New House, Old Heater

[taxgirl]

We are about to buy a new to us, 24 year old house in New Jersey. The furnace and AC unit are original and need replacing. We have negotiated a credit for the new system in our sales offer. We know we need a manual j and have asked the contractors for one.We now have 4 bids from different
companies and they are all different sizes. The house is about 1800 square feet with another 700' of basement. What size do we need?

Nothing has been upgraded since the house was built.

Thank you in advance.

[taxgirl]

We just had a great guy from XXX service company meet us out at the house this weekend. They did the load calc on the house with us using the ipad with a picture of the house and a graph showing sun moving. The load showed the 3 ton 2 stage and a 60,000 btu modulating furnace is best for this house. It only took 5 minutes, why don't all companies do these calculations on the ipad?

[beshvac]

We just had a great guy from RPm service company meet us out at the house this weekend. They did the load calc on the house with us using the ipad with a picture of the house and a graph showing sun moving. The load showed the 3 ton 2 stage and a 60,000 btu modulating furnace is best for this house. It only took 5 minutes, why don't all companies do these calculations on the ipad?

Cause the Ipad only does a "block load". I use a Laptop...does the same thing only room by room or block load. I complained to my rep when they had the "super sales Ipad available" how come you didn't just come up with some software I can use on my laptop? how come I have to pay $$$$$ for your Ipad that doesn't go to the detail I already do? :gah:

[beenthere]

We just had a great guy from RPm service company meet us out at the house this weekend. They did the load calc on the house with us using the ipad with a picture of the house and a graph showing sun moving. The load showed the 3 ton 2 stage and a 60,000 btu modulating furnace is best for this house. It only took 5 minutes, why don't all companies do these calculations on the ipad?

If they didn't measure the windows, doors, insulation values, etc. then they didn't do a real load calc.

[taxgirl]

If they didn't measure the windows, doors, insulation values, etc. then they didn't do a real load calc.

Our story is over, We are going to buy the house, the new 2 stage AC and modulating gas heat. The guy from XXX said he did as accurate a load calc as can be done on an old house. He also said many of the values are simply unknowable, like how leaky our new house is. I still don't understand why everyone does not buy units that change output as conditions change.

I sure like the way his I pad load calculation software showed me how the load is changing all day. This was what sold us.

[beenthere]

A blower door test would have given an accurate infiltration rate.

Also, the carrier Greenspeed does change its capacity as the indoor cooling load changes.

Strange how his load calc came up to the same size as the old 600 sq ft to the ton rule of thumb. What size A/C does the house currently have. 3 ton?

[taxgirl]

His answer to your question;

We went from 40,000 BTU old unit to 35,000BTU new unit at full capacity. On low speed it is about 2/3 rd of that.

Our guy said he does not know anyone who does this "blower door test" on "change outs"

Not really sure what you are getting at? Do you perform this blower door test when replacing a system or do you guesstimate ?

[beenthere]

No I don't. Point/what I was getting at is he told you know way to know. When there is.

There are other ways to get a good idea at infiltration that I do use instead.

[skippedover]

I too do room-by-room load calcs and it takes more than 5-minutes. The entire house needs to be measured, including all exterior items, doors, windows, etc. The type of item needs to be identified, Low-e windows, double or triple glazed, wood, vinyl, clad wood material, etc. The list goes on in great detail. I object tot he iPad version with Wrightsoft in that it is not yet compatible with my desk top version and it doesn't do room-by-room.

We do not do a blower door test on replacement equipment just because of the time it takes, unless we suspect the house is either very tight (as reported by the homeowner) or very loose (as observed while accumulating data for the load analysis). If we're dealing with someone who's been in the house for several years, then we can also use fuel records to determine the heat loss in reference to degree day data and the national average of 4°F/square foot/degree day of loss, as established by the Department of Energy. If the calculation comes out at 3° or 8°, then we can tell if your house is tighter than average or looser than average and get a more meaningful load analysis.

However, your other comment is right on target. Modulating equipment is superior at matching the heat gain/loss under varying load conditions and while in its infancy in the market right now, gaining traction daily and will be more the norm in the future. How about a variable output heat pump to match the variable output gas furnace?

[Mr Bill]

Our guy said he does not know anyone who does this "blower door test" on "change outs"

Well he is what us company's that work in the real world calls normal, now you do have a chosen few, that claims to do everything including cooking you a steak dinner after the install. :grin2:

[ga-hvac-tech]

IMO that '5 minute wonder' on the ipad was not much more than sales hype.

A true and properly done load calc will require lots more than 5 minutes to measure the house (even if only an 'envelope' calc rather than room by room).

The purpose of room by room is to determine if the ductwork is sized properly to distribute the heat and AC needed to each room. Improper ductwork is second only to improper sized equipment for poor energy efficiency. Also improper ductwork is the #1 cause of hot/cold rooms and temp variances.

[taxgirl]

Thank you all for your comments, I feel as though I may be becoming a high-maintenance customer. I hope they still want my business after all my questions. Anyway here is their last reply, I received to these concerns.Also, I feel the 2 speed AC and modulating furnace makes more and more sense the more I learn. To bad these are not mainstream.

Response below.



Thank you for recent email, let me address you concerns.

First, please be assured your new system is sized correctly. We have installed thousands of systems in South Jersey and you can be confident in our expertise. In your case we are removing the homes original 3.5 ton unit and replacing it with a 3 ton 2 stage unit with a variable speed blower and fully modulating furnace. Here in South Jersey an AC unit will operate approximately 1000 hrs out of the 8784 hrs in a year and over 80% of that time your unit will run on 1st stage. This will result in better humidity control, indoor air quality, and superior comfort.

As for your specific questions;

1. No, we do not perform blower door tests unless they are requested as they are time consuming and costly. If you would like us to perform the blower door test on this home, I can ask our home performance team to schedule one for you.
2. Yes, you are correct, our infiltration rate assumptions, duct losses, and other factors we use in our sizing determination our educated guesses based on our years of experience. We guarantee your comfort. Any one who tells you they know these values with out testing should be questioned, they do not.
3. You are correct, we did not do a “room by room” calculation due to the fact we are not changing the homes primary ductwork. We did recommend adding the return duct to the Master Bedroom for additional airflow and comfort.
4. Our I pad sizing tool is revolutionary and only available to top contractors. It is not surprising smaller dealers would be unaware of it or they may not qualified to use it as training is required.

Of course, you can always find other companies who want to second-guess our approach, however we stand on our 36-year reputation for quality and customer satisfaction. I hope that I have addressed any concerns, if I can be of any further service please contact me.

[beenthere]

Sounds like the same software that a guy was offering to give to every Pro member here for free. As long as they weren't located in a certain area. I believe the utilities gave him a grant to develop it.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Down here in GA we really do not have much of a heat load, so the MOD furnaces are kinda a luxury. I have installed a few for folks that wanted them; they are NICE!

I do sell lots of 2 stage 16 SEER AC (mated to VS drive 2 stage 80% furnaces). The BIG advantage to 2 stage AC is milder days. AC needs to run long enough to dry out the air... or one's home feels 'clammy'.

The gentleman is correct: Your new 2 stage AC will run in first stage (something like 2/3 of full rating) most of the time.

What concerns me is: Did the gentleman make the proper TECHNICAL allowances for new windows and/or doors, better insulation, caulking, baseplate sealing, and a host of other things... or did they just 'guess' at things and assign equipment based on that guess.

Two stage equipment comes only in full ton sizes (2,3,4,5), so your choices will be either 3 or 4 ton... unless your new home has been VERY well upgraded (yes, I have seen a home this size with 2 tons of AC).

I think the equipment will probably work out for you; what us PRO's are fussing about is the thoroughly NOT technical way the salesguy reached the conclusion.

Couple of details:
I would encourage you to mount a 'media style' filter, and
I would also encourage you to look into duct cleaning and sealing.
May as well start off with a CLEAN and tight system.

[taxgirl]

Thank you pros so much,You saved me from buying an oversized unit.

Here is the update:

I purchased your HVAC load calculation software and did my own calculations. The cooling is 18,878 and 30284 for heating. You guys are right, companies out there just want to sell you more than you need. I called the company back and told them to price a 1.5 Ton unit and the smaller furnace. The guy said I was crazy! I told him I had done the calculations myself and was confident their company was trying to sell bigger systems to make more money.

He said the 2 speed unit does not come in the 1.5 ton size and 3 ton would be the smallest unit he would sell me. It seems no mater what, they only want to sell me the big unit. So now we will going from a 3.5 ton down to a 1.5 ton.Thank goodness you guys got me to do the calculations!

Does any company make a 1.5 ton in two speed or should I just get the single speed.

thanks so much, for helping me with this, I am much wiser now.

[beshvac]

If your cooling load was over 18000, 1.5 tons isn't going to cut it. You then take the numbers and make sure the desired unit will cover the sensible, latent and total loads for your location. In my location a 1.5 ton won't come anywhere near 18000.

[beenthere]

2 ton is the smallest 2 stage unit made. Going up a 1/2 ton in size to get a 2 stage is ok.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Depending on lots of things (we are not supposed to give out too much tech stuff); just because it says 1.5 ton does not mean you will actually get 18,000 BTU's of cooling.

I agree with BT... going up to the 2 ton 2 stage is fine if you are satisfied with your load calc.

[taxgirl]

With the basement it is about 2600 sq ft so 1.5 tons should do it,

I know I did the calcs correct. The only numbers I guessed at were the leakage and Duct losses. What do you guys use for these values? House is 24 years old and ductwork runs through attic.

Thanks for all your help.

[ga-hvac-tech]

With the basement it is about 2600 sq ft so 1.5 tons should do it,

I know I did the calcs correct. The only numbers I guessed at were the leakage and Duct losses. What do you guys use for these values? House is 24 years old and ductwork runs through attic.

Thanks for all your help.

Just a couple of the MOST IMPORTANT numbers in the whole load calc... :)

Need to call a Pro for this... This is why we are expensive... we have an education and experience... and we do not share it for free.

Look at the AOP locator map and call out one of our Pro's.

Best to you.

[taxgirl]

Hi,I started this process with a pro and you guys said he was wrong. Sounds to me like he was right when he said everyone is just guessing at the numbers. No one really knows for sure what they are.

Please, give me a break.

What a bunch of hoowie this whole load calc business is.

You guys don't know these numbers any more than any one else or do you have a secret method they only show service guys.

I think I have learned enough here. There sure is a lot of smoke in your load calc nonsense

[ga-hvac-tech]

No, there is a lot of interpolation in the numbers... and this takes both an education as well as experience.

Do you know how to read an X-ray at the doctor's office? How about a CAT or an MRE at the hospital?

Load calcs, like other testing methods, require an education to interpret (both data in as well as data out), it is NOT an exact science.

Best of luck to you with this project... it sounds like you may need it.

[taxgirl]

No, there is a lot of interpolation in the numbers... and this takes both an education as well as experience.

Do you know how to read an X-ray at the doctor's office? How about a CAT or an MRE at the hospital?

Load calcs, like other testing methods, require an education to interpret (both data in as well as data out), it is NOT an exact science.

Best of luck to you with this project... it sounds like you may need it.

Sir, with all respect,Interpolation? Bull.

Lets face it, your load calculation is more of a sales trick.How can 4 companies give me four different load calculations? Who is correct? I have now done as much research on this subject as I am sure you have. Clearly the leakage of a house cannot be know without the Blower Door test. You do not know so you guess. No-one on the site ever says how the numbers are arrived at, just some combination of "interpolation and experience", come on.

If there were a definitive way to get at these leakage numbers you guys would have detailed it, truth is there is not, and you cannot.I have now done considerable research on this topic and am confident that anyone claiming to know leakage rates without testing is not telling the truth.

Fact:You guys are all guessing just like me. Your load calc is a guess at best.

When I re-run my house with your program, I can get cooling BTU's anywhere from 18,000 to 40,000 depending on what values I use. How is this of any value.

I think you should stop trying to get people to believe you are doing some sort of calculation when you are simply guessing, It does not help your industries's image. Your image is bad enough.

I can now see why the 2 speed and modulating units are preferred, since you don't know what the load actually is.

I think you would be better served to be honest and truthful than trying to make people think you know something you don't. That is not the way to do business or behave in general.

[crymtide]

If this stuff was fun or easy they would excuse my french have little girls doing it. 24 yr old house with duct in the attic and i would expect dry duct tape on duct joints if there is duct tape at all. I performed a spring cleaning and inspection on a house 20 yrs. old here a month ago and was able to stay relatively cool in the attic by staying close to duct joints which had been taped and were leaking badly. Over 24 years of 125 degree summers in the attic and temps in the teens in the winter time in the attic; ducts settle, move through expansion and contraction and have the occasional squirrel chewing on things. So are these things important in load calculations? Uh, er, well yes they are. Are they easy to interpret from below the ceiling. Not in the real world. Is the field of HVAC an inexact science? Yes it is. 20 years ago nobody worried about any of these issues. As energy costs rose and technology advanced these issues became more and more prominent, and more and more controllable. Is there an easy answer to this complicated mess? Yes, and some Hvac contractors still use it. Sell'em the customer a big unit to cover your a##; there by charging them more money and givin' 'em the Wham, bam, thank you Ma'am and move on to the next one. Unfortunately on this web site we try to be enlightened and provide information to help people avoid spending to much money in the wrong places and keeping problems that need to be addressed from being covered up or ignored. Good luck with your decisions and choices.

[crymtide]

There are bsolutely now tests to confirm all of these possible issues. Maybe you think a contractor should spend hours performing all these tests, and using expensively purchased equipment for free to give you complete sets of undeniable charts, graphs, and numbers; a process that is used on large projects where thousands of dollars are at stake. Or they can use years of experience along with the most important and most economic to the customer tests and computer programs to take steps away from selling you that big fine unit, and helping you to spend your money in the most efficient way.

[crymtide]

Sir, with all respect,Interpolation? Bull.

Lets face it, your load calculation is more of a sales trick.How can 4 companies give me four different load calculations? Who is correct? I have now done as much research on this subject as I am sure you have. Clearly the leakage of a house cannot be know without the Blower Door test. You do not know so you guess. No-one on the site ever says how the numbers are arrived at, just some combination of "interpolation and experience", come on.

If there were a definitive way to get at these leakage numbers you guys would have detailed it, truth is there is not, and you cannot.I have now done considerable research on this topic and am confident that anyone claiming to know leakage rates without testing is not telling the truth.

Fact:You guys are all guessing just like me. Your load calc is a guess at best.

When I re-run my house with your program, I can get cooling BTU's anywhere from 18,000 to 40,000 depending on what values I use. How is this of any value.

I think you should stop trying to get people to believe you are doing some sort of calculation when you are simply guessing, It does not help your industries's image. Your image is bad enough.

I can now see why the 2 speed and modulating units are preferred, since you don't know what the load actually is.

I think you would be better served to be honest and truthful than trying to make people think you know something you don't. That is not the way to do business or behave in general.

Lord yes, we definitely have nothing better to do than sit here during our off time purporting to know voodooistic spells, chants and incantations to lead the general public down the primrose path.

[crymtide]

Please see Replacement System questions thread by tj363 for a different slant

[ga-hvac-tech]

Ya know...

From reading this thread over again... I see lots of folks who have really tried to help the guest who asked some questions... however:

It also seems to me the OP (original poster, the one who started the thread) either has a chip on their shoulder, or is trying to game us Pro's to get something for nothing.

Regardless: I will ask these questions:

Do you go to a dentist and get a FREE exam with advise on how to fix your own teeth?
Do you go to your GP doctor and get FREE advise on what drugs (which you cannot buy without the doc's prescription) to buy?
Do you go to your lawyer and get free advise when you have suffered a loss in a traffic accident and the other party is stiffing you?

As we all know... the answer is no, no, no.

In the heating and AC business, the folks you read on this board who have 'Professional Member' below their name have been qualified by the owners of the forum. Not only are we licensed and insured, we have to meet minimum experience levels, continue to learn, and run our businesses with respect for our customers. And somewhere in there we need to make enough $$$ to pay the business expenses and make a decent living.

If a person WANTS help, the Pro's here will gladly pass it along. If they, for whatever reason, are not respectful of the Pro's and what we know from education and experience... well: best of luck to that person.

[beenthere]

A more then reasonable leakage rate number can be determined by measuring the condensate of the existing A/c when it runs. Along with the start and beginning RH of the home for that A/C cycle. Along with RH rise during he off cycle. Yep, this means doling more then looking at a pretty picture of he sun going across a house on an screen.

In the winter. Boiling a pot/kettle of water can be used the same way.

Just because you or the companies you called so far don't know how to do it, doesn't mean others don't.

[taxgirl]

I am quite frustrated with this process.

Are you suggesting to measure the water that comes out of the unit to determine how leaky the house is? Since AC's are not running
around South NJ yet this and measuring RH does not seam at all practical. Measuring condensate water, looking at humidity differences, boiling water, is this really the way you measure leakage? I can find no references to any of it. Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

Certainly the sun has a significant impact on my house. I have a lot of glass on the back of my house facing due south and we certainly notice this around 2-3 pm on sunny afternoons. You seem to discount what makes perfect sense to me.

I called our agent and the seller has agreed to a blower door test and "duct test".

I will post the results and their answers to your methods of leakage determination.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I notice the OP refuses to answer the questions about whether a doctor or atty or dentist gives away free advise...

MeThinks us Pro's are being gamed.

[motoguy128]

No, there are better ways, but it requires fairly expensive equipment and you'll have to pay soemone for that service. But it would be more accurate and tell you where the leaks are.

Personally, for load calculations I like to use heating bills and average temprature data as a good ballpark indicator of heat gain and loss.

All methods have some error. All scientific methods have error. That's part of any type of measurement. The ability ot quantify the error is what makes it a science vs. a artform.

[beenthere]

I am quite frustrated with this process.

Are you suggesting to measure the water that comes out of the unit to determine how leaky the house is? Since AC's are not running
around South NJ yet this and measuring RH does not seam at all practical. Measuring condensate water, looking at humidity differences, boiling water, is this really the way you measure leakage? I can find no references to any of it. Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

Certainly the sun has a significant impact on my house. I have a lot of glass on the back of my house facing due south and we certainly notice this around 2-3 pm on sunny afternoons. You seem to discount what makes perfect sense to me.

I called our agent and the seller has agreed to a blower door test and "duct test".

I will post the results and their answers to your methods of leakage determination.

Never said the orientation of the house, or the amount of glass doesn't matter or mean anything. I said looking at a pretty graphic of the sun going across a house doesn't mean anything.

Do I know what I'm talking about? Hmmm. Wait till you find out a blower door test is only a guess. A fairly accurate guess, but still has some guess work to it.

My measuring of how fast RH increases or decreases tells me how much infiltration the home has at that moment. At those current outdoor conditions.

[taxgirl]

Guys,

Here is the summary of an extensive report. I'll rerun the loads using these results.



Dear Ms,
Your Home Performance report is attached. To summarize our conversation, regarding your test results:
1. Your CFM50 is 2665 CFM. This number translates to roughly .7 Air Change per Hour at natural outside pressure. By Insulating and Air sealing your Attic we can reduce this rate to .35 to .4 ACH saving you approximately $493/yr.
2. Your distribution system currently looses about 24% of your heating and cooling BTU’s before they reach the conditioned space. By sealing and insulating the distribution system these losses can be reduced to 5-7% saving approximately $211/yr.
3. Sealing, Insulating, and reducing system losses reduces your Design Heat Loss from 42,326 BTU/HR to 26,823 BTU/Hr and your Design Cooling load from 34,991 BTU/Hr to 25,552 BTU/hr.
4. Our design software is far more sophisticated than the simple heat loss models used by your service tech friends in their chat room. It compares both before and after retrofit “Design loads” with “Operating loads” calibrated to actual customer usage. See below for the test protocol the software complies with.

“The equations, calculations, and modeling capabilities used in Plug have been verified by the Department of Energy, through the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, using the Building Energy Simulation Tests (BESTEST) building energy analysis protocol in accordance with ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 140-2001 Standard Method of Test for the Evaluation of Building Energy Analysis Computer Programs. Actual energy usage and savings may vary depending on building occupancy, behavior, unique house characteristics, etc. “

5. Your tech friends are correct that there is some +- tolerances in the test numbers above, however these tolerances are far less than the guesses they make Doing their load calculations. As for some of the methods you mentioned like condensate measurements, RH differences, and boiling water, I have no experience with any of these methods, nor has anyone I know, and we suspect they may be pulling your leg. Load calculations are only as good as the data you enter into the computer. Without testing no-one can honestly claim to be doing an accurate load calculations as identical houses vary widely.


Please call me if you have any questions regarding your home’s performance report.

[rglasgow]

Hey taxgirl, I think you missed the whole point of this thread (or maybe I did). You asked why all contractors did not use this nifty IPAD app for calculating cooling loads. They where just telling you that it is a sales tool (it convinced you) with many shortcomings. Just look at your detailed report from the blower tests. The home has a cooling load of about 34,000 BUT if you improve the homes envelope you now need ONLY 25,000 btuhs. These reductions equal money in savings.

Good luck

[rglasgow]

4. Our design software is far more sophisticated than the simple heat loss models used by your service tech friends in their chat room.

For your info, some of these service techs on this forum have an amazing amount of knowledge when it comes to the HVAC industry. I have been around for 25 years and still learn things from these guys and their chat room.

[ga-hvac-tech]

This thread is amusing... I see this repeatedly in the marketplace. The ones who want to listen, get a good job and low energy bills. The ones who think they know it all-and act like it... usually end up spending too much $$$ and do not achieve the energy savings they could.

It is all a matter of being willing to listen... not something everyone is capable of.

[taxgirl]

Hey taxgirl, I think you missed the whole point of this thread (or maybe I did). You asked why all contractors did not use this nifty IPAD app for calculating cooling loads. They where just telling you that it is a sales tool (it convinced you) with many shortcomings. Just look at your detailed report from the blower tests. The home has a cooling load of about 34,000 BUT if you improve the homes envelope you now need ONLY 25,000 btuhs. These reductions equal money in savings.

Good luck

Sir,

This was the I-pad app they were using!

As they stated, it would seam their software is much more advanced than the software you are familiar with.

I am now considering doing all the recommended work and really bringing this house up to a new standard. Why don't all you guys recommend the Air Sealing and Duct system upgrades when replacing old units? The returns are better!

[ga-hvac-tech]

Tell you what:

When you are finished with all that magic software recommended... please post how much $$$ you spent. Then a year from now, please post how much you saved on your energy bills.

Might learn something there (something us Pro's know)... the HARD way.

[beenthere]

I recommend sealing on almost every sales call.

Don't believe their software is better then RightJ. Which does a room by room heat loss and gain calc.

Can you post the room by room results they gave you. Along with the air flow in CFM their program said each room needs.

[taxgirl]

Sir,
I am somewhat disappointed you chose use this forum to give me phony advice on leakage calculation methods and amuse your friends at my expense. It has now been demonstrated conclusively there is no way to know the load values on a home without testing and your “calculations” are done on guesses just like mine were. My new company is much more honest about this fact. They have also already responded to your questions regarding the individual rooms. They told me they have used “right j” for over 30 years on new custom homes but that it is old software, not good for existing homes, oversize’s the heat loss by 15-30%, and the savings estimates are up to 80% over the actual results. If you are “certified” and go to training, you may be able to upgrade to the more sophisticated software.

I am looking into all the rebates and low interest financing. Much of this money is only available if you seal your house and insulate, as well as insulate you ductwork.
I will post my final decision and watch my fuel bills. The seller has the last 12 years of bills so we will see if the results match the predictions. The one lesson to learn is just replacing a heater and AC unit with out looking at the house and ductwork is ill conceived.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Amazing...

Lets see if the OP actually does post how much they spend... and how much their utility bills go down over the first year after all the work is done.

Would be interesting to see if it lines up with what us Pro's have seen for decades...

Not sure what the OP does professionally... however I am sure they know more about it than we do. What I am not understanding is why the OP thinks they know more about what we have done for decades...

Only thing I can think of is: This may be a publicity stunt from the folks who wrote the software mentioned... seen that on a different forum.

[catmanacman]

Sir,

This was the I-pad app they were using!

As they stated, it would seam their software is much more advanced than the software you are familiar with.

I am now considering doing all the recommended work and really bringing this house up to a new standard. Why don't all you guys recommend the Air Sealing and Duct system upgrades when replacing old units? The returns are better!

We rip out undersize and leaky duct systems all the time

[beenthere]

LOL... Right J is old, and not good for old houses. LOL

Right J is manual J version 8. the latest edition.

I take notice, you didn't post anything about how they determined how much air low to each room. Just that they addressed it with you.

Good luck.

[taxgirl]

Ok, Here are my two options.

I am going to buy a 2 speed Heat Pump and a 96% modulating Furnace, Get the house sealed and Insulated and have the ductwork done as well. We are also going to upgrade the water heater to an on demand 96% model. The Total package is $.

Our new utility pays for 1/2 the cost if your income is above %400 of poverty (they pay 75% if you are below). There is also a Manufacturer rebate of $1,300, a Free programable thermostat, and 5 free CFL light bulbs. It looks like all the rate payers contribute to this fund with a charge on their bills and the installing contractor has to be certified. I end up with right at $ out of pocket for the whole package.

As for the remainder:

1. They have an on bill 0% interest for 60 months financing option. My payment is $116.67 month

2. My mortgage banker will include the $ in our 30 year fixed home loan at 3.24% (2.5% effective after tax rate) for a cost of $28.58/month

The plug model shows about $98.78 month savings with all the improvements combined.
last year the bills averaged $283/month electric and $211 for gas but it was a warm winter.

If the system is only good for 15 years I am not sure it is wise to finance it for 30. I am looking at the tax code for other incentives but many of them seam to have expired. We should be thankful to the president,the stimulus, and the rate payers, that create these great subsidizes. i'll let you know.

[motoguy128]

No prices please per forum rules. Prices vary too much and the puprpose of the forum is to help homeowners understand equipment and issues, not get the best deal or select contractors based on price.

IF you post the specific equipment numbers we can at least tell you if they are an "aples to apples" comparison. So you know if you're comparing a Mercedes to the same model Lexus, or a Toyota Corolla.

[motoguy128]

Using cash out of a home load isn't a terrible idea, becaus ein many cases, with the long loan terms, the energy savings will payback more than the increase in monthly payments and you're replacing and permenantly installed, fixed asset that is part of the home. However, your point about the 30 year load vs. 15-20 year equipment life, is a good one. Things like insulation, roofs, or major structural repairs are a better investment from that standpoint.

That's a nice deal from the utility company. However, sometimes contractors in a region with thsoe rebates, are therefore able to charge a little more. With all those discounts, they are "less hungry". I can't say if that's true in your case because I haven;t seen the entire installation job or know the cost strucures of the contractors in your area. That's of coruse again, why you can't post prices on here. Too many vairables involved. But I have noticed in my area that prices seem to have dropped a little since the Federal tax incentives expired. I remember some other pros on this forum back in 2008 commenting on that point.

[taxgirl]

[QUOTE=ga-hvac-tech;13291081]Amazing...

Lets see if the OP actually does post how much they spend... and how much their utility bills go down over the first year after all the work is done.

Would be interesting to see if it lines up with what us Pro's have seen for decades...

Not sure what the OP does professionally... however I am sure they know more about it than we do. What I am not understanding is why the OP thinks they know more about what we have done for decades...

Sir:

1. You can see I posted the amount and it was deleted by one of your guys.

2. I do not claim to know your business, but from this experience I have certainly learned quite a bit about your profession.

a. You guys tell folks to get a Heating and Cooling load calculation done but you don't tell them you are guessing at the values entered and your calculation is useless without blower door testing the leakage rates. Your whole procedure is based on values you don't know and these values can vary considerably. You try to con people into believing you can determine these values by "measuring condensate and looking at Humidity differences".Thankfully I met an Honest contractor who dispelled these myths, tested the values, and got the correct calculations.

b. In my business new tools come along every day. You seem happy to keep
your head in the sand and ignore them, that is fine by me.I am glad the company I ended up with used the latest technology.

I do not claim to know your business, but clearly there is quite a bit of hot air.

[beshvac]

[QUOTE=ga-hvac-tech;13291081]Amazing...

Lets see if the OP actually does post how much they spend... and how much their utility bills go down over the first year after all the work is done.

Would be interesting to see if it lines up with what us Pro's have seen for decades...

Not sure what the OP does professionally... however I am sure they know more about it than we do. What I am not understanding is why the OP thinks they know more about what we have done for decades...

Sir:

1. You can see I posted the amount and it was deleted by one of your guys.

2. I do not claim to know your business, but from this experience I have certainly learned quite a bit about your profession.

I don't think you have.....if you picked a company that had a "pretty sun going across the sky". right J and wright-soft both show loads over the course of the day but its not in the "Super sales presentation format" I refused to purchase this Ipad and application from my distributor because "the latestTechnology" software on my laptop goes to greater detail--Do You Get IT?

a. You guys tell folks to get a Heating and Cooling load calculation done but you don't tell them you are guessing at the values entered and your calculation is useless without blower door testing the leakage rates. Your whole procedure is based on values you don't know and these values can vary considerably. You try to con people into believing you can determine these values by "measuring condensate and looking at Humidity differences".Thankfully I met an Honest contractor who dispelled these myths, tested the values, and got the correct calculations.

I am a Mechanical Engineer and you I am assuming are some form of accountant that is used to her numbers coming out perfect or you really do taxes and have to "interpret" the tax rules-I don't know.

Every engineering calculation has variables which must be estimated (even the engineers that design airplanes make educated guesses) I have been doing load calcs for 20 years and know the variables to look at when I am at your house- Age, type of ductwork, recessed lighting, insulation values......the list goes on....

Measuring condensate and levels was not a BS. That would be a "balance calculation" based upon steady state operation of your AC compared to equipment latent removal and outside (leaking in) moisture levels.



b. In my business new tools come along every day. You seem happy to keep
your head in the sand and ignore them, that is fine by me.I am glad the company I ended up with used the latest technology.

What technology did they use??????? The IPAD App that shows the sun???? All based on Manual J version 8????? In your first posts you were mesmerized by that dog n pony show and are now calling it the latest tech????
I do not claim to know your business, but clearly there is quite a bit of hot air.

.

[beenthere]

A .7ACH winter rate is typical of many homes in your area, which usually means your summer rate is .4ACH.

The software(or method its basing its calcs off of) your contractor is using is 2 or so years old. The creator of it is/was a member here. So many of us know of it. It was heralded as being a load calc you can run from your office while talking to the customer on the phone. He also recommended selling a 2 stage A/C so sizing accuracy wasn't as important for moisture removal.

This program was offered free to all Pro members of this site, by the designer of the software. With the exception being that you could not live within X miles of philly.

Since your learning so much about our trade. Besides leaving hot air in or out of your house. Research what else infiltration leaves enter or exit your house.

[taxgirl]

[QUOTE=taxgirl;13300331]

.


I copied this from the report:

This is an advanced tool, designed for use by professional auditors doing
thorough assessments. The equations, calculations, and modeling capabilities used in Plug have been verified by the Department of Energy, through the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, using the Building Energy Simulation Tests (BESTEST) building energy analysis protocol in accordance with ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 140-2001 Standard Method of Test for the Evaluation of Building Energy Analysis Computer Programs. Actual energy usage and savings may vary depending on building occupancy, behavior, unique house characteristics, etc.

They said software is brand new and is provided by a large German Company.

It would look to me like it is a little bit more than a "dog and pony show".
Does your software pass this test?

What I have learned is you really don't know what values to use unless you do a blower door test. I know you say you do, but that is not true, you are guessing.

I will watch the energy usage and track the results.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Ya know... I remember that free software offer now... Seems there were a bunch of discussions about it in the Pro section (open only to licensed Pro's)... The general opinion was the software was at best mediocre.

I think the OP needs to follow through with posting how much they actually save over the first 12 mos utility bills from the preceding year.

BTW: I was an Aircraft mechanic as well as a pilot in my younger days... If the OP knew how sloppy aviation mechanics and air safety was... and the level of useless bureaucracy... they would NEVER fly again.

One more thing: I do not like my tax $$$'s going to give someone else a free-bee. They should EARN the $$$ and pay the same price everyone else does. Endless deficit spending causes price inflation... regardless of what polecat is doing the spending. Hope you enjoy paying more $$$ for less value in the coming years... due to all that stimulus you think is sooo wonderful.

[beshvac]

[QUOTE=beshvac;13300511]


I copied this from the report:

This is an advanced tool, designed for use by professional auditors doing
thorough assessments. The equations, calculations, and modeling capabilities used in Plug have been verified by the Department of Energy, through the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, using the Building Energy Simulation Tests (BESTEST) building energy analysis protocol in accordance with ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 140-2001 Standard Method of Test for the Evaluation of Building Energy Analysis Computer Programs. Actual energy usage and savings may vary depending on building occupancy, behavior, unique house characteristics, etc.

They said software is brand new and is provided by a large German Company.

It would look to me like it is a little bit more than a "dog and pony show".
Does your software pass this test?

What I have learned is you really don't know what values to use unless you do a blower door test. I know you say you do, but that is not true, you are guessing.

I will watch the energy usage and track the results.

What software???? Ya think it might have some basis in physics? German company?....cool....I am half german, the rest of my heritage is that I am a mutt :)

When I was in nuclear power school the saying was "Don't tell me what you think....show me where it's written!" This whole post you wrote doesn't tell me ANYTHING. It's like all those "independant labs" giving their biggest financial donor
and big high-five and endorsement. :gah:

[catmanacman]

Easy there GA -hvac its not the home owners fault the government is giving away your hard earnered money they steal from you . Its time you realized we have a robin hood government

[ga-hvac-tech]

Easy there GA -hvac its not the home owners fault the government is giving away your hard earnered money they steal from you . Its time you realized we have a robin hood government

Yeah, we do have a robinhood govt... ELECTED by folks who could care less; as long as they get all they can rob.

IMO the folks who take are just as guilty as the govt who gives.

[beshvac]

[QUOTE=beshvac;13300511]


I copied this from the report:

Actual energy usage and savings may vary depending on building occupancy, behavior, unique house characteristics, etc.

.

::DD:

"unique house characteristics"..... like windows, doors, insulation, cathedral ceilings, orientation, duct location......infiltration......

But they will put a huge AC in your house.....but they don't mention comfort?:whistle: Just by getting new more efficient equipment you'll save a few bucks.

[beenthere]

Hard to post how much money you save. When you don't have any way to know what it would have cost you before putting in the new system.

[taxgirl]

Hard to post how much money you save. When you don't have any way to know what it would have cost you before putting in the new system.

The way he explained it, first they do a “test in” where they use the blower door to measure the homes leakage and look for other areas of energy waste. After the work is completed they use the blower door again and do a “test out” to make sure they have achieved the results. The Building Performance Institute must certify the company doing the testing. Very few AC companies can pass the test, AC companies were responsible for many of the problems in homes today and new proposed federal HOMES legislation will not let AC companies do work without a BPI supervisor. It sounds like this is what congress should be voting for. Once the test out is completed the utility pays the whole bill and I pay the utility half either monthly at 0% on my bill for 60 months or in one lump sum, a great deal for homeowners. Hopefully the HOMES bill will pass and this will be the law everywhere.


He laughed at my experience with all the different companies, AC sizes, and how I was told leakage could be figured by boiling water, measuring condensate, and humidity. He said AC companies loads were a “crock”, because they do not have the skills, equipment, or training to do things right and they don’t care. “The house is a system and you need to be a building scientist to understand it.”

I have the last 12 years of bills so I can easily compare.We will see.

[ga-hvac-tech]

The way he explained it, first they do a “test in” where they use the blower door to measure the homes leakage and look for other areas of energy waste. After the work is completed they use the blower door again and do a “test out” to make sure they have achieved the results. The Building Performance Institute must certify the company doing the testing. Very few AC companies can pass the test, AC companies were responsible for many of the problems in homes today and new proposed federal HOMES legislation will not let AC companies do work without a BPI supervisor. It sounds like this is what congress should be voting for. Once the test out is completed the utility pays the whole bill and I pay the utility half either monthly at 0% on my bill for 60 months or in one lump sum, a great deal for homeowners. Hopefully the HOMES bill will pass and this will be the law everywhere.


He laughed at my experience with all the different companies, AC sizes, and how I was told leakage could be figured by boiling water, measuring condensate, and humidity. He said AC companies loads were a “crock”, because they do not have the skills, equipment, or training to do things right and they don’t care. “The house is a system and you need to be a building scientist to understand it.”

I have the last 12 years of bills so I can easily compare.We will see.

You might want to do a search on BPI here... might learn something different than the rosy picture you have been painted (by someone that will gain financially from the roses).

[taxgirl]

You might want to do a search on BPI here... might learn something different than the rosy picture you have been painted (by someone that will gain financially from the roses).

Mr Ga.

Now we have moved into my area of expertise, taxes. Interest subsidies, rebates,and tax credits will pay for over half of the cost of the my new HeatPump, Gas Furnace, Air Sealing, Insulation, and new water heater but it has to be a BPI certified company. With the new HOLMES act in congress homeowners will have huge tax breaks, but it must be a BPI company and the AC guy can only be just the installer.

The tax implications, subsidies, and rebates are the most important part of the deal. Of all the AC companies that looked at my job, not one mentioned rebates, only the full service home professional. It looks like the AC guys are best at service and need to let the building science guys do the design work. You can't get all the tax breaks and rebates if the AC company does the work. Our BPI company, who also does AC says most AC guys don't know and don't care about the whole "home as a system".
I am looking into even more ways the utilities and government are working to help pay the cost of new systems.It is good to see our politicians have finally seen the light and I will be showing our clients how to use this free money as well.

[beenthere]

Treating the building as a system may be new to you, but isn't something new to us.

Unless your going to set the thermostat to the same times as the previous owners did. those bill are only a vague reference.

[taxgirl]

Treating the building as a system may be new to you, but isn't something new to us.

Unless your going to set the thermostat to the same times as the previous owners did. those bill are only a vague reference.

Sir,

That may be true, But the Federal Government, State Government, Utilities, and the conservation organizations don't believe you. They will only pay rebates on companies BPI certified. From what I have learned about some of the methods used by the folks to calculate a homes leakage they have a valid point.

From my ongoing research on this subject, BPI companies always use Blower Doors and test everything, you boil water and collect condensate, who would you put your trust in? I don't think just installing the equipment and servicing it is at all bad. There is just a lot more to consider. It might be best to let the professional building scientist do the analysis and design and you guys can just do the install. This looks like the business model being presented by our government, the utilities, and those most active in home energy savings.Can they all be wrong?

As for the savings, I don't know yet how tell what the prior owner did with the thermostat. But the good news is all the money is paid on "predicted savings" from these new generation software tools you are not aware of, not the actual savings. The subsidies are so good I win even if I don't save a penny!

If you think you can, why don't you see if you can pass the BPI test? It looks like that is what it takes to participate in these programs.I am currently looking for all the money out there to subsidize home improvements, it is an amazing amount of money.My new company makes it clear we need people fully trained in Building Science to make sure it is not wasted.

[beshvac]

Treating the building as a system may be new to you, but isn't something new to us.
Unless your going to set the thermostat to the same times as the previous owners did. those bill are only a vague reference.

I agree and I am done with this thread. I have been doing the "whole house" approach since 1993. Been to all the training classes with the pioneers of building science, done blower door testing, duct blaster testing and am certified in a couple of those programs.

If I was to "certify" myself in 1/2 the HVAC programs out there I would be broke, as they all cost big bucks-this isn't accounting where you get a tax cert or CPA from an accedited agency and once you pay once....you continue to pay renewals to keep your cert.....what a racket...

New generation software???? Did the laws of physics somehow change this year???

[beshvac]

There was a building scientist a few years ago....would sell people a "foil vapor barrier" to put up on the walls right before they were sheetrocked......People just believed everything this guy said, and no matter how much you tried to explain to people that the shiny foil cover....that was behind the sheetrock....didn't do a damn thing except cost them money....the laws of physics and radiative heat transfer is nothing new.....d:gah:

[ga-hvac-tech]

Mr Ga.

Now we have moved into my area of expertise, taxes. Interest subsidies, rebates,and tax credits will pay for over half of the cost of the my new HeatPump, Gas Furnace, Air Sealing, Insulation, and new water heater but it has to be a BPI certified company. With the new HOLMES act in congress homeowners will have huge tax breaks, but it must be a BPI company and the AC guy can only be just the installer.

The tax implications, subsidies, and rebates are the most important part of the deal. Of all the AC companies that looked at my job, not one mentioned rebates, only the full service home professional. It looks like the AC guys are best at service and need to let the building science guys do the design work. You can't get all the tax breaks and rebates if the AC company does the work. Our BPI company, who also does AC says most AC guys don't know and don't care about the whole "home as a system".
I am looking into even more ways the utilities and government are working to help pay the cost of new systems.It is good to see our politicians have finally seen the light and I will be showing our clients how to use this free money as well.

I figured you are a bean-counter... I can tell you endless stories of bean-counters who cannot see the forest for the trees.

Things with engineering in them do not respond to being 'counted like beans'... they need technical attention. And again, I could tell you endless stories of customers who did not 'want' to acknowledge this.

Oh, and one more thing: Trane HVAC was bought by Ingersol Rand... and the bean counters wrecked the quality over the next few years. Guess who had the MOST customer complaints in 2010... yeah, the same company the bean counters destroyed with their numbers.

BPI (building science) has been around for many a decade... under different names. Folks first started tightening their homes in the 1970's with the first Arab Oil embargo (back when Gasoline was well less than $1.00/gal... many of us folks here at H-talk were running businesses back then.

If you check the tax rules, you will find there were federal tax credits for caulking your home as far back as the late 1970's. If you do a large picture view of tax credits for energy improvements, you will find they are gimmicks to get folks to spend $$$ during soft economies. They always go away (like the greenies always go away) when economies firm up.

I stand on my statement a while back:

Post how much you spend on this whole thing (no, the freebees you get at MY TAX $$$ EXPENSE do NOT count). Then post how much $$$ you actually save over the first year. As I have stated... you might learn something.

BTW: WHEN (not if) we get rid of that idiot in the white house... there will not be any more federal handouts. Better get your extortion while you can... Robinhood is gonna be voted out of office this fall.

[beenthere]

Sir,

That may be true, But the Federal Government, State Government, Utilities, and the conservation organizations don't believe you. They will only pay rebates on companies BPI certified. From what I have learned about some of the methods used by the folks to calculate a homes leakage they have a valid point.

From my ongoing research on this subject, BPI companies always use Blower Doors and test everything, you boil water and collect condensate, who would you put your trust in? I don't think just installing the equipment and servicing it is at all bad. There is just a lot more to consider. It might be best to let the professional building scientist do the analysis and design and you guys can just do the install. This looks like the business model being presented by our government, the utilities, and those most active in home energy savings.Can they all be wrong?

As for the savings, I don't know yet how tell what the prior owner did with the thermostat. But the good news is all the money is paid on "predicted savings" from these new generation software tools you are not aware of, not the actual savings. The subsidies are so good I win even if I don't save a penny!

If you think you can, why don't you see if you can pass the BPI test? It looks like that is what it takes to participate in these programs.I am currently looking for all the money out there to subsidize home improvements, it is an amazing amount of money.My new company makes it clear we need people fully trained in Building Science to make sure it is not wasted.

I have no interest in becoming BPI certified. Although it is a good way to get some of my tax money back.

While my way may not be approved by the gov, or utility companies. It does tell me the natural leakage rate at that moment. Unlike a blower door test that can't actually tell you the natural leakage rate at any given moment.

I'm all for blower door tests. Too bad you and many other home owners aren't. What your for, is the money the gov and utilities give you for having it done.

Can the Gov or a utility be wrong? Can't believe anybody would suggest their always right.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I have no interest in becoming BPI certified. Although it is a good way to get some of my tax money back.

While my way may not be approved by the gov, or utility companies. It does tell me the natural leakage rate at that moment. Unlike a blower door test that can't actually tell you the natural leakage rate at any given moment.

I'm all for blower door tests. Too bad you and many other home owners aren't. What your for, is the money the gov and utilities give you for having it done.

Can the Gov or a utility be wrong? Can't believe anybody would suggest their always right.

Perhaps one might ask the question: How many times is the govt right vs how many times are they wrong? If one truly did the research, they would be somewhere between amazed and terrified at how FEW times the govt is actually right.

However, as BeenThere said: Most folks are not really interested inthe facts... they are only interested in what they THINK (incorrectly BTW) they are getting for nothing. Amazing how greed causes one to not think clearly.

[taxgirl]

Guys,

From my research, I believe you are both correct. Local, State, and Federal tax codes and energy programs, combined with Utility rebates, and low/no interest loans dramatically alter and distort the playing field, stacking the deck against the little guy in favor of larger companies that can absorb the added training, certifications, test instruments, software, and other compliance costs.

These larger companies will get the high end, affluent customers, who benefit the most from tax breaks, but the customer should not be blamed for taking full advantage of the incentive bonanza that is out there or the fact that they must use a "certified contractor" to reap the rewards.

I agree, your methods and practices may well be proven and time tested, but without the certifications you become relegated to a second tier player. Not fair, but the segregation of your industry would seam to be one of large companies vs small companies with your industry organizations' positions supporting the legislation and using energy codes to create competitive advantages for the big company. No one is representing the little guy.

[motoguy128]

I find it interesting that a premium similar system I quoted in 2008 at the height of the tax credit boom, is now actually cheaper 4 years later from the same company.... by a significant amount... and that's before mfg rebates. After rebates its' something like 30% cheaper.

[beshvac]

Guys,

From my research, I believe you are both correct. Local, State, and Federal tax codes and energy programs, combined with Utility rebates, and low/no interest loans dramatically alter and distort the playing field, stacking the deck against the little guy in favor of larger companies that can absorb the added training, certifications, test instruments, software, and other compliance costs.

These larger companies will get the high end, affluent customers, who benefit the most from tax breaks, but the customer should not be blamed for taking full advantage of the incentive bonanza that is out there or the fact that they must use a "certified contractor" to reap the rewards.

I agree, your methods and practices may well be proven and time tested, but without the certifications you become relegated to a second tier player. Not fair, but the segregation of your industry would seam to be one of large companies vs small companies with your industry organizations' positions supporting the legislation and using energy codes to create competitive advantages for the big company. No one is representing the little guy.

:whistle: You just don't know anything about our industry and are drawn like a bug to the light with the marketing hype.....That big company (like the biggest one in my town that is also BPI certified) doesn't do work to my standards.....Oh, Hurry up .....they are giving away "Free Installations" this month. Ironically, my last estimate this evening was with an accountant with his own business....and we both laughed about it.:cheers:

[ga-hvac-tech]

Hmmm... A bean counter that does not understand they get what they pay for... The OP must have skipped cost accounting when they got their credentials.

BTW: Ever check the BBB on these wonderful large companies... then on the smaller ones? might learn something... :whistle:

This will be my last post here... some folks are just too arrogant to listen... they deserve what they will get.

Best to you; In a few years, you will understand you have been taken... until then, enjoy the rosy glow.

And BTW: As noted: Better get it while you can. After the election this fall... Govt (read that robinhood) handouts will dry up.

[taxgirl]

Hmmm... A bean counter that does not understand they get what they pay for... The OP must have skipped cost accounting when they got their credentials.

BTW: Ever check the BBB on these wonderful large companies... then on the smaller ones? might learn something... :whistle:

This will be my last post here... some folks are just too arrogant to listen... they deserve what they will get.

Best to you; In a few years, you will understand you have been taken... until then, enjoy the rosy glow.

And BTW: As noted: Better get it while you can. After the election this fall... Govt (read that robinhood) handouts will dry up.


Ga, You seam to be angry at the Government but it is hard to understand how that has anything to do with my situation.You are also wrong.Also most of the new incentives come from Utilities that are paid for by other rate payers. These are increasing dramatically.

If we buy a Geothermal Heat Pump w an integrated Water Heater, air seal the house, and insulate, We get a 30% tax credit(till 2016) worth about $11,000, and we still get the $7,900 in rebates from the Utility.

Our mortgage payment will increase by $106/month but we end up with
$19,000 positive cash flow in the first year. Any energy savings are additional.

I am sorry you and other small contractors have been cut out of this bonanza but we pay over 6 figures in income tax/yr and I can see no reason not to take advantage of this. We end up with almost $20,000 free cash first year! You can't beat it!

[taxgirl]

We have gone ahead with the AC and Modulating Gas Furnace. Thankful you everyone's comments.

One thing is clear from my experience purchasing an existing home and a new system.
There is no reliable way to do a load calculation on an old home without a Blower
door test and duct leakage test, anything else is an unreliable guess.

It surprises me that with all the talk here about the importance of proper sizing, guys feel comfortable guessing on the load calc inputs.They say do it right, then do it wrong.

I would tell home owners a load calc is only as good as the data interred and hire a company that tests, not a guy who guesses, or "boils water".

It is also sad small companies have been kept out of all the rebate programs.

[crymtide]

If we buy a Geothermal Heat Pump w an integrated Water Heater, air seal the house, and insulate, We get a 30% tax credit(till 2016) worth about $11,000, and we still get the $7,900 in rebates from the Utility.

Our mortgage payment will increase by $106/month but we end up with
$19,000 positive cash flow in the first year. Any energy savings are additional.

Well then what are you waiting for: GO FOR THE GEO THEMAL.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I will say this again:

Come back in a year and tell us how much $$$ you REALLY saved.

As to me not liking the govt; well, they rip me off in taxes, so they can give you $$$ for your heat and AC. Please do not forget YOU are being ripped off in taxes to give Joe Smith down the road his cheap heater and AC.

And the utilities: I can assure you the ONLY reason the utilities are giving the rebates is because the govt is forcing them to. Ever wonder where the $$$ for those rebates comes from? Well the ONLY thing the utilities sell is energy... so anyone with business sense would know the rebates are coming out of YOUR utility bill.

So tell me Ms accountant: How do YOU like subsidizing other folks heat and AC equipment and energy costs? YOU are doing it both through your tax $$$, and your energy bills.

Socialism; it feels good when I think I am getting something for nothing... until I realize I am also paying for everyone else's something for nothing.

Given that YOU are subsidizing others for the same thing you got a deal on... do you still think it was such a great deal?

[beenthere]

Small guys aren't out of the loop on rebates. We just don't rely on them to sell like the big companies do. And not all states or utilities offer rebates.

Good luck.

[taxgirl]

I will say this again:

Come back in a year and tell us how much $$$ you REALLY saved.

As to me not liking the govt; well, they rip me off in taxes, so they can give you $$$ for your heat and AC. Please do not forget YOU are being ripped off in taxes to give Joe Smith down the road his cheap heater and AC.

And the utilities: I can assure you the ONLY reason the utilities are giving the rebates is because the govt is forcing them to. Ever wonder where the $$$ for those rebates comes from? Well the ONLY thing the utilities sell is energy... so anyone with business sense would know the rebates are coming out of YOUR utility bill.

So tell me Ms accountant: How do YOU like subsidizing other folks heat and AC equipment and energy costs? YOU are doing it both through your tax $$$, and your energy bills.

Socialism; it feels good when I think I am getting something for nothing... until I realize I am also paying for everyone else's something for nothing.

Given that YOU are subsidizing others for the same thing you got a deal on... do you still think it was such a great deal?


Sir,

It is your Association and your Manufacturers who are pushing the legislation
and utility programs. They claim to represent and speak for you.

I have stated and I agree, these these incentives and programs create two classes of companies. The larger company "Have's", who can comply with the programs and get the best customers and profits and the little company "Have Not's" who get what is left,servicing the low margin business.

We also agree that these programs are absolutely socialist, but why
deny our family the ability to get some of our tax money back if we can?
BTW,you do not have to save a penny for the NJ program to put you way ahead.

[taxgirl]

If we buy a Geothermal Heat Pump w an integrated Water Heater, air seal the house, and insulate, We get a 30% tax credit(till 2016) worth about $11,000, and we still get the $7,900 in rebates from the Utility.

Our mortgage payment will increase by $106/month but we end up with
$19,000 positive cash flow in the first year. Any energy savings are additional.

Well then what are you waiting for: GO FOR THE GEO THEMAL.



While the 30% tax credit was quite an enticement, the Geo system looked like it would totally destroy the yard in the process.
I am also concerned about the viability of these companies after their tax credits end.

The Geo guys said their entire industry would not exist with out the tax breaks. They said the Government is the only thing that keeps them in business.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Sir,

It is your Association and your Manufacturers who are pushing the legislation
and utility programs. They claim to represent and speak for you.

I have stated and I agree, these these incentives and programs create two classes of companies. The larger company "Have's", who can comply with the programs and get the best customers and profits and the little company "Have Not's" who get what is left,servicing the low margin business.

We also agree that these programs are absolutely socialist, but why
deny our family the ability to get some of our tax money back if we can?
BTW,you do not have to save a penny for the NJ program to put you way ahead.

The fact you are willing to take this incentive $$$, tells me you are just greedy and have no morals beyond your wallet.

I notice ripping off others for your gain is fine... yet you will not acknowledge you are being ripped off for others doing the same you are doing. Amazes me how much 'selective thinking' so called educated folks have.

And NO, I do not support the folks who are pushing this. I addressed it a while back; it is govt pressure causing it.

I am out of here... talking to a spoiled child is not worth my time.

Come back a year from now and tell us how much $$$ you REALLY saved on your utility bill... and if it would have been a good investment without ripping off someone else.

My only regret is I will not be there someday when you realize the govt is ripping you off more than you are getting... and get whopping mad about it... so I can say: I told you so.

Bye-bye.

[taxgirl]

Sir,

I must confess I still do not get your beef with my taking advantage of rebates and incentives offered on my new system, air sealing and insulation.

Do you advise your clients not to take advantage of rebates for which they are eligible?
How can you claim to be acting in their best interest?

Do you preach your political doctrine on every service call?

Do your customers care what your political opinions are or do they just want their system serviced?

I have stated that in general we agree. I do not support the socialist energy programs that discriminate against small companies and lock you out of higher end consumers. But it is your own organization that supports and lobbies for these programs. I also agree small companies have no voice.

I must also say, for all the talk of load calculations on this site, it might be nice to let the consumers coming here for help know, that you are just guessing at the key inputs to your model, and any load calculation is an educated guess at best. Pretending
you are "right", does not help your cause or credibility and only gives ammunition to the
Blower Door guys and Certification programs you detest.

[taxgirl]

Guys,

Since we moved into our new house the temperature has been greater than your software's "design temperature every day! Today it will be 105 outside.

So when it comes to your Load Calculation, Not only do you not know the leakage, duct losses, youu also don't know the outside temperature! You really are just guessing at all this just like all the rest of the guys.

Thank god we bought the larger two speed unit and did not down size like your software said.I think the larger companies promoting the two speed high end products are serving the customer better than guys pretending to know the size a unit should be when obviously that is not true.

I guess it makes them feel good that they can perform the calculations.

[beenthere]

Strange. Out of all the calls I had today. Not a one was from a customer that I sold a system to complaining it wouldn't maintain set temp. And we had temps well above our areas design temps.

I know a few of them didn't maintain 72. But I also know they held the humidity down to less then 50%. And at 74°F 46%RH, those people are very comfortable. I know this from doing their clean and checks for years now. 74 degrees at 46%RH feels cooler then 72 at 52%RH.


So what is the temp and RH in your house today. What is the RH in your house on milder temp days.

I happy your happy with your system. I sell more 2 stage equipment then you probably think. And I know how they work, and why.

[beshvac]

Strange. Out of all the calls I had today. Not a one was from a customer that I sold a system to complaining it wouldn't maintain set temp. And we had temps well above our areas design temps.

I know a few of them didn't maintain 72. But I also know they held the humidity down to less then 50%. And at 74°F 46%RH, those people are very comfortable. I know this from doing their clean and checks for years now. 74 degrees at 46%RH feels cooler then 72 at 52%RH.


So what is the temp and RH in your house today. What is the RH in your house on milder temp days.

I happy your happy with your system. I sell more 2 stage equipment then you probably think. And I know how they work, and why.

Same here, only had one customer call that their single speed heatpump is running most of the day but maintaining setpoint........it doesn't get much better than that 7 degrees above design :). Same customer also mentioned his vacation house only runs 10 minutes in this weather :whistle:...

[taxgirl]

Same here, only had one customer call that their single speed heatpump is running most of the day but maintaining setpoint........it doesn't get much better than that 7 degrees above design :). Same customer also mentioned his vacation house only runs 10 minutes in this weather :whistle:...

Sirs,

With respect, I have now done considerable research on this topic.

If your customers units are keeping up with the load when the outside temperature is above the "design temperature" than the units are oversized by your own definition. If they only run for "10 minutes" they are way oversized. So you have oversized every one of your customers units!

A "properly sized unit should run continuously at design temp because that is the point where a units capacity equals the homes load".

The fact that a unit maintains indoor temperature at higher outside temperatures proves you oversized all of them. If they are maintaining temperature at the kind hot weather we are having than you way oversized them. Your program says use 89 for my area,
it was 105 yesterday, if your unit keeps the temp below 75 yesterday it was dramatically oversized. Your comments show clearly the flaw in your methods. They also prove that your guesses on the inputs like a homes leakage, and duct system losses, etc, are far greater than reality, so you are building in safety factors not really calculating anything.

Also, with the temps staying way above "normal design" what value are they?

I understand your need to think you are "calculating" these loads to some exact number, but the facts prove quite the opposite, you are making guesses.

[beenthere]

Wow, you have done research. But have no real experience, and still think you know more about load calcs and HVAC then any of us that are in the trade.

Guess your researched missed the part about regaining sensible capacity as the latent load drops. Along with missing the fact that a house that comes out to a 2.2 ton load, will usually end up getting a 2.5 ton system, since they don't make 2.2 ton units.

You have enough tidbits of info, to make you think you know how it works. Just you really don't know, and are starting to sound foolish.

[beenthere]

If they only run for "10 minutes" they are way oversized. So you have oversized every one of your customers units!

He didn't size or install that unit. He sized and installed the one that is running almost 24/7.

[beshvac]

He didn't size or install that unit. He sized and installed the one that is running almost 24/7.

Correct! :cheers:

[taxgirl]

While, you have done research. But have no real experience, and still think you know more about load calcs and HVAC then any of us that are in the trade.

Guess your researched missed the part about regaining sensible capacity as the latent load drops. Along with missing the fact that a house that comes out to a 2.2 ton load, will usually end up getting a 2.5 ton system, since they don't make 2.2 ton units.

You have enough tidbits of info, to make you think you know how it works. Just you really don't know, and are starting to sound foolish.

Sir,

If your design temperature is 89 and your unit maintains 75 when it is over 100 outside it is oversized. That can not be in dispute or your whole premise is shot. If that is not true than what is the point of your "calculation".

I have stated and acknowledge your need to think you are calculating something, unfortunately that is simply not true.You are making what my husband (an engineer) calls a SWAG when it comes to the values you input.

I have done quite a bit of research on this topic(for another reason) and if your units were keeping up when temperatures were 7-15 degrees over your design temperature, than all your units were all oversized. BTW, I do not find this surprising. My husband call padding your guesses, CYA!

[beenthere]

My areas design temp is not 89. I also posted why many units are holding indoor temp when the outdoor temp is above design. But I see you decided to just ignore that. Is this an example of how you did the rest of your research? Just ignored what you didn't like to find out.

I realize that having a new system installed has made you an expert in the HVAC residential field. And no one should doubt you.

Oh, and what is your indoor set temp, and what is your indoor RH when your having these record high temps. And what RH is it maintaining on the mild days. You didn't answer that question yet.

[taxgirl]

My areas design temp is not 89. I also posted why many units are holding indoor temp when the outdoor temp is above design. But I see you decided to just ignore that. Is this an example of how you did the rest of your research? Just ignored what you didn't like to find out.

I realize that having a new system installed has made you an expert in the HVAC residential field. And no one should doubt you.

Oh, and what is your indoor set temp, and what is your indoor RH when your having these record high temps. And what RH is it maintaining on the mild days. You didn't answer that question yet.

Sir,

Our new unit has a "run to dehumidify" feature and displays indoor RH. It has not moved from 50% since we moved in(however it has been over 90 every day).

I have done significant research on this topic. If your unit is maintaining temperature above design temperature it is oversized. That is the undeniable fundamental premise of the procedure.

I understand that single speed units come in certain sizes and that you "CYA" and round up. It also makes the case as to why making all these calculations and than installing a single speed unit is silly. In NJ there will be 80% of the time when no AC is required, 15% of the time when when 1st speed is required, and 5% when the unit will need full capacity. My new neighbor has a Maytag unit that "fully modulates" from 40% to over 110% of the capacity.

This makes sense to me because obviously this "load calculation" is so speculative, arbitrary and guesswork. A unit that increases or decreases capacity to the exact load as it varies with outside temperature has to be the most comfortable.

I am doing more research on this than you may think.

[beenthere]

This makes sense to me because obviously this "load calculation" is so speculative, arbitrary and guesswork. A unit that increases or decreases capacity to the exact load as it varies with outside temperature has to be the most comfortable.

Well, you said something that is very true in that statement. So why didn't you that system, instead of the 2 stage that you got. Nordyne's IQ or Carrier's Greenspeed would be the 2 ducted split units that actually vary their capacity to meet the actual load of the house.

50%? Is that all the better it can do?

The 2 stage systems I install don't let the humidity get that high. Does your house leak more then they said it does. Or is it that your 2 stage unit has a high SHR, and can't dehumidify very well? Many 2 stage units don't have a good SHR in first stage.



PS: Installing oversized 2 stage units is known as CYA. Many large companies do it.

[hvacvegas]

Wow. I'm glad I lost internet for a week, and missed most of this thread.

Original poster:
You have no idea what your talking about. Just because you've done some "research", doesn't mean jack.

To that point, if your here to argue, then you have no reason to be here.
Whats your end goal of being here?

Apparently, you find it fun to argue with people, armed with short factual phrases, that we've heard multiple times.
It's clear you think your bringing something new to the discussion every time you post, but your really not. Your just sprewing random garbage.

The entire point of this portion of the site, is for homeowners to ask questions, for professionals to respond to them, and for you to take the advice, or walk. Maybe even chat a bit, and for you to learn something.

You, have choosen a new path.
Ask the question, recieve the response, tell us how we're wrong, and then try and teach US.

So, I stress:
What is your REASON for being here?


Your an accountant, and your husband is an engineer? I would have never guessed that from your posts............


Props to GA for his accurate guesswork of your occupation.

[taxgirl]

Wow. I'm glad I lost internet for a week, and missed most of this thread.

Original poster:
You have no idea what your talking about. Just because you've done some "research", doesn't mean jack.

To that point, if your here to argue, then you have no reason to be here.
Whats your end goal of being here?

Apparently, you find it fun to argue with people, armed with short factual phrases, that we've heard multiple times.
It's clear you think your bringing something new to the discussion every time you post, but your really not. Your just sprewing random garbage.

The entire point of this portion of the site, is for homeowners to ask questions, for professionals to respond to them, and for you to take the advice, or walk. Maybe even chat a bit, and for you to learn something.

You, have choosen a new path.
Ask the question, recieve the response, tell us how we're wrong, and then try and teach US.

So, I stress:
What is your REASON for being here?


Your an accountant, and your husband is an engineer? I would have never guessed that from your posts............


Props to GA for his accurate guesswork of your occupation.

Sir,

I accept that the confirmations from the two contractors that all of their systems are oversized and therefore maintain the indoor temperatures of their customers at temperatures above the specified design temperature should not be seen as a bad thing, when, it is simply a recognition of the facts.

It does however demonstrate what we call “confirmation bias” in Computer-Science courses. Since, there is no way to know any of the homes characteristics, the weather, home owner preferences or behavior, or any other input to the model, the user makes assumptions that give him the answers that confirm expectations, and in this case, install units that customers will not call and complain. Nothing wrong with that, it is just not any different than not doing the calculations.

The question I still have is, why were the residential models simplified and dumbed down to the 4th grade math level by removing the “time” variant, the variance between variables, and removing all the sophistication required to model load changes over time, particularly when there is a recognition that changing loads and “part loads” create comfort challenges? I hope the little guys can access the software, training, upgrade to the same models the larger contractors use and better serve their customers.

[beshvac]

Sir,

customers will not call and complain. Nothing wrong with that, it is just not any different than not doing the calculations.

Wrong- It is significantly different than NOT doing the calculations.

The question I still have is, why were the residential models simplified and dumbed down to the 4th grade math level by removing the “time” variant, the variance between variables, and removing all the sophistication required to model load changes over time, particularly when there is a recognition that changing loads and “part loads” create comfort challenges? I hope the little guys can access the software, training, upgrade to the same models the larger contractors use and better serve their customers.

Still do not know what you are talking about. My software has the time variant. My company is small, but high end and we do much better work than ANY large company in our area.

[beenthere]

Little guys? LOL, as I said we were all offered that software for FREE. That was back in 2010. So what you think is cutting edge technology, is already old.

A manual J gives the load for the peak load of the day. From there, plotting partial load needs is easy, if anyone wants to do it.

You should know that cool girl.

[taxgirl]

Still do not know what you are talking about. My software has the time variant. My company is small, but high end and we do much better work than ANY large company in our area.

Sir,

I am sorry, but the confirmation bias self evident in the calculations, and not doing the calculations are the same thing. You do not and can not know any of the inputs so you make assumptions that give you answers that work for you. You make them come out.It happens all the time in many fields.

As you stated, all your units cool at outside temperatures over your design temperature, thus they are all oversized, and so your customers don't call.

I do not question the quality of your work, but your analysis tool is very much a simplified, dumbed down version of more sophisticated models with the time variant removed. It does not show rates of change or part load values.

[taxgirl]

Little guys? LOL, as I said we were all offered that software for FREE. That was back in 2010. So what you think is cutting edge technology, is already old.

A manual J gives the load for the peak load of the day. From there, plotting partial load needs is easy, if anyone wants to do it.

You should know that cool girl.

Sir,

My research on load calculations clearly show all the best HVAC designers focus on Hourly loads not the Peak loads you are currently guessing(making come out) at. ASHRAE procedures, the even more sophisticated Radiant "Time" series,DOE Blast, or even operating loads used by utilities are all based on changes over time that are well beyond your scope of your simplified methods with the hourly weather data and solar profiles removed and all the other inputs reduced to static numbers not variable fields like reality.Hourly Load calculation methods,have evolved over the last 50 years not 2 and I could find none of these programs offered free.

I am considering working with my new Christian HVAC contractor, who also teaches HVAC at both the Tech School and Jr. College and teaming up with my computer classes to provide a residential version of these more sophisticated models, but I still don't understand why they were simplified in the first place. I think small contractors should have the same tools the big guys use.

We do agree that you can make any model come out to your expectations.The fact that all your systems are oversized confirms this.

I will keep you posted on our progress.

[beenthere]

You do realize that Manual j is modeled after ASHRAE procedures. So your somewhat contradicting yourself cool girl.

[beenthere]

You still haven't explained about regaining latent capacity back as sensible. Didn't your research go into this.

If any system i put in is over sized. then it wouldn't control humidity. You speak of what you don't know about.

[taxgirl]

You do realize that Manual j is modeled after ASHRAE procedures. So your somewhat contradicting yourself cool girl.

Sir,

I may not be qualified to instal HVAC but I am a fully qualified computer science instructor and have done my research on this topic.

We agree and as I clearly stated, your procedure is a simplified, Dumbed Down version of the full ASHREA load calculation model stripped of all time variants, hourly weather data, where all elements that are in reality profiles are reduced to singular entries.

I can only guess this simplification was done to make the calculation easier by sticking to simple math for contractors not versed in algebra or the calculus and also that at the time this was done residential equipment only came in single speed units.

I feel my students working with our HVAC instructor guru could produce a better tool, or at least one that would put the focus back on the loads changing over time rather than what they may be at some arbitrary point. A point I might add that has been surpassed every day I have lived in my new home.

I also agree, it does not make much sense to use more sophisticated models as long as everyone is just forcing the input values and using the models to get the answers they want. Although like I said, I understand why you guys do that.

[beenthere]

I may not be qualified to instal HVAC but I am a fully qualified computer science instructor and have done my research on this topic.


I doubt you have done any real building science research. Come back in a few years when you have.

Tell how your system does when its only 75 outside.

[beshvac]

Sir,

I am sorry, but the confirmation bias self evident in the calculations, and not doing the calculations are the same thing. You do not and can not know any of the inputs so you make assumptions that give you answers that work for you. You make them come out.It happens all the time in many fields.

As you stated, all your units cool at outside temperatures over your design temperature, thus they are all oversized, and so your customers don't call.

I do not question the quality of your work, but your analysis tool is very much a simplified, dumbed down version of more sophisticated models with the time variant removed. It does not show rates of change or part load values.

I do not "make them come out" and look for the results and do not look for answers that work for me-that's very insulting.

[taxgirl]

I doubt you have done any real building science research. Come back in a few years when you have.

Tell how your system does when its only 75 outside.

Sir,

As a computer professional, I do know that you can’t guesses at a homes insulation characteristics, leakage rates, and duct losses, combine these with guesses on how a homes occupants will live, add to this guesses about both inside and outside temperatures, put these into computer and expect to get anything other than garbage out of it. We call it GIGO. Only in this case it is more like guesses in guesses out.

So instead you use values that give you CYA answers and your units maintain indoor temperatures even when by definition they should not. I believe you stated all your customers units operate this way, oversized.

I have also learned from my new Home Performance contractor that Building Science, Home Performance software, uses a much more rigorous Government testing protocol called BESTEST that your simplified procedure can not pass. I find it interesting, you prefer the simple model rather than the more rigorous time variant variety, on the one hand, you pretend to model but on the other, you only use the most simplistic methods, a contradiction for sure.

I will continue my research and let you know how my new system performs at 75.

[taxgirl]

I do not "make them come out" and look for the results and do not look for answers that work for me-that's very insulting.

Sir,

The confirmation bias is hard to accept. But it is a fact. There is not one input
in your model that you know, your guesses are at best expressed as ranges. You have to guess so you guess high. This gives you loads that are weighted toward larger units. This in turn keeps your customers from calling when it is "7 degrees over design".

Your own description confirms your bias, your units are all oversized by your own definition. That is ok, you are just not calculating anything, just going through motions that produce the results you want.

As my husband likes to say, It is what it is.

[beenthere]

Sir,

As a computer professional, I do know that you can’t guesses at a homes insulation characteristics, leakage rates, and duct losses, combine these with guesses on how a homes occupants will live, add to this guesses about both inside and outside temperatures, put these into computer and expect to get anything other than garbage out of it. We call it GIGO. Only in this case it is more like guesses in guesses out.

So instead you use values that give you CYA answers and your units maintain indoor temperatures even when by definition they should not. I believe you stated all your customers units operate this way, oversized.

I have also learned from my new Home Performance contractor that Building Science, Home Performance software, uses a much more rigorous Government testing protocol called BESTEST that your simplified procedure can not pass. I find it interesting, you prefer the simple model rather than the more rigorous time variant variety, on the one hand, you pretend to model but on the other, you only use the most simplistic methods, a contradiction for sure.

I will continue my research and let you know how my new system performs at 75.


LOL... Yes, your so impressed with watching the sun move across your house on an ipad.


Hello phil.

You still didn't explain regaining sensible capacity.