on the CleanEffects.

There are a lot of other great websites out there that explain the benefits of a whole-house filtration system. Hope this helps!

-Pete

[not a filter expert]

Independent studies done by Harvard? I wonder if they will put the Trane name on the new building they paid for to be built on campus. You have got to be kidding.

You seem like a credible source...why is Trane holding on by a thread to their CADR Rating? A rating that they pumped up higher than any other because they can feed 2000cfm thru the filter?

This means if you could feed 4000cfm thru the filter...WOW...an even higher CADR Rating.

What's the MERV Rating...period!


Originally posted by pgrasso

Originally posted by kellyinkc
Thanks all. I'll do some more reasearch. I looked at the Trane clean effects but have questions on it since it's new and how much is hype.

Trane's website, http://trane.com/Residential/CleanAir/CleanAir.aspx, has a lot of really good information on IAQ. Also, if you're concerned that much of what they're saying is "hype," you may want to check out this page, http://trane.com/Residential/CleanAir/ExpertAnalysis.aspx, which talks about the independent studies on the CleanEffects.

There are a lot of other great websites out there that explain the benefits of a whole-house filtration system. Hope this helps!

-Pete

[wptski]

Originally posted by not a filter expert
Independent studies done by Harvard? I wonder if they will put the Trane name on the new building they paid for to be built on campus. You have got to be kidding.

You seem like a credible source...why is Trane holding on by a thread to their CADR Rating? A rating that they pumped up higher than any other because they can feed 2000cfm thru the filter?

This means if you could feed 4000cfm thru the filter...WOW...an even higher CADR Rating.

What's the MERV Rating...period!


Originally posted by pgrasso

Originally posted by kellyinkc
Thanks all. I'll do some more reasearch. I looked at the Trane clean effects but have questions on it since it's new and how much is hype.

Trane's website, http://trane.com/Residential/CleanAir/CleanAir.aspx, has a lot of really good information on IAQ. Also, if you're concerned that much of what they're saying is "hype," you may want to check out this page, http://trane.com/Residential/CleanAir/ExpertAnalysis.aspx, which talks about the independent studies on the CleanEffects.

There are a lot of other great websites out there that explain the benefits of a whole-house filtration system. Hope this helps!

-Pete
The Trane claims by its Demo that the Clean Effects is better than a HEPA filter. A HEPA filter is supposed to be above the MERV rating system.

[not a filter expert]

Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?
http://www.precisionaire.com/ffi/AMPDFs/PB2102.pdf

There are (3) MERV Ratings, higher then HEPA - Which is 99.97 @ .3 microns...It would not have been a problem for Trane to place a MERV Rating on their filter, now you know.

[wptski]

Originally posted by not a filter expert
Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?
http://www.precisionaire.com/ffi/AMPDFs/PB2102.pdf

There are (3) MERV Ratings, higher then HEPA - Which is 99.97 @ .3 microns...It would not have been a problem for Trane to place a MERV Rating on their filter, now you know.

Seriously, why do so many people here have a attitude?

I came up with this stuff by Googling and that's what I read but maybe the info was incorrect. Haven't you ever ran across incorrect information on the internet??

Like all claims, if it isn't proved by independent testing, it's just a claim! Has the Trane Effect System been independently tested?

[tonys]

[/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]
The Trane claims by its Demo that the Clean Effects is better than a HEPA filter. A HEPA filter is supposed to be above the MERV rating system. [/B][/QUOTE]

WTF???

...info (or mis-info) like this is what gives the IAQ ring a bad name.

[wptski]

Originally posted by tonys
[/QUOTE]
The Trane claims by its Demo that the Clean Effects is better than a HEPA filter. A HEPA filter is supposed to be above the MERV rating system. [/B][/QUOTE]

WTF???

...info (or mis-info) like this is what gives the IAQ ring a bad name. [/B][/QUOTE]
Old data, wrong dat, etc. it's out there! Bad name??

[wptski]

Originally posted by not a filter expert
Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?
http://www.precisionaire.com/ffi/AMPDFs/PB2102.pdf

There are (3) MERV Ratings, higher then HEPA - Which is 99.97 @ .3 microns...It would not have been a problem for Trane to place a MERV Rating on their filter, now you know.


Scroll down of this page to the two paragraphs about HEPA filters as this "might" be where I read that info at: http://www.pureairsystems.com/university_103.cfm

[not a filter expert]

TONYS - stick to America, Religion & Politics.

WPTSKI - based on your posts, you seem to have constructive comments that are on track...I provide info because I have it...don't read into it too much.

It's not attitude, it's and industry I am compassionate about, and it's my life...I take it very seriously.


Originally posted by wptski

Originally posted by not a filter expert
Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?
http://www.precisionaire.com/ffi/AMPDFs/PB2102.pdf

There are (3) MERV Ratings, higher then HEPA - Which is 99.97 @ .3 microns...It would not have been a problem for Trane to place a MERV Rating on their filter, now you know.

Seriously, why do so many people here have a attitude?

I came up with this stuff by Googling and that's what I read but maybe the info was incorrect. Haven't you ever ran across incorrect information on the internet??

Like all claims, if it isn't proved by independent testing, it's just a claim! Has the Trane Effect System been independently tested?

[Edited by not a filter expert on 07-14-2006 at 07:47 AM]

[wptski]

Originally posted by not a filter expert
TONYS - stick to America, Religion & Politics.

WPTSKI - based on your posts, you seem to have constructive comments that are on track...I provide info because I have it...don't read into it too much.

It's not attitude, it's and industry I am compassionate about, and it's my life...I take it very seriously.


Originally posted by wptski

Originally posted by not a filter expert
Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?
http://www.precisionaire.com/ffi/AMPDFs/PB2102.pdf

There are (3) MERV Ratings, higher then HEPA - Which is 99.97 @ .3 microns...It would not have been a problem for Trane to place a MERV Rating on their filter, now you know.

Seriously, why do so many people here have a attitude?

I came up with this stuff by Googling and that's what I read but maybe the info was incorrect. Haven't you ever ran across incorrect information on the internet??

Like all claims, if it isn't proved by independent testing, it's just a claim! Has the Trane Effect System been independently tested?

[Edited by not a filter expert on 07-14-2006 at 07:47 AM]
Right, it may the attitude of the HVAC industry. This is a great forum for asking "certain" questions and the "rules" are supposed to block the questions that the industry doesn't want to answer.

Some things are rated by the filter specs not by unit it's installed in. I have a IQAir HealthPro Plus that's EN1822 certified. If I put my particle counter in the exhaust air flow while in manual, the counter stops dead right down to .3 microns! I have a Miele vacuum cleaner with the same certification and same test produces maybe one .3 micron particle per second. I'm the independent tester here. I'd like to see a similiar test performed on the Clean Effects.

[not a filter expert]

Great to see you have concern enough to test the equipment yourself.

I too want to see Trane comply with what has come to be the industry standards. Unfortunately, marketing is a powerful tool, often time misused...look no further then The Sharper Image.

[wptski]

Originally posted by not a filter expert
Great to see you have concern enough to test the equipment yourself.

I too want to see Trane comply with what has come to be the industry standards. Unfortunately, marketing is a powerful tool, often time misused...look no further then The Sharper Image.


The IQAir DVD shows running the test with a IQAir particle counter. Well, I could do that too, so I did with the same results.

[AIR PRO]

I have exclusively used, and will continue to sell abatement technologies cap600/cap1200. These are TRUE HEPA whole house filtration systems with MERV ratings of 11 plus. I have never, nor do I expect to ever have a complaint from any of my customers about allergies or dust problems in their home after installing one of these.

[wptski]

Originally posted by Hawk327
I have exclusively used, and will continue to sell abatement technologies cap600/cap1200. These are TRUE HEPA whole house filtration systems with MERV ratings of 11 plus. I have never, nor do I expect to ever have a complaint from any of my customers about allergies or dust problems in their home after installing one of these.
Isn't a MERV rating of 11 plus rather low on scale shown in this link, http://www.precisionaire.com/ffi/AMPDFs/PB2102.pdf to be called TRUE HEPA?

[not a filter expert]

MERV11 does not equal HEPA. There are 1" pleated filters achieving MERV11 and they do not shoot up the static pressure.

Also, if you like the Abatement Technologies system...you'll love this one: http://www.pureairsystems.com/systems.cfm Opitional motor with ECM Variable Speed Technology, same motor used in variable speed air handlers by the best manufacturers.

Looks like Abatement Technologies, a company that started in duct cleaning, jumped on the UV & filter bandwagon based on some of the inaccurate statements made on their website...they should update it.

AT claims MERV scale is 1-16...wrong
AT claims Hospital Filters are MERV8 to 14, in all but critical areas?

With claims like this, it's no wonder homeowners, building owners and engineers have a difficult time finding a trustworthy contractor in HVAC or any other trade.


Originally posted by wptski

Originally posted by Hawk327
I have exclusively used, and will continue to sell abatement technologies cap600/cap1200. These are TRUE HEPA whole house filtration systems with MERV ratings of 11 plus. I have never, nor do I expect to ever have a complaint from any of my customers about allergies or dust problems in their home after installing one of these.
Isn't a MERV rating of 11 plus rather low on scale shown in this link, http://www.precisionaire.com/ffi/AMPDFs/PB2102.pdf to be called TRUE HEPA?

[AIR PRO]

Those pureair systems are freaking air handler size.....and probably air handler price! I have done partical counter tests on a home before and after on a CAP600, they do work....and are much more affordable than the pureair stuff.

[not a filter expert]

16.25" x 16.25" x 34" for the 600, suitable for most residential applications and only 11" bigger then the Abatement. Size difference probably due to the true HEPA filter found in the PureAir...call Don at PureAir w/any questions.

Price...I cannot get into that discussion...but keep in mind, there are cheap air conditioners and there are quality air conditioners. In this case, there are cheap air cleaners and there are quality air cleaners. Let your consumer decide.

[tonys]

stick to your highschool homework, chipper.

[wptski]

Originally posted by tonys
stick to your highschool homework, chipper.
Chipper! Who or what is that?

[AIR PRO]

Abatement technologies CAP600 DOES have TRUE HEPA filtration, and the size is MUCH smaller than you have quoted.

[not a filter expert]

Before you install your next Clean Effects:

Nice article, manufacturers getting into air filtration for the wrong reasons...consumers best interest not considered.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/14152659.htm

Trane tries to sell this as their own revolutionary filtration product, it is not. In fact it is designed by a company that manufacturers commercial air cleaner devices, more specifically for oil and mist. Just because a product is marketed well, and 'independent lab test results' are published; doesn't mean it works.

[genesis]

Filter expert I wouldn't put to much credence in some journalist that writes articles to sale newspapers that has no said expertise in the field he is writing in. Apparently you have some problem with the concept of IAQ.
The problems with the article is the the writer misstated how every unit works in the article. The same goes for the HVAC manufactures that come out with an IAQ line for there brand name. They come up with a decent concept and marketing gets ahold of it and they blow the boundaries of its capabilities in there advertisements.
Nothing is a 100% effective and a HEPA system is to expensive to maintain, and they don't catch all the VOC's and biologics any way.
I have test after test that shows what I do for a living is making a positive improvement on peoples lives. But creating something that works and getting people in the field to use them to our specs are two different things.
I recently went out to a job site for a Federal Training facility. And found the end user shutting down a VAV system for ultimate start up during normal operations instead of bringing the variable drive system of 2- 100,000 CFM air handlers against the engineers design specs. In the mornings the building smelled like an empty cellar until the PCO system caught the new building back up.
You have at least got your post count up by posting that article on 3 or 4 threads though.
Paul
Genesis Air

[hvacstar]

MERV11 does not equal HEPA. There are 1" pleated filters achieving MERV11 and they do not shoot up the static pressure.

Also, if you like the Abatement Technologies system...you'll love this one: http://www.pureairsystems.com/systems.cfm Opitional motor with ECM Variable Speed Technology, same motor used in variable speed air handlers by the best manufacturers.

Looks like Abatement Technologies, a company that started in duct cleaning, jumped on the UV & filter bandwagon based on some of the inaccurate statements made on their website...they should update it.

AT claims MERV scale is 1-16...wrong
AT claims Hospital Filters are MERV8 to 14, in all but critical areas?

With claims like this, it's no wonder homeowners, building owners and engineers have a difficult time finding a trustworthy contractor in HVAC or any other trade.

Obviously, you have their CAP100 SERIES confused with the CAP600 SERIES which are a true hospital grade HEPA. THEIR CAP100 SERIES IS A MERV 11. I have been using Abatement technologies' stuff for over 7 years and will not use anything else. Word of advice: Before you make claims about a company, be sure to get your facts straight.

[HVACXPRT]

Unless you install an Infinity Air Purifier from Carrer.

check out the technology here.
http://www.residential.carrier.com/a...rifierdemo.swf

The Problem with most Electronic Air Cleaners are that they only capture air born allergens. Carrier's new Infinity Air Purifier is the only one the captures and KILLS living organisms. When you pull out the guts of the Trane Side Effects unit, all the living organisms fly right out into your home again, So even if you have a great hepa Vacuum and take it outside, you still are pulling it out right at the furnace where those living organisms get out of that filter and the furnace wil spread them through the house.

However, Carrier's Infinity Air Purifier kills those living viruses and germs and when you change the filter (about once a year) those allergens are dead. Then you start over with a fresh new filter. No cleaning required. No risk of fire.

[genesis]

I have no problem with the Carriers claim that it is a more efficient filtration system. But removing biologics from the air and killing them and removing odors nope not going for that. Magnetizing the air and shocking the particulate to death. Looks cool on there technology video though. Ask them to show you actual testing data not a graph that some marketing guy did on a brochure. I spend to much time reviewing white papers and lab results to get on that band wagon.

Show me yours and I will show you mine.

[HVACXPRT]

Genesis,
Of course you don't buy it, you sell your own filtrations systems. Im not selling because of loyalty but because I have to sell what makes my customers happy. Infinity Air Purifiers are making customers happy.

About tests, I have seen the results. Carrier will show them to you, I'm a simple dealer.

What test do you have that disproves United Technologies' claims?

[genesis]

Im not saying I'm against using the Infinity system. What I am saying is they are over stating there product in there marketing. I know I guy I trust in Canada that has been developing a Ionization filter system for the last several years . But he came to the same conclusion. It wont remove VOCs or micro toxins. That is how he found me at an ASHRAE show in the first place. The Infinity system is a great particulate filter system that can help improve the air quality in a residence and I wouldn't reccomend you not offering to your customers. I have't seen any third party testing on it yet and I havn't got my hands on one yet other than at a trade show. But oppinion changes when solid facts are out. And the reason I started this post was to get a better idea of the results people are seeing with this system since it has for the most part stayed out of the press.

[dcoolair]

I wouldnt waste my money on them but can understand for those with allergies or asthma might benefit.

[madhat]

I have an Electro-Air and I wouldn't give you 2 cents for it, when you clean it, its hard to get dry, then sometimes it doesn't work without a recleaning. Also have had a spider get in it and it starts arching in the middle of the night.The boards got zapped twice, then I figured out it was how the factory neutral and ground were hooked up. It doesn't stop the pollen I have problems with because the pollen is too damp and its structure won't take a charge. Right now I have a pleat in it thats sized to the slot. PS the old ones with the transformers and capacitors in them were much better IMO, If they got something in them that caused them to arc they'd burn thru it, also never saw one that got zapped by the utility.

[mayguy]

It may help you.

Negative Ion Air Freshener (http://www.root-cn.com/Negative-Ion-Air-Freshener.html)


Ok????? What you linked us to is those car 12 volt plug in thing... Are you Spam??

[BeerSlayer]

Low cost...low PD. Tested down to .007 micron in a recirculating system (like most houses).

www.cimatec.com
www.toxbox.ca

[tonys]

oh, yeah.

try again.