Still having problems with Trane 16 seer

[clllclal]

I am pretty new to this forum, but you guys have answered a few questions for me already and I greatly appreciate that. I have a Trane 16 seer that is only about 8 months old that was put in under new construction. I live in lower Alabama and it has been pretty warm for the last few weeks so my ac has been running frequently. I went into the attic yesterday and noticed that the bottom pan was holding quite a bit of water. I took off the side panel and all of the insulation inside of the cabinet was also sopping wet. This is kind of a two-part question so please be patient with me.

1. What could be causing the inside of the unit and the insulation to be so wet? I really don't believe it is a clogged drain. Is it possible that the drain line or the cabinet itself was not installed correctly or may be unlevel? Does the insulation inside need to be replaced?

2. Now for the million dollar question. This is the third coil we have had in this unit because of an awful smell since it was installed. The last coil was coated in a black epoxy, I believe? I was told that this last coil that was installed would solve the smell. But it hasn't. Now I'm beginning to wonder if it was the coil at all. It got unseasonably cool a few days ago and the ac nor the heater ran at all. Is it possible that with the unit not running that the remaining water from when the ac was running before was just sitting in the cabinet getting stagnant and not being allowed to drain off with the fresh moisture coming off of the coils? When the unit finally kicked on the whole house stunk, but after awhile, the smell slowly went away, leading me to believe that the older stagnant water inside of the cabinet was finally allowed to flush out. I know this is a long post and I apologize, but I have been getting zero help from the installer, who is now not a Trane dealer anymore. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

[2old2rock]

The installing contractor should be responsible for any problems for the first year. Doesn't matter if he isn't a dealer any more.
Is there a trap on the drain?

[catmanacman]

It will take days to dry out the inside of the unit, myself i like to tilt the unit to the drain. If the static pressure is high it can cause poor drainage, post some pics of the unit

[second opinion]

I am pretty new to this forum, but you guys have answered a few questions for me already and I greatly appreciate that. I have a Trane 16 seer that is only about 8 months old that was put in under new construction. I live in lower Alabama and it has been pretty warm for the last few weeks so my ac has been running frequently. I went into the attic yesterday and noticed that the bottom pan was holding quite a bit of water. I took off the side panel and all of the insulation inside of the cabinet was also sopping wet. This is kind of a two-part question so please be patient with me.

1. What could be causing the inside of the unit and the insulation to be so wet? I really don't believe it is a clogged drain. Is it possible that the drain line or the cabinet itself was not installed correctly or may be unlevel? Does the insulation inside need to be replaced?

2. Now for the million dollar question. This is the third coil we have had in this unit because of an awful smell since it was installed. The last coil was coated in a black epoxy, I believe? I was told that this last coil that was installed would solve the smell. But it hasn't. Now I'm beginning to wonder if it was the coil at all. It got unseasonably cool a few days ago and the ac nor the heater ran at all. Is it possible that with the unit not running that the remaining water from when the ac was running before was just sitting in the cabinet getting stagnant and not being allowed to drain off with the fresh moisture coming off of the coils? When the unit finally kicked on the whole house stunk, but after awhile, the smell slowly went away, leading me to believe that the older stagnant water inside of the cabinet was finally allowed to flush out. I know this is a long post and I apologize, but I have been getting zero help from the installer, who is now not a Trane dealer anymore. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Can you post pictures of the unit showing the drain,level on unit, point of termination.

Trane XL equipment has a two year dealer obligation,if he is no longer a Trane dealer the responsibility reverts back to where the equipment was purchased whether it be a Trane DSO or IWD.

File a consumer complaint with Trane and have them contact where it was purchased and let them solve the problem for you.

[skippedover]

A couple of thoughts come to mind way up here in Massachusetts.

The first question is, are all the drain holes either connected or plugged? That would answer the question of water in the overflow pan but not the total unit soaked.

As far as totally soaking the interior insulation, I'd suspect too much airflow and/or a restricted return air, thus allowing the blower to pull water off the coil before it reaches the primary drain pan. This could be determined by someone running static pressure checks of the system. Was a room-by-room load analysis done before the equipment was sized or did the contractor just look at the old unit and put in the same size? Do you have a variable speed blower? If so, an under sized return air is a text book case for sucking water off the coil.

[beachtech]

sounds like drain line is not correct.

and the odor is least likely the hvac system if you continue to have the odor with the epoxy coil, however, i have seen that in rare extreme situations.

the good news is.... the odor is caused by an airborne bacteria from within your home, if it is the indoor coil causing the odor :)

[tinknocker service tech]

couple things come to mind
no trap or improper trap
high static in return
unlevel unit
or all of the above
time to get a real pro over to look the system over and make nessary repairs

[clllclal]

Thanks for all of the input, guys. After talking to another A/C company, I'm beginning to think that my unit is oversized for my home. I have 2150sf and the unit is a 4 ton. Also, would that be the culprit for some of the problems that I am experiencing? Does that sound oversized to you guys?

Thanks

[skippedover]

2150 is about the maximum airflow needed for a 5-ton system that is not using dehumidification as a leading issue. A 4-ton nominal rating would be 1600 CFM and if you're in a very humid climate, you'd be better off with 1400 CFM. As for other problems, yes, excessive airflow can cause many. Insufficient dehumidification comes to mind due to decrease in indoor temperature drop. Noise due to high velocity, improper charge due to improper airflow. High static pressure causing higher energy consumption. Improper sizing can cause a myriad of issues, all dependent on the duct layout. If you have a 5-ton duct system, high static shouldn't be a problem but anything smaller and you're trying to squeez 10-pounds of jelly into a 8-pound jar!! And even if you have a 5-ton system, you shouldn't be moving 2150 CFM for a 4-ton unit. Something's been poorly selected or designed. Perhaps a load analysis is in order???

[mark beiser]

2150 is about the maximum airflow needed for a 5-ton system that is not using dehumidification as a leading issue. A 4-ton nominal rating would be 1600 CFM and if you're in a very humid climate, you'd be better off with 1400 CFM. As for other problems, yes, excessive airflow can cause many. Insufficient dehumidification comes to mind due to decrease in indoor temperature drop. Noise due to high velocity, improper charge due to improper airflow. High static pressure causing higher energy consumption. Improper sizing can cause a myriad of issues, all dependent on the duct layout. If you have a 5-ton duct system, high static shouldn't be a problem but anything smaller and you're trying to squeez 10-pounds of jelly into a 8-pound jar!! And even if you have a 5-ton system, you shouldn't be moving 2150 CFM for a 4-ton unit. Something's been poorly selected or designed. Perhaps a load analysis is in order???

I'm pretty sure he means his house is 2150 square feet, not that the unit is set for 2150 cfm. ;)

[clllclal]

A little update to the problem I've been experiencing...

Tech from original installing company came out today to see why auxillary pan was full of water and why insulation under blower inside of cabinet was sopping wet. He said that it seemed to him that there was an awful lot of condensation coming from coils, so he claimed to have upped the temp of the coil and he did this from the outside unit. I'm a little confused on this one. He also said that the unit seemed to be sucking air pretty hard but claimed that the static pressure was within the guidelines, which read .18 or 1.8(I really don't remember which one he said). He said that if upping the temp on the coil doesn't fix the problem, that they may need to make the return larger. Does any of this sound legit?

Thanks again

[catmanacman]

The trane 16i control wiring is different than any other 2 stage unit.do you notice a big difference in airflow between 1st and 2 nd stage cool

[mark beiser]

There is no way you are oversized, a 2 stage unit, working properly makes that nearly impossible

2 stage systems are just as easy to oversize as single stage systems.
Being 1/4 or 1/2 ton over is not as big of a deal, but if it is sized such that 1st stage satisfies the load at or near design conditions, the whole point of having a 2 stage system is defeated, and can actually result in less comfortable home than having a properly sized single stage system.

[jpsmith1cm]

EricConner

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[clllclal]

The trane 16i control wiring is different than any other 2 stage unit.do you notice a big difference in airflow between 1st and 2 nd stage cool

I do notice a difference between the 2 stages. The airflow is a lot less when in 2nd stage. BTW, I had to call the A/C company again today because when I got home from work, the humidity inside of the house was 74% and I had it set at 50%. The unit is cooling fine, but the humidity control is not working. Went into the attic again to check the unit and more water was coming from inside of the unit into the aux. drain pan, with the inside insulation still sopping wet. I think all of that moisture is being pumped back into the house somehow.

[catmanacman]

If the unit is wired correctly there will be 20 percent less air in low if it is not wired correctly there will be 50 less airflow in low .can you post a pic of the drain line and indoor unit

[clllclal]

If the unit is wired correctly there will be 20 percent less air in low if it is not wired correctly there will be 50 less airflow in low .can you post a pic of the drain line and indoor unit

I would post some pics if I could figure it out.:gah: It will not let me select a pic straight from my computer. BTW, explaining the situation a liitle better...Old unit was a 4 ton American Standard 13 seer I believe. We found out the house had Chinese drywall, so the the home was completely gutted back down to the studs. All A/C equip., including all ductwork was scrapped. Same company who installed old unit the first time installed the unit that I am having trouble with now. The new unit is a 4 ton also. Should a load calc. have been performed the second time around? Would this be considered new construction again or just a change out? Does Alabama require a load calc. for change outs?

Thanks

[SBKold]

Cracked pan on replacement coil.

[catmanacman]

The tech needs to find the problem and fix it , i have had to remove the panel and use a plexiglass cover to find the problem .might be time for themto call for help from the trane distributor

[mark beiser]

Got any pictures of the inside of the unit?

[SoFlaDave]

Could be that the wrong baffle was installed on the apex on the A coil. When you look at the front of the unit, is the coil to your left or right?

[mark beiser]

Could be that the wrong baffle was installed on the apex on the A coil. When you look at the front of the unit, is the coil to your left or right?

That is what I was wondering about, so asked for pictures.
I've run into units where the installer pulled the "shark fin" out and installed the small apex baffle on horizontal right units, which allows copious amounts of water to run off the end of the coil into the bottom of the air handler.

[clllclal]

I do not know how to post pics on here. Any tutorials? As for the "shark fin" thing, I was was in the attic with the tech yesterday and I found what looks like what you described as a "shark fin" sitting on top of one of the ducts. I ask the tech what it was, and he claimed that they usually take those out when installing coils because they tend to rub into some of the wiring. Sounds pretty lame to me, but that is just what he said. Any help on posting pics on here? When I hit insert image, it's like it wants me to pull a picture froma different website.

Thanks

[SoFlaDave]

Use the attachment feature for pics

[mark beiser]

As for the "shark fin" thing, I was was in the attic with the tech yesterday and I found what looks like what you described as a "shark fin" sitting on top of one of the ducts. I ask the tech what it was, and he claimed that they usually take those out when installing coils because they tend to rub into some of the wiring.

I don't have a good picture of the baffle, but this is a picture of one installed in a Trane air handler coil that has been Technicoated, as viewed when looking in through the return opening.
Hopefully yours never develops the pink bacteria slime this one has. ;)
http://www.markbeiser.com/HVAC/randomstuff/slime/slime.JPG

If the thing you found resembles that, and your air handler is installed in the horizontal right position, return on the left, supply on the right, it MUST be installed, or you will have condensation running off the end of the coil into the bottom of the air handler.

The installation instructions are VERY clear as to when the baffle is to be removed in favor of the smaller one.
Those coils/baffles have been the same way for a couple of decades, so it isn't like it is something new that someone missed....

There is no factory wiring that can possible interfere with the "shark fin" baffle.

[clllclal]

261131

261141

261151

261161

261171

Finally figured out how to post pics. I couldn't see up near the inside front of the coil to see if anything was installed there, but from what I could see it looks like nothing is there.

[clllclal]

Here are some pics of the wiring if you can make it out.
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261191

[SoFlaDave]

That black piece in the first pic covers the front of the coil and keeps the insulation from getting wet and coming in contact with the tubing. If they left it out they need to come put it back. The baffle we are talking about seems to be correct.

[mark beiser]

Yeah, the apex baffle looks correct, but that cover for the front of the coil needs to be in there.

The control wiring also looks correct.

If you post the indoor and outdoor unit model numbers I can tell you if the dip switches are set correctly.

I don't like those preformed traps, but I doubt it is what is causing your problem.

[clllclal]

inside model# 4TEE3F48B1000AA

outside model#4TWX6048E1000AA

Thanks

[tipsrfine]

I do notice a difference between the 2 stages. The airflow is a lot less when in 2nd stage. BTW, I had to call the A/C company again today because when I got home from work, the humidity inside of the house was 74% and I had it set at 50%. The unit is cooling fine, but the humidity control is not working. Went into the attic again to check the unit and more water was coming from inside of the unit into the aux. drain pan, with the inside insulation still sopping wet. I think all of that moisture is being pumped back into the house somehow.

Moisture/humidity can come from the outside, through leaks in your homes "envelope", and it can come internally created in the home through people, laundry, cooking, fish tanks, showers etc.... If your air conditioner is oversized -highly likely- and you have return leakage in your ductwork that is in the attic, along with undersized ductwork - again, highly likely- you will be experiencing the types of problems you have described.
I would recommend having someone out to perform a blower door test of your home to determine how leaky your homes envelope is, and to also test your duct system for leaks, since it is in the attic. If you find someone who is BPI or RESNET certified and who owns a ductblaster, you can have them perform a total system airflow test to determine just how many cfms your air handler is moving through your duct system. It may be that your ductwork is too small for a 4 ton a/c, or/and is designed improperly, so that you also have inadequate air flow across your evap coil. Your best bet is finding an HVAC contractor who is BPI and/or RESNET certified and who knows how to do all of the above to get to the bottom of your problem. Your problem is likely beyond the ability of your average HVAC contractor.