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View Full Version : Three techs ~ Where do you think the problem started?



CaptHook
04-25-2012, 09:46 PM
Today I was dispatched to a PTU ~ Precision Tune up on central air system.

I arrived to a tennant, whom stated the landlord called us out to "tune up" the system.

Performed interior checks as normal. Condensate, blower, filter etc.. Temp split and equip particulars:

-Goodman GF furnace 3 years old
~Fixed orfice
~Changed 20x25 "plugged filter"
-Coil clean, (inspected through limit with camera)
CFM (measured with Vaneometer) 1500 Which matched the 4 ton coil specs
-Wet entering 57
-Dry entering 71
-LAT 50
-Temp split 21
-Fixed orfice

so far so good right. :)

Went outdoors, to find.. :)
-Goodman 4 ton cond 410a unit 3 years old
-2 Pieces of electrical tape loosly around suction and liquid line
-Suction line Schrader cap in dirt by unit
-A pocket thermometer stuck to the side of the disconnect, apparently left by a tech.
-3 or more screws missing from electrical compartment and cond fan top.
-The first companies sticker, so large, the second company couldn't put theirs on it to cover it up, The third companies sticker trying to cover the second companies sticker, which was partially pealed off.

Now thinking to self... "Self, your are not the first one here,, lol"

I asked the tennant if they knew of a service issue,

He started talking.
He stated a company came out to do maintenance the first year the condo was purchased, he was there for a few hours, on the phone alot.
He came in to tell him, there is a problem with the unit, call the installing company to return to fix it under warranty.

He then told me he "thinks" the landlord called the installing company, as another company came out a few days later.
The service man was outside for some time, another truck pulled up, another man joined him outside by the condenser, they brought refrigerant in and said it was low on refrigerant, charged the unit and left.

The next year, the landlord called in a different company,, "advertising special" to tune the unit up. Not us (yet)
The tennant told me, he was there for approx an hour, also brought refrigerant in, charged it and said it was low also.

Now the present, He said you are the 4th company out to "tune up" the unit.

I knew something was up, and took the challenge. ..LOL
Hooked the guages up and wala,, Head pressure bouncing from 250# to sometimes over 400# within seconds. Semi stable,, suction of 123#

I used my testo 570 this time, have digicools, but like my 4 way manifold on the Testo's.. And the batteries were good in them, lol.

When numbers settled the best they could, this is what I had ~
Suction
~ 123# Converted to 42.3 * 410a
SLT 46.8
Superheat 3.9

~231 to "all over the place" lol converted to 77.9
LLT 59.3
Sub C 19 to sometimes bouncing up to 30 +
ODA = 69

Compressor amps 14 rated at 16 (more than 80 Percent)

Normally stable pres would tell me with these numbers , they have flooded the unit.
The head bouncing concerned me, under normal flooded circumstances, i do not normally see the bouncing head so much and heavy.

First check, not normal to find in my area, but U can follow me i bet.
~Disable compressor..
~ Thermister on discharge line 69 deg
~Thermister on liquid line 69.something
~ODA on Air entering Cond,, 69 deg
When they were all about 69, givin prob 10 min
My LL guage , press was 217# Converted to 75 deg
Hence 75 much > 69 Deemed non condensables

At this time it was a starting to point to work, however even with non concensables, i truely dont remember such eratic head pressure, In less than a second, the press would be from 230's to nearly 400 #

Quoted the customer to recover, evacuate, inspect orfice, recharge.

After an hour or so explaining rocket science, had the approval.

Results ~
Recovered 10# refrig **System factory charge 7# 12 oz
Took LL apart at evap to remove orfice,,, was caught in a thought,, "does that look like it's in right" Nope,, in backwards.
Cleaned it, purged the system with nitrogen.
Reinstalled orfice in correct direction
Evac to 500 microns, wait 20 min, hold for another 10,, all good
Recharge 7# 12 oz with nominal 15 ft lineset,, should be good.

Fired up,, Stable suction, Stable discharge,, 13 SH 11 SC

So the job went well, but what caused it to start,, lol
To add to the confusion, the tennant inquired, "Do you all paint your tanks different colors?"

LOl... No,, it is definition of refrigerant type, he was sure, either second company or third, used a "green" can..

I think the Orfice was the main problem, the new blend of refrigerant one of the tech's created, was what caused my reading of non condensables, and one or the other flooded the system.

Customers happy, system is working well..
Thought as a newbie here, would share my exp, as all of you I bet have had, when you enter a "logistical nightmare" of service companies trying to solve the problem, mixed with a customer, hunting for the best tune up price.

Hope you all have a great day night, let me know what you think of my procedures, always love learning others tricks and tips, one can never know everything. I was very curious if 410 units, since i have been outside service for a couple of years, used a check-valve in the condenser circuit as well. I was concerned that could be causing the bouncing.

Matt

superd77
04-25-2012, 10:10 PM
Job well done.

zw17
04-25-2012, 10:19 PM
:cheers:

That is a top notch job and a great write up on it.

Tech it out
04-25-2012, 10:37 PM
Sounds like you just gained a loyal customer for your company! :cheers:

Willserve
04-25-2012, 10:43 PM
Sweet, job well done. HVAC is a thinking man's game, way to use your head and work the problem out.

CaptHook
04-25-2012, 11:20 PM
Thanks guys,
I can remember some reciprocating compressor's, demanded a way to help keep head pressure under control. Some manu's adapted a small check valve in the condenser , un-servicable.. Very untechnical, just small ball in a casing, and usually could hear it with a stethescope when they were bad or wore out, usually lasted 15 years or so in the system.

Copeland has built in unloader, i think that also helps keep head under more control, just not sure, It may be good for me to contact goodman or a manu on that one, as info like that bugs me as I always like to know as much as I can.

Almost all the commercial case/walk ins/ low press systems use them even more so with lower ambient operations, or use headmaster. Heat pumps/geo / older before biflow expansion valves, used chatliff device. Sure am curious if these 410 condensers are using anything I can't see to control head.. Whatcha all think?

(bows)
Matt

Dennis.Moore
04-26-2012, 12:12 AM
Gotta love the "Do you all paint your tanks different colors?"
I don't think I would have discovered a backward orifice.
... so let me give you a crisp salute sir!
(making mental note - order larger stickers)

CaptHook
04-26-2012, 12:30 AM
Thanks Dennis,,
Yeah, he caught me off guard with that,, kinda thought at first he was making a punch at me for having a "rose, pink" tank.. rofl..

Thank heavens for working through the ranks, when I installed and did changeouts, I seemed to ask someone quite frequently,,, "which way does this go in" lol

The reply, "Oring away from the lineset" stuck with me,, so when I saw that little oring it was quick flag.
I truely dont know the consequences of it, but by design, believe it is engineered to prevent flash freezing and even distribution into the cap distributer. If it's in backwards, the little groves wouldn't be up against the cap distributer and "believe" it would intermittently block liquid flow.

I after thinking about it,, wonder if i could of heard it with my stethescope and pinned the problem to that,, now that this is fresh, il remember to try it sometime,, my luck, Ill probably never find one backwards for years and end up with a darned stethescope in my toolbag.. lol

yes im guilty, afterwards I did sneak up there with it and listen to it after wards for curiosity,, no noise, but could hear the refrig passing though nicely... lol.. If i had time i would have been so anal about it, i could have put it back in backwards, charged and listened to it that way,, to see if there was a detectable diff... lol.. Im such a geek.. :cheers:

(bows)
Matt

Dennis.Moore
04-26-2012, 12:39 AM
I'm probably the guy who took it out and instantly forgot which way it was :-)

CaptHook
04-26-2012, 01:03 AM
Oh I have a brain fart for ya in that direction,,,

Chaging A~coil,, fumbled it putting it in, dropped it, fell between infloor return and concrete,, spent at least 20 min trying to pick it up with telescoping magnet... lol..

You can prob still see the light from the bulb when I realized it was brass... :oops:

edward301
04-26-2012, 02:13 AM
The different colored tanks is good eyecatcher.

Last year during our 108 degree heat wave a/c units were in need of
massive repairs. I was checking one out, and across the street some
tech was working on another. I noticed he had a green tank, and was
already installing refigerant into the condenser. Well this subdivision
was built by the same builder, and all units were Carrier with purion.

When I went to my van to get my rose pink color tank to install some refigerant,
I mentioned to the guy, you got the wrong refigerant. There was a pause,
and them a somewhat loud string of cuss words.

When I finished up and left, he was on his phone figuring out what to do.

408-COUPE
04-26-2012, 02:53 AM
Excellent walk through. I paused after you wrote the problems and first thought problem with the office, then said hmm maybe the company's put in 22 lol. Job well done keep up the good work.

GATS
04-26-2012, 06:22 AM
Great training story. Good thinking

vstech
04-26-2012, 06:48 AM
having the orifice in backwards will be like having a HUGE orifice, it'll flood the evap, and cause high suction pressures... never get proper cooling.
good catch, but be sure you mark the recovery tank mixed refrigerant, as your supply house is going to charge you a lot to take in the tank!

timebuilder
04-26-2012, 07:34 AM
Nice detective work, and a good story, to boot!

To answer your question:

the problem started with the install.

CaptHook
04-26-2012, 07:35 AM
Oh that's classic Edward, Ya know the rest of the day, week just went bad for that guy.
The day for his work schedule and the week if he had any concious, he should have beat himself up over that one. lol

We did mix refrigerants 410a/R22 on purpose in a rgb amana unit to be able to see the symptoms in a "class" enviroment, and for lack of better words, intel. We didnt' stick with it to see the long term results, or change the ratio to see how the numbers changed.

Charged approx 50/50 with each and suprisingly,, the dew pts pretty much met in the middle. lol.. The oil requirements we knew would be the long term disaster. Memory was very distinctive about guages being stable. But , lol.. we didn't call the patent office ...

Have a great day everyone, im off to the trenches.
Still cold in Jersey, first call GF Boiler, can't keep the pilot lit..

:) :) Be good ya'll

kdean1
04-26-2012, 09:00 AM
Nice diagnostic work! Thanks for the report. I have learned a lot from mistakes - mostly those of others, but sometimes my own.

pony
04-26-2012, 11:51 AM
what is most accurate way to test the refrigerant type in the system beside find out correct pressure for that refrigerant by ad outdoor temp plus 30 covert to pressure?

ga-hvac-tech
04-26-2012, 12:20 PM
Agree, problem was probably the installer (at least they put the right piston in, rather than leaving the one from the factory in)... OR maybe the piston was in backwards from the factory???

Personally, I am big on TXV's... would probably have tried to talk the owner into a TXV.

The presentation was GREAT, your post is a good reminder to LOOK for the un-expected. We get in a rush running calls... and do not stop to think 'what, and more importantly WHY'.

THX for the reminder to look for things... good to keep the brain stimulated, to not fall too far into the routines.

Crkdbateman
04-26-2012, 05:33 PM
Wow! Great job I wouldn't have thought to check the orifice for correct direction. I'm glad this site is around so new guys like me can learn.

ga-hvac-tech
04-26-2012, 05:55 PM
Oh that's classic Edward, Ya know the rest of the day, week just went bad for that guy.
The day for his work schedule and the week if he had any concious, he should have beat himself up over that one. lol

We did mix refrigerants 410a/R22 on purpose in a rgb amana unit to be able to see the symptoms in a "class" enviroment, and for lack of better words, intel. We didnt' stick with it to see the long term results, or change the ratio to see how the numbers changed.

Charged approx 50/50 with each and suprisingly,, the dew pts pretty much met in the middle. lol.. The oil requirements we knew would be the long term disaster. Memory was very distinctive about guages being stable. But , lol.. we didn't call the patent office ...

Have a great day everyone, im off to the trenches.
Still cold in Jersey, first call GF Boiler, can't keep the pilot lit..

:) :) Be good ya'll

Just a thought here 'Hook'... :)

When you get 15 posts, apply for PRO status. There is a wealth of stuff behind the PRO door, you would enjoy the discussions.

CaptHook
04-26-2012, 06:51 PM
Thanks Tech, A great reminder to always look for a way to improve upon what a consumer has, as in with the TXV. They are a super way to tweak a little more out of the system. I became fixated with the "why" and failed to think of the "improvement". (bows)

Ill apply for pro in a short short, sure do enjoy the threads already. Im sure there is an interesting curriculum in the pro area.. :)

Woot woot.

ga-hvac-tech
04-26-2012, 07:05 PM
Thanks Tech, A great reminder to always look for a way to improve upon what a consumer has, as in with the TXV. They are a super way to tweak a little more out of the system. I became fixated with the "why" and failed to think of the "improvement". (bows)

Ill apply for pro in a short short, sure do enjoy the threads already. Im sure there is an interesting curriculum in the pro area.. :)

Woot woot.

Generally, the forum rules lean towards not much tech or DIY information in 'public view'. Behind the PRO door, we are allowed to talk freely. The conversations are technical, thorough, and folks learn a bunch. I think you will enjoy that part of H-talk when you get there.

CaptHook
04-26-2012, 07:28 PM
what is most accurate way to test the refrigerant type in the system beside find out correct pressure for that refrigerant by ad outdoor temp plus 30 covert to pressure?

If I got your Q right, i usually am not to concerned on what type is in there, unless things aren't acting right. If not acting right, never safe to assume what the person's before you have put in there. Starting from scratch with design parameters has been my best path of luck. In my opinion only.. :)

If I need to know type to convert no's.. Process of elimination with a guage and temp in the system vs application use, will get you the refrig type, or it's close drop in replacement, most cases, close enough to diagnose. Oil type can help determine if a drop in refrig is used also.

I am always concerned on what the system is designed for. So I look on nomenclature or if need, model serial and call manufacture for designed requirements. Assumption is the mother of all evil.. lol

As Tech mentioned, tyring not to be to technical in here, I see your pro member, prob good question to ask in there.. (bows)

Snapperhead
04-28-2012, 07:28 AM
yep , you will find a piston in backwards nownthen

timebuilder
04-28-2012, 07:39 AM
what is most accurate way to test the refrigerant type in the system beside find out correct pressure for that refrigerant by ad outdoor temp plus 30 covert to pressure?

To test for the AMOUNT, or "charge" (I mention this because you mentioned 30 over ODT)

1) Use the manufacturer's recommendation, including a charging chart or other method.

2) Check the values of subcooling and superheat, taking actual conditions into account. There are ballpark values based on calculations of temperature humidity, etc, depending on the type of metering device being used.

I recommend a class at the local college to fill in the blanks for you.

To test the type?

There are refrigerant identifiers that are the most accurate. They can cost literally thousands of dollars. If there is R22 AND a blend in there, I don't think there is a good field-use method for accurately identifying which refrigerants are in a system if there is more than one.

ga-hvac-tech
04-28-2012, 10:04 AM
Interesting thought there TB; one comes to a resi unit (or an RTU) which is labelled for R-22. They find the refrigerant behaving just a little peculiar... Does it have a 'bad part' issue, or does it have a mixture of R-22, MO99, Hotshot, and/or whatever else in it? Methinks we will see more of this now that R-22 is expensive and the alternatives are competitive.

One more reason a PRO should be contacted for all repairs of heating and cooling equipment. The problem may be a lot more serious that is repairable without training, experience, and lots of costly tools.