The Prophet Obama...false prophet

[RoBoTeq]

Hopefully Obama is really so out of touch with the little people (average Americans) that this silly worshipping of him will come to an end. Obama, in his third flip-flop over homosexual marriages, is now claiming that he condoning homosexual marriages based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

This should get interesting;
“This is something that, you know, we’ve talked about over the years and she, you know, she feels the same way, she feels the same way that I do. And that is that, in the end the values that I care most deeply about and she cares most deeply about is how we treat other people and, you know, I, you know, we are both practicing Christians and obviously this position may be considered to put us at odds with the views of others but, you know, when we think about our faith, the thing at root that we think about is, not only Christ sacrificing himself on our behalf, but it’s also the Golden Rule, you know, treat others the way you would want to be treated. And I think that’s what we try to impart to our kids and that’s what motivates me as president and I figure the most consistent I can be in being true to those precepts, the better I’ll be as a as a dad and a husband and hopefully the better I’ll be as president.” http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/breaking-president-obama-supports-gay-marriage-cites-christ-and-the-golden-rule/politics/2012/05/09/39231

Aside from using the filler term "you know" six times in that short paragraph, something that must really grate on Toastmasters throughout the world, there are just so many other things wrong with this revelation of Obama's.

Yes, I do believe that we should be following Jesus's teaching to love one another as He loves us. I want to support any other man-woman marriage just as I want my marriage to be supported by others. How does this equate to accepting that which is against God? Should I condone murderers because of this version of Obama's golden rule?

This false prophet Obama makes no rational sense. Amen!

[netsalt]

How do you feel about poligamy? This is not a cheap shot at Romney but the one man to one woman thing is relatively new in the scheme of things.

[coolwhip]

There will be even more excrement coming from his mouth before the election, such as employment rates getting better, lower gas prices etc.

Our Prez with a fictitious background wants to torture us for another 4 years.

[Mr Bill]

I think that Obama is an antichrist representing the antichrist spirit that resides in governmental systems. But certainly not the man of lawlessness that one reads about in scripture. Another thing is Christians are for the most part are on guard against Obama. For him to make the statement that he supports gay marriage will be a clue to believers to steer clear of him and pray for his soul.

What we need to be on guard against is the antichrist to deceive even the chosen of God if it were possible. Jesus warns us in Mat.24 that false Christ and prophets will arise and deceive even the elect if it were possible. I don't think I need to warn people about Obama. He just opens his mouth and watchful Christan's will know what he is about. Besides the devil will not be that obvious in his deception.

[chaard]

How do you feel about poligamy? This is not a cheap shot at Romney but the one man to one woman thing is relatively new in the scheme of things.

You mean one man to one man and one woman to one woman. Marriage between one man and one woman is not new.

[chaard]

I think that Obama is an antichrist representing the antichrist spirit that resides in governmental systems. But certainly not the man of lawlessness that one reads about in scripture. Another thing is Christians are for the most part are on guard against Obama. For him to make the statement that he supports gay marriage will be a clue to believers to steer clear of him and pray for his soul.

What we need to be on guard against is the antichrist to deceive even the chosen of God if it were possible. Jesus warns us in Mat.24 that false Christ and prophets will arise and deceive even the elect if it were possible. I don't think I need to warn people about Obama. He just opens his mouth and watchful Christan's will know what he is about. Besides the devil will not be that obvious in his deception.

My feeling on this is the Anti Christ will actually come from within the Church. I don't believe an outsider will be able to infiltrate the Church and everyone will bow at his feet. It's gonna be somebody everyone, Christians and non Christians, will rally around. :.02:

[hvacker]

When I read the words of those that claim to know the will of god, the divisiveness, contradictions, and spiritual Arrogance, I think you have already been deceived.
But hey, go ahead and vote for the one that worships the Golden Calf. Then you'll know what deception is.

[Mr Bill]

When I read the words of those that claim to know the will of god, the divisiveness, contradictions, and spiritual Arrogance, I think you have already been deceived.
But hey, go ahead and vote for the one that worships the Golden Calf. Then you'll know what deception is.


We're all doomed it really don't matter anymore.
Come out of her, my people.

(Rev 18:4-5 NIV) Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; {5} for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes.

[RoBoTeq]

How do you feel about poligamy? This is not a cheap shot at Romney but the one man to one woman thing is relatively new in the scheme of things.
The role of women is dramatically different in most cultures today then they were in biblical times. The Bible has teachings for many cultural aspects of life that are not the same today as they were in the yesteryears. The point being, God's teachings have been applied to the social circumstances, sometimes despite God's desire for how we should live under certain social aspects. It appears that pligamy is one of those social aspects that God did not care for, but also did not deem to be a sin against God's will.

Personally, especially with today's social view of women being equal to men in all respects, I think it is suicidal for a man to want more then one wife. It would be socially more rational for a woman to have more then one husband!...:whistle:

Theologically, I believe that the intent of the Creator of the Universe was for marriage in mankind to be of one woman and one man. That does seem to best fit all aspects of mankind without having to reduce woman to property status.

[RoBoTeq]

I think that Obama is an antichrist representing the antichrist spirit that resides in governmental systems. But certainly not the man of lawlessness that one reads about in scripture. Another thing is Christians are for the most part are on guard against Obama. For him to make the statement that he supports gay marriage will be a clue to believers to steer clear of him and pray for his soul.

What we need to be on guard against is the antichrist to deceive even the chosen of God if it were possible. Jesus warns us in Mat.24 that false Christ and prophets will arise and deceive even the elect if it were possible. I don't think I need to warn people about Obama. He just opens his mouth and watchful Christan's will know what he is about. Besides the devil will not be that obvious in his deception.
I don't think I would elevate Obama to THE Antichrist status, but I do believe he is anti-Christ. Well, maybe not even that. More like, Obama has so little regard for anyone or anything but himself that he is willing to use Christ as a tool to achieve his goals as readily as he is willing to use the execution of Bin Laden or being for, then opposed to, then back to for homosexuals being able to marry. Obama is sort of like the honeybadger; he don't care, he don't give a sh!t!; (CAUTION: LANGUAGE!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg&feature=player_detailpage

[RoBoTeq]

My feeling on this is the Anti Christ will actually come from within the Church. I don't believe an outsider will be able to infiltrate the Church and everyone will bow at his feet. It's gonna be somebody everyone, Christians and non Christians, will rally around. :.02:
I don't consider the anti-Christ to be a specific person, but rather evil incarnate in man. In that regard, I will agree that the anti-Christ is most likely to be more prevalent in religious organizations then outside of them.

[RoBoTeq]

When I read the words of those that claim to know the will of god, the divisiveness, contradictions, and spiritual Arrogance, I think you have already been deceived.
But hey, go ahead and vote for the one that worships the Golden Calf. Then you'll know what deception is.
What are you referring to?

[hvacker]

Originally Posted by hvacker
When I read the words of those that claim to know the will of god, the divisiveness, contradictions, and spiritual Arrogance, I think you have already been deceived.
But hey, go ahead and vote for the one that worships the Golden Calf. Then you'll know what deception is.

What are you referring to?


First I refer to all religions that I feel are responsible for most problems in our world. To know the will of GOD???? They can cling to their Bibles or Quarians and kill all those that question their authority. When you have a psychopath with 100 followers you have 101 psychopaths.
The golden calf is my referral to Mr. Romney and crew.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally Posted by hvacker
When I read the words of those that claim to know the will of god, the divisiveness, contradictions, and spiritual Arrogance, I think you have already been deceived.
But hey, go ahead and vote for the one that worships the Golden Calf. Then you'll know what deception is.

What are you referring to?


First I refer to all religions that I feel are responsible for most problems in our world. To know the will of GOD???? They can cling to their Bibles or Quarians and kill all those that question their authority. When you have a psychopath with 100 followers you have 101 psychopaths.
The golden calf is my referral to Mr. Romney and crew.
I can't disagree with your assessment of religion. I maintain that while I consider myself to be a devout Christian, I detest most religions and cannot abide by all of the doctrines of any of them. Religions are created by man. Because religion is created by man, evil is immediately part of religious organizations.

This should not deter us from our faith in God. If anything, it should bolster our resolve that we are not capable of controlling ourselves without God's will and love.

Evil that is done in the name of God through religions is not an evil from God, but rather an evil from mankind. Evil has many names and is often thought of as a physical entity, as is God in some religions (man's conjuring, not God's will). More likely, we simply cannot truly understand God or evil fully because they are not of a physical nature. Evil appears to be the absence of God, just as cold is merely an absence of heat. The less God we have in our lives, the more evil our lives are bound to be.

From the horrors that have been done by man in the name of God through many religions throughout the history of mankind on Earth, it is apparent that within many religious organizations is a severe lacking of God. The religion becomes the focus of worship, not God. The religious organization itself is the proverbial golden calf. We even changed the church from being those who believe to the real estate in which we go to worship....what? God or the "church"?

My point is to not turn from God because of what man does with religion.

[chaard]

Originally Posted by hvacker
When I read the words of those that claim to know the will of god, the divisiveness, contradictions, and spiritual Arrogance, I think you have already been deceived.
But hey, go ahead and vote for the one that worships the Golden Calf. Then you'll know what deception is.

What are you referring to?


First I refer to all religions that I feel are responsible for most problems in our world. To know the will of GOD???? They can cling to their Bibles or Quarians and kill all those that question their authority. When you have a psychopath with 100 followers you have 101 psychopaths.
The golden calf is my referral to Mr. Romney and crew. All religions. Including Buddhism and Deism?
It's comments like yours that prove ignorance is alive. And I mean mis informed, not stupidity.
Religions don't start wars. People do. There have been many that had nothing to even do with religion. WWI, American Revolution, French Revolution, Korean war, Vietnam War, Iraq war 1 & 2, Bosnian war. Kuwait invasion just to name few off of the top of my head. People start wars for many reasons. The main reason IMHO is absolute power. Not absolute religion.

[RoBoTeq]

All religions. Including Buddhism and Deism?
It's comments like yours that prove ignorance is alive. And I mean mis informed, not stupidity.
Religions don't start wars. People do. There have been many that had nothing to even do with religion. WWI, American Revolution, French Revolution, Korean war, Vietnam War, Iraq war 1 & 2, Bosnian war. Kuwait invasion just to name few off of the top of my head. People start wars for many reasons. The main reason IMHO is absolute power. Not absolute religion.
Since all religions involve mankind, all religions are subject to violent behaviour. Buddhists have acted violently in the past. Besides, have you never wathched Kung-Fu or any Steven Segal movies?

There are even some Amish around my way that get drunk and disorderly from time to time. Nothing like seeing reports of police arresting some Amish guy for being drunk and having his horse drawn buggy weaving down the road (I'm not joking).

Did The Buddha teach violence? No. Does Jesus teach violence? No. Does Mohammed teach violence? Only on special occasions against those who don't matter anyhow.....OK, that one is a given that the core of the organization was violent from the get go.

[chaard]

Since all religions involve mankind, all religions are subject to violent behaviour. Buddhists have acted violently in the past. Besides, have you never wathched Kung-Fu or any Steven Segal movies?

There are even some Amish around my way that get drunk and disorderly from time to time. Nothing like seeing reports of police arresting some Amish guy for being drunk and having his horse drawn buggy weaving down the road (I'm not joking).

Did The Buddha teach violence? No. Does Jesus teach violence? No. Does Mohammed teach violence? Only on special occasions against those who don't matter anyhow.....OK, that one is a given that the core of the organization was violent from the get go.

If one believes man invented God or religion then man preceeded religouis beliefs. And everything that led up to theology is owed to man. Not God. You can't blame a deity that you don't believe in for what mankind does. Your putting the cart before the horse.

[RoBoTeq]

If one believes man invented God or religion then man preceeded religouis beliefs. And everything that led up to theology is owed to man. Not God. You can't blame a deity that you don't believe in for what mankind does. Your putting the cart before the horse.
Where did I ever claim that man invented God? I don't believe that in the least.

Religions are man's interpretations of, or perceived understanding of God, and as such is completely created by man. All religions throughout the history of mankind deal with man's communication with either God or what we refer to as the enemy of God (what I think of as a force that is in the absence of God). The absence of God seems to live within us spiritually, but mostly affected by our physical nature. This would explain the passages stating that Satan is the ruler of the Earth...or, the physical Universe.

As faithful believers in God and especially those of us who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, being God incarnate in man, really need to get rid of the distractions of the physical Universe in our spirituality. Religious icons, including the ornate buildings we call churches, are nothing less then our golden calfs.

Think about it; in what venues did Jesus teach? Hillsides, open fields, homes, public and government venues etc. The church is the body of Christ....the believers, not some real estate. Real estate is what Pagan's had because they were distracted from God with physical "things" that once were dust and one day will return to being dust. Only our spiritual nature is eternal. Everything of the Earth is ruled by Satan and should be avoided for our communications with God.

[chaard]

Where did I ever claim that man invented God? I don't believe that in the least. I said if "one" believes. I was trying to include everyone but not be specific as to who claimed what.

Think about it; in what venues did Jesus teach? Hillsides, open fields, homes, public and government venues etc. The church is the body of Christ....the believers, not some real estate.
Amen!.

[hvacker]

Man inventing God? If God didn't exist Man would in fact invent God.
There are so many theories of God that invention is the only explanation. Religion is purely inventive or they would agree.
So, what's real? When I dig into theoretical science explanations become so complex that I conclude it's all a dream. The more man learns another even more complex riddle appears. Conclusion seems to be there is no end to the mystery.
Most people accept the faith they were born into. It's just the way it is. Any one of you could just as ez be some other faith except for your birth place.

[chaard]

Man inventing God? If God didn't exist Man would in fact invent God.
There are so many theories of God that invention is the only explanation. Religion is purely inventive or they would agree.
So, what's real? When I dig into theoretical science explanations become so complex that I conclude it's all a dream. The more man learns another even more complex riddle appears. Conclusion seems to be there is no end to the mystery.
Most people accept the faith they were born into. It's just the way it is. Any one of you could just as ez be some other faith except for your birth place.

So youre saying nothing created everything?

And oh, you're dreaming. :)

[RoBoTeq]

Man inventing God? If God didn't exist Man would in fact invent God.
There are so many theories of God that invention is the only explanation. Religion is purely inventive or they would agree.
So, what's real? When I dig into theoretical science explanations become so complex that I conclude it's all a dream. The more man learns another even more complex riddle appears. Conclusion seems to be there is no end to the mystery.
Most people accept the faith they were born into. It's just the way it is. Any one of you could just as ez be some other faith except for your birth place.
Just because there are a lot of different theories of the nature of God does not in the least bit mean that God is an invention of man. In fact, the fact that mankind throughout the world all have thoughts of God should be proof enough of God's existance. Even without communications between peoples all over the world, thoughts of God are more similar than they are different.

Just look at how similar native American Indian tribal beliefs of God are to the beliefs of God by ancient Hebrews. These beliefs are so similar that the Mormons believe these peoples are of the same ethnic background. DNA proves that native American Indians are from Asian etnicity, not Middle Eastern, yet the similarities in the beliefs of God between these two peoples persisted with thousands of miles and thousands of years seperating them.

There is no doubt that man has created the image of God, but in no way has man created God.

[hvacker]

So youre saying nothing created everything?

And oh, you're dreaming. :)


That's exactly what I'm saying and not to discount a tiny spec. Science also says this. The Big Bang started with what amounts to nothing.
Of course I'm dreaming. I'm dreaming the whole universe.

[hvacker]

Just because there are a lot of different theories of the nature of God does not in the least bit mean that God is an invention of man. In fact, the fact that mankind throughout the world all have thoughts of God should be proof enough of God's existance. Even without communications between peoples all over the world, thoughts of God are more similar than they are different.

Just look at how similar native American Indian tribal beliefs of God are to the beliefs of God by ancient Hebrews. These beliefs are so similar that the Mormons believe these peoples are of the same ethnic background. DNA proves that native American Indians are from Asian etnicity, not Middle Eastern, yet the similarities in the beliefs of God between these two peoples persisted with thousands of miles and thousands of years seperating them.

There is no doubt that man has created the image of God, but in no way has man created God.



No one can prove or disprove the existence of God. The similarities you mention, all of what you've described is Theism. The idea that God is separate from man.

There is also deism, the idea that God is based on a purely rational consideration w/o regard to religious experience or God created the universe and split. Or Pantheism, God is all reality.
I had my philosophy professor kick a chair across the room because I suggested God's nature was in the chair. I mean at least the chair was aware enough to remain a chair and not just dissipate.
The idea that if God didn't exist man would invent God isn't as far fetched as you might think. If asked what some one believes about God they will invent one on the spot. Usually w/o any direct experience or training. Even the Religious Experience lacks continuity.
Of course one can doubt that Man was created in the image as no one knows what hat image is. If God exists the very existence is incomprehensible. So were left with God is love.
Man demands a beginning and religions provide it.

[RoBoTeq]

No one can prove or disprove the existence of God. The similarities you mention, all of what you've described is Theism. The idea that God is separate from man.

There is also deism, the idea that God is based on a purely rational consideration w/o regard to religious experience or God created the universe and split. Or Pantheism, God is all reality.
I had my philosophy professor kick a chair across the room because I suggested God's nature was in the chair. I mean at least the chair was aware enough to remain a chair and not just dissipate.
The idea that if God didn't exist man would invent God isn't as far fetched as you might think. If asked what some one believes about God they will invent one on the spot. Usually w/o any direct experience or training. Even the Religious Experience lacks continuity.
Of course one can doubt that Man was created in the image as no one knows what hat image is. If God exists the very existence is incomprehensible. So were left with God is love.
Man demands a beginning and religions provide it.
Actually, theism to a degree has empirical evidence to support it. When all peoples of all places on Earth have the same spiritual beliefs despite the fact that they are not in any way in communication with one another, we must take into consideration that their is a reality to their beliefs.

Just as dark is meaningless without light and cold is meaningless without heat, God is our gauge for existing. There is nothing less then total darkness as there is nothing less then total coldness as there is nothing less less then reality. The amount of God in our lives determines the amount of reality, which can go forward infinitely but cannot go back before Creation.

In the physical world, something cannot come from nothing. Even nothingness in the physical world is really something. There had to be something that sparked the Universe to life, and that something is what we refer to as God.

[chaard]

No one can prove or disprove the existence of God.

And no one can prove or disprove dark matter. Yet scientists believe it exists. That's Faith.

[geerair]

And no one can prove or disprove dark matter. Yet scientists believe it exists. That's Faith.Nope. Scientists have evidence that dark matter exsists. That's science.

http://www.ipmu.jp/node/1222

[geerair]

Actually, theism to a degree has empirical evidence to support it. When all peoples of all places on Earth have the same spiritual beliefs despite the fact that they are not in any way in communication with one another, we must take into consideration that their is a reality to their beliefs.Could you be more specific about these alleged common spiritual beliefs?

A good start would be to precisely define "spiritual beliefs."

Next you could present your metrics and methodologies utilized in discovering and quantifying your assertion.

Next you could show (with relevant anthropological studies) the clear commonalities between various belief systems.

Of course you would have to present a credible case of why your assertion is not merely an artefact of an apologistic mindset (which is the most likely explanation).





Just as dark is meaningless without light and cold is meaningless without heat, God is our gauge for existing. There is nothing less then total darkness as there is nothing less then total coldness as there is nothing less less then reality. The amount of God in our lives determines the amount of reality, which can go forward infinitely but cannot go back before Creation.

In the physical world, something cannot come from nothing. Even nothingness in the physical world is really something. There had to be something that sparked the Universe to life, and that something is what we refer to as God.Third rate, weed induced type philosophy.

[chaard]

Nope. Scientists have evidence that dark matter exsists. That's science.

http://www.ipmu.jp/node/1222

They used computer simulations to come that conclusion.
That's not concrete proof.

[geerair]

They used computer simulations to come that conclusion.
That's not concrete proof.In the very first sentence in the very first paragraph.........."used large-scale computer simulations AND RECENT OBSERVATIONAL DATA"


Also it seems you overlooked figure 2.

Notice how the computer simulation and the observational data beautifully match.


Scientists have for years considered gravitational anomalies as evidence for dark matter. Now these anomalies are confirmed by computer and observational methodologies.







You called the acceptance of dark matter "faith."

You couldn't be more wrong, acceptance of dark matter was and is a matter of evidence.

[chaard]

In the very first sentence in the very first paragraph.........."used large-scale computer simulations AND RECENT OBSERVATIONAL DATA"


Also it seems you overlooked figure 2.

Notice how the computer simulation and the observational data beautifully match.


Scientists have for years considered gravitational anomalies as evidence for dark matter. Now these anomalies are confirmed by computer and observational methodologies.





You called the acceptance of dark matter "faith."

You couldn't be more wrong, acceptance of dark matter was and is a matter of evidence.

Observation is looking at something with your eyes. That's the worst form of evidence. People can see the same thing and interpret it differently.

Besides, the theory of dark matter came about 80 yrs ago. So up until now it was a matter of Faith. They had no evidence and no way of proving it, till now, if you believe it.

[geerair]

Observation is looking at something with your eyes. In this case looking through meticulously crafted and precise telescopes with the aid of complex computer programs and finally interpreted by the finest minds in science.

Even then the resulting scientific paper is scrutinized by more fine minds before these observations are published in the leading journal of astrophysics.


From your statement you seem to believe that astrophysicists merely walk outside and look up.




That's the worst form of evidence.That might be the case in legal systems (although eyewitness testimony has sent many, many folks to jail and to the chair) but in science.....a big no.

A significant quanity of the scientific knowledge gained about the universe has been due to observation. Indeed, a massive amount of knowledge in all areas of science is largely the result of observation.



People can see the same thing and interpret it differently.Indeed they can.

To combat this situation science has the peer-review process and beyond that testing to see if the same results can be produced using the same methodologies.

The only problem I observe here is a lack of understanding of scientific principles, methodologies and history.

But then that is not science's problem but yours.





Besides, the theory of dark matter came about 80 yrs ago. So up until now it was a matter of Faith.They had no evidence and no way of proving it, till now, if you believe it.Actually, evidence for dark matter[orbital and mass anomalies) has been known since the early thirties while the passing years have seen the evidence accumulate.

Given this evidence, your insistence that the acceptance of dark matter is or was an article of faith fails miserably.

[chaard]

Actually, evidence for dark matter[orbital and mass anomalies) has been known since the early thirties while the passing years have seen the evidence accumulate.
I said 80yrs. Ago but his theory wasn't investigated till 40-50yrs later. That's hardly accumulating evidence.
Given this evidence, your insistence that the acceptance of dark matter is or was an article of faith fails miserably.
You have theories supporting dark matter, and there are opposing theories.




http://m.phys.org/news/2012-04-dark-theories-mysterious-lack-sun.html

[chaard]

The only problem I observe here is a lack of understanding of scientific principles, methodologies and history.

But then that is not science's problem but yours.

What is it with you and Bacnet and others with your condescending attitudes on this site. None of you are scientists. If you were you wouldn't be wasting your time here in the basement with the rest of us poor Christian HVAC saps.

AND FOR THE RECORD, ALTHOUGH I'VE SAID IT BEFORE, I GUESS I'LL SAY IT AGAIN SINCE NOBODY FREAKIN LISTENS, I AM NOT OPPOSED TO SCIENCE! AND WHY IS IT THAT SCIENTISTS CAN DISAGREE OR QUESTION EACH OTHER BUT THE REST OF US LOWLY PEOPLE CAN'T DO THE SAME. BTW THAT'S A RETORICAL QUESTION.:censored:

[Tool-Slinger]

What is it with you and Bacnet and others with your condescending attitudes on this site. None of you are scientists. If you were you wouldn't be wasting your time here in the basement with the rest of us poor Christian HVAC saps.

AND FOR THE RECORD, ALTHOUGH I'VE SAID IT BEFORE, I GUESS I'LL SAY IT AGAIN SINCE NOBODY FREAKIN LISTENS, I AM NOT OPPOSED TO SCIENCE! AND WHY IS IT THAT SCIENTISTS CAN DISAGREE OR QUESTION EACH OTHER BUT THE REST OF US LOWLY PEOPLE CAN'T DO THE SAME. BTW THAT'S A RETORICAL QUESTION.:censored:
I would rather argue with science than geer. Just sayin' . :D

[chaard]

I would rather argue with science than geer. Just sayin' . :D

I just noticed he is listed as a regular guest since 2000. Not even a pro member. Odd?

[RoBoTeq]

They used computer simulations to come that conclusion.
That's not concrete proof.
It's called a "model", and it is the biggest propoganda tool being used by leftists for many issues. The entire global warming scare is based on models that have been proven to have been deliberately manipulated to show the outcome that the model designers want the models to prove.

Based on leftists abuse of models, a leftist in the HVAC industry wanting to sell a 5 ton system to someone with a 900 square foot house built to today's standards, I guarantee that they could do so...using Manual J!

FYI: Recent observational data is whatever data was recently observed that would make the model tell the story the model builder wants the model to tell.

[RoBoTeq]

You have theories supporting dark matter, and there are opposing theories.




http://m.phys.org/news/2012-04-dark-theories-mysterious-lack-sun.html
You will never....ever, get geer to behave in a rational manner when it comes to a conversation. It is just not in her DNA. All you will ever wind up with is frustration over having tried to converse with someone who refuses to converse honestly.

[RoBoTeq]

What is it with you and Bacnet and others with your condescending attitudes on this site. None of you are scientists. If you were you wouldn't be wasting your time here in the basement with the rest of us poor Christian HVAC saps.

AND FOR THE RECORD, ALTHOUGH I'VE SAID IT BEFORE, I GUESS I'LL SAY IT AGAIN SINCE NOBODY FREAKIN LISTENS, I AM NOT OPPOSED TO SCIENCE! AND WHY IS IT THAT SCIENTISTS CAN DISAGREE OR QUESTION EACH OTHER BUT THE REST OF US LOWLY PEOPLE CAN'T DO THE SAME. BTW THAT'S A RETORICAL QUESTION.:censored:
BACnet is a different story. He is actually a decent guy who just seems to go into some alter ego at times on this site. If I had to guess geer's reason for posting here, it would be that geer is simply practicing rhetorical argumentation methods.

[RoBoTeq]

I would rather argue with science than geer. Just sayin' . :D
Hell, I would rather argue with a female brick wall with PMS then argue with geer.....less frustrating and I'd learn more.....:cheers:

[RoBoTeq]

I just noticed he is listed as a regular guest since 2000. Not even a pro member. Odd?
I figure geer is one of the women from the old Internet Infidels forum. They threw me out because I did not agree with all of their notions of what makes the world go round. I just love it when so called "free thinkers" are so quick to bannish that which does not agree with them.

[Tool-Slinger]

I just noticed he is listed as a regular guest since 2000. Not even a pro member. Odd?
Not really. ARP attracts folks outside the industry. Even guys in the industry may have little use for a forum. Punch the clock and don't want to think about HVAC until time to punch back in. I understand that, I used to park company truck out back so I would not be reminded on weekends. Even if 'weekend' was only Sunday.

Either way, Geer is a professional arguer. The best. I have beaten Geer down in an argument before, but it was like trying to braze leather. I have since basically given up arguing with Geer. There is nothing to be gained.

I figure Geer is either an extreme far left kool-aide drinking shill, or just comes here to play.

[geerair]

You have theories supporting dark matter, and there are opposing theories.




http://m.phys.org/news/2012-04-dark-theories-mysterious-lack-sun.htmlYour statement is not an accurate representation of the article.

The article's content concerns the distribution of dark matter not its exsistence .

In the first paragraph the article states that the amount of dark matter is smaller than expected.

There is no question raised in the article about the exsistence of dark matter and in fact the article treats dark matter as an accepted scientific fact.


I expect you read the headline and let it go at that.











By the way, the science in the article is based on observations.

Can we now assume you have dropped your objections to observations?

[hvacker]

How incredubly lame. From posts #35- #43 you choose to atack Geerair rather than his arguments. That is the refuge of weakness.
Problem is, he knows the subject and you don't. If you did you would not have given over to ad homminems.
There is nothing irrational in Geerair's arguments. You all just lost that's all.

[geerair]

What is it with you and Bacnet and others with your condescending attitudes on this site. None of you are scientists. If you were you wouldn't be wasting your time here in the basement with the rest of us poor Christian HVAC saps.You are correct; neither I nor Bac are scientists.

I don't consider attempts to educate as wasted time.






AND FOR THE RECORD, ALTHOUGH I'VE SAID IT BEFORE, I GUESS I'LL SAY IT AGAIN SINCE NOBODY FREAKIN LISTENS, I AM NOT OPPOSED TO SCIENCE! AND WHY IS IT THAT SCIENTISTS CAN DISAGREE OR QUESTION EACH OTHER BUT THE REST OF US LOWLY PEOPLE CAN'T DO THE SAME. BTW THAT'S A RETORICAL QUESTION.:censored:Disagreeing is what scientists do but they do it with supporting evidence and logic.

For the most part, the lowly people, as you describe them, disagree on the basis of political or religious grounds with evidence taking a backseat if considered at all.

You can argue to your heart's content but be prepared for the slings and arrows if you base your scientific arguments on political or religious expediencies.

[geerair]

I just noticed he is listed as a regular guest since 2000. Not even a pro member. Odd?If you had been around HVAC Talk in the early days perhaps you would not find it odd.

[hvacker]

Actually, theism to a degree has empirical evidence to support it. When all peoples of all places on Earth have the same spiritual beliefs despite the fact that they are not in any way in communication with one another, we must take into consideration that their is a reality to their beliefs.

Not even. That's called "Agreement of Peoples" and has little to do with proof. Wishful thinking of searching for meaning and justice while living an a often unfair and tough planet.
As far a people communicating w/o contact that's not a problem for me to understand. Some reading of Carl Jung's work would probably convince you we always have always communciated. As one mind.


Just as dark is meaningless without light and cold is meaningless without heat, God is our gauge for existing. There is nothing less then total darkness as there is nothing less then total coldness as there is nothing less less then reality. The amount of God in our lives determines the amount of reality, which can go forward infinitely but cannot go back before Creation.

[I]Goofy Theology. Most theology determines God transcends our idea of reality. The concepts of opposites doesn't prove the existence of God. That's where the idea of the devil came from. To understand in the transcendence of God One needs to also transcend the world of opposites Basic Hindu & Buddhist teachings..


In the physical world, something cannot come from nothing. Even nothingness in the physical world is really something. There had to be something that sparked the Universe to life, and that something is what we refer to as God.[/FONT][/B]

True if one's mind is trapped in the physical world. The world of opposites. Your statement seems to suggest God has a physical existance in our world or God exists in nothingness. I'd like to hear that argument.
Reminds me a little of an acid trip I had once.No offence intended.

[geerair]

It's called a "model", and it is the biggest propoganda tool being used by leftists for many issues. The entire global warming scare is based on models that have been proven to have been deliberately manipulated to show the outcome that the model designers want the models to prove.Actually GW is based on scientific observations of historical and modern day climate conditions. The models are a way to explain the data from these observations. That is pure science.

Of course the wailing assertions about manipulated data have yet to find support with credible evidence.





Based on leftists abuse of models, a leftist in the HVAC industry wanting to sell a 5 ton system to someone with a 900 square foot house built to today's standards, I guarantee that they could do so...using Manual J!

FYI: Recent observational data is whatever data was recently observed that would make the model tell the story the model builder wants the model to tell.And one member just can't understand why a condescending tone is sometimes taken.

Read and behold

Not a molecule of science but oceans of partisan political ranting.

[geerair]

You will never....ever, get geer to behave in a rational manner when it comes to a conversation. It is just not in her DNA. All you will ever wind up with is frustration over having tried to converse with someone who refuses to converse honestly.Says the man who believes in talking snakes and quote-mining.

[geerair]

BACnet is a different story. He is actually a decent guy who just seems to go into some alter ego at times on this site. If I had to guess geer's reason for posting here, it would be that geer is simply practicing rhetorical argumentation methods.Practicing hell, I'm a master of all forms of argumentation.

Your confusion results from the fact that you are ill-prepared to counter any of them.

[geerair]

Hell, I would rather argue with a female brick wall with PMS then argue with geer.....less frustrating and I'd learn more.....:cheers:Hard to learn when your political and religious shutter beliefs your mind.

[geerair]

I figure geer is one of the women from the old Internet Infidels forum. They threw me out because I did not agree with all of their notions of what makes the world go round.



I just love it when so called "free thinkers" are so quick to bannish that which does not agree with them.You were banished for rule infractions; the exact same rule infractionss that would have gotten you banished here.

Actually, a bunch of the members wish you were still here.

Your goofy statements and fractured understanding of biblical history were a source of constant hilarity.


Kind of a less intelligent Cliff Clavin of the forum.

[geerair]

Not really. ARP attracts folks outside the industry. Even guys in the industry may have little use for a forum. Punch the clock and don't want to think about HVAC until time to punch back in. I understand that, I used to park company truck out back so I would not be reminded on weekends. Even if 'weekend' was only Sunday. Yeah, sometimes talking shop is tedious.



Either way, Geer is a professional arguer. the best.Would that I could get paid for my brilliant contributions. Perhaps the membership could start a fund.




I figure Geer is either an extreme far left kool-aide drinking shill, or just comes here to play.I'm here to bring light to the ignorant savages that infest these regions.

[RoBoTeq]

How incredubly lame. From posts #35- #43 you choose to atack Geerair rather than his arguments. That is the refuge of weakness.
Problem is, he knows the subject and you don't. If you did you would not have given over to ad homminems.
There is nothing irrational in Geerair's arguments. You all just lost that's all.
Then you argue with her. She is too boorish and dishonest for me to bother with any more.

[RoBoTeq]

If you had been around HVAC Talk in the early days perhaps you would not find it odd.
I was around then, and it was even more odd then then it is now. Since you are implying that the circumstances have changed, send in your application for professional membership.

[RoBoTeq]

[/FONT][/B][/COLOR]

True if one's mind is trapped in the physical world. The world of opposites. Your statement seems to suggest God has a physical existance in our world or God exists in nothingness. I'd like to hear that argument.
Reminds me a little of an acid trip I had once.No offence intended.
Maybe you should have paid a little more attention to your trip. The term "mind expanding" may not be just a cool thing to say....:cheers:

God once did have a physical existance in "our" world. That existance is known to us as the man Jesus of Nazareth. God, incarnate in the man Jesus, spent 33 years within the confines of one of His own Creations. Sort of like Tron would be for the Creator of that video game or the opposite of what happened in Virtuosity.

Normally though, God exists in what we refer to as a spiritual existance. Just because a spiritual existance has none of the physical aspects of the Universe does not mean that spiritual existance is nothingness...just that which we have no way of understanding yet.

[geerair]

I was around then, and it was even more odd then then it is now. Since you are implying that the circumstances have changed, send in your application for professional membership.Implying? No.

That HVAC Talk has changed is a known fact.


Since I no longer particpate in shop talk or offer advice to homeowners on their HVAC questions, applying for pro membership is a moot point.

[RoBoTeq]

Implying? No.

That HVAC Talk has changed is a known fact.


Since I no longer particpate in shop talk or offer advice to homeowners on their HVAC questions, applying for pro membership is a moot point.
Hmmmm, "YOU" are also a moot point.:.02:

[hvacker]

Then you argue with her. She is too boorish and dishonest for me to bother with any more.

If that were true you wouldn't react by quiting. I don't think you are up to it.
Your true talent is simply out posting everyone.

[hvacker]

I was around then, and it was even more odd then then it is now. Since you are implying that the circumstances have changed, send in your application for professional membership.


What's with pro membership? I never applied and one day it just happened. Pro membership changes nothing.

[hvacker]

Maybe you should have paid a little more attention to your trip. The term "mind expanding" may not be just a cool thing to say....:cheers:

God once did have a physical existance in "our" world. That existance is known to us as the man Jesus of Nazareth. God, incarnate in the man Jesus, spent 33 years within the confines of one of His own Creations. Sort of like Tron would be for the Creator of that video game or the opposite of what happened in Virtuosity.

Normally though, God exists in what we refer to as a spiritual existance. Just because a spiritual existance has none of the physical aspects of the Universe does not mean that spiritual existance is nothingness...just that which we have no way of understanding yet.


Most trips I wouldn't take too seriously as it's too ez to just take off on an idea only to realize later a problem with assumption.

Your 2nd statement is simply a religious justification and has more to do with dogma than a metaphysical argument. You simply have no proof.

3rd statement you offer no rational argument. Psychobabble. You're saying this spiritual existance exists but then go on to say we have no way to understand it. If there was no way to understand it how could it exist? Understanding is how we know anything. Expecting someone to accept an idea w/o understanding is something one might tell a child.
I went through a church confirmation once and was told that the Trinity is a mystery. ?? What does that mean? My take on it at the time was they didn't know anything about it.

[chaard]

Actually GW is based on scientific observations of historical and modern day climate conditions. The models are a way to explain the data from these observations. That is pure science.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r219/chaard/428489_306387716112519_157691484315477_61251802_11 59124701_n.jpg

[RoBoTeq]

What's with pro membership? I never applied and one day it just happened. Pro membership changes nothing.
Everyone who was a member of H-Talk prior to the pro-membership designation was grandfathered in to pro-membership unless they were never considered to be HVAC professionals. Members who joined prior to 2006 that are not pro-members have been determined by H-Talk to not be HVAC professionals and will remain non-pros until they submit an application showing that they are HVAC professionals. So, for geer, it must have been determined that she was not an HVAC professional.

[RoBoTeq]

Most trips I wouldn't take too seriously as it's too ez to just take off on an idea only to realize later a problem with assumption.

Your 2nd statement is simply a religious justification and has more to do with dogma than a metaphysical argument. You simply have no proof.

3rd statement you offer no rational argument. Psychobabble. You're saying this spiritual existance exists but then go on to say we have no way to understand it. If there was no way to understand it how could it exist? Understanding is how we know anything. Expecting someone to accept an idea w/o understanding is something one might tell a child.
I went through a church confirmation once and was told that the Trinity is a mystery. ?? What does that mean? My take on it at the time was they didn't know anything about it.
I truly am sorry that you don't understand.

[geerair]

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r219/chaard/428489_306387716112519_157691484315477_61251802_11 59124701_n.jpgNow there is evidence we can all get behind. :grin2:

[scrogdog]

It is also interesting to note that as the number of pirates in the world has decreased, global warming has increased!

I say we all sail to Somalia and take on new lives to save the planet!

[WebCTRL]

It is also interesting to note that as the number of pirates in the world has decreased, global warming has increased!

I say we all sail to Somalia and take on new lives to save the planet!

Can't we do it a little closer to home? Plus, the Gulf and Carribean sure are nice this time of year. I'll furnish the boat, you bring the tactical stuff...

[tunnel_rat]

Obama's no prophet, true or false. Just a dolt trying to get even with a country he despises. Only true profits he cares about is what goes into his back pocket. And Michelle's BIG back pockets.

[hvacker]

Everyone who was a member of H-Talk prior to the pro-membership designation was grandfathered in to pro-membership unless they were never considered to be HVAC professionals. Members who joined prior to 2006 that are not pro-members have been determined by H-Talk to not be HVAC professionals and will remain non-pros until they submit an application showing that they are HVAC professionals. So, for geer, it must have been determined that she was not an HVAC professional.


Geer's posts aren't related to Hvac so who cares if he's a pro. As Geer sometimes posts stuff about metaphysical things should he provide evidence he is a preacher, philosopher or something?

[hvacker]

I truly am sorry that you don't understand.



Once again no argument, no discussion. Just cut and run.

[RoBoTeq]

It is also interesting to note that as the number of pirates in the world has decreased, global warming has increased!

I say we all sail to Somalia and take on new lives to save the planet!
I'll bet you could get a government grant for this study.

[RoBoTeq]

Geer's posts aren't related to Hvac so who cares if he's a pro. As Geer sometimes posts stuff about metaphysical things should he provide evidence he is a preacher, philosopher or something?
And once again, you completely missed the point. Do you and geer have something going on or are you geer's overly protective mom?

[RoBoTeq]

Once again no argument, no discussion. Just cut and run.
There was no argument or discussion to be had. You completely misunderstood the conversation. I corrected you, which is all that was needed.

[hvacker]

There was no argument or discussion to be had. You completely misunderstood the conversation. I corrected you, which is all that was needed.



I guess your problem has more to do with bovine scatology than ability to engage.
You don't have the ability or capacity to correct me.
Maybe try the Food Network. Que' No!?

[RoBoTeq]

I guess your problem has more to do with bovine scatology than ability to engage.
You don't have the ability or capacity to correct me.
Maybe try the Food Network. Que' No!?
I'm sorry, but I don't have a problem. You must have me confused with someone else.

And, I did correct you. Just because you don't learn from a correction, does not make the correction at fault.

[Hugh B]

Obama is not a prophet, but he runs a non profit organization.

[RoBoTeq]

Obama is not a prophet, but he runs a non profit organization.
Obama is portraying himself as a prophet by altering the intentions of the teachings of Jesus Christ to suit his political needs. This is how Obama wants to be seen;
.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4546717371138140&id=2cff36c53b928346733a625892f8e4f9
.
This is how Obama should be seen;
.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4787527590151284&id=bd667d03969928644451093a35dd5c42

[ControlsInMT]

I would rather see him leaving....

[RoBoTeq]

I would rather see him leaving....
Unfortunately, he's going to need to be removed by popular demand. The main thing this country needs in November is for everyone who feels Obama is doing our country harm to make sure they get to the polls and cast their vote to remove him from office.

[TamarHV]

This thread needs to be revived.

[RoBoTeq]

This thread needs to be revived.
Thank you. Anything that gets the message out that Obama must go needs to be a continuing discussion.

I'm sure that Obama has good qualities as a man, a husband and a father, but he is one scary dude when it comes to being in charge of the United States of America!

[TamarHV]

YHWH is in control. Obama is just a stepping stone for the master plan

[RoBoTeq]

YHWH is in control. Obama is just a stepping stone for the master plan
Oh, you must not have got the message; Obama is bypassing God in the same way Obama bypasses Congress.

[TamarHV]

no one can bypass god. God planned everything that will happen, even obama

[RoBoTeq]

no one can bypass god. God planned everything that will happen, even obama
Oh, you must be one of those holdouts who doesn't realize that resistance is futile;
.
.
http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/43500/Obama-Borg--43922.jpg
.
.
And just on the dark side of the Moon;
.
.
http://www.black-and-right.com/wp-content/uploads/obama-borg1.jpg

[TamarHV]

maybe you're getting the wrong idea?
I simply stated GOD is in control. Resistance to GOD is futile of course, and God chastens and reproves those who he loves. Perhaps this is Americas Judgement, look at the direction we have taken in the past 50 years. We can do all we can to stop evil. But who really determines the outcome?

[GoodRiddenz]

All this Fear Propaganda is just reverse psychology propaganda, nothing more nothing less.
the Pres was called the messiah, because the anti christ was the people against him for helping out those they thought would be fun to make fun of, or to save the people they don't like.
Childish , but everyone is entitled to like whoever they like or perceive what they been told or like, even if its incorrect.

[RoBoTeq]

God "IS". Those of us who understand this should be fine in our spiritual eternal lives. For the time being though, we are stuck in this physical universe that God Created, and so I would at least like to make the best of it. Socialism replaces God with government and Obama thinks he is the god of American government; It's right there in the good news;
.
.
http://cdn.ihatethemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/newsweek-obama-god-e1290174968525.png

[GoodRiddenz]

Actually, Socialism is a byproduct of, yep you guessed it, Conservative Corporatism.
First, you inflate it, then you deflate it, then you keep the people pacified , because they are going to turn on the Govt, who is there to protect the people.
I believe the GOP has given Fed Govt a bad rep and bad rap.
For the reason, to get the people to turn on the Fed who is there to protect the People from State Govt abuses of Power upon the people and Individual, so the State can have its way with the People and Profiteer through Privatization, which is actually Corporatization. Which is a Conflict of Interest with no regs in place to prevent any of it from happening. The People are on the bad end of the bargaining table or expense of it all, and that is the problem. Cannot share the Profits or revenue .

[ControlsInMT]

Actually, Socialism is a byproduct of, yep you guessed it, Conservative Corporatism.
First, you inflate it, then you deflate it, then you keep the people pacified , because they are going to turn on the Govt, who is there to protect the people.
I believe the GOP has given Fed Govt a bad rep and bad rap.
For the reason, to get the people to turn on the Fed who is there to protect the People from State Govt abuses of Power upon the people and Individual, so the State can have its way with the People and Profiteer through Privatization, which is actually Corporatization. Which is a Conflict of Interest with no regs in place to prevent any of it from happening. The People are on the bad end of the bargaining table or expense of it all, and that is the problem. Cannot share the Profits or revenue .

Please step away from the Koolaid.....:gah:

Not sure where you come up with your concepts...byproduct? GOP relying on Fed govt...next you are going to tell us that it's up to the GOVT to create jobs...:whistle:

[GoodRiddenz]

Kool Aid the guy was not black who laced Kool Aid with cyanide... he was a conservative type from the bible belt.
he was a tea bigot.
omg , dont drink the tea.. arrrrgh....

if we all move the extreme left and extreme right a little to the center, we can have a more balanced America, without all the kooks threatening to harm other Americans simply because they are not American enough.
before we educate others we need to educate ourselves.
Change comes from within. Change your thinking and Change yourself, Change yourself and Change the world.

[glennac]

Kool Aid the guy was not black who laced Kool Aid with cyanide... he was a conservative type from the bible belt.
he was a tea bigot.
omg , dont drink the tea.. arrrrgh....

if we all move the extreme left and extreme right a little to the center, we can have a more balanced America, without all the kooks threatening to harm other Americans simply because they are not American enough.
before we educate others we need to educate ourselves.
Change comes from within. Change your thinking and Change yourself, Change yourself and Change the world.

Funny nothing true there at all. I thought Jim Jones (born in Indiana) would have been your hero. Thank you very much

"In 1951, Jones became a member of the Communist Party USA (http://hvac-talk.com/wiki/Communist_Party_USA), and began attending meetings and rallies in Indianapolis.[13] (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/#cite_note-violent-13) He became flustered with harassment he received during the McCarthy Hearings (http://hvac-talk.com/wiki/McCarthy_Hearings),[13] (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/#cite_note-violent-13) particularly regarding an event he attended with his mother focusing on Paul Robeson (http://hvac-talk.com/wiki/Paul_Robeson), after which she was harassed by the FBI in front of her co-workers for attending.[14] (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/#cite_note-q134-14) He also became frustrated with ostracism of open communists in the United States, especially during the trial of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg (http://hvac-talk.com/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg).[15] (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/#cite_note-horrock-15) This frustration, among other things, provoked a seminal moment for Jones in which he asked himself "how can I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was, infiltrate the church."[13] (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/#cite_note-violent-13)[14] (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/#cite_note-q134-14)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

[coolwhip]

Is this one of Geers inbred cousins?:whistle::grin2:

[hearthman]

Actually, Socialism is a byproduct of, yep you guessed it, Conservative Corporatism.
First, you inflate it, then you deflate it, then you keep the people pacified , because they are going to turn on the Govt, who is there to protect the people.
I believe the GOP has given Fed Govt a bad rep and bad rap.
For the reason, to get the people to turn on the Fed who is there to protect the People from State Govt abuses of Power upon the people and Individual, so the State can have its way with the People and Profiteer through Privatization, which is actually Corporatization. Which is a Conflict of Interest with no regs in place to prevent any of it from happening. The People are on the bad end of the bargaining table or expense of it all, and that is the problem. Cannot share the Profits or revenue .

Apparently, Karl Marx has been reincarnated.

You do realize that capitalism is what built most of the world in the last 200 yrs esp. the Industrial Revolution? Corporations were born out of capitalism, not the other way around. In one form or another, personal improvement based capitalism has been around for thousands of years. One of the reasons the economy is in the toilet is because the liberals have restrained and punished those who produce what the non-producers use. We have mathematically reached the apogee of the freeloader's market and now we're on the down turn. That means next stop is below grade.

You believe in envy and covet your neighbor's wealth. Therefore, you are against God as are all socialists. Envy and coveteousness are another way of saying one is lazy and doesn't wank to work for what they have. Now, you can have those who are too lazy enough to work but not too lazy to risk jail by stealing from you. Then you have those too lazy to steal so they elect someone to do it for them. We call these surrogates "liberals or Progressives". Instead of the "Replacement Killers" we have the "Replacement Thieves".

You can chatter all you want trying to justify your beliefs but at the end of the day you still espouse theft.

[RoBoTeq]

Kool Aid the guy was not black who laced Kool Aid with cyanide... he was a conservative type from the bible belt.
he was a tea bigot.
omg , dont drink the tea.. arrrrgh....

if we all move the extreme left and extreme right a little to the center, we can have a more balanced America, without all the kooks threatening to harm other Americans simply because they are not American enough.
before we educate others we need to educate ourselves.
Change comes from within. Change your thinking and Change yourself, Change yourself and Change the world.
Jim Jones was a devout Socialist. I actually don't believe he started out to do bad. In fact, I believe he started out with only good intentions. Socialism has a way of perverting those in power because they develop a god complex. Just as Obama is developing a god complex that he can provide for all of us mere mortals, Jim Jones started believing the same thing.

You really don't have a very good grasp on reality, do you?

[RoBoTeq]

Is this one of Geers inbred cousins?:whistle::grin2:
Maybe one of his hemoroids escaped.