How do I find qualified HVAC pro to install mini-split?

[rcstevensonaz]

How would I go about finding qualified HVAC professional to install a Mitsubishi mini-split system for our house in Mesa, AZ?

To be very clear: this is not a DYI and I am NOT looking for low-ball bidder. I want a qualified, licensed professional who will do excellent work installing and starting up the system. I will pay them them accordingly for their time, knowledge and experience.

So far, I am only finding companies that sell and install equipment. I'm not sure how to find individuals (or companies) that that will do this work without also selling the equipment.

Thanks,
Craig

p.s., yes, aware that the contractor cannot take responsibility for equipment provided by the home owner.

[beb]

Most contractors will not install owner supplied equiptment. Just keep calling and you will find someone.

[skippedover]

I doubt you'll ever find a Mitsubishi dealer to install something they didn't purchase for you specifically. We're a Diamond Dealer and you can find all the dealers, Diamond or otherwise on the Mr. Slim website. But anybody who knows the Mr. Slim is highly trained and not about to give away their profits so a homeowner can save money. IMO, any company that does that is a sucker for perpetuating and industry where labor becomes the only basis for work. So I hope you don't succeed in finding a Mr. Slim dealer to install your owner supplied product. So drag out the yellow pages and find some hack who doesn't care to install it. That's all you want to pay anyway.

[Stamas]

If you could see the amount of money spent in training and providing the resources to the crew to be able to competently install and service Mitsubishi systems you may understand what Skippedover's point really is. These costs add to the margins we must use but they benefit you, the customer ultimately. Your doing yourself a disservice by trying to save a few bucks. You'll end up paying more than if you just went about it the right way to begin with.
You notice I didn't say "professionally". Anyone who you find will be a "professional".
Soon it will get to be contractors will start limiting the brands they will service, some already do, it is getting to that point.

"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

John Ruskin"

[dan sw fl]

To be very clear: this is not a DYI and I am NOT looking for low-ball bidder.

So far, I am only finding companies that sell and install equipment. I'm not sure how to find individuals (or companies) that that will do this work without also selling the equipment.

Thanks,
Craig

p.s., yes, aware that the contractor cannot take responsibility for equipment provided by the home owner.

To be Very Clear: since your overall plan is well thought out,
you won't need to
Significantly complicate
the issue by dealing with more than one party.

Contact a firm who will back the total installation for a number of years.

Otherwise, your "guarantee" lasts as long as it takes to deposit your check at the - non-professional's- bank.

[precision hvac]

You won't find any professionals here who support homeowners purchasing equipment on the internet.

[wahoo]

I'd recommend contacting a local tech. school, get into a class and get your certifications, and then purchase what tools it will take to install this yourself. After a "few" mistakes, you'll have it done and be much more "in tune" with what it requires. Actually this route will probably be the quickest as you've probably found by now. It is really difficult to find a true professional who is not busy installing and servicing what he sells. Me? I'd train myself before I'd hire a hack. Good luck.

P.S. Have you contacted the company who sold you the equipment?

[SandShark]

I doubt you'll ever find a Mitsubishi dealer to install something they didn't purchase for you specifically. We're a Diamond Dealer and you can find all the dealers, Diamond or otherwise on the Mr. Slim website. But anybody who knows the Mr. Slim is highly trained and not about to give away their profits so a homeowner can save money. IMO, any company that does that is a sucker for perpetuating and industry where labor becomes the only basis for work. So I hope you don't succeed in finding a Mr. Slim dealer to install your owner supplied product. So drag out the yellow pages and find some hack who doesn't care to install it. That's all you want to pay anyway.Diamond, Mitsubishi, Lennox, LG, Sanyo, Friedrich and others sell their mini-split systems directly to homeowners through online websites. If that's the case, how can you say Mitsubishi "is highly trained and not about to give away their profits so a homeowner can save money"? They're selling the equipment on the Internet to anybody with cash. They don't care about you. Not to mention, Goodman, Rheem, Amana and others sell central A/C split systems and package units to homeowners through online websites. How can any of you be a dealer for one of these companies when they are out to cut your throats? Is there something I'm missing here?

[rcstevensonaz]

While I understand the concerns you raise, what I hear is that you are all anxiously trying to protect a business model that guarantees multiple sources of profit (hardware and software).

I have my cars serviced by a well trained auto mechanic (been in the business for decades) who has all of the equipment, tools and access to the Honda service bulletins.

My Honda dealer tells that I am at very great risk if my car is serviced by anyone other than *that dealership*. Oddly enough, my auto mechanic has never tried to convince me that he can only service cars that he sells and he has never turned away the chance to work on vehicles that he did not personally drive off the delivery truck, prep and clean.

The air conditioner deal quote consists of:
Equipment Cost + Equipment Profit
Install Cost + Install Profit

I do not understand why the installer has to pocket both sets of profit.

-- Craig

p.s. The "quote" is only as good as when I sign the receipt that the work was completed and write the check. That is less than 25 minutes and less time than it takes to reach the bank. That is why I will pay full rate for the work done and why I am not looking for a low-ball bid.

p.p.s. I've been quoted $XXXX for a simple mini-split where the lineset is already in place and power is 10' from the outside compressor site. Forgive me, but $XXXX installation to cover your "training" and "certification" seems a bit excessive for one of these units.

[rcstevensonaz]

Diamond, Mitsubishi, Lennox, LG, Sanyo, Friedrich and others sell their mini-split systems directly to homeowners through online websites. If that's the case, how can you say Mitsubishi "is highly trained and not about to give away their profits so a homeowner can save money"? They're selling the equipment on the Internet to anybody with cash. They don't care about you. Not to mention, Goodman, Rheem, Amana and others sell central A/C split systems and package units to homeowners through online websites. How can any of you be a dealer for one of these companies when they are out to cut your throats? Is there something I'm missing here?

What you are missing is that virtually all of the manufactures state that their warrant is void for Internet sales.

You can buy the equipment on the Internet; but those manufactures may refuse to provide any warranty. Actual terms and conditions vary between the vendors with Fujitsu appearing to draw the strongest line.

But, none of the vendors are trying to push their systems on the Internet and all of the vendors are supporting the "qualified contractor" route (as supported by the responders to my post).

[wahoo]

Rheems, Amana, Lennox, Goodman, Rudd, as far as I know NONE of these companies sell direct to the homeowner over the internet. All the internet sales are done by internet marketing companies and yes, it voids the original manufacterer's warranty if HO purchases over internet. The real problem with the installation comes about when the HO tries to find a qualified person to install. As evidenced in this posting.:gah:

[rcstevensonaz]

If you could see the amount of money spent in training and providing the resources to the crew to be able to competently install and service Mitsubishi systems you may understand what Skippedover's point really is.

I wish you could see the number of times I've contacted the 'professional' listed on the manufacture's site only to spend most of the time educating them on the product line for that manufacture.

So far, I've know more about the Fujitsu or Mitsubishi mini-split system than the 'professional' who showed up.

[Stamas]

I wish you could see the number of times I've contacted the 'professional' listed on the manufacture's site only to spend most of the time educating them on the product line for that manufacture.

So far, I've know more about the Fujitsu or Mitsubishi mini-split system than the 'professional' who showed up.


That pertained to my co. and a some that I know from this site. I would venture that most if not all you contacted are not from this site. We do have a map if you care to see if one of them meets your standards, (are you an engineer by chance?)
Oh and next time your Honda needs service, have them come to your house to work on it. It is not all apples here.

[SandShark]

What you are missing is that virtually all of the manufactures state that their warrant is void for Internet sales.

You can buy the equipment on the Internet; but those manufactures may refuse to provide any warranty. Actual terms and conditions vary between the vendors with Fujitsu appearing to draw the strongest line.

But, none of the vendors are trying to push their systems on the Internet and all of the vendors are supporting the "qualified contractor" route (as supported by the responders to my post).Semantics. Even if the Internet seller and/or the manufacturer require evidence that a licensed & qualified contractor do the installation in order to validate the warranty, they're still taking equipment sales away from contractors and by doing so, they're cutting contractor throats. If I were in business for myself, there's no way in hell I'd sell/install any manufacturer's equipment who sells their equipment to retailers on the Internet.

To the OP, I apologize for hijacking your thread. Good luck with your installation. Carry on.

[rcstevensonaz]

... If I were in business for myself, there's no way in hell I'd sell/install any manufacturer's equipment who sells their equipment to retailers on the Internet.

To the OP, I apologize for hijacking your thread. Good luck with your installation. Carry on.

It all depends on your business model.

What if you setup as an independent, highly trained contractor. Help your client find the lowest cost deal for equipment from a reputable internet wholesaler that you work closely with (or even a local wholesaler). They have equipment shipped direct to their home BUT they are not allowed to open anything. Then you charge $ to $ per hour for installation.

Your overhead is just licensing, bonding, insurance, training, and tools. No shop owner taking the bulk of the profit.

While your buddies are trying to fight each other over $ to $ contracts with huge overhead and sales departments and expensive shops, you are signing up four times as many clients because you kept the cost down (eliminated middleman and overhead) and deliver amazing results.

Strikes me as a great business model — pure profit for someone who is otherwise retired and wants to run a home-based business (except the unions won't like it).

p.s. yes, I am an engineer. I often buy very complex equipment from distributors and then pay top dollar (often more than the equipment cost) to highly skilled professions to install, configure and customize.

[beshvac]

It all depends on your business model.

What if you setup as an independent, highly trained contractor. Help your client find the lowest cost deal for equipment from a reputable internet wholesaler that you work closely with (or even a local wholesaler). They have equipment shipped direct to their home BUT they are not allowed to open anything. Then you charge $ to $ per hour for installation.

Your overhead is just licensing, bonding, insurance, training, and tools. No shop owner taking the bulk of the profit.

While your buddies are trying to fight each other over $ to $ contracts with huge overhead and sales departments and expensive shops, you are signing up four times as many clients because you kept the cost down (eliminated middleman and overhead) and deliver amazing results.

Strikes me as a great business model — pure profit for someone who is otherwise retired and wants to run a home-based business (except the unions won't like it).

p.s. yes, I am an engineer. I often buy very complex equipment from distributors and then pay top dollar (often more than the equipment cost) to highly skilled professions to install, configure and customize.

Then you know what you are going to pay for, problem solved.....let us know when you find the "bubba" that gives you amazing results :) I am an engineer too, and your're not gonna find me putting in someone elses crap and taking responsibility for it :)

[rcstevensonaz]

I am an engineer too, and your're not gonna find me putting in someone elses crap and taking responsibility for it :)

You are saying Mitsubishi mini-splits are crap?

[beshvac]

No, they might be the most awesome mechanical equipment made on the planet.....but if I didn't buy it down the street, they are gonna look at me like I have a third ......hole.....

[wahoo]

acsteve...I've gotta chime in and remind you of my advice in post #7. Or simply go to craig's list and hope for the best. I suspect you're actually a HVAC contractor trolling to see if your own employees will "moonlight" an install. Good luck!:cheers:

[beenthere]

Mr5pin, this is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise here. Please apply to the AOPC today, thank you.

You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=957002).


Further infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.

[rcstevensonaz]

acsteve...I've gotta chime in and remind you of my advice in post #7. Or simply go to craig's list and hope for the best. I suspect you're actually a HVAC contractor trolling to see if your own employees will "moonlight" an install. Good luck!:cheers:

Not sure what you mean "acsteve", but assume you were talking about me.

No, I am not a trolling HVAC contractor -- if I was, I would not have sent email to FirebirdAC (name from the contractor list) to see if they did this type of work.

No, I don't want a hack. No, I don't have time to go to school for HVAC.

I'm not against have my car serviced by the auto dealer; but I have been able to find amazing auto mechanics where I deal with the same person every time over 15 years. I like that model. It seems that the HVAC world does not have a similar model.

And to be honest, I am very happy to buy the equipment from the person doing the install if their pricing model is not grossly exaggerated. But, as noted above, I am also very happy to pay top dollar to a very qualified professional who will work as an independent installer.

Alas, it seems that my only option is to pay some company horribly exaggerated prices or go on Craig's list and find a hack. I don't like either option. And, it is clear you are all on the side of horribly exaggerated prices.

[wahoo]

Okay rc, here is the "rub". Most of these pros on this site work in this business every day. After all the dust settles and expenses come out we might clear a dime from ever dollar.....yep, one dime. And if we really made the "horrible exaggerated" money you claim we charge, then why would we still be in this business?? Our overhead is horrible, and the prices we have to charge hopefully compensate for that overhead...hopefully. A dime net profit is easily lost, and in the case of HVAC equipment purchased over the internet..it's never made in the first place!!:gah:

[rcstevensonaz]

Okay rc, here is the "rub". Most of these pros on this site work in this business every day. After all the dust settles and expenses come out we might clear a dime from ever dollar... Our overhead is horrible, and the prices we have to charge hopefully compensate for that overhead...hopefully. A dime net profit is easily lost, and in the case of HVAC equipment purchased over the internet..it's never made in the first place!!:gah:

Wahoo, thanks for this response. This seems like an honest response and doesn't accuse me of wanting a hack to install crap.

In all other areas I've dealt with, two types of business co-existed: Integrated Dealer/Servicer and Independent Servicer. Example Honda Dealer vs. Mike the Mechanic. Both businesses thrive; but each has very different type of services offered and different overhead structures. I use both at different times.

Naively, I assumed that there were independent HVAC service professionals. Based on the response here, it seems that is not the case.

p.s. When I upgraded our whole house split AC system (Carrier Infinity), that was done through a local professional and I would never even think of using an internet purchase for that. That was major installation and I happily spent $$. But, when I have companies quoting virtually the same cost to install a one room mini-split unit when the line set is already in place, something is wrong in Phoenix.... we all know that mounting a wall unit and hooking up the mini-split is a pretty simple job for an HVAC profession (though NOT something I would do on my own). I naively assumed that the mini-split seemed to be a job that any HVAC professional could do without having to sell me the equipment given that they would not be liable for warranty work.

[SandShark]

Wahoo, thanks for this response. This seems like an honest response and doesn't accuse me of wanting a hack to install crap.

In all other areas I've dealt with, two types of business co-existed: Integrated Dealer/Servicer and Independent Servicer. Example Honda Dealer vs. Mike the Mechanic. Both businesses thrive; but each has very different type of services offered and different overhead structures. I use both at different times.

Naively, I assumed that there were independent HVAC service professionals. Based on the response here, it seems that is not the case.

p.s. When I upgraded our whole house split AC system (Carrier Infinity), that was done through a local professional and I would never even think of using an internet purchase for that. That was major installation and I happily spent $$. But, when I have companies quoting virtually the same cost to install a $ mini-split unit when the line set is already in place, something is wrong in Phoenix.... we all know that mounting a wall unit and hooking up the mini-split is a pretty simple job for an HVAC profession (though NOT something I would do on my own). I naively assumed that the mini-split seemed to be a job that any HVAC professional could do without having to sell me the equipment given that they would not be liable for warranty work.Let me play devil's advocate. Assume you find your local independent HVAC service professional and he agrees to install your system with no warranty on his part. He gets everything installed and hooked up, starts the system and everything is working great. Then, a few days later, you notice it's not working the way it did the day it was installed. What do you do? Do you call you local independent HVAC service professional or do you call the Internet equipment seller?

Let's say you call the Internet equipment seller. The conversation goes like this:

You: Hello. The system I bought from you isn't working.

Internet Seller: What's wrong with it?

You: I don't know. It was working fine two days ago, but when I got home today, it wasn't cooling like it should.

Internet Seller: Did you install the system?

You: No. I had a local independent service professional install it for me. The only problem is he didn't offer a warranty on his work.

Internet Seller: Well, that's too bad, because we don't offer service warranties on the equipment we sell, so we don't have anyone to come to your home in order to figure out what's wrong with your system. Besides, we're in Florida and you're in Arizona. Have you tried contacting the local independent service professional who installed the system?

You: No. I haven't because I have no warranty with him.

Internet Seller: I'm sorry, sir. I don't know what you want us to do for you. If a part is bad, we can replace it, but you'll need to send it to us first so we can determine what's wrong with the part.

You: I don't know if a part is bad or not. It just won't cool.

Internet Seller: Well, sir, I suggest you call the local independent service professional who installed the system. Have a nice day!

The phone call to the local independent service professional (LISP) who installed the system goes like this:

You: Hello. Is this my local independent service professional?

LISP: Yes, sir!

You: You installed a mini-split system for me that I bought on the Internet and it's not working today.

LISP: Hmmm...did you check the breaker?

You: Yes. The breaker is not tripped.

LISP: Is the indoor fan running?

You: Yes.

LISP: Is the outdoor unit running?

You: Yes.

LISP: Well, I suggest you turn it off. If there's something wrong with it, you might do further damage to the system by leaving it running.

You: Oh, okay. I turned it off.

LISP: Good.

You: Is that it?

LISP: Is there something else you need?

You: Yes. I need you to come out and see why my mini-split I bought on the Internet isn't cooling.

LISP: Well, we can certainly come out, but it's going to cost you.

You: But, you installed it. It was working 2 days ago and now it's not. You're going to charge me to look at it?

LISP: Yes, sir, we are because we told you when we installed it that there was no warranty for the work we performed and it is written in plain English right on the invoice you agreed to and signed.

You: But, what if it's something you didn't do right.

LISP: As I said, sir, there is no warranty for the work we performed. We told you that from the get-go.

You: What if it's low on refrigerant. Wouldn't that mean you didn't get the lines secured properly.

LISP: That's certainly one possibility. If the system is low on refrigerant, we can put some more refrigerant in it for you, but you'll have to pay for it, along with the labor for the service call.

You: If it has a leak, won't you find the leak and fix the leak first before you put refrigerant in it?

LISP: Well, sure we can look for the leak, find it and fix it, but you'll have to pay for that.

You: If it has a leak, that means you didn't install it correctly.

LISP: That, too, is a possibility, but you'll still have to pay for us to look for the leak, fix the leak and pay for the refrigerant that we put back in the system.

You: How much is that going to cost?

LISP: About the same amount as you paid us the first time. The problem is we're really busy right now installing systems that customers bought from us. We won't be able to make it out for about two weeks.

You: Two weeks? Why you're nothing but a...:censored:

[rcstevensonaz]

Let me play devil's advocate. Assume you find your local independent HVAC service professional and he agrees to install your system with no warranty on his part. He gets everything installed and hooked up, starts the system and everything is working great. Then, a few days later, you notice it's not working the way it did the day it was installed. What do you do? Do you call you local independent HVAC service professional or do you call the Internet equipment seller? ...

Or, let's say the conversation goes like this:

Me: Hey Mike, the AC you installed in the home office is acting strange (the one in the bedroom is running like a champ). I know it is peak season here in Mesa; when do you think you can swing by to take a look at what has gone wrong?

Mike: Hmm, pretty booked with a few jobs. How about next Tuesday?

Me: Well, I lived without this unit for nearly two years; so I think I can handle another 5 days. No worries.

Mike: Also, I don't mean to be crass; but you know I will have to charge you my hourly rate to diagnose it.

Me: Yep, that is exactly what we agreed upon. Your full standard rate of $ per hour. Once you figure out what is wrong, let me know what part(s) you need and what you would charge me for those parts. Depending on the price, I'll either have you order them or I might take care of that.

Mike: Sounds good, see you on Tuesday; I'll call if anything in the schedule opens up.

Me: Cheers. Oh, by the way, I'm also looking at finally replacing the 27-year old package unit on the side addition roof. If you have a few extra minutes while you are out here on Tuesday, feel free to give me a quote for that work as well.

.....

(post script: Mike arrives and says the issue is the main board has gone bad; we take care of it, Mike now has more $ in his pocket and I've still spent less that I've been quoted by several local dealers).

Of coures, this only works if Mike is a professional and not a hack; much like my conversations with my mechanic.

[ga-hvac-tech]

What amazes me is folks who always want to 'go around the system'... never stop arguing.

In my area (Atlanta); heating and AC folks come in two flavors:
*Professionals, who ONLY install what they sell... and
*HACKS who do whatever they can hustle a buck for (most of them are not licensed or insured)... and usually their cell number changes every couple of months.

Now; if one is truly looking for value for their $$$... which one would be the better avenue to hire?

PS: Some business models are the way they are, simply because it is the best way to do business (for ALL parties).

[SandShark]

The problem I see with your scenario is it'll never happen. At least, it won't happen with any contractor I know. Believe me, this is something we in the business have discussed amongst ourselves numerous times and the consensus is that the little money made on doing something like this isn't worth the potential headache it might cause down the road.

Now, all of a sudden, if the majority of homeowners start buying their own equipment, HVAC contractors might have to take a look at their current business model and adapt, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I'm not saying you won't eventually find a contractor to install your mini-split. You probably will if you keep trying. But, I'm just telling you most contractors don't touch these kinds of opportunities, as you can tell from the responses you've gotten in this thread.

By the way, have you tried the contractor who installed your Carrier Infinity system? If not, why not. If so, what was the outcome?

[rcstevensonaz]

The problem I see with your scenario is it'll never happen. At least, it won't happen with any contractor I know. Believe me, this is something we in the business have discussed amongst ourselves numerous times and the consensus is that the little money made on doing something like this isn't worth the potential headache it might cause down the road.

Now, all of a sudden, if the majority of homeowners start buying their own equipment, HVAC contractors might have to take a look at their current business model and adapt, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I'm not saying you won't eventually find a contractor to install your mini-split. You probably will if you keep trying. But, I'm just telling you most contractors don't touch these kinds of opportunities, as you can tell from the responses you've gotten in this thread.

By the way, have you tried the contractor who installed your Carrier Infinity system? If not, why not. If so, what was the outcome?

Sandshark, as noted in my earlier post (before your last one), I acknowledge that I have learned today that the HVAC community only supports Dealer/Servicer business model. Your call; I can appreciate that you choose this model. Was not what I expected; but I understand it.

And yes, the original contractor was one of the first people I called. When they did the work 6 years ago, I was one of his first customers as he started up his new business.

Six years later, his business was booming and now he deals with multi-million dollar homes in Scottsdale with very complex HVAC requirements. They guy was good; and he as done very well..... But, out of my market now.

-- Craig

[Stamas]

Customer, "I have a System I bought online, can you come install and charge me full install rate"?
Contractor, looks at schedule 1st, "Sir, I am booked pretty good and have some openings but I don't want to commit because I don't want to have to turn away a full job and lose money because I'm doing yours so I respectfully decline".
Customer keeps dialing till he finds a contractor who has time between Home Warranty calls and $29 tune ups to come do the install.

BTW, I'm not buying for a minute the prices you claim to have been quoted for the complete sale and install. I think your frustrated by not being able to get your online system installed and came here to complain and bash. Not buying it at all.
Period.

[precision hvac]

As a contractor- I am not ashamed to mark up both materials AND labor. Perhaps you should take a trip to your favorite restaurant this evening & bring your own steak, potatos & vegetables. Oh- I'm sure they will have no issue preparing your meal for you at a very fair labor only price.

Craig's list is about the only place you will find someone to fufill your fantasy.

[rcstevensonaz]

As a contractor- I am not ashamed to mark up both materials AND labor.

Umm... Duh?!?

As a contractor who sells product and installs/services the product, you should not be ashamed to mark up both materials AND labor. It's called running a business.

And in fact, you should be able to mark them up as high as you want (provided all the costs are clearly disclosed up front).

[precision hvac]

You should read your own responses sometime.


The air conditioner deal quote consists of:
Equipment Cost + Equipment Profit
Install Cost + Install Profit

I do not understand why the installer has to pocket both sets of profit.

[rcstevensonaz]

You should read your own responses sometime.

Sigh. There is no contradiction here.


The person selling the EQUIPMENT should gain their profit on equipment sold

The person providing professional SERVICE (e.g. install) should gain profit on the services provided

Example from another industry with very specialized equipment and highly trained professionals... consider setting up a call center for 120 agents.

I will buy extremely complex equipment from a Cisco distributor for $$$. The distributor has clearly marked up the cost of equipment that I purchased (we negotiated; but they are covering overhead and making profit)

I will then have a contract with a consulting company to setup and configure the equipment for $$$$$. The consulting company has marked up the cost of providing the service they provided (we negotiated; but they are covering their overhead and making profit).

Both parties are making profit.

BUT, unlike what I have learned about HVAC industry, the high tech industry does not force you to buy equipment from the same company that is installing and configuring it. But again, each party has made their profit.

{And again, I get that HVAC industry has gathered their wagons around a model that the installer is also the company you have to purchase from... my point in responding here to Precision HVAC is that buying from different companies does not mean that I am not paying markup to each company}

[precision hvac]

So the point of all this is.................
You've been told how this industry operates over & over. Buy the product from us & we'll install it for you.
Buy it elsewhere & you will get little to no support.
That's not coming from just us- it's coming straight from the manufacturer as well.
Gathering their wagons- that's funny. It's been this way from day one. We didn't re-invent the wheel.

[rcstevensonaz]

So the point of all this is.................
You've been told how this industry operates over & over. Buy the product from us & we'll install it for you.
Buy it elsewhere & you will get little to no support. ...

Yea, I've agreed for the last three posts that this is how your industry operates.

But, then someone comes along as posts an ad hominem attack or says something really stupid. I reply to the attack or stupidity and then other person the just repeats "but this is how we do it" (which I have already acknowledged).

Stop attacking someone who came honestly seeking help and stop saying stupid things. I have not already bought equipment on the Internet (really not that stupid to not have an installer lined up first). I want people to be profitable. And I honestly thought HVAC worked like all other industries when I first posted this morning.


Gathering their wagons- that's funny. It's been this way from day one. We didn't re-invent the wheel.

I'll grant you that you did not re-invent the wheel.... My question to you: what have you evolved since the wheel was invented?

Enjoy the "no internet" sales privilege while it lasts. Computer manufactures abandoned that model decades ago and car dealerships have moved to agressive fleet sales for savvy purchasers over the past decade; your industry seems to be the last remaining hold out. Who knows if the mini split units will hold the line for the next decade or become a commodity purchase in the USA (the box out of the factory is the same box regardless of where it is shipped to).

[jpsmith1cm]

Yea, I've agreed for the last three posts that this is how your industry operates.

But, then someone comes along as posts an ad hominem attack or says something really stupid. I reply to the attack or stupidity and then other person the just repeats "but this is how we do it" (which I have already acknowledged).

Stop attacking someone who came honestly seeking help and stop saying stupid things. I have not already bought equipment on the Internet (really not that stupid to not have an installer lined up first). I want people to be profitable. And I honestly thought HVAC worked like all other industries when I first posted this morning.



I'll grant you that you did not re-invent the wheel.... My question to you: what have you evolved since the wheel was invented?

Enjoy the "no internet" sales privilege while it lasts. Computer manufactures abandoned that model decades ago and car dealerships have moved to agressive fleet sales for savvy purchasers over the past decade; your industry seems to be the last remaining hold out. Who knows if the mini split units will hold the line for the next decade or become a commodity purchase in the USA (the box out of the factory is the same box regardless of where it is shipped to).

There is a big difference between a computer and a properly installed HVAC system.

A computer is, essentially, a one size fits all product. Not much different than apples, oranges or even a car.

"You want this one or that one?"

A properly installed HVAC system requires a custom built solution for your home. No two homes are exactly alike, and no two HVAC systems are exactly alike.

[skippedover]

Diamond, Mitsubishi, Lennox, LG, Sanyo, Friedrich and others sell their mini-split systems directly to homeowners through online websites. If that's the case, how can you say Mitsubishi "is highly trained and not about to give away their profits so a homeowner can save money"? They're selling the equipment on the Internet to anybody with cash. They don't care about you. Not to mention, Goodman, Rheem, Amana and others sell central A/C split systems and package units to homeowners through online websites. How can any of you be a dealer for one of these companies when they are out to cut your throats? Is there something I'm missing here?

You've been duped. None of the manufacturers sell directly to the public. If they did, they'd have no industry backing at all and would wither and die quickly. What you've found are distributors of the products who advertise through website purporting to be manufacturers when in fact, they are not. But since they are legitimate distributors of the product, they have access to all of the equipment and manuals needed to make it all feel legit.

The philosophy of manufacturers (the corporate culture, if you will) varies as much between them as do the scruples of homeowners trying to cheat on the prices and the HVAC contractors who do substandard work for a buck. How can I say highly trained? We've sent technicians to Suwanee, GA for a week of training at Mitsubishi. We have 5 techs scheduled for a training class this week locally. I personally have attended several training classes to qualify as a Diamond Dealer. I'm not sure what your threshold definition of highly trained is but until you can describe in detail the vapor compression cycle, what "inverter" technology is and how it works, what a 'stepper' valve is and how it works, I'll assume you're not highly trained.

I agree with you. Some manufacturers are all about equipment sales and that's where it ends. No training, so support, just sell the box and that's it. Some in your list operate in that fashion. Mitsubishi is definitely NOT one of those companies. They recognize that without the trained technicians in the field, they have no edge over any other box seller. You know, the internet is a great place to purchase commodity products. Those are products that can be purchased, taken from the shipping container and put to use without the need for any modification or installation, except for removing the packing materials. But when it comes to purchasing a product that requires a professional to make it operate, you're then stepping over the line. What you're doing is blatantly telling the professional installer that he's not worth the money. You're attacking his very trade, denigrating his skills and knowledge and cheating him/her out of a fair profit. You can purchase scalpels on the internet for about $12.00 for a good one. Is that what you purchase when you need a medical procedure? Do you take in all the products you'll need and tell the Dr. you'll just use his skills to do the operation?

Personally, I find your request insulting. You bought it, install it yourself. And good luck with that.

[freonrick]

most contractors can not survive on profits only by labor alone, it takes profit from labor and parts/equipment. there is alot of expense that contractors has to pay besides just the guy that shows up at your house. like others has said your best bet is craigslist but be pickey.

[dan sw fl]

You've been duped. None of the manufacturers sell directly to the public. If they did, they'd have no industry backing at all and would wither and die quickly. What you've found are distributors of the products who advertise through website purporting to be manufacturers when in fact, they are not.

No training, so support, just sell the box and that's it. Some in your list operate in that fashion. Mitsubishi is definitely NOT one of those companies.

But when it comes to purchasing a product that requires a professional to make it operate, you're then stepping over the line. What you're doing is blatantly telling the professional installer that he's not worth the money.

Personally, I find your request insulting. You bought it, install it yourself. And good luck with that.

AND the FACT is that the OP has NOT bought any equipment.
( see # 35 )

:.02:
READING and Understanding is becoming a lost art.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Hmmmm, it appears the person posting this thread has had more than a clear explanation of the WHY's behind his request being not valid.

If he persists, IMO there are only a few conclusions one could draw:

1) The poster is just a cheapskate looking to get a deal... Never thinking of the results of not having a qualified person to service the equipment.

OR

2) The poster is just blowing smoke for his/her entertainment. Which is indeed an insult to the professionals on this forum... which is the reason forum mgt does not allow tech information on public threads... only the private pro sections.

What is interesting is the way the marketplace works: If there were enough folks really wanting to buy their own equipment and have a pro install it... this service would be available. Since it is not... obviously the marketplace (the BEST judge of business activity) says it is not a viable scenario to do business.

I am un-subscribing to this thread... the poster can look for their goals without my attention... as I have paying customers waiting for my skills.

[dan sw fl]

Technician time, Workmens compensation (20% of "salary" range?), Vacation, Holidays, medical / hospitalization insurance, trucks, gas, tools, warehouse, equipment delivery, ordering, billing, parts inventory, travel time, training, certification, building / office space & utliities, office assistants, Scheduling, Bidding, analysis to determine equiment sizing requirements, permitting, sales or field/ service review to determine equipment needs or extent of problem, advertising, ... A few of the areas that a business must address & generally referred to as "Overhead" that at times may be viewed as - Profit- but cuts that actual mark up of 34% +/- to a realized profit of 9% +/-. NO ONE SAID IT WAS EASY. Hopefully, objective viewpoint of costs may be enhanced by presenting a little more real situation for the "residential HVAC consumer" to reflect upon.

[SandShark]

You've been duped. None of the manufacturers sell directly to the public. If they did, they'd have no industry backing at all and would wither and die quickly. What you've found are distributors of the products who advertise through website purporting to be manufacturers when in fact, they are not. But since they are legitimate distributors of the product, they have access to all of the equipment and manuals needed to make it all feel legit.

The philosophy of manufacturers (the corporate culture, if you will) varies as much between them as do the scruples of homeowners trying to cheat on the prices and the HVAC contractors who do substandard work for a buck. How can I say highly trained? We've sent technicians to Suwanee, GA for a week of training at Mitsubishi. We have 5 techs scheduled for a training class this week locally. I personally have attended several training classes to qualify as a Diamond Dealer. I'm not sure what your threshold definition of highly trained is but until you can describe in detail the vapor compression cycle, what "inverter" technology is and how it works, what a 'stepper' valve is and how it works, I'll assume you're not highly trained.

I agree with you. Some manufacturers are all about equipment sales and that's where it ends. No training, so support, just sell the box and that's it. Some in your list operate in that fashion. Mitsubishi is definitely NOT one of those companies. They recognize that without the trained technicians in the field, they have no edge over any other box seller. You know, the internet is a great place to purchase commodity products. Those are products that can be purchased, taken from the shipping container and put to use without the need for any modification or installation, except for removing the packing materials. But when it comes to purchasing a product that requires a professional to make it operate, you're then stepping over the line. What you're doing is blatantly telling the professional installer that he's not worth the money. You're attacking his very trade, denigrating his skills and knowledge and cheating him/her out of a fair profit. You can purchase scalpels on the internet for about $12.00 for a good one. Is that what you purchase when you need a medical procedure? Do you take in all the products you'll need and tell the Dr. you'll just use his skills to do the operation?

Personally, I find your request insulting. You bought it, install it yourself. And good luck with that.Whoa, back up the wagon! Take off your Mitsubishi colored glasses and re-read the thread, paying attention to what I wrote. I'm not the one who is buying Mitsubishi equipment off the Internet.

Where did I say manufacturers sell directly to the public? I didn't. I said Mitsubishi and others "sell their mini-split systems directly to homeowners through online websites." Yes, that includes your precious Mitsubishi products, along with the other manufacturers I listed. Do you need links? Do a Google search. And, what difference does it make if you call these websites "distributors"? What it boils down to is you, who I assume is a legitimate contractor, is being left out in the cold - no equipment sales for you!

The bottom line is you're preaching to the choir, buddy. I'm on your side. I don't want manufacturers selling their equipment through third parties to homeowners and taking sales from legitimate HVAC contractors no more than you or any other legitimate HVAC contractor does. I've been in the trade for more years than I care to admit to and I've made my living through sales, installation and service of air conditioning and heating equipment, including Mitsubishi mini-splits. The bottom line with these manufacturers is selling brown boxes. They can sell them through you or through an online "distributor". They're happy doing it either way.

[precision hvac]

From Mitsubishi's own website. Just FYI
http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/en/consumer/consumer-resources/internet-sales

Fujitsu
http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06/HVACInternetWarrantyPolicy.pdf

[Stamas]

Just so it is clear:
The Mitsubishi Electric Cooling & Heating is committed to providing reliable and innovative mechanical cooling and heating solutions. To support this effort we do not authorize online retail sales of our Mr. Slim air-conditioning and heat pump products for many reasons we will identify here.

Mr. Slim products come in various sizes and need to be configured to the spaces they are to condition. Many factors, in addition to room size, will determine if you are comfortable in your home or office after you have a new comfort conditioning appliance installed.

While buying many types of products over the Internet is now common practice, we maintain that Mr. Slim products must be matched to their intended function by trained HVAC professionals.

Our concerns about Internet purchases of Mr. Slim products are the following:

1. You, the consumer, may base your decision on limited information and may purchase the incorrect products and accessories for your application.

2. You may not enjoy the same level of personal and professional installation and after-the-sale service support unless the product is purchased from an authorized dealer in your area. Installing dealers perform many important services involved with the selection and usage of our products, and those services cannot be provided over the Internet.

3. A trained and experienced HVAC dealer will size our product to meet your specific comfort requirements based on an on-site inspection of your home or office. He will take into account the entire environment of your installation. Improper sizing can lead to improper operation. To prevent this from happening, our authorized dealer will survey your application to ensure that your specific requirements are met. He will verify your needs for:

Unit capacity
Electrical service
Indoor and outdoor unit placement
Space usage
Control wiring length and placement
Length and diameter of refrigerant piping, and placement
The indoor (and system) type most appropriate for your application

The only way that you can be certain of full warranty protection and unmatched performance is by purchasing your Mr. Slim product from an authorized dealer.

Mitsubishi Electric Cooling & Heating has selected the finest HVAC distributors in the industry to carry Mr. Slim and, working with them, we have assembled the best and most knowledgeable HVAC contractors (our Diamond Contractors) to provide you with the finest sales, installation, and service support possible. We have spent millions putting this team in place to serve you and we highly recommend that you call upon this network as your best and most reliable source for Mitsubishi Electric's high quality and reliable Mr. Slim split-ductless products."

Sales pitch aside.

[beenthere]

crow, this is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise here. Please apply to the AOPC today, thank you.

You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=957002).


Further infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.

[koldair]

I am a HACK! I have a Texas HVAC Lic. I have general liability insurance, I have a service van a CPA an EPA certification all the proper tools charge accounts with all of my venders an education and over ten years in the industry. But according to all the rest of you pros I’m a Hack!

I have installed several ductless systems for customers that have purchased them online. I have even helped them choose their equipment and all of the accessories needed to complete the job. I simply quote them a labor rate plus any materials used and proceed with the install. This is after we have evaluated the job site and determined what is needed of course!

Bottom line is if you cannot adapt you will not survive because the market is evolving and we have to evolve with it. We are not going to stop online sales but we can certainly take advantage of it! The end result is I make money on the install and the customer is satisfied with their new system as for warranty I provide no labor warranty and it is made very clear before any work is done.
As a result of this I have acquired new customers as referrals from these online purchasing bandits. Sometimes its more about the bigger picture here guys…. Just sayin!

[wahoo]

Kold, good for you if it works out. Us? We're a number of jobs behind for our regular, "buy from us" customers so why would we get involved in this? If we were truly caught up with NOTHING to do, then I might also quote this job. Thank goodness that seldom happens as this type of job could lead to some very unhappy customers. Since you are a "professional", there is a liability incurred by you for simply touching his equipment regardless of what you say or put in writing. Don't believe me? Talk to a good lawyer sometime. You'll be shocked at your potential liability!
Just for information, if we EVER quote a job like this, then we'll have to add our own "mark-up" to the job to cover overhead just as if we sold the equipment. Because we all know there will be the same treatment of warranty problems even if we tell homeowner that they are responsible for warranty work. We'll still have to take care of something regardless and we have to cover the potential cost same as if we sold entire job.
Years ago we worked on a new home (large 6500 sq. ft), and the homeowner was his own builder. The builder/homeowner hired a foundation company with a backhoe to waterproof his basement however he demanded they use his materials. He arranged for the waterproofing coating, gravel and pipe. However the pipe he purchased came in without perforations (small holes) in it. The subcontractor simply buried what the homeowner furnished and behold the basement filled with water. The homeowner sued the subcontractor for a LOT of money, because the sub installed the incorrect materials/pipe. Guess who won the suit? Yep, the sub had to correct the problem and fix the entire finished basement!!! Moral of story, once you're paid, you're responsible!