obama

[catmanacman]

I hate to say it but it is starting look like 4 more years of Obamanismn as Romney does not seem to have what is needed to defeat Obama :gah:

[Six]

Its too early to proclaim Romney the winner. Its IS unreal that people are this blinded and to accept 4 more years of Obama.

All hyperbole aside all they have to do is take a honest look at the state of our economy. At our National Debt that growing at an alarming rate.

The guy with the least amount of experience got elected to the highest office in the land because people bought into the platitudes and media love affair.

[Diceman]

like the debt is obamas fault, yeah right.
our country went into debt under reagan, it was his presidency where we became a country who was owed money to a country that owed.
no repub has ever cut the gov spending, bush took it to new limits with two unfunded wars and other poor decisions.
considering what obama walked into he is doing pretty well.
economy picking up, more jobs, ending wars and finally fighting for the middle class over rich corporations and the wealthy who get richer and more powerful even during bad economic times.
I think more and more people are finally realizing that.
watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WbQe-wVK9E&feature=youtu.be

[netsalt]

I find it amazing that people want to go back to the failed policies of "trickle down" (or as the cons prefer "supply side") economics. We had Voodoo economics under Ronzo and nothing has changed in the R's playbook. Unfunded wars, tax cuts and programs that were paid for with IOU's. The people that are buying into this stuff believe they are being fiscally responsible by cutting social programs to pay for the comforts of the top 1%. The fact is it didn't work before and won't work now. At least the D's admit we need to increase taxes to pay for the mess both parties have created while Romney sticks his fingers in his ears and says "La, La, La - I cant hear you".

[k-fridge]

like the debt is obamas fault, yeah right.
our country went into debt under reagan, it was his presidency where we became a country who was owed money to a country that owed.
no repub has ever cut the gov spending, bush took it to new limits with two unfunded wars and other poor decisions.
considering what obama walked into he is doing pretty well.
economy picking up, more jobs, ending wars and finally fighting for the middle class over rich corporations and the wealthy who get richer and more powerful even during bad economic times.
I think more and more people are finally realizing that.
watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WbQe-wVK9E&feature=youtu.be
I love it when people twist the facts. Here's what really happened;

We were already running a deficit when Reagan came into office, and the economy was in a mess. Reagan correctly proposed that we cut taxes to stimulate the economy (which worked), and he knew that there would have to be some money spent on defense because his predecessors had ran the military down and allowed equipment/weaponry to become dated and fall into disrepair.

So he did what a good administrator does, meet with his "board" and work out a plan to try and address all objectives. He sat down with Tip O'Neil (D) and got an agreement from him for both tax cuts and spending reductions. Specifically, Tip promised $3 of spending cuts for every $1 or tax cuts.

Sounds good, right? Except that congress (that would be a Democratic controlled congress) didn't keep their end of the bargain when it came to spending cuts. In fact, spending grew, rampantly. Admittedly, Reagan did end up signing those budgets, so he shared some responsibility. He did pitch a fit and even shut the government down if I recall, but in the end the Dems won the propaganda war and Reagan caved.

Fact is, tax revenues almost doubled in Reagan's 8 years. Trickle down worked; it put money back into the economy, created jobs, spurred venture capital investment. The near doubling of tax revenues on the back of a recession proves that. The real problem was the same as it is now...congress spends insane amounts of money without regard to our future or who will pay it back. They squander our tax dollars for political power and gain.

You were quick to try and shift the blame to Republicans when Obama was blamed for the current debt and deficits. I'm not here to defend the Republicans, they suck too. But Obama and the Dems are absolutely responsible for DOUBLING our debt in less than 3 years, and the facts show that nothing of substance came from all this money we spent on the Democrats grand social experiment (that has been tried before and failed every time, I might add).


wealthy who get richer and more powerful even during bad economic times.Ironically, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer under the policies of this administration, and the mess mostly created by the mortgage meddling policies of Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Barney Frank, and Chris Dodd. Millions of homes lost by the middle and lower class, and people with money are picking them up for a song so they can sell them at a profit in a few years and get richer. The Dem's policies are shrinking the middle class, and both the rich and poor are growing. To be fair, the Republicans didn't fix the causes of this mess when they had the chance.

So again, Dice, you've spewed partisan propaganda and left out the facts that matter. Both parties are sorry these days, I'm not defending either. But this is Obama's economy now. He promised he would fix it in 3 years or he would not deserve re-election. He hasn't fixed it, it's worse than what he first inherited and still very bad. For all the trillions of our tax dollars he and congress threw away, the economy is no better. Obama is responsible, and he has not earned re-election.

[scrogdog]

Obama enacted the largest piece of "trickle down" legislation ever conceived with his stimulus plan.

So much for supply side myths like only one side does it. In fact, both sides have quite a long history of doing so.

This is not hidden information that you must work to get to.

[Six]

like the debt is obamas fault, yeah right.
our country went into debt under reagan, it was his presidency where we became a country who was owed money to a country that owed.
no repub has ever cut the gov spending, bush took it to new limits with two unfunded wars and other poor decisions.
considering what obama walked into he is doing pretty well.
economy picking up, more jobs, ending wars and finally fighting for the middle class over rich corporations and the wealthy who get richer and more powerful even during bad economic times.
I think more and more people are finally realizing that.
watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WbQe-wVK9E&feature=youtu.be

Wow Obama and his class warfare rhetoric have really roped you guys in. First 5 trillion in new debt and what do we have to show for it ? A worsening economy ( read the latest bi-partisan CBO report ).

Whats our GDP output fir the last 4 years ? Unemployment is high and. would be double digit if over 2 million jobs had not dissappeared from the labor pool.

Hows the housing market doing after 4 years? Its getting worse with real inflation over 10 .They dont include food and energy cost any more in that calculation any more. Hmmmmm...

Gas has doubled not because the evil oil companies but because the dollar is becoming mire and more worthless as the demoxrats borrow and print our way into misery.

And all you have to offer is a you tube video. Nice.

Millions of gullible people bought into the plattitudes and elected the least quallifiedan running and the redt of us are sufffering for it. Thanx.

His Keyensian experiment has failed with trillions of dollars wasted.

He cant even run on his record. He has to manufacture a eat the rich concept as a distraction and you guys eat it up.

Lol....the Buffet rule. You guys understsnd hes fighting the IRS over a billion in taxes owed. Hypocrite. And that he pays less because its tax on dividends.

Funny liberals.


Whats o

[netsalt]

Didn't expect to get the Kool-aid drinkers to change their mind but as you probably know only the rich and the brain washed peasants will vote for Romney this go around. I accept the fact that there are lots of people who will vote against their own best interests but since they are the most vocal the rest of us just have to put up with their blind faith in the rich trickling down on them.

[k-fridge]

Didn't expect to get the Kool-aid drinkers to change their mind but as you probably know only the rich and the brain washed peasants will vote for Romney this go around. I accept the fact that there are lots of people who will vote against their own best interests but since they are the most vocal the rest of us just have to put up with their blind faith in the rich trickling down on them.

I guess you ignored all the facts in my post above. It's just easier for you to throw out terms like "kool aid drinkers" instead of rebutting facts and figures.

Frankly, I don't like Romney. But he's the only viable alternative to Obama, and Obama must go.

[k-fridge]

Obama enacted the largest piece of "trickle down" legislation ever conceived with his stimulus plan.

So much for supply side myths like only one side does it. In fact, both sides have quite a long history of doing so.

This is not hidden information that you must work to get to.

Oh but see...liberals are OK with "trickle down" so long as the government decides who gets the money, and that they can make sure they give it to labor unions, DNC contributors, likely (D) voters, etc.

But to actually allow tax payers to keep some of THEIR OWN money and decide for themselves where to spend it....NOOOOOOOOOOO!

[coolwhip]

Right on K...you go!:cheers:

[netsalt]

I don't hope to sway anyone in your belief that the invisible hand will right all ills but I do know that Romney made his money off the backs of the working man's pensions and that is enough for anyone not born with a trust fund to despise what he stands for.

[k-fridge]

I don't hope to sway anyone in your belief that the invisible hand will right all ills but I do know that Romney made his money off the backs of the working man's pensions and that is enough for anyone not born with a trust fund to despise what he stands for.
As I said, I'm not a Romney fan.


But at least he did have executive experience prior to running for president.


Oh and, he held a real job too. Meaning, something other than a community organizer. :grin2:

Seriously...who would vote for a presidential candidate who has never ran a business, led in management or the military, or even held a private sector job? Someone show me the logic in putting a person with zero practical experience in charge of the world's largest economy.

[geerair]

like the debt is obamas fault, yeah right.
our country went into debt under reagan, it was his presidency where we became a country who was owed money to a country that owed.
no repub has ever cut the gov spending, bush took it to new limits with two unfunded wars and other poor decisions.
considering what obama walked into he is doing pretty well.
economy picking up, more jobs, ending wars and finally fighting for the middle class over rich corporations and the wealthy who get richer and more powerful even during bad economic times.
I think more and more people are finally realizing that.
watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WbQe-wVK9E&feature=youtu.beYeah, the conservlicans like to imagine that the economy and everything was all peaches and cream and warm puppies prior to 1/20/2009.

[geerair]

Obama enacted the largest piece of "trickle down" legislation ever conceived with his stimulus plan.Actually it was a piece of pure Keynesian economics. Public policy enacted to stimulate the economy. Which is precisely what happened.


So much for supply side myths like only one side does it. In fact, both sides have quite a long history of doing so.Trickle down was a purely private sector response which has been a documented failure. See the appalling job losses produced by Bush trickle down policies.

[netsalt]

As I said, I'm not a Romney fan.


But at least he did have executive experience prior to running for president.


Oh and, he held a real job too. Meaning, something other than a community organizer. :grin2:

Seriously...who would vote for a presidential candidate who has never ran a business, led in management or the military, or even held a private sector job? Someone show me the logic in putting a person with zero practical experience in charge of the world's largest economy.

I agree the choices are limited but then again who would want to vote for a guy with extensive business experience in closing businesses and firing people after looting the corporate bank account. Seems like a recipe for disaster when applied to a national economy.

[WebCTRL]

I love it when people twist the facts. Here's what really happened;

We were already running a deficit when Reagan came into office, and the economy was in a mess. Reagan correctly proposed that we cut taxes to stimulate the economy (which worked), and he knew that there would have to be some money spent on defense because his predecessors had ran the military down and allowed equipment/weaponry to become dated and fall into disrepair.

So he did what a good administrator does, meet with his "board" and work out a plan to try and address all objectives. He sat down with Tip O'Neil (D) and got an agreement from him for both tax cuts and spending reductions. Specifically, Tip promised $3 of spending cuts for every $1 or tax cuts.

Sounds good, right? Except that congress (that would be a Democratic controlled congress) didn't keep their end of the bargain when it came to spending cuts. In fact, spending grew, rampantly. Admittedly, Reagan did end up signing those budgets, so he shared some responsibility. He did pitch a fit and even shut the government down if I recall, but in the end the Dems won the propaganda war and Reagan caved.

Fact is, tax revenues almost doubled in Reagan's 8 years. Trickle down worked; it put money back into the economy, created jobs, spurred venture capital investment. The near doubling of tax revenues on the back of a recession proves that. The real problem was the same as it is now...congress spends insane amounts of money without regard to our future or who will pay it back. They squander our tax dollars for political power and gain.

You were quick to try and shift the blame to Republicans when Obama was blamed for the current debt and deficits. I'm not here to defend the Republicans, they suck too. But Obama and the Dems are absolutely responsible for DOUBLING our debt in less than 3 years, and the facts show that nothing of substance came from all this money we spent on the Democrats grand social experiment (that has been tried before and failed every time, I might add).

Ironically, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer under the policies of this administration, and the mess mostly created by the mortgage meddling policies of Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Barney Frank, and Chris Dodd. Millions of homes lost by the middle and lower class, and people with money are picking them up for a song so they can sell them at a profit in a few years and get richer. The Dem's policies are shrinking the middle class, and both the rich and poor are growing. To be fair, the Republicans didn't fix the causes of this mess when they had the chance.

So again, Dice, you've spewed partisan propaganda and left out the facts that matter. Both parties are sorry these days, I'm not defending either. But this is Obama's economy now. He promised he would fix it in 3 years or he would not deserve re-election. He hasn't fixed it, it's worse than what he first inherited and still very bad. For all the trillions of our tax dollars he and congress threw away, the economy is no better. Obama is responsible, and he has not earned re-election.

Great Post.

But when providing facts to some such as our Obama supporters on this thread, facts are meaningless to them. When confronted with the facts rebutting their emotional responses and rhetoric, they change the subject or start arguing louder. Isn't that the playbook?

Anyway, nice job. And maybe it at least will be read by some who have an open mind.

[k-fridge]

Actually it was a piece of pure Keynesian economics. Public policy enacted to stimulate the economy. Which is precisely what happened.

Trickle down was a purely private sector response which has been a documented failure. See the appalling job losses produced by Bush trickle down policies.

The biggest difference in trickle down and Keynesian policy is who spends the money and decides where it goes.

In Keynesian, the government spends the money and decides where it goes, who gets it, etc. And I will point out that the theory calls for borrowed funds to be paid back once there is a recovery. That never happens, congress just spends more.

In Trickle Down, individuals are allowed to keep more of their own tax dollars, so they are empowered to decide when and where the money is spent.

I know which one I trust.

[scrogdog]

Actually it was a piece of pure Keynesian economics. Public policy enacted to stimulate the economy. Which is precisely what happened.

Trickle down was a purely private sector response which has been a documented failure. See the appalling job losses produced by Bush trickle down policies.

I don't disagree that proper application is needed. Neither side has shown themselves to be particularly good at it I'm afraid but I also recognize that it can be a difficult call to make.

The point is, economic policies are not partisan. Both sides have equal opportunity to affect either supply or demand, and both sides have done both. So, the idea that one side does one thing and another side the opposite is a myth of epic proportion.

This idea leads us to some unfortunate conclusions like those people who claim that Bush tax cuts were supply side policies.

Say what?

But it is assumed that they must be simply because its the GOP and Bush.

This false perception needs to go away in my opinion.

[jmac00]

like the debt is obamas fault, yeah right.
our country went into debt under reagan, it was his presidency where we became a country who was owed money to a country that owed.
no repub has ever cut the gov spending, bush took it to new limits with two unfunded wars and other poor decisions.
considering what obama walked into he is doing pretty well.
economy picking up, more jobs, ending wars and finally fighting for the middle class over rich corporations and the wealthy who get richer and more powerful even during bad economic times.
I think more and more people are finally realizing that.
watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WbQe-wVK9E&feature=youtu.be

:grin2::grin2:

[AStudent]

People tend to have very short term memories, especially when it comes to politics....who here remembers Bush's approval rating? Somewhere around 14% I believe.

I'm not saying ALL of our economic troubles are due to Bush and I'm not saying it's ALL Obama's fault either...cause it's not....but money spent in war is money lost, whereas money spent at home is money kept at home. Even entitlements as some people like to call them are partially paid back to the system through consumption tax....even the non taxed portion of goods bought with entitlements go to businesses that pay taxes..but the media rarely mentions this...they just spew about how much entitlements cost upfront.

[WebCTRL]

People tend to have very short term memories, especially when it comes to politics....who here remembers Bush's approval rating? Somewhere around 14% I believe.

I'm not saying ALL of our economic troubles are due to Bush and I'm not saying it's ALL Obama's fault either...cause it's not....but money spent in war is money lost, whereas money spent at home is money kept at home. Even entitlements as some people like to call them are partially paid back to the system through consumption tax....even the non taxed portion of goods bought with entitlements go to businesses that pay taxes..but the media rarely mentions this...they just spew about how much entitlements cost upfront.

I think your logic is flawed in this argument, but first of all Bush's lowest approval was about 29% soon after signing the TARP bailout, but I digress.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-presapp0605-31.html

I would like to see your statistics for how all war time money spending is money lost, I mean most of the spending is to American Companies right, to the troops. So some of the money returns to the US and kept withiin our economy. I'm not saying that their isn't waste and money that's lost but it certainly isn't all lost as you indicate. I'm also not saying we should even be in most places that we are, but I can't buy in to your logic on ALL wartime spending.

Then there is entitlement costs, as we know, much of that cost is medicare/medicaid, welfare and Social Security but how does the tax from this spending pay itself back? I'd like to see the math, so please show some source links on it.

[netsalt]

Upon leaving office the W's approval rating was 22%. Cheney's was 13%. And we all know who ran the show.

[coolperfect]

Let's see what happens at 8:30 AM last months job numbers will be out. Keep in mind the expections have been lowered!

[tunnel_rat]

A

[tunnel_rat]

A scallop could beat Obama, with it's shell tied behind it's back. People who care about this country just need to put down the cheetos and diet cokes and get off their collective butts for an hour or so and VOTE. Remember voting? There are far more reasonable people in this country than whacked out Liberals and commies. It should be a slam dunk every 4 yrs.

[Six]

Didn't expect to get the Kool-aid drinkers to change their mind but as you probably know only the rich and the brain washed peasants will vote for Romney this go around. I accept the fact that there are lots of people who will vote against their own best interests but since they are the most vocal the rest of us just have to put up with their blind faith in the rich trickling down on them.

Have you taken a look at that CBO report yet ? The average GDP growth over the last
4 years ? The drop in the dollar and the rise if precious metals ? There is a corellation your missing.

It doesn' t bother you that Obama's using and manufacturing class warfare because he cant run on his accomplishments ?

Can you name a Obama accomplishment ?
The liberals I debate with like to bring up GM when pressed for accomplishments. Yes Obama takes care of his campaign contributors and campaign bundlers. GM still owes the American people 38 billion.

[Gib's Son]

Since the lefties like to bring up Bush so much: Bush got us 4 trillion of debt in 8 years; mostly in his second term under Queen Nancy.

Obama has got us another 5+ trillion in debt in less than 4. You figure it out.

[Gib's Son]

GM still owes the American people 38 billion.

Yeah, float any company 50 billion, even Solyndra would still be in business.

[prorefco]

In the hospital the relatives gathered in the waiting room, where a family member lay gravely ill. Finally, the doctor came in looking tired and somber.

'I'm afraid I'm the bearer of bad news,' he said as he surveyed the worried faces. 'The only hope left for your loved one at this time is a brain transplant. It's an experimental procedure, very risky, but it is the only hope. Insurance will cover the procedure, but you will have to pay for the BRAIN.'

The family members sat silent as they absorbed the news. After a time, someone asked, 'How much will a brain cost?'

The doctor quickly responded, '$5,000 for a Democrat's brain; $200 for a Republican's brain.'

The moment turned awkward. Some of the Democrats actually had to 'try' to not smile, avoiding eye contact with the Republicans. A man unable to control his curiosity, finally blurted out the question everyone wanted to ask, 'Why is the Democrats brain so much more than a Republicans brain?'

The doctor smiled at the childish innocence and explained to the entire group, 'It's just standard pricing procedure. We have to price the Republicans' brains a lot lower because they've actually been used."

[Gib's Son]

In the hospital the relatives gathered in the waiting room, where a family member lay gravely ill. Finally, the doctor came in looking tired and somber.

'I'm afraid I'm the bearer of bad news,' he said as he surveyed the worried faces. 'The only hope left for your loved one at this time is a brain transplant. It's an experimental procedure, very risky, but it is the only hope. Insurance will cover the procedure, but you will have to pay for the BRAIN.'

The family members sat silent as they absorbed the news. After a time, someone asked, 'How much will a brain cost?'

The doctor quickly responded, '$5,000 for a Democrat's brain; $200 for a Republican's brain.'

The moment turned awkward. Some of the Democrats actually had to 'try' to not smile, avoiding eye contact with the Republicans. A man unable to control his curiosity, finally blurted out the question everyone wanted to ask, 'Why is the Democrats brain so much more than a Republicans brain?'

The doctor smiled at the childish innocence and explained to the entire group, 'It's just standard pricing procedure. We have to price the Republicans' brains a lot lower because they've actually been used."

Good one.

[jmac00]

ya, that about covers it

[prorefco]

ya, that about covers it

I just stole both of those...

[netsalt]

Let's see what happens at 8:30 AM last months job numbers will be out. Keep in mind the expections have been lowered!

Job growth slow and steady - not as much as some would like but going in the right direction. It will take a long time to recoup the 32 Trillion dollar hit the US took due to lost wages/jobs in the 00's.

[coolperfect]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-04/payrolls-in-u-s-rose-115-000-in-april-jobless-rate-at-8-1-.html The job report came in light business hates this guy! The earning season is almost over,and for the most part it is very good.Business has money but won't hire!

[Six]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-04/payrolls-in-u-s-rose-115-000-in-april-jobless-rate-at-8-1-.html The job report came in light business hates this guy! The earning season is almost over,and for the most part it is very good.Business has money but won't hire!



Read it again. Even bloomberg admits its because if a shrinking job sector. How can there be job growth when availabe positions have shrunk ny 2 million.

[coolperfect]

Read it again. Even bloomberg admits its because if a shrinking job sector. How can there be job growth when availabe positions have shrunk ny 2 million.
Really is that why my stocks are down 15k today!

[Six]

You guys focus on that one stat without bring up things like GDP and consumet confidence and a shrinking jobs sector.

Of course companies are holding back money. They know whos in office. How can they make long term fiscal plans including hiring when they have no idea what this moron is going to do tax wise and health care wise. Implimentation of Obama care alone has confidence shaken among larger companies.

[Six]

Really is that why my stocks are down 15k today!

What does your stocks have to do with a blind allegiance among Obama supporters ? Most likely in response to a poor jobs report.

[netsalt]

Since corporations are holding ALOT of cash off the table cutting the corporate tax rate and reducing the taxes on the top 10% will put MORE cash in their pocket so they will create jobs with all the extra cash












- oh wait














- nevermind.
:grin2:

[coolperfect]

What does your stocks have to do with a blind allegiance among Obama supporters ? Most likely in response to a poor jobs report. It has everything to do with his supporters! The market hates uncertainty,and that is what we have at this point after almost 4 years.I would not be surprised if we get another bad report or two the market would rally, it would seal his fate. Oh and over and above the jobs, the ISM manufacturing number was off the other day!

[ControlsInMT]

Hang on a minute...wish I could find that report...didn't I read somewhere that the reason the job market was improving was because they just quit counting some of the unemployed?

Could be wrong on that...would be the second time today! hahahah

[ControlsInMT]

Not to mention the fact that we are starting into "seasonal" workers time of year...

It was on yahoonews.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/120k-jobs-added-april-unemployment-rate-8-1-123323218.html

Quit counting the unemployed because they quit looking for work. Nice. More handouts.....

[Six]

ALowest job participation rate right since 1981.

[WebCTRL]

Since corporations are holding ALOT of cash off the table cutting the corporate tax rate and reducing the taxes on the top 10% will put MORE cash in their pocket so they will create jobs with all the extra cash












- oh wait














- nevermind.
:grin2:

That's right, nobody is willing to invest or spend in real business or real jobs with a dictator in charge. You hit that nail right on the head nutsalt.

[corny]

Not to mention the fact that we are starting into "seasonal" workers time of year...

It was on yahoonews.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/120k-jobs-added-april-unemployment-rate-8-1-123323218.html

Quit counting the unemployed because they quit looking for work. Nice. More handouts.....

Well... What they dont count are the people who stop coming into the unemployment office looking for work or benefits. These could be people who have just given up trying or folks who have found work under the table.....but its mostly people who just quit trying.

It really doesnt skew the numbers much because it has been standard procedure to count this way for quite some time.

Just another trick the government has up its sleeve.

[netsalt]

That's right, nobody is willing to invest or spend in real business or real jobs with a dictator in charge. You hit that nail right on the head nutsalt.

The problem is demand. The only solution the far right has is to throw money at the problem as they perceive it - give more money to the job creators so they will create wealth for the masses by providing them with employment - that whole "I never got a job from a poor man" tripe. Good luck with that. Keep in mind our economy is consumer driven and without demand there is no need to invest in equipment or personnel, money will continue to chase profits in the financial sector leaving the rest of us out in the cold. By the way a "real" dictator could make the trains run on time and Obama can't even get these TEA governors to take money to build passenger rail .

[ControlsInMT]

Hasn't Obama thrown enough money at things?????

[WebCTRL]

The problem is demand. The only solution the far right has is to throw money at the problem as they perceive it - give more money to the job creators so they will create wealth for the masses by providing them with employment - that whole "I never got a job from a poor man" tripe. Good luck with that. Keep in mind our economy is consumer driven and without demand there is no need to invest in equipment or personnel, money will continue to chase profits in the financial sector leaving the rest of us out in the cold. By the way a "real" dictator could make the trains run on time and Obama can't even get these TEA governors to take money to build passenger rail .

Go back to the Republican platform you posted from, it talks about middle and lower class tax cuts and tax cuts for small business, not the big only businesses. That's what we all say, give the money to the spenders, give incentive to small business to grow and hire, cut fed gov't, cut spending and reduce the debt. It's easy!

It can't be demand only, because you will never have demand if we the people have nothing to get it with, we're broke and our $ is worth less under Oblama. I can demand and want all kinds of things but until this country gets out of debt and we can keep some of our money and grow our businesses, we're screwed. Our economy is consumer driven only when us consumers have jobs, profitable business and a strong dollar value to purchase with. Otherwise it driver-less or driven by the State!

And, yeah, your right, Obama pretty much sucks at everything he does except coming off as a very arrogant elitest who seems to lie to the American People.

[corny]

snip

And, yeah, your right, Obama pretty much sucks at everything he does except coming off as a very arrogant elitest who seems to lie to the American People.


Has there ever been an american president who wasnt an elitest who lied to the people...besides Carter that is....

[dec]

like the debt is obamas fault, yeah right.
our country went into debt under reagan, it was his presidency where we became a country who was owed money to a country that owed.
no repub has ever cut the gov spending, bush took it to new limits with two unfunded wars and other poor decisions.
considering what obama walked into he is doing pretty well.
economy picking up, more jobs, ending wars and finally fighting for the middle class over rich corporations and the wealthy who get richer and more powerful even during bad economic times.
I think more and more people are finally realizing that.
watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WbQe-wVK9E&feature=youtu.be

Found a clip of Dice singing , well at least you can sing ....... and are willing to admit your problem http://movieclips.com/gCujE-the-wizard-of-oz-movie-if-i-only-had-a-brain/ :grin2::grin2::grin2:

oh ya and stay away from matches :.02:

[AStudent]

We can blame whoever we want but it won't change a thing until we get up and decide to do something about it.

I don't understand how anyone thinks our country can continue to run under ANY president. Capitalism is accompanied by massive inflation, inflation requires more currency, the more a currency is printed the less it is worth.

Under capitalism we will always want more things, and higher salaries, and more more more until we've ran the dollar into the dirt.

Sure Capitalism is great to strengthen an economy for short term gains, but not so great for the long term as inflation dictates.

[prorefco]

We can blame whoever we want but it won't change a thing until we get up and decide to do something about it.

I don't understand how anyone thinks our country can continue to run under ANY president. Capitalism is accompanied by massive inflation, inflation requires more currency, the more a currency is printed the less it is worth.

Under capitalism we will always want more things, and higher salaries, and more more more until we've ran the dollar into the dirt.

Sure Capitalism is great to strengthen an economy for short term gains, but not so great for the long term as inflation dictates.

So, what do you suggest?? Socialism, communism, nazi rule??? If that's what you want, there's plenty of other countries that are awaiting your arival...

[AStudent]

So, what do you suggest?? Socialism, communism, nazi rule??? If that's what you want, there's plenty of other countries that are awaiting your arival...

I don't have a suggestion, as I'm not a professional economist, all I know is it's not hard to see that whether it be 5 years from now or 100, eventually we will not be able to control inflation and it will leave us at rock bottom.

Unless of course we conquer the world...which brings a new light to our ever expanding military.

[prorefco]

I don't have a suggestion, as I'm not a professional economist, all I know is it's not hard to see that whether it be 5 years from now or 100, eventually we will not be able to control inflation and it will leave us at rock bottom.

If you truly believe capitalism will cause this, you really should lay off the koolaid. You obviously believe what the main stream media spews out there...

[AStudent]

If you truly believe capitalism will cause this, you really should lay off the koolaid. You obviously believe what the main stream media spews out there...

So you don't believe that under capitalism we are constantly craving to buy something? Whether it be a new house, car, the newest Iphone?

With all these purchases you will eventually need a bigger salary correct? So minimum wage goes up because of our wants of more, and what happens when everyone in the country gets a raise? We have to print more money because there is simply not enough to go around...so the value is lowered. Through capitalism this is a never ending process.

Have you looked at the currency exchange rate recently?

[coolperfect]

Our system does work! The problem is we have a jerk that wants to keep putting his fingers in the pie! Inflation,too much money chasing too few goods and services.The fed controls it by changing the intrest rates.Let's say your boss has to borrow money to buy a building and a few trucks,instead of a 5% loan the rate is 13%,will that not affect the raise you get.If you buy a car and the rates are higher, that is money you can't spend on other stuff.Inflation is not a problem now,with high unemployment we have a lot of people who can't spend.Except when we buy oil from the Arabs a weak dollar is good for us.If a farmer in Italy wants to buy a tractor,it is cheaper to buy it from us,rather than one made in his own country.

[prorefco]

So you don't believe that under capitalism we are constantly craving to buy something? Whether it be a new house, car, the newest Iphone?

With all these purchases you will eventually need a bigger salary correct? So minimum wage goes up because of our wants of more, and what happens when everyone in the country gets a raise? We have to print more money because there is simply not enough to go around...so the value is lowered. Through capitalism this is a never ending process.

Have you looked at the currency exchange rate recently?

I don't understand the "craving to buy something" you speak of. I don't have an IPhone, whatever that is, nor do I want to buy one. If you have a need to keep up with the Jone's but don't have the money to, then make yourself more productive in your job, get a better paying job, or too bad, no iphone for you. I just don't see the problem.

Secondly, people need to learn how credit for "all these purchases" works. Simply put, you don't buy something on credit that you can't afford. Period. Anyone that does that needs to be punished, no matter what type of government is in place. And NO, the dot-gov should not be bailing out people who made such stupid foolish decisions.

Thirdly, there should be no government mandated minimum wage. The .gov should keep their hands out of private business. If they did, there would be lots of jobs available and people would become more self sufficient.

So again, if socialism works sooooo well, why isn't everybody migrating to Russia, Europe, India, etc??? And if capitalism os soooo bad, is it that so much of the rest of the world wants to migrate here??

Keep on drinking that koolaid kid... It'll cause permanent damage nto your eyesight....

[AStudent]

I don't understand the "craving to buy something" you speak of. I don't have an IPhone, whatever that is, nor do I want to buy one. If you have a need to keep up with the Jone's but don't have the money to, then make yourself more productive in your job, get a better paying job, or too bad, no iphone for you. I just don't see the problem.

Secondly, people need to learn how credit for "all these purchases" works. Simply put, you don't buy something on credit that you can't afford. Period. Anyone that does that needs to be punished, no matter what type of government is in place. And NO, the dot-gov should not be bailing out people who made such stupid foolish decisions.

Thirdly, there should be no government mandated minimum wage. The .gov should keep their hands out of private business. If they did, there would be lots of jobs available and people would become more self sufficient.

So again, if socialism works sooooo well, why isn't everybody migrating to Russia, Europe, India, etc??? And if capitalism os soooo bad, is it that so much of the rest of the world wants to migrate here??

Keep on drinking that koolaid kid... It'll cause permanent damage nto your eyesight....

We definitely have a craving in this country to buy more, just because you don't see it does not mean it isn't there.

Your statement is exactly what I'm trying to get through to you. Get a paying better job you say? Sure...and then when I do this who is going to raise their prices? My company...and when they do that the customers need a better paying job and their company raises prices...then their customers need a better paying job...and everyone has a better paying job due to high prices.

So how do we make up for everyone having a higher paying job? We print more money...economics 101 says that the more you print the less it's worth. The problem now is that we are both borrowing and printing.

If you enjoy other countries paying for your Big Macs then by all means, stay in love with our economics.

[dec]

We definitely have a craving in this country to buy more, just because you don't see it does not mean it isn't there.

Your statement is exactly what I'm trying to get through to you. Get a paying better job you say? Sure...and then when I do this who is going to raise their prices? My company...and when they do that the customers need a better paying job and their company raises prices...then their customers need a better paying job...and everyone has a better paying job due to high prices.

So how do we make up for everyone having a higher paying job? We print more money...economics 101 says that the more you print the less it's worth. The problem now is that we are both borrowing and printing.

If you enjoy other countries paying for your Big Macs then by all means, stay in love with our economics.

I see where it says you are a full time student ....... that kind of tells it all. And I take it you feel you are owed every thing in life. Thats what I want , an employee that does not beleive in capitalism.:gah: If I had someone working for me that looked at it that way , it would not take me too long to find a reason to let him go ......... ahhhh things have slowed down a little ( even tho its just till your gone :grin2: )
Think you need to wise up at all you have learned from your liberal teachers ...... most of them have their heads screwed on backwords and the saying of its all about the kids is really ... Were gonna keep saying we need money so we can keep raising our pay, retirment benifits, and healthcare.

Go ahead and follow their ideas ........... your the one thats going to be setting there years from now paying off what has been borrowed for years under the idea that you can think for yourself you need the government to do it for you.

Full time student ..... ya and I bet you have debt on school loans to prove it.:grin2:

[prorefco]

No other country is paying for anything for me... ANd I don't buy big macs....

As far as the cravings go, get a life... If you can't afford something you want then too bad, cry me a river... You have the right and opportunity to free enterprise... If you choose not to utilize it, who's fault is that?? I am sick & tired of the .gov robbing me and all the other productive hard working people out there just so that some lazy *&^% *$#^%&^ out there can get fat on our dime...

I really think Russia would be a great place for all those who seem to hate capitalism....

[coolperfect]

Yea,and the more you buy and the more you earn the more tax you pay=less need to print money and more jobs= more spent more jobs more tex paid less printing and on and on!

[AStudent]

I see where it says you are a full time student ....... that kind of tells it all. And I take it you feel you are owed every thing in life. Thats what I want , an employee that does not beleive in capitalism.:gah: If I had someone working for me that looked at it that way , it would not take me too long to find a reason to let him go ......... ahhhh things have slowed down a little ( even tho its just till your gone :grin2: )
Think you need to wise up at all you have learned from your liberal teachers ...... most of them have their heads screwed on backwords and the saying of its all about the kids is really ... Were gonna keep saying we need money so we can keep raising our pay, retirment benifits, and healthcare.

Go ahead and follow their ideas ........... your the one thats going to be setting there years from now paying off what has been borrowed for years under the idea that you can think for yourself you need the government to do it for you.

Full time student ..... ya and I bet you have debt on school loans to prove it.:grin2:

I've worked jobs since I was 15, worked for my parents before that, only been a full time student for the past two years and do not believe anyone owes me anything. As far as you not hiring me because of my belief system that says it all....just because I believe a system is failing does not mean that I won't work hard. So you hire employees based on their belief system and not how hard they work? How American is that?

[Space Racer]

The problem with our nation isn't capitalism. Capitalism works fine. Capitalism is what made us a great and successful nation.

The problem is crony capitalism. Too many people in government use our current tax system to grant and withhold favors, and to further their own careers.

Bureacracy and regulation have grown to the point where they prevent honest people from going into business for themselves, while encouraging criminals to beat the system. When government keeps things simple, citizens strive to better themselves in accordance with the law. When it gets complicated, people look for simpler ways.

For some, this means cheating the system. And if they're going to cheat, there had better be a profit in it.

[AStudent]

Yea,and the more you buy and the more you earn the more tax you pay=less need to print money and more jobs= more spent more jobs more tex paid less printing and on and on!

I understand what you are saying, but just because we pay higher taxes does not mean there is a need for less paper money. Someone somewhere has those paper bills in their pocket regardless of if it's in your pocket or in the governments.

[dec]

I understand what you are saying, but just because we pay higher taxes does not mean there is a need for less paper money. Someone somewhere has those paper bills in their pocket regardless of if it's in your pocket or in the governments.

Ya that comment really tells how well you understand :gah:

[AStudent]

Ya that comment really tells how well you understand :gah:

Enlighten me then....I want to learn.

[Six]

We definitely have a craving in this country to buy more, just because you don't see it does not mean it isn't there.

Your statement is exactly what I'm trying to get through to you. Get a paying better job you say? Sure...and then when I do this who is going to raise their prices? My company...and when they do that the customers need a better paying job and their company raises prices...then their customers need a better paying job...and everyone has a better paying job due to high prices.

So how do we make up for everyone having a higher paying job? We print more money...economics 101 says that the more you print the less it's worth. The problem now is that we are both borrowing and printing.

If you enjoy other countries paying for your Big Macs then by all means, stay in love with our economics.


We are printing and borrowing massive amounts of money now to perpetuate a Keynesian approach to addressing a recession. a Keynesian approach to bolster a anemic economy is to have the public sector flood the private sector with money in a hope to spur economic growth.

It makes no effort to address why the economy has taken a nose dive or address the specific supply and demand aspects that drive a capitalistic economy.

The primary problem with it is that our dear leader Obama and his cronies have no money to give. A government must take money out of the private sector in order to redistribute it back into the economy. Unfortunately partisan ideologies get in the way preventing any money that's taken to be doled out responsibly. ( if that's possible )

see Solyndra or the first stimulus under Obama for an example.

If they cant take enough of it then they'll print it. Since in a few years our Nations biggest annual expense will be paying back interest on Treasury bills ( 40 % OF OUR TOTAL GDP ) now we are effectively monetizing our debt.

Paper money really doesn't mean much especially in our current electronic banking system. Money is a fluid concept with most of the worlds wealth represented in binary form.

If you gathered up all the paper money in the world it wouldn't come close to equaling the total wealth of every individual on the planet.


Prices for goods and services are market driven based on the fundamental aspects of supply and demand.

That's eco 101.

Eventually what should be done is for the Fed to raise interest rates to try and get that money out of circulation. Raising interest rates is one of the ways to address inflation which we are currently dealing with.


Broad brushing Capitalism as a failed system because people are struggling is a bit naive.

Is Greece a Capitalist society ????


You want lower prices with higher wages and lower unemployment numbers with more tax's being generated lower top marginal rates for people that invest, lower Capital gains tax's and lower tax's on corporations that hire people like us.

[coolperfect]

You know this thread reminds me of a guy at the supply house , Boris. In Russia he worked at a company who made refrigerators.Well the way told it is this..Every morning over half the people would come in drunk.His main job was to make sure no one fall asleep,because if this happened the plant would come to a halt. And there is a big difference between higher taxes and more tax money!

[AStudent]

I get what you guys are saying and thanks for your input...but I'm not talking about right now...I'm not talking about bad economic times, I'm referring to history, and future. I'm not saying we should be communists, but we do need to change something.

You say capitalism works? Then why is our dollar value constantly shrinking? Give me an answer as to why one dollar now is worth roughly 7 dollars less than it was 52 years ago, or why the dollar is worth roughly 13 dollars less than it was 72 years ago?

There is simply more currency floating around now than there was back in the 40's and 60's.

As you can see...the shrinking dollar is not new, it's been going on for almost a century now and to say it's because of Obama is just ridiculous.

[coolperfect]

:gah:
I get what you guys are saying and thanks for your input...but I'm not talking about right now...I'm not talking about bad economic times, I'm referring to history, and future. I'm not saying we should be communists, but we do need to change something.

You say capitalism works? Then why is our dollar value constantly shrinking? Give me an answer as to why one dollar now is worth roughly 7 dollars less than it was 52 years ago, or why the dollar is worth roughly 13 dollars less than it was 72 years ago?

There is simply more currency floating around now than there was back in the 40's and 60's.

As you can see...the shrinking dollar is not new, it's been going on for almost a century now and to say it's because of Obama is just ridiculous. And 600 years ago I could have bought manhattan for $24 ,I want the same deal!:whistle:

[prorefco]

I get what you guys are saying and thanks for your input...but I'm not talking about right now...I'm not talking about bad economic times, I'm referring to history, and future. I'm not saying we should be communists, but we do need to change something.

You say capitalism works? Then why is our dollar value constantly shrinking? Give me an answer as to why one dollar now is worth roughly 7 dollars less than it was 52 years ago, or why the dollar is worth roughly 13 dollars less than it was 72 years ago?There is simply more currency floating around now than there was back in the 40's and 60's.

As you can see...the shrinking dollar is not new, it's been going on for almost a century now and to say it's because of Obama is just ridiculous.

Did you mean to say 7% 13% and 72% less??

[Six]

I get what you guys are saying and thanks for your input...but I'm not talking about right now...I'm not talking about bad economic times, I'm referring to history, and future. I'm not saying we should be communists, but we do need to change something.

You say capitalism works? Then why is our dollar value constantly shrinking? Give me an answer as to why one dollar now is worth roughly 7 dollars less than it was 52 years ago, or why the dollar is worth roughly 13 dollars less than it was 72 years ago?

There is simply more currency floating around now than there was back in the 40's and 60's.

As you can see...the shrinking dollar is not new, it's been going on for almost a century now and to say it's because of Obama is just ridiculous.


The dollar has declined over the last 100 or so years primarily because we and other Countries moved off a hard currency system to a Fiat currency.

I said earlier that money is a "concept". The only things giving Fiat currency real value is its availability ( too much in circulation causes inflation ) and the faith in who ever issues it.

It was the only way for Countries us included to pay for massive endeavors like WW1 and WW2.

That doesn't mean things became more expensive unless inflation was an issue it just means that the scale moved.

Lately the fall of the worth of our dollar has to do with massive public sector debt ( printing, borrowing, etc ) and a massive US trade gap.

Monetary policy in the US is controlled by the Federal Reserve System (12 private Banks ) that are also responsible for setting interest rates and controlling the amount of money released onto the private sector.

The Fed is also the US gov't banker and the US military's Banker.

Obama has contributed 5 trillion to our National Debt and was responsible for the selection of Fed Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke.

If he's going to be our leader then he needs to act like one and take responsibility for his appointments.

Keynesian economics preaches to flood the market with cash to jump start an economy.

It hasn't had that effect, in fact its had the opposite. Higher inflation and the fall of the US dollar in value causes the cost of goods and services to rise.


Its one of the main reasons oil has jumped to almost twice the price it was when he was inaugurated. Oil goes up EVERYTHING goes up.

You couple that with inflation, massive unemployment with backwards policies for creating new job growth and you have Obama's presidency in a nut shell.

Because of the sub-prime (debacle)...dont get me started...and knee jerk legislation passed after wards it is very difficult to get a loan.


The loss of credit is what perpetuated the great depression and now its worse. Look into the Dodd Frank Wall Street Reform Act.

[the mojo]

I get what you guys are saying and thanks for your input...but I'm not talking about right now...I'm not talking about bad economic times, I'm referring to history, and future. I'm not saying we should be communists, but we do need to change something.

You say capitalism works? Then why is our dollar value constantly shrinking? Give me an answer as to why one dollar now is worth roughly 7 dollars less than it was 52 years ago, or why the dollar is worth roughly 13 dollars less than it was 72 years ago?

There is simply more currency floating around now than there was back in the 40's and 60's.

As you can see...the shrinking dollar is not new, it's been going on for almost a century now and to say it's because of Obama is just ridiculous.

In 2008 we had about 800 billion in circulation. Today we have about 2.8 trillion in circulation. That my friend is Quantitative Easing. Currency debasement with 21% government spending.And a larger portion of government expansion. You are not in a true capitalism based free market,we a in crony capitalism,consumer based with too damn much interference by the federal government.

[coolperfect]

In 2008 we had about 800 billion in circulation. Today we have about 2.8 trillion in circulation. That my friend is Quantitative Easing. Currency debasement with 21% government spending.And a larger portion of government expansion. You are not in a true capitalism based free market,we a in crony capitalism,consumer based with too damn much interference by the federal government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing I don't think it's so bad!

[jmac00]

I don't have a suggestion, as I'm not a professional economist, all I know is it's not hard to see that whether it be 5 years from now or 100, eventually we will not be able to control inflation and it will leave us at rock bottom.

Unless of course we conquer the world...which brings a new light to our ever expanding military.

Im confused here? You think Capitalism is the wrong path and will eventually lead to our destruction, then you confess your have no idea what your talking about and have no solution to, what you perceive as, a problem.

If you have no idea what your talking about, why are you even commenting?

seriously, if Capitalism is a problem, shouldn't you be looking for somewhere else to live?

[jmac00]

here, take some of this, it might help

[prorefco]

here, take some of this, it might help

I just stole that picture...

[AStudent]

Im confused here? You think Capitalism is the wrong path and will eventually lead to our destruction, then you confess your have no idea what your talking about and have no solution to, what you perceive as, a problem.

If you have no idea what your talking about, why are you even commenting?

seriously, if Capitalism is a problem, shouldn't you be looking for somewhere else to live?

If my family wasn't here I would be gone...this country has gone off the deep end, and no one takes responsibility for their actions anymore. We have everyone blaming the "other" party for everything happening when really it's been both parties screwing everything up for decades.

I love this country, I was raised to be patriotic, and would love nothing more than for America to come out of this downward spiral but I was also raised to do what's right...and blaming everyone else but yourself is not doing the right thing.

[jmac00]

If my family wasn't here I would be gone...this country has gone off the deep end, and no one takes responsibility for their actions anymore. We have everyone blaming the "other" party for everything happening when really it's been both parties screwing everything up for decades.

I love this country, I was raised to be patriotic, and would love nothing more than for America to come out of this downward spiral but I was also raised to do what's right...and blaming everyone else but yourself is not doing the right thing.

so instead of getting involved and coming up with a solution, your answer is to bail out.

Nothing says Patriotic like running :patriot:

so lets go the other way. Serious question? What economic/political systems have you seen in the last 500 years that HAVE WORKED
If you can come up with a better system than Capitalism, your about to get the Nobel Peace Price for Economics:cheers:

[barbar]

so instead of getting involved and coming up with a solution, your answer is to bail out.

Nothing says Patriotic like running :patriot:

so lets go the other way. Serious question? What economic/political systems have you seen in the last 500 years that HAVE WORKED
If you can come up with a better system than Capitalism, your about to get the Nobel Peace Price for Economics:cheers:
Can you please explained "WORKED"
The world spins regardless, so all systems work.

[jmac00]

Can you please explained "WORKED"
The world spins regardless, so all systems work.

ok, a system that has given the common man/women an opportunity to succeed with as little interference from government.

[barbar]

ok, a system that has given the common man/women an opportunity to succeed with as little interference from government.
Well written
"a system that has given the common man/women an opportunity to succeed".

That part of the statement, i certainly can agree with, the method is where the arguments lie.

If we look at Sweden for example as close to being communist, without being communist, Freedom is still available to the people (to change the govt)
They have high standard living, some very wealthy people, but lots of govt intervention. This system works because the people of Sweden show social responsibility. They trade with the world, so also show maintain some level of capitalism.

[Six]

Well written
"a system that has given the common man/women an opportunity to succeed".

That part of the statement, i certainly can agree with, the method is where the arguments lie.

If we look at Sweden for example as close to being communist, without being communist, Freedom is still available to the people (to change the govt)
They have high standard living, some very wealthy people, but lots of govt intervention. This system works because the people of Sweden show social responsibility. They trade with the world, so also show maintain some level of capitalism.

I don't see the appeal for a massive nanny state, for an intrusive bureaucracy and punitive tax's.

Its a popular ideology to the younger people and professors isolated in university settings but given a choice most Americans want a limited government with powers enumerated by our constitution.

Sweden claims to perfection are highly exaggerated. Their tax rate of 50 % plus a VAT of over 20% means that every dollar you earn, 70% goes to the government.

Does that sound like a good idea ??

The system "working" is subjective. Their unemployed are usually hidden in state sponsored education which is the most abused social program in Sweden.

There is plenty of information on what actually happens there.

No system is perfect but the people that need a Government to hold their hand from cradle to grave in order to survive do not define the success or failure of capitalism.

[barbar]

I don't see the appeal for a massive nanny state, for an intrusive bureaucracy and punitive tax's.

Its a popular ideology to the younger people and professors isolated in university settings but given a choice most Americans want a limited government with powers enumerated by our constitution.

Sweden claims to perfection are highly exaggerated. Their tax rate of 50 % plus a VAT of over 20% means that every dollar you earn, 70% goes to the government.

Does that sound like a good idea ??

The system "working" is subjective. Their unemployed are usually hidden in state sponsored education which is the most abused social program in Sweden.

There is plenty of information on what actually happens there.

No system is perfect but the people that need a Government to hold their hand from cradle to grave in order to survive do not define the success or failure of capitalism.

Who cares how much money goes to the govt, it is how the money is used. Corruption is not massive in many socialist countries (left of centre), unlike in the states where it does seem epidemic.

The nanny state, well that is an opinion. What choices can they not make.

I look at what money I have to be used for pleasure. And the Swedes do know how to party/travel! So i suspect that they have greater amount of actual money to do with what they please.

I did chose Sweden, because it is the most left and with freedom of choice.

Sweden is not perfect, but what is? It does seem to work for them!

I can not speak for what Americans think, all I can say is that the majority must want left wing policies, this may/may not change at the next election.

Your constitution was written 200 years ago, times have changed since then.
If you do not evolve you will die or become enslaved.

[Six]

Who cares how much money goes to the govt, it is how the money is used. Corruption is not massive in many socialist countries (left of centre), unlike in the states where it does seem epidemic.

I do and so should you. First of all its not the governments money and second the governments existence is dependent on the private sector, not the other way around.


The nanny state, well that is an opinion. What choices can they not make.

No its a pretty common description of a intrusive socialistic bureaucracy that provides practically everything for it's citizens. Your assertion that " Corruption is not massive in many socialist countries " is an opinion. Feel free to post links to back up your claims.


I look at what money I have to be used for pleasure. And the Swedes do know how to party/travel! So i suspect that they have greater amount of actual money to do with what they please.

You "suspect" but try being objective and doing some research on what life is actually like being taxed at 70%. Believe it or not they have major issues with corruption in Sweden and misuse of tax payers funds.


I did chose Sweden, because it is the most left and with freedom of choice.

Lol ! That sentence is a contradiction. Freedom of choice in a socialist tax hungry bureaucracy is a illusion.


Sweden is not perfect, but what is? It does seem to work for them!

If they're complacent with their style of government and level of taxation more power to them, just leave it in Sweden. I don't need some nameless faceless bureaucrat making life choices for or my family.


I can not speak for what Americans think, all I can say is that the majority must want left wing policies, this may/may not change at the next election.

How do you figure ??? Any links or data to back up your claims ? I think the majority of Americans if they didn't know before know now the ineffectiveness of left wing polices. 4 years of no GDP growth, rising prices on goods and services, wasteful spending at a record pace ( 5 trillion added to our national debt ), anemic economy, croney capitalism, unemployment on the rise and food stamp use at record levels. Why would anyone in their right mind want 4 more years of that ?


Your constitution was written 200 years ago, times have changed since then.
If you do not evolve you will die or become enslaved.

If you simply toss the Constitution because it's premise disagrees with a ill educated fringe element that's enamored with mediocrity then its not much of a Constitution is it ????

We have ways of changing it through a Constitutional Convention. Its not easy and its designed that way. The same way our government it set up with three equal branches to make acute radical change very difficult.


Try reading the US constitution before dismissing it.

[barbar]

I do and so should you. First of all its not the governments money and second the governments existence is dependent on the private sector, not the other way around.

Money from the govt comes from the people, directly or indirectly and/or from govt investments

No its a pretty common description of a intrusive socialistic bureaucracy that provides practically everything for it's citizens. Your assertion that " Corruption is not massive in many socialist countries " is an opinion. Feel free to post links to back up your claims.

Why is it intrusive to provide for it citizens, center left countries do not stop you from choosing different services.
Least corrupt countries
http://www.infoplease.com/world/statistics/least-corrupt-countries.html
as you can see no one is perfect, can you see social responsible counties. A even mix of socialism and capitalism.



You "suspect" but try being objective and doing some research on what life is actually like being taxed at 70%. Believe it or not they have major issues with corruption in Sweden and misuse of tax payers funds.
I Have been taxed more than 70%, but i was earning enough, and I had the luxuries of life.
Sweden may have its own problems, who does not! Misuse can be reported in which ever way you want depending upon your leaning.


Lol ! That sentence is a contradiction. Freedom of choice in a socialist tax hungry bureaucracy is a illusion.

Why is it an illusion, they have free elections, and a wide choice of parties to choose from including the far right. With any level of freedom comes responsibility and this does mean laws.

If they're complacent with their style of government and level of taxation more power to them, just leave it in Sweden. I don't need some nameless faceless bureaucrat making life choices for or my family.

And that is the difference, all you care about is you, while others can look beyond self, and see what benefits the community and community need governence


How do you figure ??? Any links or data to back up your claims ? I think the majority of Americans if they didn't know before know now the ineffectiveness of left wing polices. 4 years of no GDP growth, rising prices on goods and services, wasteful spending at a record pace ( 5 trillion added to our national debt ), anemic economy, croney capitalism, unemployment on the rise and food stamp use at record levels. Why would anyone in their right mind want 4 more years of that ?

That is pretty simple who is in "Power", if it changes then my statement will wrong.

I ask you this question (as I asked others) what has the States to offer the world NOW, exports, that the world is willing to pay a premium for, to reduce unemployment, and deficits.
I am sure the sub prime problem was caused under Bush.



If you simply toss the Constitution because it's premise disagrees with a ill educated fringe element that's enamored with mediocrity then its not much of a Constitution is it ????

We have ways of changing it through a Constitutional Convention. Its not easy and its designed that way. The same way our government it set up with three equal branches to make acute radical change very difficult.


Try reading the US constitution before dismissing it.

I did not say Toss the Constitution ( I have read you founding document, wise words, but can be left to interpretation It was a document of liberalization not conservatism)but you keep referring to a document that is 200 years old, that was written for a place in time. The time has changed, you need look how this is to modernized, stop looking back start looking forward!
I very much doubt a radical change will happen while conservatives just keeping looking back at the good old days. Do you just have a fear of change?

[prorefco]

I did not say Toss the Constitution ( I have read you founding document, wise words, but can be left to interpretation It was a document of liberalization not conservatism)but you keep referring to a document that is 200 years old, that was written for a place in time. The time has changed, you need look how this is to modernized, stop looking back start looking forward!
I very much doubt a radical change will happen while conservatives just keeping looking back at the good old days. Do you just have a fear of change?

So, breathing unfiltered air without man-made assistance is as old as mankind, does this mean we need to stop doing it because it's old and we should modernize it??

What anything else that been around a while?? Why is it that just because some thing or concept is old, it needs replacing?? I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. Our constitution will last another 200 years easily if we can get the socialists and communists out of here... Rat bastards anyway....

[barbar]

So, breathing unfiltered air without man-made assistance is as old as mankind, does this mean we need to stop doing it because it's old and we should modernize it??

What anything else that been around a while?? Why is it that just because some thing or concept is old, it needs replacing?? I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. Our constitution will last another 200 years easily if we can get the socialists and communists out of here... Rat bastards anyway....

No, things do not need to change, for changes sake, but times Have changed, so referencing prior to the change is just futile. So how are you going to get rid of the commies and their cronies, What do have that offers the voting populous a better choice, and how are you going to achieve it.
Or do you want to remove all rights to those who do not share your point of view.

[jmac00]

Commtech seems to be saying the exact same thing I would, nice job.

as far as your "facts" about the least corrupt countries in the world, I have to say, I almost choked laughing?


the Berlin-based organization Transparency International, Finland, Denmark, and New Zealand are perceived to be the world's least corrupt countries,

[prorefco]

No, things do not need to change, for changes sake, but times Have changed, so referencing prior to the change is just futile. So how are you going to get rid of the commies and their cronies, What do have that offers the voting populous a better choice, and how are you going to achieve it.
Or do you want to remove all rights to those who do not share your point of view.

It's not so much about WHAT we have (need) to take power away from the commies, but who... While we have many problems in our system that leaves the barn door open for commie beasties to enter and congregate, there are a few things that could be done to greatly reduce their proliferation. First, term limits on all elected positions. Most politicians don't enter the system with greed and corruption, once they get a taste of money and power the greed sets in. The crony capitalism gets ingrained in them and then their main interest becomes getting relected.

Secondly, government lobbying. Eliminate it! Corporations essentially buy legislation through lobbying. This is intended to eliminate (or reduce) competition and bolster sales through legislation. At the same time it reduces individual liberties.

Case in point; Look at the whole global warming cap & tax crap. Anything a government does to address global warming (if global warming actually existed) doesn't do a thing to slow or stop it. It ONLY puts money into the pockets of politicians and corporate elites. It's another commie initiative. Universal healthcare is another one. It won't help ANY individual, it will ONLY put more money into the pockets of the rich & powerful. Yet another commie plot.

These are just two things that should be done for starters that can have wide ranging effects. There are many other things we could do ot help but there is not enough room here to explain all...

[barbar]

Commtech seems to be saying the exact same thing I would, nice job.

as far as your "facts" about the least corrupt countries in the world, I have to say, I almost choked laughing?

So why are these countries so corrupt, that it makes you choke while laughing.

Show me some other data that ranks corruption.

Or do you think I just made them up, to show on this site, let me guess you think it is just commie propaganda and a pack of lies!

I can speak for New Zealand, the people will not put up with politicians who are corrupt. Left or right.

[barbar]

It's not so much about WHAT we have (need) to take power away from the commies, but who... While we have many problems in our system that leaves the barn door open for commie beasties to enter and congregate, there are a few things that could be done to greatly reduce their proliferation. First, term limits on all elected positions. Most politicians don't enter the system with greed and corruption, once they get a taste of money and power the greed sets in. The crony capitalism gets ingrained in them and then their main interest becomes getting relected.

Secondly, government lobbying. Eliminate it! Corporations essentially buy legislation through lobbying. This is intended to eliminate (or reduce) competition and bolster sales through legislation. At the same time it reduces individual liberties.

Case in point; Look at the whole global warming cap & tax crap. Anything a government does to address global warming (if global warming actually existed) doesn't do a thing to slow or stop it. It ONLY puts money into the pockets of politicians and corporate elites. It's another commie initiative. Universal healthcare is another one. It won't help ANY individual, it will ONLY put more money into the pockets of the rich & powerful. Yet another commie plot.

These are just two things that should be done for starters that can have wide ranging effects. There are many other things we could do ot help but there is not enough room here to explain all...

I have to agree with your first part.

Global warming, is still in debate, so leave this but, I can agree how it being handled is about the money and not the environment.

Healthcare, as universal healthcare is something I already have and you do not, i am all for it, but the way it is being played in the states, it is as you said (half hearted attempt). But to shift to a more recognized system would require a very major shift. maybe to much in a single bound.

[prorefco]

FREE MARKETS is the only way..... Once the .gov gets its paws into an industry, it's all down hill from there....

We would not even be having this discussion if the .gov hadn't intruded into our markets in the first place. Having a business friendly environment is what makes a contry strong and self-sufficient...

[jmac00]

So why are these countries so corrupt, that it makes you choke while laughing.

Show me some other data that ranks corruption.

Or do you think I just made them up, to show on this site, let me guess you think it is just commie propaganda and a pack of lies!

I can speak for New Zealand, the people will not put up with politicians who are corrupt. Left or right.

funny thing about corruption, no one knows about it.........until it's discovered by the media or other outlets. A government (such as New Zealand or United Kingdom)that wants to keep corruption out of the spot light, they have that ability

so to say that these countries are "Perceived to be" I find hilarious. If you take that website as fact, well your just gullible. You simply can not have an Elite section of society (politicians) and NOT have some form of corruption.

[jmac00]

Case in point; Look at the whole global warming cap & tax crap. Anything a government does to address global warming (if global warming actually existed) doesn't do a thing to slow or stop it. It ONLY puts money into the pockets of politicians and corporate elites. It's another commie initiative. Universal healthcare is another one. It won't help ANY individual, it will ONLY put more money into the pockets of the rich & powerful. Yet another commie plot.

These are just two things that should be done for starters that can have wide ranging effects. There are many other things we could do ot help but there is not enough room here to explain all...


interesting you bring this up in a conversation about corruption:

I found this on the net the other day: Speaking of corruption


EPA Fines Oil Companies for Another Company’s Fraud - Welcome to
“Managed America.”

The U.S. EPA “Settled “with 30 companies because they
purchased “Fuel Credits,” even though at the time of the purchases there was no way for the buyers to know the seller would not complete their right to sell the credits. The Environmental Protection Agency reached settlement agreements with ExxonMobil Corp., Shell Oil Co. and 28 other companies after they bought “fraudulent” renewablefuel credits. The EPA said in administrative settlement documents on its website today
that the refiners and other companies bought credits for the required production of biodiesel from either Clean Green Fuels LLC or Absolute Fuels LLC. EPA made the settlement offers to “help restore certainty in the market, resolve the violations and ensure that the goals of Congress are met,” Betsaida Alcantara, a spokeswoman for EPA, said today in an e-mail. Three of the 33 companies contacted by the EPA didn’t settle, she said, without identifying those companies.

The EPA said Clean Green Fuels and Absolute Fuels sold credits for the production of clean fuel they didn’t make. Those companies face separate actions by the EPA. Rodney R. Hailey, owner of Clean Green in Maryland, was charged by U.S. officials on Oct. 3 with wire fraud, money laundering and violating the Clean Air Act, according to the EPA. Hailey has pleaded not guilty in U.S. District Court, according to the Washington Post. A telephone message left with his lawyer, Joseph Evans, wasn’t immediately returned.

None of the companies admitted wrongdoing, according to the
settlement documents. Exxon agreed to pay a U.S. fine of $165,407; Shell, $110,331; ConocoPhillips (COP), $250,000; and a unit of BP Plc (BP/), $350,000. “ConocoPhillips purchased the RINs in good faith and was the victim of fraud committed by the seller,” Janet Grothe, a spokeswoman for the company, said in an e-mail. The credits are called Renewable Identification Numbers, or RINs. “The civil settlement does not constitute an
admission of liability,” she said. Kayla Macke, a spokeswoman for Shell, referred questions to the American Petroleum Institute in Washington.

when all else fails, just make up stuff and hand out arbitrary fines. Granted, the fines are a joke, for Exxon to pay $165K, thats pocket change to them. They probably paid that out of petty cash?

But the fact that the EPA made this stuff up is Ludicrous

[prorefco]

Well, you do kow that the epa has set requirements on oil companies their motor fuels to contain a certain minimum percentage of "cellulose" ethanol or face a fine. The problem here is that there is not enough cellulose ethanol available to go around, thus, all motor fuel companies WILL be fined. Is this the stupidest thing you have ever heard of?? Another example of crony capitalism and commie plot....

[jmac00]

we (the world) are about to get a first hand look at whether Socialism works or not.

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/EU-France-Presidential-Election/2012/05/06/id/438154?s=al&promo_code=ED59-1

The world economy just got a whole lot more interesting

[Six]

I did not say Toss the Constitution ( I have read you founding document, wise words, but can be left to interpretation It was a document of liberalization not conservatism)but you keep referring to a document that is 200 years old, that was written for a place in time. The time has changed, you need look how this is to modernized, stop looking back start looking forward!
I very much doubt a radical change will happen while conservatives just keeping looking back at the good old days. Do you just have a fear of change?


What specific part of the Constitution needs to be changed ?

[Six]

we (the world) are about to get a first hand look at whether Socialism works or not.

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/EU-France-Presidential-Election/2012/05/06/id/438154?s=al&promo_code=ED59-1

The world economy just got a whole lot more interesting

Its pretty bad. If austerity fails in Europe investors are going to move their money in to the safest option which right now T bills. That massive influx of cash is going to be the
nail in the coffin for an already weak American dollar.

Inflation's bad now but just wait.

[prorefco]

And speaking of the CNC, here's another one of his genius plans:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/05/07/us-secretly-releasing-taliban-fighters-report-says/

[jmac00]

Its pretty bad. If austerity fails in Europe investors are going to move their money in to the safest option which right now T bills. That massive influx of cash is going to be the
nail in the coffin for an already weak American dollar.

Inflation's bad now but just wait.

and the new French government is going to tax the "rich" at 75%, what do you think the rich French people will be doing, other than moving. :whistle:

[Six]

I did not say Toss the Constitution ( I have read you founding document, wise words, but can be left to interpretation It was a document of liberalization not conservatism)but you keep referring to a document that is 200 years old, that was written for a place in time. The time has changed, you need look how this is to modernized, stop looking back start looking forward!
I very much doubt a radical change will happen while conservatives just keeping looking back at the good old days. Do you just have a fear of change?


What you're advocating is the same thing as tossing the constitutuon. A selective edit of our founding doctrine to suite a leftist ideology.

Might as well use it as a door matt.

[coolwhip]

Barbar is our token brainwashed leftist from abroad.:whistle:

[Six]

Barbar is our token brainwashed leftist from abroad.:whistle:

Maybe we can help him evolve.

[netsalt]

After reading this thread it is quite obvious why the US is racing to the bottom. There are alot of Americans with provincial tastes that have the attitude "since it worked yesterday it will work for tomorrow" There have been a few other societies that felt they were above the fray and didn't need to change but I just can't remember who they were - no matter they are gone.:Faint:

[coolwhip]

By change, do you mean accepting a socialist progressive government over a constitutional republic?

By change, do you mean accepting a government that substitutes self autonomy for dependance?

If this what you mean, then I will fight, and train my children to fight against it every day.

[Six]

Your right. We should be more like Greece whos socialist policies and massive borrowing has thrown the economy of the European union into chaos. Or Ftance who has 20 percent unemployment. Or Spain whos massive spending and borrowing to prop up a top heavy social programs along with Ireland, England , Greece and Italy have all but crushed the Euro.

What exactly needs to be chaged in our Constitution ? What part of our foznding documents is causing our inevitable collapse ?

[netsalt]

By change, do you mean accepting a socialist progressive government over a constitutional republic?

By change, do you mean accepting a government that substitutes self autonomy for dependance?

If this what you mean, then I will fight, and train my children to fight against it every day.

This illustrates my point exactly. I guess life would be simple if we could choose either black or white with no shades of grey but in my experience life is to unpredictable and nuanced for such a simplistic approach. Things will change with or without you, resistance is an option but firm guidance with an open mind is an option also.

[coolwhip]

Yes, things will change and for the better if I can help it....which isn't the socialist progressive way this administration is taking us.

The Nazis were socialists...that took over business, health care, everything. Are you a Nazi?

[netsalt]

I was waiting for that - is the next thing "are you a Communist?" The answer on both is NO by the way. Are you a fascist?

[prorefco]

This illustrates my point exactly. I guess life would be simple if we could choose either black or white with no shades of grey but in my experience life is to unpredictable and nuanced for such a simplistic approach. Things will change with or without you, resistance is an option but firm guidance with an open mind is an option also.

Ugh, another commie on board. THEE one thing that differentiates (at least it used to) America from all the other countries is that our government was founded on the notion that our basic human rights were granted by a power higher than the government itself. Socialism and all the other 'isms don't believe in that concept. They all believe that the .gov grants rights and takes them away... That the .gov is, well, God... Sorry all you commies out there, as far as I am concerned, I also will fight toothe & nail against and and all socialist programs and rule when they enter this country.

[coolwhip]

I was waiting for that - is the next thing "are you a Communist?" The answer on both is NO by the way. Are you a fascist?

Nope, I support the constitution of the United States and a Constitutional Republic. Anything that interferes with this is treading on my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

DONT TREAD ON ME.....and we will get along just fine.:cheers:

Our founding fathers warned us of people like you.

[coolwhip]

I was waiting for that - is the next thing "are you a Communist?" The answer on both is NO by the way. Are you a fascist?

If you know the answers to the questions you post, why do you post them?

[netsalt]

Ugh, another commie on board. THEE one thing that differentiates (at least it used to) America from all the other countries is that our government was founded on the notion that our basic human rights were granted by a power higher than the government itself. Socialism and all the other 'isms don't believe in that concept. They all believe that the .gov grants rights and takes them away... That the .gov is, well, God... Sorry all you commies out there, as far as I am concerned, I also will fight toothe & nail against and and all socialist programs and rule when they enter this country.

It is your right as an American, it may not be in the best interest of the country but it is your right.

[netsalt]

Nope, I support the constitution of the United States and a Constitutional Republic. Anything that interferes with this is treading on my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

DONT TREAD ON ME.....and we will get along just fine.:cheers:

Our founding fathers warned us of people like you.

So you are from New Hampshire. Our founding fathers warned us against factions of the population on either extreme - that includes the far right.

[prorefco]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=F5xaZB8AgAQ

At least we now know how liberals die...


And I believe that it IS INDEED in the best interest of the country to make people responsible and productive again... That all starts with the belief the .gov is not God and that our human rights don't come from the .gov... If you want your government to be your God, the Russians are waiting for you...

[netsalt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=F5xaZB8AgAQ

At least we now know how liberals die...


And I believe that it IS INDEED in the best interest of the country to make people responsible and productive again... That all starts with the belief the .gov is not God and that our human rights don't come from the .gov... If you want your government to be your God, the Russians are waiting for you...

Like I said - your right to think as you please, but the definition of human rights is a perfect example of a nuance, what you see as a right others may see as a privilege and I am quite sure it goes both ways. One man may feel that driving a gas guzzler is his human right whereas another may say healthcare is a human right. Who will play God and decide?

[prorefco]

Like I said - your right to think as you please, but the definition of human rights is a perfect example of a nuance, what you see as a right others may see as a privilege and I am quite sure it goes both ways. One man may feel that driving a gas guzzler is his human right whereas another may say healthcare is a human right. Who will play God and decide?

Our God-given rights are spelled out in the consitiution... I didn't see anything there about gas guzzling cars or healthcare insurance...

But watch out what you wish for, you might just get it... And then whatcha going to say about commies??

[AStudent]

I still think it's hilarious that we have people in this country who think that everything is fine...we do not need to change a thing (except our president)...but yet you turn the corner and those same people are complaining about everything under the sun.

You can't change one man in power and fix an entire system that's broken....When corporations buy our politicians, the corporations are also buying our laws. You scream smaller government but you are blinded to the fact that it is the corporations that are both building up as well as destroying this country.

Some people seem to want to go back to life before government, when the streets were our restrooms, we were gunning people down for looking at us funny. Crimes were hardly ever solved, bandits roamed free, and the only defense anyone had against crimes done to them was their word.

Government stepped in and gave us the life we have now, not corporations, government...and corrupt as it may be I would rather be facing a corrupt person today than walking through piles of human crap yesterday.

[Six]

Like I said - your right to think as you please, but the definition of human rights is a perfect example of a nuance, what you see as a right others may see as a privilege and I am quite sure it goes both ways. One man may feel that driving a gas guzzler is his human right whereas another may say healthcare is a human right. Who will play God and decide?

Our Constitution ond Bill of rights are pretty specific.

You put little value in the contents of at least one of those according to one of your previous post.

[netsalt]

Does the Constitution give an individual the right to privacy? If so the circumstances where it is protected must be spelled out. If it does not then corps and the gov has the right to all of your personal secrets. It is not just black vs white, constitutional vs socialist or for that matter constitutional vs capitalist. The founding fathers wrote the document and amendments but they were human and unless we are talking divine inspiration they could not foresee every possible situation.

[jmac00]

I think the problems have become so numerous that it will take more than constant on-line bickering to fix.

There is nothing wrong with the Constitution, it was designed to be flexible. it was also designed to make changing it a tough thing to do.

what went wrong is when certain elitists decided they know how to run your life better than you do.

These elite individuals also discovered a lifetime occupation, which government service was never meant to be.

Add to that a significant number of people who have discovered they can vote themselves money, everyone else is pretty much screwed :cheers:

[scrogdog]

STEP 1: Enact term limits for ALL (and I do mean ALL) electable positions in government. There will be no more "career" politicians. No more spending your life in one political job.

You come from the rank and file knowing how stuff is; serve your time, and then return to civilian life.

Which is exactly what the founding fathers intended.

"The system" is not the issue. Here's the issue; out of touch legislators.

These are the folks that voted themselves thier very own retirement plan and medical plan. Why should they be concerned with what the little folks get?

These are the folks who voted down a proposed law that would REQUIRE them to actually read the bills that they vote on.

Is there any greater single instance of those elected proclaiming the electorate stupid? They didn't even try to hide it, a completely unabashed admission; nope we're not doing it and you can't make us!

Oh yes we can! But we don't.

One gets the government that one deserves.

[Six]

Like I said - your right to think as you please, but the definition of human rights is a perfect example of a nuance, what you see as a right others may see as a privilege and I am quite sure it goes both ways. One man may feel that driving a gas guzzler is his human right whereas another may say healthcare is a human right. Who will play God and decide?


I still think it's hilarious that we have people in this country who think that everything is fine...we do not need to change a thing (except our president)...but yet you turn the corner and those same people are complaining about everything under the sun.

You can't change one man in power and fix an entire system that's broken....When corporations buy our politicians, the corporations are also buying our laws. You scream smaller government but you are blinded to the fact that it is the corporations that are both building up as well as destroying this country. t

Some people seem to want to go back to life before government, when the streets were our restrooms, we were gunning people down for looking at us funny. Crimes were hardly ever solved, bandits roamed free, and the only defense anyone had against crimes done to them was their word.

Government stepped in and gave us the life we have now, not corporations, government...and corrupt as it may be I would rather be facing a corrupt person today than walking through piles of human crap yesterday.


Whats hillarious and disturbing is the insistance of some misguided folk that think European socialist policies are the answer.

With the Eurozone at deaths door economically people continue to perpetuate the socialist agenda.

[Six]

Does the Constitution give an individual the right to privacy? If so the circumstances where it is protected must be spelled out. If it does not then corps and the gov has the right to all of your personal secrets. It is not just black vs white, constitutional vs socialist or for that matter constitutional vs capitalist. The founding fathers wrote the document and amendments but they were human and unless we are talking divine inspiration they could not foresee every possible situation.

Our judicial branch tackles that very issue. Brilliant huh?

[netsalt]

Our judicial branch tackles that very issue. Brilliant huh?

So you would say the Constitution is a flexible document? But I thought you said the constitution was pretty specific.

[Six]

You folks that tend to talk up socialism will find out soon enough how bankrupt that iseology is. France elected a hard core socialist who has vowed to roll back austerity measures. Im guessing you have no idea what kind of impact thats going to have on the world markets and on our monetary system. The Euro fails then dollar failsas European investors poor their money into the only safe alternative.

The American Treasury bond. That massive influx of cash will have one major impact and its a negative one. Massive inflation.

[Six]

Does the Constitution give an individual the right to privacy? If so the circumstances where it is protected must be spelled out. If it does not then corps and the gov has the right to all of your personal secrets. It is not just black vs white, constitutional vs socialist or for that matter constitutional vs capitalist. The founding fathers wrote the document and amendments but they were human and unless we are talking divine inspiration they could not foresee every possible situation.


So you would say the Constitution is a flexible document? But I thought you said the constitution was pretty specific.

You're trying to play gotcha with the wrong guy. You're not smart enough.

The Supreme court judges argue the costitutionality of existing laws. Like Obama care. Misguided politicians with left leaning agendas use lies, deciept and payoffs to get a bill up to a misguided President with a left leaning agenda (who happens to be a Constitutional scholar........yea right ) who then signs them into law. Those laws are challenged because someone with a brain realizes they do not meet the standards of whats in our Constitution.


You get it? The constitution is the standars laws made expo facto are compared to.

[Six]

You want to change the Consititution then that takes a Constitutional Convemtion.

[Six]

A Constitution by its definition is not a " flexible document" or a living breathing document. Those are just buzz words from the left who want to roll it up and use it to discipline their rotweillers.

[netsalt]

You're trying to play gotcha with the wrong guy. You're not smart enough.

The Supreme court judges argue the costitutionality of existing laws. Like Obama care. Misguided politicians with left leaning agendas use lies, deciept and payoffs to get a bill up to a misguided President with a left leaning agenda (who happens to be a Constitutional scholar........yea right ) who then signs them into law. Those laws are challenged because someone with a brain realizes they do not meet the standards of whats in our Constitution.


You get it? The constitution is the standars laws made expo facto are compared to.

Got it. conservative - good, liberal - bad, left - bad, right- good . I see that its simple when its all black and white.

[jmac00]

Some people seem to want to go back to life before government, when the streets were our restrooms, we were gunning people down for looking at us funny. Crimes were hardly ever solved, bandits roamed free, and the only defense anyone had against crimes done to them was their word.

Government stepped in and gave us the life we have now, not corporations, government...and corrupt as it may be I would rather be facing a corrupt person today than walking through piles of human crap yesterday.

when did this all happen? I think you have been watching to much television.

The rule of Law has always been with us. Yes, we did have criminals, some worse than others, but 90% of the people that came to America and moved west were decent law abiding citizens. (except for the part about wiping out the American Indian)

[Tommy1010]

you folks decide you can vote for obama;

a man that wants to "talk" with terrorist's like the taliban

if he is re-elected, we deserve what we get

[coolperfect]

Its pretty bad. If austerity fails in Europe investors are going to move their money in to the safest option which right now T bills. That massive influx of cash is going to be the
nail in the coffin for an already weak American dollar.

Inflation's bad now but just wait.
If austerity fails in Europe anyone who buys T bills is not going to get their money back,how can they their gov. Will default.A weak dollar is mostly good for us.

[prorefco]

I still think it's hilarious that we have people in this country who think that everything is fine...we do not need to change a thing (except our president)...but yet you turn the corner and those same people are complaining about everything under the sun.

You can't change one man in power and fix an entire system that's broken....When corporations buy our politicians, the corporations are also buying our laws. You scream smaller government but you are blinded to the fact that it is the corporations that are both building up as well as destroying this country.

Some people seem to want to go back to life before government, when the streets were our restrooms, we were gunning people down for looking at us funny. Crimes were hardly ever solved, bandits roamed free, and the only defense anyone had against crimes done to them was their word.

Government stepped in and gave us the life we have now, not corporations, government...and corrupt as it may be I would rather be facing a corrupt person today than walking through piles of human crap yesterday.

Yes, that's called lobbying... See my earlier post on lobbying... That's not capitalism, that's the crony network.... And you thinkn obama-lama-ding-dong doesn't do that?? Perfect example here of a commie... You are parroting the same reasoning (if you call it reasoning) that the big zero spews out everyday...

[coolperfect]

During the Mid 80's our dollar was strong, the lira was weak.A ton of equipment was imported here from Europe, one of the brands was Costan.With a weak dollar they buy our Carrier,Trane,Hussmann,ect!

[prorefco]

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/05/keynesianism_and_the_collectivist_dream.html#ixzz1 uCCSTdds

I know I'm probably wasting bandwidth and time posting this artical, but if support the zero, you might want to take the time to read it through... Of course most likely the only ones who will read it are already understanding of econimics anyway... Leftists don't like facts, they just get in the way of their agenda...

Enjoy

[netsalt]

Read it but I wonder why do they have to go back to Saint Ronnie for examples of supply side successes. Were there no supply side wins for HW or GW? He states that the Keynesian Carter years led to Raygun riding in on his stead to save the day. But he misses the first Bush recession that left Clinton holding the bag. Was GW a supply sider or a Keynesian? Because he left Obama with a real sad economy. These are facts but I know facts have a liberal bias.

[scrogdog]

Bush tax cuts were a supply side win. That's why they've tended to be renewed.

Clinton left a Bush with the dot com bubble burst.

[jmac00]

why is this concept so difficult for Liberals to understand, unless their only goal is to destroy America




The beauty of supply-side economics is that it achieves what politicians rarely do: it recognizes and accounts for the economic realities of individuals. In fact, it relies heavily upon those realities. Reagan's economic advisers knew that cutting taxes would leave individual Americans with more discretionary income, giving a boost to demand. They knew that if they incentivized individual producers and businesses, those same people and enterprises would be eager to invest to meet that increased demand, yielding economic growth and prosperity. They knew that individuals are the drivers of economic success, not the government.

But Keynesian economics, like socialism, Marxism, and fascism, can work only in the absence of individualism. And this is simply not a realistic expectation unless individualism is forcefully repressed. Rather, human nature dictates that individualism will be expressed in a free society, and along with it will come varying levels of ambition and ability -- and, ultimately, success. This is reality, and it cannot be ignored simply because it is an inconvenient consideration. Yet that is precisely what Keynesian economists do. And that is precisely why many of us recognize that Keynesian economists fail.

[barbar]

Good morning ladies.
A couple of ***** slaps given, oh that hurt.
Brainwashed, the only brainwashed on here is those who think they can change and relive the past.
Left wing I think not, i am a liberal or lateral thinker, which allows me to choose a direction which beset suits my ideology, which can be left and further right wing than you pretenders.
Corruption/greed, you think that everybody else is like you "Me first and f*** everybody else" Well many of us are not! Where are your facts to show that NZ and the like have large amounts of govt corruption. I gave a list, where is yours, I will accept a right wing version!
What freedoms are we missing in our social responsible countries.
For example I am pretty sure we are not allowed to carry around loaded hand guns, It does not really matter, as we have no need to carry hand guns, we don not let the fear of a few dictate our freedom of harmony and happiness.

Netsalt is correct life is not black and white is always grey! And the tone of grey needs to change as time changes.

[dec]

Good morning ladies.
A couple of ***** slaps given, oh that hurt.
Brainwashed, the only brainwashed on here is those who think they can change and relive the past.
Left wing I think not, i am a liberal or lateral thinker, which allows me to choose a direction which beset suits my ideology, which can be left and further right wing than you pretenders.
Corruption/greed, you think that everybody else is like you "Me first and f*** everybody else" Well many of us are not! Where are your facts to show that NZ and the like have large amounts of govt corruption. I gave a list, where is yours, I will accept a right wing version!
What freedoms are we missing in our social responsible countries.
For example I am pretty sure we are not allowed to carry around loaded hand guns, It does not really matter, as we have no need to carry hand guns, we don not let the fear of a few dictate our freedom of harmony and happiness.

Netsalt is correct life is not black and white is always grey! And the tone of grey needs to change as time changes.

All I can say is I am glad I live in the United States and not NZ. Oh and you can keep your Liberal Ideoligy with it :grin2::grin2::grin2:

[prorefco]

All I can say is I am glad I live in the United States and not NZ. Oh and you can keep your Liberal Ideoligy with it :grin2::grin2::grin2:

Here here, I agree.. If someone has never lived in the US, they don't have a dog in the fight....

[barbar]

All I can say is I am glad I live in the United States and not NZ. Oh and you can keep your Liberal Ideoligy with it :grin2::grin2::grin2:
Well you are unlikely to have the choice, I did, as the United States wanted ME, but I chose NZ, I am forward thinker, not a backwards thinker, so the states was not for me.
And yes I will keep my open, free thinking, unlimited ideology.
Glad to see you attempted to answer my questions.:cheers:

[barbar]

Here here, I agree.. If someone has never lived in the US, they don't have a dog in the fight....
Woof woof.:grin2:

The fact is that states is a great power and what happens in the states does effect the rest of the world. It aids me and many others is the states has a stable moderate govt and a buoyant economy.

[jmac00]

Good morning ladies.
A couple of ***** slaps given, oh that hurt.
Brainwashed, the only brainwashed on here is those who think they can change and relive the past.
Left wing I think not, i am a liberal or lateral thinker, which allows me to choose a direction which beset suits my ideology, which can be left and further right wing than you pretenders.
Corruption/greed, you think that everybody else is like you "Me first and f*** everybody else" Well many of us are not! Where are your facts to show that NZ and the like have large amounts of govt corruption. I gave a list, where is yours, I will accept a right wing version!
What freedoms are we missing in our social responsible countries.
For example I am pretty sure we are not allowed to carry around loaded hand guns, It does not really matter, as we have no need to carry hand guns, we don not let the fear of a few dictate our freedom of harmony and happiness.

Netsalt is correct life is not black and white is always grey! And the tone of grey needs to change as time changes.

Even though you love your government, which admittedly I know nothing about, because I simply don't care about NZ~~~Nothing personal, what I am saying is there is no government on this planet that is not corrupt. If you believe the NZ government is perfect and without corruption, you are fooling yourself. There is no need for any list, every government has it's issues, some not as bad as others.

"Lateral Thinker"? you choose any direction which best suits you ideology? So your a follower, you'll jump on whatever band wagon comes along and is the most popular. Got it. bOh well, good luck with that.

[prorefco]

Woof woof.:grin2:

The fact is that states is a great power and what happens in the states does effect the rest of the world. It aids me and many others is the states has a stable moderate govt and a buoyant economy.

Most liberals in the world just want the US to be just like them, poor economies, wimpy militaries, and no American "Exceptualism"....

We here in the US know what we need to do to maintain ourselves... A change in administration is at the forefront of our priorities right now....

[barbar]

Even though you love your government, which admittedly I know nothing about, because I simply don't care about NZ~~~Nothing personal, what I am saying is there is no government on this planet that is not corrupt. If you believe the NZ government is perfect and without corruption, you are fooling yourself. There is no need for any list, every government has it's issues, some not as bad as others.

"Lateral Thinker"? you choose any direction which best suits you ideology? So your a follower, you'll jump on whatever band wagon comes along and is the most popular. Got it. bOh well, good luck with that.

Totally understand you point of view about NZ, yes only a tiny nation, with little influence on the states.
I do not think our system is perfect, neither do i believe it is without corruption, it does how ever has a lot less corruption.

No I am not a follower, far from it, a leader especially in the engineering field.
I do not jump on a band wagons, even though I do vote, which is my responsibility to the community. Changes occur over time, so my opinions need to change to meet the challenges that are placed in front of me.
Most popular has nothing to do with it.
I do not have my head up my back side, i smell the roses and the manure that is around me. neither do I live in fear.
If you can only look to the future by dreaming of the past then I pity you!

[Six]

If austerity fails in Europe anyone who buys T bills is not going to get their money back,how can they their gov. Will default.A weak dollar is mostly good for us.

If we keep electing incompetent egomaniacs who appeal to to the easily manipulated and run up debts and deficits by the trillions then yes you might be right about T-bills. It may be the only option as investors are forced to just maintain their portfolios value with zero expectation of profit.

When I talk about week dollars Im referring to your averge American who has'nt been hedging against our faliing currency or an exporter who takes advantage of our soft currency by increasing exports. Or manufacturers that invrease export salea because its cheaper to buy American.

A week dollar drives up oil because oil is bought and sold on the world markets with greenbacks. Oil prices bwing hivh drives up the cost of goods and services and since we're dealing with fiat currency too much money will increase inflation.

[Six]

Got it. conservative - good, liberal - bad, left - bad, right- good . I see that its simple when its all black and white.

The inevitable emd of any debate with any liberal. Nothing substantiave and no topic related rebut.

The only thing lacking is getting insulted. Usually an implication or even direct reference that Im a racist or a Nazi.....or botg.

[barbar]

Most liberals in the world just want the US to be just like them, poor economies, wimpy militaries, and no American "Exceptualism"....

We here in the US know what we need to do to maintain ourselves... A change in administration is at the forefront of our priorities right now....

What a load of BS,
Liberals what strong economies, freedom with responsibility.
Militiry size is generally speaking is a function of population.
So you are quite happy for Iran to have Nukes? (trying not to have a wimpy military)
What Exceptualism do you have now, high crime, high corruption, obesity, fear, diminishing naturalized population, drug dependency, reduced productivity,
( There are many skilled americans)
What do you mean you know how to maintain ourselves, do you not import most of your oil and many of your goods. Where has your production gone.

[prorefco]

The inevitable emd of any debate with any liberal. Nothing substantiave and no topic related rebut.

The only thing lacking is getting insulted. Usually an implication or even direct reference that Im a racist or a Nazi.....or botg.

You already know liberals can't handle facts... It sends their little brains into a tizzy and their eyes go into tilt mode... Then they need a reset which can only happen when they drink some more of the koolaid... A obama speech will set 'em straight and then they'll be all ready to start over again...

As an aside, I saw in teh news yesterday that zero's convention at Ohio state was under-attended by 50%... Word has it they made all the people move in close to the front so the place wouldn't look deserted during the photo session... BY contrast, this same venue was attended by 35,000 in 2008 when he was there... This time only 14,000 attended...

[prorefco]

What a load of BS,
Liberals what strong economies, freedom with responsibility.
Militiry size is generally speaking is a function of population.
So you are quite happy for Iran to have Nukes? (trying not to have a wimpy military)
What Exceptualism do you have now, high crime, high corruption, obesity, fear, diminishing naturalized population, drug dependency, reduced productivity,( There are many skilled americans)
What do you mean you know how to maintain ourselves, do you not import most of your oil and many of your goods. Where has you production gone.

No, we have our big screens and big macs... hahaha

Oh yeah and our guns....

[barbar]

No, we have our big screens and big macs... hahaha

Oh yeah and our guns....

Damn, you got me on the big macs. I just luv my Mac Attack (2 big macs fries and a coke about US$8)

I surrender!:angel:

[jmac00]

What a load of BS,
Liberals what strong economies, freedom with responsibility.
Militiry size is generally speaking is a function of population.
So you are quite happy for Iran to have Nukes? (trying not to have a wimpy military)
What Exceptualism do you have now, high crime, high corruption, obesity, fear, diminishing naturalized population, drug dependency, reduced productivity,
( There are many skilled americans)
What do you mean you know how to maintain ourselves, do you not import most of your oil and many of your goods. Where has your production gone.

Liberals with strong economies? Like France, or Greece, or Spain....

actually, crime in America is at a 4 year low (according to the FBI) and gun sales have sky rocketed. It turns out Obama is a hellofa gun salesman :grin2:More Guns, less crime

and just a FYI, America is not in the top thirty nations with violent crime. you look it up, you seem to be good at that :grin2:

[barbar]

Liberals with strong economies? Like France, or Greece, or Spain....

actually, crime in America is at a 4 year low (according to the FBI) and gun sales have sky rocketed. It turns out Obama is a hellofa gun salesman :grin2:More Guns, less crime

and just a FYI, America is not in the top thirty nations with violent crime. you look it up, you seem to be good at that :grin2:

France has been right wing driven for 17 years, only now has it just reverted to a socialist president. Check the news!
I promote social responsibility not what you call socialism, I think I am what you call a "moderate"

Good news Crime is down an guns sales are up, both good for the economy.
So Obama has done something right.

I would hope the states is not in the top thirty nations for violet crimes.

How funny when I started playing the ARP game, i got knocked down for not providing info with my statements, and now that I do, you knock again.
You ladies are hard to please.

[AStudent]

Yeah...America is not at the top when it comes to violent crimes...but we are at the top when it comes to all other crimes.

Many of you are complaining that this country is in bad shape and you think that all we have to do is change our president to fix that....it's more complicated than that.

Corporations have been buying power for decades...can anyone of you honestly say that if you were a politician and had tens of millions of dollars waved in your face and all you had to do was vote for this bill or vote against that bill, that you would not take the money?

It is not a matter of who is in office, but who is influencing our politicians...without changing that there will be no way for us to ever have an honest government again.

[prorefco]

Yeah...America is not at the top when it comes to violent crimes...but we are at the top when it comes to all other crimes.

Many of you are complaining that this country is in bad shape and you think that all we have to do is change our president to fix that....it's more complicated than that.

Corporations have been buying power for decades...can anyone of you honestly say that if you were a politician and had tens of millions of dollars waved in your face and all you had to do was vote for this bill or vote against that bill, that you would not take the money?

It is not a matter of who is in office, but who is influencing our politicians...without changing that there will be no way for us to ever have an honest government again.

You're right, it IS more complicated than that, but it's a good start.....

[AStudent]

You're right, it IS more complicated than that, but it's a good start.....

It's like going out on a call for no cooling....you get there compressor is shot....you change it....next week you get a call back and the compressor is shot again...do you keep changing the part or do you start looking for why it failed? Which you should have done the first time you were there.

[prorefco]

It's like going out on a call for no cooling....you get there compressor is shot....you change it....next week you get a call back and the compressor is shot again...do you keep changing the part or do you start looking for why it failed? Which you should have done the first time you were there.

Again, you are correct, but,,,,,, if I don't change the compressor first, I have no way of troubleshooting what else is wrong....

[netsalt]

The inevitable emd of any debate with any liberal. Nothing substantiave and no topic related rebut.

The only thing lacking is getting insulted. Usually an implication or even direct reference that Im a racist or a Nazi.....or botg.

Go back a few threads I was already accused of being a Nazi and was waiting on the commie accusation, no insults initiated by me I was just standin up for myself when I asked if he was a fascist . Hard core conservatives are predictable if nothing else, they seem to have this vision of non right wingers as anti-gun, anti fishing/hunting pansies. Surprise most are not - I spent the weekend with some likeminded individuals and I would put their collections on a par with any of my more conservative buds. The Conservative Authoritarian personality evidently does not allow any variance from their strict interpretation of life - I just see it as wearing blinders - their loss.

[jmac00]

Yeah...America is not at the top when it comes to violent crimes...but we are at the top when it comes to all other crimes

BS

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/september/crime_091911/crime_091911

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

now that is odd:

http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a-crime-puzzle-violent-crime-declines-in-america/

you guy want stats, here ya go

[coolwhip]

Babar and Astudent, the things you talk about now have been discussed on here in depth years ago. Pardon me for being a bit forward, but both of you come across as being naive or perhaps even childish in your perceptions of things political.
I feel as though you are in a 100 level class, yet you are preaching to graduates.
I am too old and lack the patience to bring you up to speed.

[netsalt]

Of course it is Obama's fault - the T party roared in to DC 2 years ago with the best of intentions and look at all the good they have done. If it wasn't for that nasty man in the White House vetoing every bill this country would be fixed by now.



December 30, 2009: Vetoed H.J.Res. 64 (http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.uscongress/legislation.111hjres64), Making further continuing appropriations for fiscal year 2010, and for other purposes. Override attempt failed in House.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_vetoes#cite_not e-31)
October 7, 2010: Vetoed H.R. 3808 (http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.uscongress/legislation.111hr3808), the Interstate Recognition of Notarizations Act of 2010. Override attempt in the House failed.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_vetoes#cite_not e-32)

Well two anyway. But that's two too many.

[prorefco]

BS

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/september/crime_091911/crime_091911

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

now that is odd:

http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a-crime-puzzle-violent-crime-declines-in-america/

you guy want stats, here ya go

Interesting statistics there jmac

[netsalt]

Conservative play book
1. insult
2. straw man argument
3. quote sourced from a conservative rag or blog, Faux News,conservative think tank
4. insult
5. Condescending attitude towards opponent
6 final insult usually something along the lines of you moran http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/moran-7512.jpg

Used with permission of Hannity/Rush LLC

[prorefco]

Conservative play book
1. insult
2. straw man argument
3. quote sourced from a conservative rag or blog, Faux News,conservative think tank
4. insult
5. Condescending attitude towards opponent
6 final insult usually something along the lines of you moran http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/moran-7512.jpg

Used with permission of Hannity/Rush LLC

Yup, that about sums it up... So, sue me....

[barbar]

Babar and Astudent, the things you talk about now have been discussed on here in depth years ago. Pardon me for being a bit forward, but both of you come across as being naive or perhaps even childish in your perceptions of things political.
I feel as though you are in a 100 level class, yet you are preaching to graduates.
I am too old and lack the patience to bring you up to speed.

Apologies that i am only new to the ARP game, (I can not travel back in time)
My naivety was that I did understand how narrow minded many americans are and how little understanding they have of other world politics.
You may well be a graduate in your "little bubble of limited experience" but still at kindergarten as far as world wide bubble.
I have no problem learning from those who know more, can you say the same. Or do you just dismiss any concept that does not come from your particular political leaning.
Enjoying the game
barbar

[jmac00]

well this debate has degraded into a big PP contest, and it is now getting tiresome.

you all slug it out, ZZZZzzzzzz

[prorefco]

nativity ??? wow

[jmac00]

Apologies that i am only new to the ARP game, (I can not travel back in time)
My nativity was that I did understand how narrow minded many americans are and how little understanding they have of other world politics.
You may well be a graduate in your "little bubble of limited experience" but still at kindergarten as far as world wide bubble.
I have no problem learning from those who know more, can you say the same. Or do you just dismiss any concept that does not come from your particular political leaning.
Enjoying the game
barbar

you live in New Zealand? so no one cares :whistle:

[barbar]

you live in New Zealand? so no one cares :whistle:
Does that mean you do not love me?
I am heart broken, with your insensitive words.:bump:

[netsalt]

Apologies that i am only new to the ARP game, (I can not travel back in time)
My naivety was that I did understand how narrow minded many americans are and how little understanding they have of other world politics.
You may well be a graduate in your "little bubble of limited experience" but still at kindergarten as far as world wide bubble.
I have no problem learning from those who know more, can you say the same. Or do you just dismiss any concept that does not come from your particular political leaning.
Enjoying the game
barbar

:cheers:

Don't worry though - alot of Americans are beginning to think outside the confines of the T party box since it is just too snug to be comfortable. :grin2:

[Six]

:cheers:

Don't worry though - alot of Americans are beginning to think outside the confines of the T party box since it is just too snug to be comfortable. :grin2:

By " a lot " you mean the same fringe that gets its attention like a kid having a tempertantrum and in no way represents a majority.
Keep grinning youre idea of what works is failing all around you.

[Six]

Yeah...America is not at the top when it comes to violent crimes...but we are at the top when it comes to all other crimes.

Many of you are complaining that this country is in bad shape and you think that all we have to do is change our president to fix that....it's more complicated than that.

Corporations have been buying power for decades...can anyone of you honestly say that if you were a politician and had tens of millions of dollars waved in your face and all you had to do was vote for this bill or vote against that bill, that you would not take the money?

It is not a matter of who is in office, but who is influencing our politicians...without changing that there will be no way for us to ever have an honest government again.

There is so much wrong with this post.

First corrupt politicians are by no means a new concept. That vocation attracts the power hungry and the greedy and our system is no different than any other when it comes to corrupt politicians.

You accept that there are a few bad apples but that there are also people who have a good moral core and are looking out for their constituents.

Second the president DOES have a lot to do with the our economy. It was Obama's foray into Keynesian economics to pull us out of a recession that deepened and perpetuated that same recession.

You want to climb out of a horrible economy quickly ? Lower top marginal rates on people who investors and cut the corporate tax down to ZERO. Incentivize job creation and not just for the union shops and now bankrupt green energy companies. It worked once it will work again.

How moronic are the liberals in our government to go after corporations ? To demonize the entities that employ a vast majority of Americans. To target the oil companies for excessive profits but selectively keep their mouths shut about companies like APPLE. To try and damage the companies that provide jobs and therefore tax revenues ?.

It's pathetic and reaching for a politician to manufacture an issue so as to divide Americans because they can't run on their accomplishments and even more pathetic for the citizen to take all of that at face value. Thanx Obama and his supporters ?

The Buffet rule.....what a joke. You realize Warrens Buffets company is fighting the IRS RIGHT NOW for close to a billion in tax's owed right ? But he's in on the illusion, the blatant attempt to fool the American people.

Truth is Obama and his political ilk think the average American is as dumb as a box of rocks. Nothing else could explain his pathetic attempts at manipulation. Like we wouldn't look into WHY BUFFET PAYS LESS THAN HIS SECRETARY......or if we found the truth we couldn't understand the concept of tax's on dividends being different than tax's on income.


Whining about the rich or corporations not paying their fair share just means you've been had.

You see "evil corporations " don't really pay tax's. Never have and Obama knows that. That simply pass that tax on to the consumer with a increase in price. An increase in corporate tax's is a tax increase on the consumer.

Its that simple. Increase the evil rich guys tax's and he'll move out of the area ( New York found this out the hard way ) or take extra steps to protect their assets rather than invest them back into the free market providing jobs and opportunity.

[chaard]

I guess you ignored all the facts in my post above. It's just easier for you to throw out terms like "kool aid drinkers" instead of rebutting facts and figures.

Frankly, I don't like Romney. But he's the only viable alternative to Obama, and Obama must go.

when are we gonna get a "LIKE" button? :grin2:

[chaard]

Yeah, the conservlicans like to imagine that the economy and everything was all peaches and cream and warm puppies prior to 1/20/2009.

Yeah, like it was in 2000. Oh wait it wasn't peaches and cream and Clinton was President. OH, SNAP!

[coolwhip]

Its like trying to teach grown children. And as foolish as they are, they think they are righteous...and there is no convincing them otherwise.

Ignorance is truly bliss in their case.

Liberalism is a disease.

We need to sever that cord that connects their ass to their brain so they quit talkin sheit.

[barbar]

There is so much wrong with this post.

First corrupt politicians are by no means a new concept. That vocation attracts the power hungry and the greedy and our system is no different than any other when it comes to corrupt politicians.

You accept that there are a few bad apples but that there are also people who have a good moral core and are looking out for their constituents.

Second the president DOES have a lot to do with the our economy. It was Obama's foray into Keynesian economics to pull us out of a recession that deepened and perpetuated that same recession.

You want to climb out of a horrible economy quickly ? Lower top marginal rates on people who investors and cut the corporate tax down to ZERO. Incentivize job creation and not just for the union shops and now bankrupt green energy companies. It worked once it will work again.

How moronic are the liberals in our government to go after corporations ? To demonize the entities that employ a vast majority of Americans. To target the oil companies for excessive profits but selectively keep their mouths shut about companies like APPLE. To try and damage the companies that provide jobs and therefore tax revenues ?.

It's pathetic and reaching for a politician to manufacture an issue so as to divide Americans because they can't run on their accomplishments and even more pathetic for the citizen to take all of that at face value. Thanx Obama and his supporters ?

The Buffet rule.....what a joke. You realize Warrens Buffets company is fighting the IRS RIGHT NOW for close to a billion in tax's owed right ? But he's in on the illusion, the blatant attempt to fool the American people.

Truth is Obama and his political ilk think the average American is as dumb as a box of rocks. Nothing else could explain his pathetic attempts at manipulation. Like we wouldn't look into WHY BUFFET PAYS LESS THAN HIS SECRETARY......or if we found the truth we couldn't understand the concept of tax's on dividends being different than tax's on income.


Whining about the rich or corporations not paying their fair share just means you've been had.

You see "evil corporations " don't really pay tax's. Never have and Obama knows that. That simply pass that tax on to the consumer with a increase in price. An increase in corporate tax's is a tax increase on the consumer.

Its that simple. Increase the evil rich guys tax's and he'll move out of the area ( New York found this out the hard way ) or take extra steps to protect their assets rather than invest them back into the free market providing jobs and opportunity.

All looks well and good.
Apple does amaze me stock price based upon 1.5% return on investment, shocking,. 35000 employed directly in China, via a sub contractor in Taiwan.
So more than likely 70,000 direct and indirect jobs not in the US.
The difference being that the chinks earn approx US$100 a month, could a US citizen survive of this. Here lies the problem, how do you keep the american/western dream alive without producing an underclass.
Same with new manufacturing jobs, who is going to purchase over priced american products. America can not depend upon wealthy migrants, surging population growth, large exports of value added products and base raw materials as in the past.
Your great wealth came form the ability to expand within you nation and utilization of the countries natural resources.
If you are happy with a class/cast structure, then your analogy is correct.

[scrogdog]

Ok, I admit I laid a trap for someone to make a point and not only did that person NOT call me out no one did.

What's wrong with post 140?

Anyone? :)

[coolperfect]

All looks well and good.
Apple does amaze me stock price based upon 1.5% return on investment, shocking,. 35000 employed directly in China, via a sub contractor in Taiwan.
So more than likely 70,000 direct and indirect jobs not in the US.
The difference being that the chinks earn approx US$100 a month, could a US citizen survive of this. Here lies the problem, how do you keep the american/western dream alive without producing an underclass.
Same with new manufacturing jobs, who is going to purchase over priced american products. America can not depend upon wealthy migrants, surging population growth, large exports of value added products and base raw materials as in the past.
Your great wealth came form the ability to expand within you nation and utilization of the countries natural resources.
If you are happy with a class/cast structure, then your analogy is correct. http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13093221 Apple does more than amaze,as does many of our world class companies,such as 3m,Boeing,United Technology, Emerson,ect!

[coolperfect]

Lets see 39 billion x 4 Quarters = 156 billion,that could more than the GNP of NZ!:grin2:

[barbar]

Lets see 39 billion x 4 Quarters = 156 billion,that could more than the GNP of NZ!:grin2:
And your point is?

[coolperfect]

That NZ is a pimple on someone's rear end!

[barbar]

That NZ is a pimple on someone's rear end!

I am glad to see that intellectuals are still alive in our industry. What great understanding you have of the world.
Keep up the good work.

[coolperfect]

Only sinking to your level,in your above posts! At least I am right and not posting a lot of BS!

[barbar]

Only sinking to your level,in your above posts! At least I am right and not posting a lot of BS!
Lets see how right you are.

New Zealand is a land mass, and is not an organic lump, so your are wrong on that account.
It is located in the Southern Pacific, not located on someones rear end. so you are wrong on that account.
So if being wrong on all issues is being right, then keeping being right.

So you are sinking to my level, what sheeple! do you not have the constitution to be your own person and have the fortitude to stand by your own standards.

Why do you not offer your BS to counter my BS, or do have you to be told what to say by the shepherd.

[prorefco]

Ok, I give up, barbar is right... NZ's government model need's to be adopted by the rest of the world because it's the only model that works or has ever worked. It works soo perfectly that one would not even know they are being governed. It's perfect, what more could anyone ever want...

And barbar is such a perfect guy too... He is all knowing of everything... Not only that, he's kind, attentive, never makes a mistake; why, he's perfect... So, let's all hear it for barbar and new zealand... They're all perfect and live in a perfect world there.... I'm sorry barbar that I ever aruged with you.... I should have known better....

[barbar]

Ok, I give up, barbar is right... NZ's government model need's to be adopted by the rest of the world because it's the only model that works or has ever worked. It works soo perfectly that one would not even know they are being governed. It's perfect, what more could anyone ever want...

And barbar is such a perfect guy too... He is all knowing of everything... Not only that, he's kind, attentive, never makes a mistake; why, he's perfect... So, let's all hear it for barbar and new zealand... They're all perfect and live in a perfect world there.... I'm sorry barbar that I ever aruged with you.... I should have known better....

As I am benevolent sheep sh*gger, I say "rise my son" and come out of the wilderness, and embrace beer, barbies and freedom of thought.:cheers:

[coolperfect]

Lets see 39 billion x 4 Quarters = 156 billion,that could more than the GNP of NZ!:grin2: Please note I used the word could.I just though it was a joke that one of our world class companies produces more than your whole country! http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/infopays/rank/PNB2.html This chart is from 2005,I don't think your GNP went up 30% since.Also Apple is expanding Which I did not take into account. When you post stuff we like to see links,it gives the person a bit of credibility,your posts are such right?:whistle:

[coolperfect]

I am glad to see that intellectuals are still alive in our industry. What great understanding you have of the world.
Keep up the good work. We may do a few of the same things but in the same industry by no means!

[barbar]

We may do a few of the same things but in the same industry by no means!
My apologies, I thought you were in the heating, ventilation, air conditioning and refrigeration industry. I was wrong thanks for putting me right!

[coolperfect]

My apologies, I thought you were in the heating, ventilation, air conditioning and refrigeration industry. I was wrong thanks for putting me right! yea,but not in huts!

[barbar]

yea,but not in huts!

it is hard in NZ, I am looking forward to have an inside toilet, running water, carpets, central heating systems and of course refrigeration as I am sick of having to forage for food every day!

It gets that bad, that I have lick the road for my breakfast.

On a serious note, yes there are some living in huts (somewhat like your trailer parks but without the wheels) at the moment, as we can not rebuild the housing stock quickly enough after our major earthquakes.

[scrogdog]

So, what was wrong with post 140?

Bush tax cuts were DEMAND side policy.

Ok, back to the brainiac economics discussion. :grin2:

Thought I'd trap Netsalt with it but then no one got it. :gah:

[netsalt]

So, what was wrong with post 140?

Bush tax cuts were DEMAND side policy.

Ok, back to the brainiac economics discussion. :grin2:

Thought I'd trap Netsalt with it but then no one got it. :gah:

Actually I was going to say we were discussing successful ECONOMIC policy not successful political policy which is what the Bush tax cuts were.

[scrogdog]

Actually I was going to say we were discussing successful ECONOMIC policy not successful political policy which is what the Bush tax cuts were.

Pure unadulterated spin.

In your opinion.

[netsalt]

Fact. The Bush tax cuts put alot of money in the top 10%.
Fact. The tax cut on Capital Gains was supposed to spur investment thereby creating jobs
Fact. Job growth under the leadership of GWB was pathetic
Fact, Not spin, the results of this tax cut favored the well heeled (his base) and did nothing for the job market.

The same hymn is being sung now. Give more tax cuts for the job creators and all will be well. When is enough enough, they got the tax cuts, where are the jobs. No more excuses, I will sign up for the program if it works but it hasn't and won't. Corporations are sitting on a ton of cash as are the most wealthy and all we hear are excuses concerning jobs. If it works - it works if it doesn't obviously another method should be tried.

[Six]

Fact. The Bush tax cuts put alot of money in the top 10%.
Fact. The tax cut on Capital Gains was supposed to spur investment thereby creating jobs
Fact. Job growth under the leadership of GWB was pathetic
Fact, Not spin, the results of this tax cut favored the well heeled (his base) and did nothing for the job market.

The same hymn is being sung now. Give more tax cuts for the job creators and all will be well. When is enough enough, they got the tax cuts, where are the jobs. No more excuses, I will sign up for the program if it works but it hasn't and won't. Corporations are sitting on a ton of cash as are the most wealthy and all we hear are excuses concerning jobs. If it works - it works if it doesn't obviously another method should be tried.


Corporations are holding on to their reserves for a reason. It might have something to di with the eat the rich anti corporate mantra coming out of Washington.

Whats your alternative to putting the money back in the private sector ? Giving it to Washington for re distrubirion to potential voters sisnt working too well.

[scrogdog]

Fact. The Bush tax cuts put alot of money in the top 10%.
Fact. The tax cut on Capital Gains was supposed to spur investment thereby creating jobs
Fact. Job growth under the leadership of GWB was pathetic
Fact, Not spin, the results of this tax cut favored the well heeled (his base) and did nothing for the job market.

The same hymn is being sung now. Give more tax cuts for the job creators and all will be well. When is enough enough, they got the tax cuts, where are the jobs. No more excuses, I will sign up for the program if it works but it hasn't and won't. Corporations are sitting on a ton of cash as are the most wealthy and all we hear are excuses concerning jobs. If it works - it works if it doesn't obviously another method should be tried.

If they were as such, why were they renewed on Obama's watch?

FACT: GWB job growth as a monthly average has outperformed Obama so far.

Your facts ARE spin. Pure and simple.

Try using google. Might help your sorry view of what a fact is.

[netsalt]

Yes the Google is your friend.
http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/01c-bush-vs-obama-job-growth.jpg

[scrogdog]

Typical spinster.

I state things in terms of a monthly average, and in an attempt to misdirect, what I said was not addressed but rather a post taking a new path.

Nice job, spin boy.

Got a graph on the average?

[k-fridge]

Yes the Google is your friend.
http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/01c-bush-vs-obama-job-growth.jpg
Now let's tell the whole story...



Incidentally, the US has now generated 3 million jobs since the trough of the recession in September 2010, until which point it had previously lost 8 million. Unfortunately, since the real labor force has grown by 4.6 million over the same period, or at the conventionally accepeted 90,000 labor pool entrants per month for 51 months, despite what the BLS may say, because America is after all growing, this means that the Obama administration has created a negative 1.6 million jobs net of demographics, which in turn have cost the US a modest $5.1 trillion in new debt, or an even modest $3.1 million in debt for every job lost.

[scrogdog]

Pardon me while I squash the antics of a spinster who has a hard time dealing with facts or even realizing what a fact actually is.

http://mollysmiddleamerica.blogspot.com/2012/04/job-growth-higher-under-obama-than-bush.html

http://jerrykhachoyan.com/job-creation-under-obama-has-actually-been-solid/

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/in-bush-v-obama-bush-wins-in-a-rout/

I have a couple a google pages more if those won't do.

[netsalt]

Bush took office and there were approximately111,600,000 people employed in the private sector. At the end of his first term in 2004 there were only approximately110,600,000 a loss of about 1,000,000 jobs. Averages would be convenient way of making a bad situation look reasonable. Fact is at the end of each term the Shrub served the job numbers were worse than when he started. No graph needed the results are clear the cuts did not increase the number of jobs in either of the Bush terms.

[scrogdog]

Bush took office and there were approximately111,600,000 people employed in the private sector. At the end of his first term in 2004 there were only approximately110,600,000 a loss of about 1,000,000 jobs. Averages would be convenient way of making a bad situation look reasonable. Fact is at the end of each term the Shrub served the job numbers were worse than when he started. No graph needed the results are clear the cuts did not increase the number of jobs in either of the Bush terms.

Ok, so we have facts and you have spin.

Fine, just so we know what you're about on the field of debate.

Further, your post did not address my statement in a clear tactic of avoidance.

[netsalt]

So it is not a fact that at the end of each Bush term there were fewer private sector jobs? I like that Molly from the first link!

[Six]

Big impressive looking graphics that overlook real data are only going to appeal to the easily manipulated and easily entertained.

You really thought that was going to work here ?

Took. whole 3 minutes to blow it out of the water with objective truthful data.

[scrogdog]

So it is not a fact that at the end of each Bush term there were fewer private sector jobs? I like that Molly from the first link!

Sure. But look at the whole picture, would you?

Neither Bush OR Obama have performed well on this front. So, your point is what exactly?

http://reflectionsofarationalrepublican.com/2012/02/03/bush-vs-obama-unemployment-january-2012-jobs-data/

I'm not saying GOP policy is any better. Frankly, they all haven't a clue and it seems you are right on board with them.

[scrogdog]

I also contend that you average American has the wrong idea about what Bush's tax cuts actually do.

The terms of the debate can be misleading. Because of the way tax brackets work, extending the cuts for $250,000 and below doesn't limit them to people making that amount in total. It simply means that the first $250,000 of your income is taxed at the lower level - regardless of how much you make in total. Phrasing it as "taxes on people making less than $250,000" implies that people making more than that get nothing out of it, which is not true. On the other hand, I'm not sure that most Americans really have the faintest idea how tax brackets work in any event.

That's because most listen to politicians rather than economists. Economists realize that economic policy is not partisan as most politicians would ask you to believe.

Someone like spin boy here will say that Supply Side is bad but Obama is doing it right.

Darn it! If it weren't for the unfornuate fact that any success Obama has had was due to the stimulus. The largest piece of trickle down ever conceived.

So, I guess the end message is "Supply side sucks unless liberals do it".

[netsalt]

My point was that the Bush dividend tax cuts do not and can not produce economic benefits to the vast majority of Americans in the way of creating jobs. It was a political move to pander to his base not a way to improve life for the people struggling to find a job.

[ControlsInMT]

My point was that the Bush dividend tax cuts do not and can not produce economic benefits to the vast majority of Americans in the way of creating jobs. It was a political move to pander to his base not a way to improve life for the people struggling to find a job.

Stimulate jobs, no. Provide some relief, yes. The goal was not to create jobs from it.:gah:

[netsalt]

I think you are right in that most Americans don't understand the way a progressive tax is structured but the main source of income for the wealthy is in the form of capital gains not wages.

[netsalt]

Stimulate jobs, no. Provide some relief, yes. The goal was not to create jobs from it.:gah:

Then why is it the answer to the job creation problem now? If it isn't someone should let the party boss know.http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/may/11/john-boehner/john-boehner-says-bush-tax-cuts-created-8-million-/

[ControlsInMT]

ask your fearless muslim how the stimulus worked...

[ControlsInMT]

same principle

[chaard]

Government does not create jobs!!! You can blame Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush 1 & 2 and Obama. The only thing they can do is try and manipulate the economy and consumer confidence. That's all.:gah:

[Six]

My point was that the Bush dividend tax cuts do not and can not produce economic benefits to the vast majority of Americans in the way of creating jobs. It was a political move to pander to his base not a way to improve life for the people struggling to find a job.

So by your reasoning raising capital gains taxs will have no effect on a anemic economy.

I double dog datre the Democrats to do that. We will never have ti deal with the likes of Obama again.

Lowering capital gains tax keeps private money in the economy instead of sending it to a bloated government to pay for bankrupr green energy companies.

If the investors chose not to invest their capital because the president is a socialist fool who likes to demonize the rich to curry fa or from the fringe then its Obamas fault not theirs.

[netsalt]

So by your reasoning raising capital gains taxs will have no effect on a anemic economy.

I double dog datre the Democrats to do that. We will never have ti deal with the likes of Obama again.

Lowering capital gains tax keeps private money in the economy instead of sending it to a bloated government to pay for bankrupr green energy companies.

If the investors chose not to invest their capital because the president is a socialist fool who likes to demonize the rich to curry fa or from the fringe then its Obamas fault not theirs.

Like I said the Bush capital gains tax cuts were political and had no significant impact on middle America and you're absolutely right the wealthy will crucify anyone who tries to make them pay their fair share.

[scrogdog]

Like I said the Bush capital gains tax cuts were political and had no significant impact on middle America and you're absolutely right the wealthy will crucify anyone who tries to make them pay their fair share.

Yes they did or else they would not have been renewed. Even then they were not renewed properly, in my opinion. What should be happening is short extensions with the goal of weening America off of them.

The problem with additional tax on capitol gains is a similar issue to the loss of American manufacturing jobs.

It sure sounded good to have all these benefits and great working conditions. But, what happened as a result? Greedy manufacturers, you know, kind of a human thing there... even the so called American Dream is based on greed in some respects, moved thier businesses to countries that have slave labor in comparison.

Who was the winner here? America? Sure felt like the right thing to do when we did it though.

A higher tax on the rich could cause them to move elsewhere resulting in a net loss of revenue no matter what tax laws are enacted. The people WITH the money must be motivated to keep it in the economy. That's what favoring the rich in certain aspects does. It drives the economy. But, put the wrong spin on it and it sounds REALLY REALLY bad!

Enact a higher capitol gains tax and make everyone feel good! Yay! We win!!

Oh, wait...

[prorefco]

You guys are still trying to convert the lib commies here?? Ha, we win & they lose....

73

[Six]

I agree its a lost cause but its good fun. Hard to beleive that the hords of blind allegiant Obama apologist are represented in a industry that takes inteligence, objectuve analysis and the ability to recognize repeating patterns to be successful.

[ControlsInMT]

:pop::couch:::DD:

[prorefco]

I agree its a lost cause but its good fun. Hard to beleive that the hords of blind allegiant Obama apologist are represented in a industry that takes inteligence, objectuve analysis and the ability to recognize repeating patterns to be successful.

Ya got that right....

[scrogdog]

Well, this is getting pretty funny on the world stage.

Just yesterday, what were we reading?

France elects a socialist! Greece wants to go socialist!

The first sentence of most of the articles stated "in a solid move against austerity, Europe appears to be moving in this direction, blah, blah, blah"

Here's todays headlines from CNN;

European voters revolt against austerity, cuts! (http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/08/world/europe/europe-revolt/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)

So, this is pretty much how I see it and this comes right from that link; The French turfed out the president who wanted to make them more competitive and less indebted -- and voted for a candidate pledged to reversing the recent rise in the retirement age.

What the F are these people thinking? It's like saying, ok honey, we can't afford the rent but maybe if we buy a flat screen TV with the rent money it will stimulate the economy!

This is what I fear from the American socialist movement. Wanting to do everything that sounds good and makes you tingle with delight and no way to pay for it.

Anyone here think that the way to fix the US social security issues is NOT to raise the age and contribution limits? That's just basic math, right?

But I guess the Euro's don't get basic math, or something. How can you rail against cuts and austerity and expect that everything is just going to become ok? Who has the magic wand?

[Six]

Well, this is getting pretty funny on the world stage.

Just yesterday, what were we reading?

France elects a socialist! Greece wants to go socialist!

The first sentence of most of the articles stated "in a solid move against austerity, Europe appears to be moving in this direction, blah, blah, blah"

Here's todays headlines from CNN;

European voters revolt against austerity, cuts! (http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/08/world/europe/europe-revolt/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)

So, this is pretty much how I see it and this comes right from that link; The French turfed out the president who wanted to make them more competitive and less indebted -- and voted for a candidate pledged to reversing the recent rise in the retirement age.

What the F are these people thinking? It's like saying, ok honey, we can't afford the rent but maybe if we buy a flat screen TV with the rent money it will stimulate the economy!

This is what I fear from the American socialist movement. Wanting to do everything that sounds good and makes you tingle with delight and no way to pay for it.

Anyone here think that the way to fix the US social security issues is NOT to raise the age and contribution limits? That's just basic math, right?

But I guess the Euro's don't get basic math, or something. How can you rail against cuts and austerity and expect that everything is just going to become ok? Who has the magic wand?


Ive been keeping an eye on the Eurozone dilema for a while now . The potential economoc impact of tossing austerity aside is going to have world wide

[netsalt]

Keep in mind what caused this problem. People all over had gotten used to the creature comforts the bubble economy provided, most were not at fault and paid their debts but the small amount that didn't caused the house of cards to fall. There has got to be a better way, the current system pits the greed of the underclass against the greed of the upperclass with both sides playing against the middle. Doesn't anyone wonder how such a small amount of mortgage defaults (in proportion to the total lent) can freeze the system and break the buck? Most don't know.

[scrogdog]

Keep in mind what caused this problem. People all over had gotten used to the creature comforts the bubble economy provided, most were not at fault and paid their debts but the small amount that didn't caused the house of cards to fall. There has got to be a better way, the current system pits the greed of the underclass against the greed of the upperclass with both sides playing against the middle. Doesn't anyone wonder how such a small amount of mortgage defaults (in proportion to the total lent) can freeze the system and break the buck? Most don't know.

Thats' why in this particular case a bottom up stimulus would have been my preference over the top down one that was enacted.

Most would have chosen to pay down or off thier debt. A few would not have. But, overall, there's your bank bail out right there. All of a sudden they have a bunch of cash to lend out again.

The real issue with the economy is how consumer confidence may or may not be affected before election time. Of course, if we had politicians that actually cared about America rather than thier own ass, the election would not be a factor.

As it stands, most of the investment articles I've been reading say it's almost time to bail and get safe, which will also suck for both investors and the economy. The reason? Because by the time Congress thinks its time to tackle it again, they'll have about 8 weeks before some rather painful automatic cuts are enacted.

Most don't think they can do it in 8 months much less 8 weeks. The end of the year will be bad I think.

[scrogdog]

Great. Now time for the next bail out I guess;

38 billion to bail out the US Postal Service (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/08/it-all-your-money-us-postal-service-bailout/?test=latestnews)

Such a useful place that we can't do without!

[Tommy1010]

Because he left Obama with a real sad economy

we been hearing that for 3.5 years now

the bush economy left us with gas at 1.79 a gallon

maybe you need to study that fact

[prorefco]

Ya know, Bush wasn't to everyone's liking however, the obamster stated in his 2008 campain that he would have all these paoblems fixed within 4 years. It's now 3-1/2 years into his term and absolutely nothing has gotten any better, only worse... And he's still blaming Bush...

So, now my question is, exactly when will he stop blaming Bush and start taking responsibility for his own actions?

He also stated that if things were no better within 4 years, he would be a one term president. Now he's saying he DESERVES anotehr term... Go figure...

[Six]

Net salts post on subprime was absent of some specific and crucial information. It was more than kust a couple of lenders not paying their debts.

The suvprime debacle was systemic, world wide and left us at the precipice of complete sociatal collapse around Oct 2008.

Politicians pushed for years for the lowering of lending standards claiming the banks were only offering mortgages to white proffesionals. Through the community reinvestment act banks were forced under pressure to lower their lending standards.

In order to protect their assets banks sold off those mortgages and governmental entity ( Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ) bundled them and sold them to investment banks who inturn continued to circulate those toxic derivitaves.

That created the secondary market known as the Sub Prime market.. As long as hpusong prices went up and home values invreased everybody made money. Even the home owner as he borrowed against new magic appear out of nowhere equity to buy more crap.

Funny thing what caused every bodies home prices to go up was the sub prime market that was built on worthless paper. It was only a matter of time. Easy credit and bad lenders and lendees just added more toxic paper to the mix.

Remember where this started. Investment banks bought and sold this worthless paper as derivitives and there is usually a min time they have to hold that paper before it gets passed on to the next portfolio

Around October 2008 the housing industries decline was evident enough that all of these derivatives couldnt be sold again. Major investment banks got stuck holding billlions in toxic MBS.Woeth more than ever asset they owned.

If someone didnt step in then on the following Monday banks all over the world werw going to declare massive losses on the same day. People had bo idea.

Imagine getring up and going to the gas station and your card doesnt work. Or ATMs all over your city quit spitting out cash or you couldnt access your bank account. Imagine that times a couple of hundred million people. We were days away from that. Days away from massive riots and unrest as people panicked to get supplies they needed for their families with no money.

Ive read that the government was prepairing for instituting martial law that monday if a deal didnt go through that weekend.The deal they came up with was TARP.

[Six]

There is more. Govt regulations stated that investment banks had to back low grade securities with capital so they bought credit defaupt swaps to hedge their holdings. ( insurance )

The company that held most of the these short term CDSs was AIG who when the bottom fell out couldn' t pay a fraction of those claims. AIG was going to go bankrupt along with thousands of banking institutions that got stuck with toxic mortgage backed securities.

All on the same day. AIG is a massive multinational coproation that was heavy into commercial building investment.

Just their loss alone would send shockwaves through our economy. Add to that the stock market falling 600 points and its a perfect storm scenario.

Lots of blame to go around sure but what started it ? Politicians pandering to their constituents pushing social and economic justice.

[netsalt]

Thanks for the long form, agreed there was more to the equation but how does this relate to less regulation in the banking industry which seems to be one of the prime objectives of conservative thought? The MERS system is but one of the artifacts of the housing bubble that has not been dealt with. Given time the same thing will happen again - the greed has only been temporarily suppressed if we don't reign in the banksters.

[hearthman]

Actually, republicans have been trying since 2002 to reel in Fannie & Freddie but Barney Frank and Chris Dodd blocked it saying there was nothing to worry about. Their testimony is public. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRpAn0ToV04

Sure, plenty of blame to go around since the RHINO's played along with the dummycrats to run interference with the financial crooks who then gave campaign contribution kickbacks.

Add in the Community Reinvestment Act, which forced banks to make bad ultra low interest loans to minorities (primarily blacks) to buy votes knowing there would be hell to pay, which we're in now. These bad loans were bundled with good loans and so-so loans as 'derivatives' and other very complex securities that were sold to pension funds by Goldman-Sachs and others. When the bubble burst, everything collapsed except for the few pirates who were left holding the cash. Obama tried to protect companines that serviced debts but Congress took it out of a bill. Lots of corruption to go around--they ALL should be in orange jumpsuits behind bars IMHO.

[Six]

All that information and you BLAME THE BANKERS ? I dont share your generic hatred of bankers and profit.
Barney Frank was one of the worst offenders arguing for lower standards for lending. He was complicit to a large degree in the sub- prime meltdown bullying lenders to loan to just about anyone. And he and Chris Dodd wrote the legislation to stop this from ever happening again ? HE WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN THE FAILURE OF THE SUB PRIME INDUSTRY.

There is one common trait shared by liberals. They lack information and the humility to rexamine their ideology. Everone else is wrong.

You blame the banks but why hasnt this happened before ? Because banks adhered to their lending standards without government intrusion or mandates to lower standards.

Sure there were predatory lenders but there were buyers who lied, cheated and gave false information to get into a home they couldnt afford. People flipping houses and people taking out two and three mortgages on their houses to buy crap they dont need and used the instant equity the housing bubble gave them as collateral.

But its the bankers fault ? lol......

I gave you a reasonable explanation of what happened back then and why it had little two do with a couple of missed mortgage payments and you give me some 99% horse sh**.

Investmemt banks knew the crash was coming and so did the politicians. Fannie and Fresdie were bundling mortgages to sell to Wall Street as derivitives.

But blame the banks ?

[Six]

Actually, republicans have been trying since 2002 to reel in Fannie & Freddie but Barney Frank and Chris Dodd blocked it saying there was nothing to worry about. Their testimony is public. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRpAn0ToV04

Sure, plenty of blame to go around since the RHINO's played along with the dummycrats to run interference with the financial crooks who then gave campaign contribution kickbacks.

Add in the Community Reinvestment Act, which forced banks to make bad ultra low interest loans to minorities (primarily blacks) to buy votes knowing there would be hell to pay, which we're in now. These bad loans were bundled with good loans and so-so loans as 'derivatives' and other very complex securities that were sold to pension funds by Goldman-Sachs and others. When the bubble burst, everything collapsed except for the few pirates who were left holding the cash. Obama tried to protect companines that serviced debts but Congress took it out of a bill. Lots of corruption to go around--they ALL should be in orange jumpsuits behind bars IMHO.

Great post Hearthman. Its lost on our liberal friend.

[netsalt]

So you expect me to believe when investors were clamoring for these mortgage backed securities the banks were blameless for buying up every note companies such as Country Wide could sell them. There is one common trait shared by conservatives. They lack information and the humility to reexamine their ideology. Everyone else is wrong.

[Six]

Investors typically rely on their brokers to make investments for them. The bundling and selling of mortgages was done by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to a large degree. A haven for ex democrat politicians .

With out that there would be no secondary market and no subprime melt down. If not for politicians like Barney Frank who forced the lowering of underwriting standardd there would have been no sub prime.

Did you not read hearthmans post ? His links ?

The investment banks blew it because they knew that it eventually was going ti collapse abd didnt di anythinternally to stop it.

If your an investment bank and you in one day unload all of your securites what dies that do to the market ?

[netsalt]

You guys obviously need a less slanted view of how stuff works, so here is a link http://money.howstuffworks.com/mortgage-backed-security.htm

[scrogdog]

You guys obviously need a less slanted view of how stuff works, so here is a link http://money.howstuffworks.com/mortgage-backed-security.htm

I suppose.

Now if only that link actually challenged anything Heartman or Commtech said.

[netsalt]

If you read the the entire article you would notice there is no mention of D vs R. The facts are the facts, investment banks got greedy regardless of any political decision made by either party. 125% equity and no doc loans were not mandated by the government. But in typical fashion the far right will use any catastrophe to score political points. (to be fair the far left has been known to do this also)

[scrogdog]

I beleive it has already been acknowledged that banks were complicit.

If you read the entire posts.

[netsalt]

All that information and you BLAME THE BANKERS ? I dont share your generic hatred of bankers and profit.
Barney Frank was one of the worst offenders arguing for lower standards for lending. He was complicit to a large degree in the sub- prime meltdown bullying lenders to loan to just about anyone. And he and Chris Dodd wrote the legislation to stop this from ever happening again ? HE WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN THE FAILURE OF THE SUB PRIME INDUSTRY.

There is one common trait shared by liberals. They lack information and the humility to rexamine their ideology. Everone else is wrong.

You blame the banks but why hasnt this happened before ? Because banks adhered to their lending standards without government intrusion or mandates to lower standards.

Sure there were predatory lenders but there were buyers who lied, cheated and gave false information to get into a home they couldnt afford. People flipping houses and people taking out two and three mortgages on their houses to buy crap they dont need and used the instant equity the housing bubble gave them as collateral.

But its the bankers fault ? lol......

I gave you a reasonable explanation of what happened back then and why it had little two do with a couple of missed mortgage payments and you give me some 99% horse sh**.

Investmemt banks knew the crash was coming and so did the politicians. Fannie and Fresdie were bundling mortgages to sell to Wall Street as derivitives.

But blame the banks ?

Really? Acknowledgement? I'm done here.

[Six]

Really? Acknowledgement? I'm done here.

Just because I dont blindly buy into the 99% eat the rich evil bankers nonsense doesnt mean I dont fault the investment banks.
They had a hand in it sure but it was after the fact after an entire industry was created for the express purpose of getting people into mortgages they wouldnt normally qualify for.

The banks didnt initiate the sub prime market, politicians did. Namely politicians who claimed people were being treated unfairly and used the rhetoric of social justice to lower standards.


Imagine that. People that had low credit or no credit defaulting on a loan. Go figure.

My question to you is have banks always been evil or did they just start being evil in the last decade ?

Getting a mortgage used to take a good credit history and a down payment.