Just visited by Trane dealer...

[alexb]

I was just quoted a couple of prices for a simple change-out, from a local Trane dealer. An XR13 unit, and an XL14i unit, both with the TWE Vari-speed AH.

Their equipment cost was the same between R410 and R22, so we got into a discussion about refer. "I wouldn't put that new stuff in *my* house..." he said. "The industry won't fully adopt R410 anyway - there so many drop-ins out there, that everyone will go with those; they're more popular".

I quoted a fact I read on Honeywell's website, about R410 being more efficient at heat-transfer; and this was confirmed by a member here. "Bah! --actually the opposite is true - I'd stick with an R22 system..." he said. He gave me prices of refer -(that I won't mention here), where R410 seemed to cost 120% more than R22.

I've got a bit of an airflow issue in my house; and if I had a vari-speed AH put in, I'd never get air in that paticular room. I asked him about the price diff. between the Trane TWE, and a single-speed unit - "I wouldn't do it.. I wouldn't put it in; you'd have to call another dealer then..." (Scare tactic?)

I can see that this contractor wants things HIS way, and not *MY* way (I'm the guy with the money...) Quote was given in writing, non-itemized. Since there was an existing unit, he didn't do a Man-J calc.

Comments?

[biker128pedal]

I had a guy tell me his price for R22. It was 100% higher than what we buy at work.

What kind if issue makes you not want a variable speed air handler?

I read a study done in Austria showing R410a was more efficeint then R22 in the cold range then a DOE reprot show it is slightly less above 95 F and up to 6% less at 135 F.

[danglerb]

3 bids isn't just about price, you are also going to get 3 opinions on how to do the job.

I don't think there is a consensus on which is better, but some brands don't have 410. Not saying this is the case, but many people don't care for what they don't sell.

Read a bunch of the posts here and you will find many questions already answered.

I kind of wanted a variable speed furnace, but so far its looking like too expensive for my mild climate.

[alexb]

<blockquote><br>
Quote:
What kind if issue makes you not want a variable speed air handler?
</blockquote>
Cost mainly; I'm trying to do this w/o bells & whistles. A lady I work with had to have a vari-speed AH removed, becuase it wouldn't keep her house cool. Another reason the Trane dealer wanted me to have a vari-speed, was that it removed alot more moisture than single speed. I guess this is related to the speed at which air moves thru the coil?

Are vari-speeds recomended for systems that have air-flow problems? I know the response here will be "get your flow problem fixed..." though. I'd like to do one step at a time.

[fl1]

VS can help get air to the farthest supply outlets from the indoor unit/fan,but it has limits and won't solve the worst ones.

[billva]

is home depot involved here?

[BaldLoonie]

I think you are getting some misinformation somewhere. A variable speed blower didn't affect your co-worker cooling or heating her home. Duct issues, poor sizing or setup did. In fact a variable speed blower has more get up & go in a poor duct system that can help move air. Here's an example without getting too technical.

the TEC series 3 ton with .3" external static moves 1270 CFM of air, great for a 3 ton system. But rarely does a duct system with pleated filter have that low of a resistance reading. So taken with a real world .6" static, that same air handler can only more 1065 CFM. That's little more than a 2.5 ton system would want. But the variable speed unit at a restrictive .7" static still moves 1200 CFM.

As for which juice, I'd put R22 equipment today but wouldn't hesitate in putting whatever the customer wanted for their home and would try to talk them out of R410a if they wanted it. I do believe it is what we will have after 2010.

[alexb]

Original Poster: Nope, no Home Depot. This was a privately-owned business that came to see me. 35 years in business.

I'll post my experience with AmericanStanard on Tuesday. I was turned off by today's contractor who refused to do the job if I didn't install a vari-speed AH.

[thurston]

As for which juice, I'd put R22 equipment today but wouldn't hesitate in putting whatever the customer wanted for their home and would try to talk them out of R410a if they wanted it. I do believe it is what we will have after 2010.
Is this exactly what you mean BaldLoonie or is there a typo?

[danglerb]

So easy to forget those n't, hate when I do that.

[xv80satisfiedcust]

My former Amana furnace 1984 was a 75000 btu unit (dealer said it was actually made by Ducane).

Anyway, my XV80 variable speed furnace has a very quiet slow speed fan when in the low stage heating mode. However, once my XL14i heat pump was installed, it blows as forcefully as the former furnace did. It's all in the "dipswitch" settings or whatever.

I agree with you that the Trane dealer should be more attuned to your comments.

However, by suggesting a variable speed blower with an XL14i, this may be to your benefit. If the model numbers (furnace or airhandler, coil and outdoor unit) are 15 seer or (I forget what the heat pump requirement is), you could qualify for a 300 federal tax credit. Ask the Trane or AS dealer to show you the proposed combination of equip on the ARI (Air-Conditioning & Refrigeration Institute) website http://www.aridirectory.org

The XL14i and the American Standard equivalent are available with R22 or R410. I was cheap, I chose R22. I may be sorry later if I get a leak or my compressor fails early.

[BaldLoonie]

Yea, meant to say WOULDN'T try to talk someone out of R410a if they wanted it.

[hillbilly tech]

Not worked with any 410 freon yet but all i know is what ive read and taught and told from books,here,and the teacher.The instructor at the college ,also runs his own heating and air and refrigeration biz,said he hates 410 because of the higher pressures,sais to many leakes on the equipment and the compressors cant handle those kinda pressures over time.Just what ive been told,as for me i will stay away from it till need be.

[alexb]

Original Poster: --OK, I think I understand enough about R22 vs R410. Now give me some words of wisdom about single-speed vs. vari-speed AH.

One person has indicated that a vari-speed might have a few more CFM's than a single-speed given unit of tonnage "X". Can you confirm that vari-speed does do a better job of de-humidification? Would you shy away from putting it in a house that had sub-par insulation (not tight..) One of my rooms has a bit of a low-flow air problem; what's the ramification there? Thanks for your wisdom!

PS: Can a vari-speed run on a regular 5-wire digital, programable Tstat? Honeywell brand; 6-months old.

[dash]

Originally posted by alexb
Original Poster: Nope, no Home Depot. This was a privately-owned business that came to see me. 35 years in business.

I'll post my experience with AmericanStanard on Tuesday. I was turned off by today's contractor who refused to do the job if I didn't install a vari-speed AH.


Maybe they have a reason,did they they give you one??

[dash]

Originally posted by alexb
Original Poster: --OK, I think I understand enough about R22 vs R410. Now give me some words of wisdom about single-speed vs. vari-speed AH.

One person has indicated that a vari-speed might have a few more CFM's than a single-speed given unit of tonnage "X". Can you confirm that vari-speed does do a better job of de-humidification? Would you shy away from putting it in a house that had sub-par insulation (not tight..) One of my rooms has a bit of a low-flow air problem; what's the ramification there? Thanks for your wisdom!

PS: Can a vari-speed run on a regular 5-wire digital, programable Tstat? Honeywell brand; 6-months old.


Variable speed indoor fan ,WITh the right control ,can do a great job of indoor dehumidification.Really improves your comfort.

I'd wouldn't hesitate to use VS due to poor insulation,though it would be smart to increase the insulation and get a smaller system.

VS will usually improve air flow to the ducts/rooms,farthest away from the indoor fan/blower.It has limits and won't correct all the undersized ducts .

With Carrier's Infinty control,you only need 4 wires to the stat,others maybe 10 to use all the features,regular stat will not control VS ,as it should/could be used.

[alexb]

Original Poster: Don't whip me too much for this, but I wanted to use my existing Honeywell Programable Tstat becuase I have plaster walls, and took great care to install the Tstat. I don't have any more of the paint that went on the walls, so if a Tstat of different dimension were installed, it might uncover the screw-holes in the plaster, which I couldn't patch.

Does the humidity-control feature of an AH require the use of heat-strips while the compressor is on, like the commercial unit at my workplace? I don't think this is the case. Does the humidity-control feature require something fancier than a standard Honeywell programmable Tstat?

Question: How does a system accomplish de-humidification w/o the temp in the house taking a nosedive? This is where the heat-strips come in, in the Commercial units...

[zzyzzx]

I'd wouldn't hesitate to use VS due to poor insulation,though it would be smart to increase the insulation and get a smaller system.

VS will usually improve air flow to the ducts/rooms,farthest away from the indoor fan/blower.It has limits and won't correct all the undersized ducts .


I have read this before, but I am not sure why. Can you explain?

[tbox8098]

hillbilly,

I am amazed at the lack of knowledge that your teacher has. I am wondering where he s getting his information regarding the longevity of the compreessors and the leaking of the units? There are units that are now going into their 10th and 1th eyar in the field with very minimal issues.

Yes it is true that they operate at higher pressures but the units are designed for this and can withstand the higher pressures.

I pity the man who refuses to embrace change until he is forced to.

[dash]

Originally posted by alexb
Original Poster: Don't whip me too much for this, but I wanted to use my existing Honeywell Programable Tstat becuase I have plaster walls, and took great care to install the Tstat. I don't have any more of the paint that went on the walls, so if a Tstat of different dimension were installed, it might uncover the screw-holes in the plaster, which I couldn't patch.

Does the humidity-control feature of an AH require the use of heat-strips while the compressor is on, like the commercial unit at my workplace? I don't think this is the case. Does the humidity-control feature require something fancier than a standard Honeywell programmable Tstat?

Question: How does a system accomplish de-humidification w/o the temp in the house taking a nosedive? This is where the heat-strips come in, in the Commercial units...

First for dehumididfication,they are set to run at 350 cfms per ton,then while cooling the drop to 80% of 350 cfms per ton,if the humidity is higher then RH set point.

If that doesn't satisfy the RH set point,it can run at the lower cfms for awhile ,over cooling by up to 3°F,which if the RH is high ,isn't that noticable ,as far as comfort.If you get a two stage compreessor this cycle to dehumidify would be in low stage,as while as many other run cycles when the outdoor temp. is lower then say 90to 95 degrees.

No reheat is used.

[dash]

Originally posted by zzyzzx


I'd wouldn't hesitate to use VS due to poor insulation,though it would be smart to increase the insulation and get a smaller system.

VS will usually improve air flow to the ducts/rooms,farthest away from the indoor fan/blower.It has limits and won't correct all the undersized ducts .


I have read this before, but I am not sure why. Can you explain?


Variable sped fans have more ESP capability(ability to move air against duct resistance) ,then most standard fan motors.

[zzyzzx]

Originally posted by dash

Originally posted by zzyzzx


I'd wouldn't hesitate to use VS due to poor insulation,though it would be smart to increase the insulation and get a smaller system.

VS will usually improve air flow to the ducts/rooms,farthest away from the indoor fan/blower.It has limits and won't correct all the undersized ducts .


I have read this before, but I am not sure why. Can you explain?


Variable sped fans have more ESP capability(ability to move air against duct resistance) ,then most standard fan motors.

Then wouldn't it make more sense, from a reliability standpoint, to just get the better fan and use a regular motor and eliminate the VSD? And yeah, I'm an electrical guy.

[alexb]

Original Poster: Please keep debating the merit of vari-speed versus fixed speed, but just wanted to let you know that the AmericanStandard guy was here, and he *listened* to what I wanted. He'll be quoting an Alegience-13 condenser, and he'll quote two AH's. The vari-speed and the high-effieciency multi-speed.

[xv80satisfiedcust]

What sold me on the variable speed was the power consumption, something like 1/4 of a conventional blower.

This is more important for properly sized furnace and AC, because the fan (regardless of variable or fixed speed) will be running more compared to an oversized furnace/AC.

I was impressed with the quietness of low speed fan, but with my heat pump it is most efficient with a high speed fan (variable speed does accomplish this).

[KB Cool]

Originally posted by tbox8098
hillbilly,

I am amazed at the lack of knowledge that your teacher has. I am wondering where he s getting his information regarding the longevity of the compreessors and the leaking of the units? There are units that are now going into their 10th and 1th eyar in the field with very minimal issues.

Yes it is true that they operate at higher pressures but the units are designed for this and can withstand the higher pressures.

I pity the man who refuses to embrace change until he is forced to.


I too believe the systems are designed to withstand the increased pressure of 410a but why do they always go higher psi (r-12,r-22 and now r410) why not go lower? Are the manufactures afraid that their systems may last too long due to a decrease in psi and better manufacturing techniques of today?

[tuklugs]

if you don't buy a furnace with a vari speed motor then it will only cost you more money to operate. when we go on a sale call we push the vari speed furnaces more because of the cost savings.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by xv80satisfiedcust
What sold me on the variable speed was the power consumption, something like 1/4 of a conventional blower.


Yea and if you ever have to replace that motor "out" of warranty you can kiss those savings goodbye those savings "might" equal a wash if your lucky.

[zzyzzx]

Originally posted by xv80satisfiedcust
What sold me on the variable speed was the power consumption, something like 1/4 of a conventional blower.


I don't get it. I would think it would be the same. I mean in theory the motor should be the same and maybe use more electricity if it's set at it's high speed. I'm not sure how the variable speed one defies physics, unless you are running it at a lower speed then a regular one (and again, I am not sure why you would want to reduce your air flow).

[mayguy]

Originally posted by zzyzzx

Originally posted by xv80satisfiedcust
What sold me on the variable speed was the power consumption, something like 1/4 of a conventional blower.


I don't get it. I would think it would be the same. I mean in theory the motor should be the same and maybe use more electricity if it's set at it's high speed. I'm not sure how the variable speed one defies physics, unless you are running it at a lower speed then a regular one (and again, I am not sure why you would want to reduce your air flow).


A regular motor uses AC for running the motor, and avg wattage maybe around 700 watts of power, where a variable speed blower uses DC and will take about 100 watts of power.

My light bill had dropp about an avg of $15 a month with my variable speed blower, and with the old PSC motor, I never ran the fan 24/7, now I do with the variable speed in the winter.

The reduce speed air flow incresses the comfort. You don't get the drafty feeling in the winter, and also does a better humdity control in the summer. Depends on the brand, they all do diffrent way of controling the air speed for dehumid mode. Also with variale speed, if you use fan "ON" mode, the fan runs very quiet, and moves the air slowly and also air filters/cleaner does a better job of cleaning the air when it's passing the filter slower.

[Edited by mayguy on 06-16-2006 at 10:44 AM]

[aircooled53]

Originally posted by alexb
I was just quoted a couple of prices for a simple change-out, from a local Trane dealer. An XR13 unit, and an XL14i unit, both with the TWE Vari-speed AH.

Their equipment cost was the same between R410 and R22, so we got into a discussion about refer. "I wouldn't put that new stuff in *my* house..." he said. "The industry won't fully adopt R410 anyway - there so many drop-ins out there, that everyone will go with those; they're more popular".

I quoted a fact I read on Honeywell's website, about R410 being more efficient at heat-transfer; and this was confirmed by a member here. "Bah! --actually the opposite is true - I'd stick with an R22 system..." he said. He gave me prices of refer -(that I won't mention here), where R410 seemed to cost 120% more than R22.

I've got a bit of an airflow issue in my house; and if I had a vari-speed AH put in, I'd never get air in that paticular room. I asked him about the price diff. between the Trane TWE, and a single-speed unit - "I wouldn't do it.. I wouldn't put it in; you'd have to call another dealer then..." (Scare tactic?)

I can see that this contractor wants things HIS way, and not *MY* way (I'm the guy with the money...) Quote was given in writing, non-itemized. Since there was an existing unit, he didn't do a Man-J calc.

Comments?

If you are spending the money for a quality system then spend a little extra and have duct design done on your home to insure proper airflow to all rooms.

[xv80satisfiedcust]

By running the fan continuously in the summer, I have been able to set the thermostat at 77 instead of 75.