Bid 2, a better Bid, but new questions

[danglerb]

Bid 2 went a lot better, no baloney, a real work order type bid with model numbers and a total with tax etc.

14 Seer and variable speed blower according to this guy aren't good choices for me.

13 Seer is fine with my old lineset, 14 Seer needs larger than my 3/4 vacuum line, and that will be costly to put in, as opening walls and replacing drywall etc.

Variable speed, and I am a little confused still on which bits are required by the variable speed, and which by the higher than 80% furnace that all variable speed blowers seem to come in. Sealed combustion chamber needs its own ductwork for outside air, and my condo associate would go nuts if anybody messes with the new $7k roofs like cutting a hole for a air intake. Double unclear on next part, duct work to rooms would need to be changed somehow.

Bottom line looks like 13 Seer instead of 14, and no variable speed blower, maybe just a cool speed and a heat speed with fan only the same as heat speed.

Models in bid were;
AUD1B080 A9361A
2A7A3036 A1000A
2XUC1336 / 80

I'm off to check them out now, its the base line of American Standard, but maybe thats a good fit for my mild climate etc.

[beenthere]

You can get 80% furnaces with VS blowers the same as 90% units.

[danglerb]

Do you have a brand or model I could look at thats variable speed and single stage?

[BaldLoonie]

I don't think you are being fed correct info. Both the 2A7A3036 and 2A7A4036 come with 7/8" gas line hookup. The chart shows a slight capacity loss using 3/4" copper. I don't recall that it distinguishes between SEER saying that 14 SEER requires a bigger line. I can confirm tomorrow. Now, the 4A7A4036 calls for 3/4" suction line.

There is no single stage furnace with variable speed blower but if you want more winter comfort, you can get the 2 stage 80% with standard blower or with variable speed blower. The 2 stage is quieter on high and extremely quiet on low.

http://www.amstd-comfort.com/Products.asp?Section=homeOwners&ProductID=24&CategoryID=10&SuperCategoryID=1

[danglerb]

Thanks,

Am Std sure gets no points from me on information on the website,its just the brochure with no real information that I could find, not even model numbers.

Guy that was out told me the freon return line would need to be over an inch, I forget exactly, like 1 1/8, which I guess I should have questioned, but 14 seer = new line set did its magic and I was sold on 13. Now unsold.

Same for the furnace, I would really prefer at least a high and low to tighten up the comfort zone, but the cutting a hole in the roof for a inlet air duct isn't going to happen.

Next bid is tomorrow, maybe 3rd time is a charm.

[seatonheating]

You sound like a problem customer. Glad you aren't mine.

I feel bad for the poor sap coming over tomorrow.

[beenthere]

Originally posted by seatonheating
You sound like a problem customer. Glad you aren't mine.

I feel bad for the poor sap coming over tomorrow.


I think he sounds like a customer that was confused by a salesman.

They make 2 stage 80% furnaces, so you can have the same comfort as a 90% 2 stage furnace.

As far as brand, we're a York dealer, so you know what brand I'm partial to.

The others will have their brands.

Right now, I think you need to pick the right contractor first.


With the exception of the modulating furnaces, anything you can get with a 90% furnace, you can get with a 80% furnace excluding the venting requirements.

[danglerb]

Problem customer, hah, I know a guy thats an electrical engineer and a lawyer, me, I'm a pussycat. Car dealers have asked me to leave though.

When I reroofed my house every bid from the worst to the best included a complete bill of materials listing exactly the product that would used, cost of permits, labor, included haul away and cleanup, ie a typical bid for any professional work. First bid had no real information, second one was wrong about key information. Have I really set the bar too high for HVAC?

I wish they didn't waste my time fishing for a sucker, give me the model numbers and price, and I could have given the OK a week ago instead of watching the parade of guys walk around the house then quote me what knew they would before driving up. Its pretty obvious they are using the old used car trick, waste enough of the persons time and eventually they just say where do I sign.

[the dangling wrangler]

Originally posted by seatonheating
You sound like a problem customer. Glad you aren't mine.

I feel bad for the poor sap coming over tomorrow. I don't care for his name either! I'll be watching him.

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by danglerb
Problem customer, hah, I know a guy thats an electrical engineer and a lawyer, me, I'm a pussycat. Car dealers have asked me to leave though.

When I reroofed my house every bid from the worst to the best included a complete bill of materials listing exactly the product that would used, cost of permits, labor, included haul away and cleanup, ie a typical bid for any professional work. First bid had no real information, second one was wrong about key information. Have I really set the bar too high for HVAC?

I wish they didn't waste my time fishing for a sucker, give me the model numbers and price, and I could have given the OK a week ago instead of watching the parade of guys walk around the house then quote me what knew they would before driving up. Its pretty obvious they are using the old used car trick, waste enough of the persons time and eventually they just say where do I sign.

Nobody should ever break down for you how they come up with their price. Bad for the industry, bad for business.

[danglerb]

Originally posted by seatonheating


Nobody should ever break down for you how they come up with their price. Bad for the industry, bad for business.

I guess it would be sweet if you could roll back time to the good old days where each town had one authorized dealer who could set prices and run their business anyway they wanted and still make a good wage. Those times are past. The industry my parents worked their whole life building a business in doesn't even exist in the US anymore.

How does Costco selling whole systems made in China prepackaged on pallets with flat rate installs sound for the industry or business? I give it no more than 5 years or so before somebody does it and makes a fortune doing it.

Keeping prices secret in the internet age won't last nearly as long.

[3sheets]

Originally posted by seatonheating


Nobody should ever break down for you how they come up with their price. Bad for the industry, bad for business. [/B][/QUOTE]

No offense intended here but... as a customer buying anything, if you cant tell me how you got to the price you are charging me, and what is / is not included in that bottome line price, you will not get a penny from me. I AM NOT ASKING YOUR COST, that is none of my business. However, the cost to me IS my business. Also, breaking down a job bid to show exactly what is / is not included will serve to resolve potential disputes at the completion of the job.

Just my $.02
Back to reading...

SDS

[re2ell]

danglerb, have you considered rheem? here's the product data for their 18 seer unit, and using 3/4 suction line capacity is reduced by 0.03%. beings you live in a high electric rate region, i'd give rheem a hard look.

http://216.122.22.11/FetchDocument.aspx?ID=2932f335-7e69-4873-bd60-8d17a5189256

[the dangling wrangler]

DanglerB seems like he'd be every contractor's "best" customer. DanglerB, if you're an electrical engineer/lawyer, why don't you go to a website that you know something about? You know just enough here to be dangerous. Don't start dispensing advice, just after being here and reading a few posts for a couple of weeks. This is how most of us make our living. This is our livlihood. Exactly how many Goodman units have you installed?

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by 3sheets

Originally posted by seatonheating


Nobody should ever break down for you how they come up with their price. Bad for the industry, bad for business.

No offense intended here but... as a customer buying anything, if you cant tell me how you got to the price you are charging me, and what is / is not included in that bottome line price, you will not get a penny from me. I AM NOT ASKING YOUR COST, that is none of my business. However, the cost to me IS my business. Also, breaking down a job bid to show exactly what is / is not included will serve to resolve potential disputes at the completion of the job.

Just my $.02
Back to reading...

SDS [/B][/QUOTE]

Wake up guys!! There is a thing called flat-rate that is very good for business.

Reason being is we don't have to haggle over minor charges of doing business that you guys tend to want to know so much about. It's plainly none of your business, you don't know what costs go into running an HVAC business and frankly(like I've said before) it's none of your business.

Being business owners, we don't just work for an hourly wage, we work to cover all overhead costs involved also.

Run a search on ARPA's posts, he has a real good list that only breaks the surface.

[3sheets]

Too many quotes for me to figure out the right one so I'll just provide a response to the:

"Flat Rate pricing that is very good for the industry"

I dont disagree with that statement. The Service Company I use works on flat rate pricing. However, even the flat rate pricing shows EXACTLY what is included in that fee. I have to say that as a customer paying flat rate pricing I am not sure I like it. I see pros and cons on both sides of the issue. JMO, this a and $5 will get you a Starbucks...

SDS

[Mr Bill]

Do all of you when you go and fill up at the local Shell station ask the dealer there to please break down the price for that gallon of gas? when gas only cost "from my research" .11 cents per gallon, no you don't do that because you have no choice in the matter either you pay it or walk, well what makes the a/c business any different? why do we have to go through all those changes? I know why because you "can" pick on us because were not big oil or electric company, the day I see a customer asking a gas station for a breakdown on that gas "and getting it" will be the day I do the same until then I charge "flat rate" and all my customers seem to have no issues with that, they are just grateful I came out when I said I would and got them cooling or heating and charged a competitive rate, this pricing thing does not have to be a science.

[seatonheating]

Well said Bill.

Listen to him danglerb, he is right.

[ithinktherefore]

Originally posted by 3sheets

Originally posted by seatonheating

No offense intended here but... as a customer buying anything, if you cant tell me how you got to the price you are charging me, and what is / is not included in that bottome line price, you will not get a penny from me. I AM NOT ASKING YOUR COST, that is none of my business. However, the cost to me IS my business.

Amen. Of course having contractors disclose what they're charging you for is bad for the business. All car dealerships would be better off if none of them disclosed what options they were charging you for or how much they were adding to the price. Any dealership can feel free to do it that way with my blessing... but without my money.

For the real pros on here who provide exemplary service and approach the business as craftsmen, there will always be a place for such professionals. It's a changing world, thouth. I get assaulted every time I walk into Home Depot about hvac. The exact same equipment is available on ebay, etc. Understanding without judging that some of your customers are being presented with these options and are curious to understand why one option is twice as expensive as the next shouldn't threaten a professional who knows the benefits they bring to the table and are able to effectively communicate the value of those benefits.

[danglerb]

Holy cow don't you realize that document had information in it!? You could get kicked out of the club and I might learn something dangerous. ;)

I especially liked this part since my #2 bid told me I needed 1 1/8 for higher than a 13 seer. "Do NOT use 11/8" [28.58 mm] OD suction lines in 3-ton applications as they have insufficient velocity for oil return."

**************** Dang Wrang

Sorry for any confusion, I am the pussycat, guy I know is the EE and lawyer, and to tell you the truth the guy enjoys the lawyering WAY too much for me to do business with him.

What fun is dispensing advice if you really know the answer?

I have stated a lot of opinion, but the only advice I have offered is to get 3 bids.

Sorry but I won't install Goodman, since they sell to anyone which is bad for the trade. Be funny if their website listed authorized dealers, regular dealers, and maintenance hacks who moonlight. ;)

**************** Seaton

I don't care if you use a oujii board to price with, I want to be able to compare bids so the contractor doesn't show up and start pointing to stuff that wasn't included, like the junction box and whip that was included in other bid.

**************** MrBill

This is average for branded fuel in California, but I can get unbranded and for other areas easy enough.

2006 June 12,
Distribution Costs, Marketing Costs and Profits $0.15
Crude Oil Cost $1.64
Refinery Cost and Profits $0.82
State Underground Storage Tank Fee $0.01
State and Local Sales Tax $0.24
State Excise Ta $0.18
Federal Excise Tax $0.18
Retail prices $3.23

Sams club has the cheapest gas, but Arco is whats handy for me.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by danglerb
Crude Oil Cost $1.64

Can you please post "proof" of that, I happen to have many relatives in oil and gas and they totally disagree with you.

[seatonheating]

You're wasting your time Bill. He's a "know it all" who won't listen to anyone else. Let him keep thinking this. He'll pay in the long run.

[mdengineer]

Originally posted by mrbillpro
Do all of you when you go and fill up at the local Shell station ask the dealer there to please break down the price for that gallon of gas? when gas only cost "from my research" .11 cents per gallon, no you don't do that because you have no choice in the matter either you pay it or walk, well what makes the a/c business any different? why do we have to go through all those changes? I know why because you "can" pick on us because were not big oil or electric company, the day I see a customer asking a gas station for a breakdown on that gas "and getting it" will be the day I do the same until then I charge "flat rate" and all my customers seem to have no issues with that, they are just grateful I came out when I said I would and got them cooling or heating and charged a competitive rate, this pricing thing does not have to be a science.

My electric bill is broken out into distribution charges, production, taxes, and other fees. Go get some work done on your car? They break out the parts cost, labor cost, and misc fees. You can find information about your localities' gasoline fees and costs online usually. You can then extrapolate from that how much of the price is going back to the oil co and what is going to taxes/fees. Thats about the same I would like out of a HVAC installer. Whats the cost of the equipment, and whats the cost of the labor. I dont need it anymore granular than that.

[mdengineer]

Originally posted by seatonheating
You sound like a problem customer. Glad you aren't mine.

I feel bad for the poor sap coming over tomorrow.

Would a problem customer be one that doesnt say "Ok here is my bank account number, please let me know when you are done the install"?

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

What purpose does seeing the "cost breakdown" serve?

The total cost is the total cost.

Are you going to buy someone elses equipment because its cheaper and my labor because its cheaper?

Thats not how it works...

[christinamurray]

I know that I posted something similar in another thread, but I guess it is relevant here too. Are you asking that in their proposal they give you a price for each individual material that they are using? I list one price and then what it all includes. I am not going to break out things like screws and PVC pipe.
If a customer wants a model number, hey by all means I will give it to them, but I am not sure what more you are asking for from your bids.

[danglerb]

Oil prices are from

http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/margins/index.html

Bottom line and basics is just fine with me. Model numbers are essential since many model names apply to a range of products with very different features and value. It also needs to include or exclude every significant optional part so there is no confusion when the contractor shows up to do the work.

This is required under California contractor law as far as I know, and I have yet to see "real" work order that didn't lay everything like this out in a contract fashion.

Now what may have led to some confusion is that Goodman and their practices came into the discussion, and since they are openly sold by many places on the net, prices of each part were part of the overall information that was disclosed. That DOES make it a bit easier to compare various options, but the total price is the main thing. Prices do slip out on some other brands, some estimators toss them out, the odd bit shows up on ebay and pops up in a searchs, and has exactly the effect contractors worry about, it raises questions with consumers.

[re2ell]

Originally posted by danglerb
Oil prices are from

http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/margins/index.html

Bottom line and basics is just fine with me. Model numbers are essential since many model names apply to a range of products with very different features and value. It also needs to include or exclude every significant optional part so there is no confusion when the contractor shows up to do the work.

This is required under California contractor law as far as I know, and I have yet to see "real" work order that didn't lay everything like this out in a contract fashion.

Now what may have led to some confusion is that Goodman and their practices came into the discussion, and since they are openly sold by many places on the net, prices of each part were part of the overall information that was disclosed. That DOES make it a bit easier to compare various options, but the total price is the main thing. Prices do slip out on some other brands, some estimators toss them out, the odd bit shows up on ebay and pops up in a searchs, and has exactly the effect contractors worry about, it raises questions with consumers.


believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see. . . . . .

your worries will disappear

[billb7581]

I dont understand the problem you guys are having with an itemized estimate. I manage a truck shop and give detailed estimates all the time. People expect it.

[precision hvac]

Itimized bids & invoices invite the shopper. We are flat rate & give 1 price- the final price. All of our the customers want to know final price.
Installation is far more important than price. But you will never convince a shopper of that. They will have HVAC trucks lined up for blocks searching for that low bid.
Break down parts & labor? Why? The bottom line is what's important- not how you arrived there.
So if I break down my materials & labor & the labor takes me longer than expected- can I charge you more? If my equipment prices increase during your install- can I charge you the increase? If joe's price was the same as Jim's price but one's materials were higher but the other's labor was higher- what's the difference? Who are you going to pick?
My bids are very detailed. It will include model numbers & spell out every detail of the install & types of materials, whether the whip is replaced (funny he knows what a whip is), R value of flex & computer Man J load calc. I don't miss a thing- but I've been doing this for 35 years. And at the bottom of estimate is a total. That's what I'm charging you- the total price of install.
No one is complaining here & I can't recall the last time someone asked me to break down the bid.

You were happy w/ the last guy- that's already half the battle. Work with him & stop shopping. What if you get a perfect bid that shows every price breakdown possible & the guy is a jerk. How does that play into your equation?

[danglerb]

The free market is an uncaring wolf that can do a lot of damage to a protected industry. Without the ability to judge value well, most consumers follow price blindly and that puts service oriented quality shops out of business.

Boutique shops where brands protect the territory by limiting the availability to select dealers sometimes works pretty well, but I have seen whole brands collapse when tempted out of that business model. Brands straddle a fence between protecting dealers and margins, and moving volume and getting market share.

Margins are clearly higher with a protected dealer network.

Volume is clearly higher with as many dealers as possible.

Margins pay for research and product advancements, but volume can create higher profit and also adversely effect the competition.

Both business models can work, but if you want good service and support you can't kill the boutique shops.

[danglerb]

Some good words to look at, Shopper, commodity, what happens is that the product gets separated from the expertise to install and service the product.

If you need a quart of oil, all you may consider is price.

If you want Mobil 1, you may still focus on price.

The difference is 89 cents vs $5.

The other part is that if you itemize, customers are going to want to play Legos, want to know why this compressor, why not this coil, and that can take up a LOT of time, not to mention you end up putting in the system that the consumer wants instead of what you think is best, and that can lead to problems later on.

Itemized prices are a slippery slope.

Bottom line price is and was always fine with me.

[precision hvac]

Originally posted by danglerb


Bottom line price is and was always fine with me.

Price shopping over quality installation at it's best.

[billb7581]

Itemized prices are a slippery slope



Why?

I'm not following why you shouldn't expect a detailed itemized estimate for something that you're going to be living with a decade or so?

[summit]

As a self employed HVAC professional there is one big reason why I do not like to break down my price. When people see that you're making $90/hr (as an example) fixing their equipment, they think I'm really making $90/hr. It's very hard to explain to someone that even though I'm working as hard as I can and doing everything right, my wage is actually comparable to someone making $25/hr. People simply dont understand the cost of doing business.

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by summit
As a self employed HVAC professional there is one big reason why I do not like to break down my price. When people see that you're making $90/hr (as an example) fixing their equipment, they think I'm really making $90/hr. It's very hard to explain to someone that even though I'm working as hard as I can and doing everything right, my wage is actually comparable to someone making $25/hr. People simply dont understand the cost of doing business.

Ya, and we're lucky if it is that 90/25 ratio. More often than not it isn't.

[danglerb]

Originally posted by precision hvac

Originally posted by danglerb


Bottom line price is and was always fine with me.

Price shopping over quality installation at it's best.


In a thread about quality installation the topic dwindled down to what sort of prices should be in a bid, specifically in reference to itemized prices vs one price for the job, what I am saying is that one price for the job is just fine with me, that I have no real need for itemized pricing.

[danglerb]

Originally posted by billb7581

Itemized prices are a slippery slope

Why?

I'm not following why you shouldn't expect a detailed itemized estimate for something that you're going to be living with a decade or so?



Detailed listing all the major items and actions, but if the installer isn't willing to sell you one part without the rest whats the point in itemized? Thats the slippery slope, itemizing prices leads to customers who want to juggle items around and your "costs" overall may change as the components change. Maybe your supplier says Hey Joe sell a dozen of these blanks this month and I will take 10% off all of them, its none of the customers business, except maybe how the tax gets calculated.

I've been self employed a long time, know of what you speak. Its not what the rate you charge is, I've worked for all sorts of hourly pay, its something about asking for it that is hard for some of us. Lots of guys I know end up working for job shops just so they don't have to do the asking. If there is a secret handshake to learn, the one I want is the one that lets lawyers toss out $250/hr without flinching.

[billb7581]

It didnt sound like he was even getting a detailed course of action or major equipment used. I wouldn't expect it figured out to the nickle with how much brazing rod you use or whatever, but I'd like to know if the correct high tech thermostat for the furnace or whatever is included, not one of these!

http://www.epa.gov/seahome/images/thermostat.jpg

[ithinktherefore]

Originally posted by danglerb
If there is a secret handshake to learn, the one I want is the one that lets lawyers toss out $250/hr without flinching.

The itemize that bill when you get it. The "secret handshake" is that they are clear and communicative about what you're getting charged for. They also know the value to the customer for what they provide... and they have not problem telling you their "labor cost" (hourly). I've had several businesses. I've always charged more than the competition, and I've never had any issues asking for more money than the guy down the street. It's just not an issue IF you can clearly communicate the additional value you bring. If you can't, you're wasting your time moaning about it, and should just get a job for an hourly wage working for the cheaper guy. I'm sure he's got lots of work, and is probably hiring... constantly.

I had each AC contractor break down the bill by giving me multiple quotes for with and without aircleaner, etc. This way, I could look at merit vs. cost for that contractor in general, and then decide specifics about extras, etc... like do I need all new copper, do I need box rebuilt, or can I salvage, etc.

One of the contractors refused to do this. I told him not to bother wasting ink for the quote he started writing up.

Bottom line is: You should handle your pricing however you see fit. Whether it's because you have a stance on what's a better way of doing things, or you just believe you'll be more profitable one way or the other, then that's what you should do. More power to you.

In the meantime, customers should and will do the same on their end. No matter what business you're in, the reality is that the people you deal with on either end are looking after their own best interests. At best, you might occasionally come across someone with an "enlightened best interest." If you're looking to be miserable in life, a surefire recipe is to trudge forward according to your agenda while begrudging and belittling others for doing the same.

Years ago in another licensed sales position, I rejected a few sales for over $20k each because I didn't feel like dealing with the customer. They were giving me their money, and I wouldn't take it. They acted like I had no right to do that. Wrong. If you don't like a certain customer's questions or approach, don't deal with them... but the fact that they want things itemized or done in a way you discourage doesn't make them stupid, or ignorant of your business model, or mean that they are incapable of understanding business expenses. If anything, whenever a contractor that exhibits that level of projection onto a customer simply because the customer requests clarification of what they're being charged for, it's the contractor who is incapable of grasping the other's perspective.

That being said, it goes without saying that some customers you will run into are just boneheads. c'est la vie.

[sandstone]

Originally posted by seatonheating
You sound like a problem customer. Glad you aren't mine.

I feel bad for the poor sap coming over tomorrow.

Why? Cus hes informed and cares about what is getting put into his house? I dont blame him and i cant stand problem customers, this guy seems to care and that says something. I dont treat my customers like im the big dog and they dont need to know.

[sandstone]

Originally posted by ithinktherefore

Originally posted by 3sheets

Originally posted by seatonheating

No offense intended here but... as a customer buying anything, if you cant tell me how you got to the price you are charging me, and what is / is not included in that bottome line price, you will not get a penny from me. I AM NOT ASKING YOUR COST, that is none of my business. However, the cost to me IS my business.

Amen. Of course having contractors disclose what they're charging you for is bad for the business. All car dealerships would be better off if none of them disclosed what options they were charging you for or how much they were adding to the price. Any dealership can feel free to do it that way with my blessing... but without my money.

For the real pros on here who provide exemplary service and approach the business as craftsmen, there will always be a place for such professionals. It's a changing world, thouth. I get assaulted every time I walk into Home Depot about hvac. The exact same equipment is available on ebay, etc. Understanding without judging that some of your customers are being presented with these options and are curious to understand why one option is twice as expensive as the next shouldn't threaten a professional who knows the benefits they bring to the table and are able to effectively communicate the value of those benefits.

Damn i think that is one of the most intelligent quotes i have ever read on the interne.. no joke!

[ithinktherefore]

Actually, I'm an idiot who can't understand the concept of business expenses.

Pleased to meetcha.

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by ithinktherefore
Actually, I'm an idiot who can't understand the concept of business expenses.

Pleased to meetcha.

Unfortunately most people can't!

Hourly rate is a direct byproduct of cost of living, you can thank our lousy government for that.

Most of us Hvac business owners are in the middle class, which is dwindling further every day. We either charge more or go broke and join the majority these days, the poverty stricken.

[ithinktherefore]

Nothing wrong with charging more, but if that's the path you choose, you're going to need an above average ability to convey the additional value you bring to the table, and an above average level of patience, tolerance, and understanding when customers balk at the pricetag.

[danglerb]

There was a time an honest person could run their business in a simple fair fashion, fixed markups, buy from the suppliers and sell to the customers and everybody is happy. Except for a few lucky areas, that time is past. If you are an authorized dealer for a major protected trade only brand I really don't see what you have to gripe about to me. I do computer work where I have been bid against by high school kids, EVERYBODY thinks they can do the job themselves despite the fact that I have a university degree and 20 years of experience. Beats working for somebody else though.

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by ithinktherefore
Nothing wrong with charging more, but if that's the path you choose, you're going to need an above average ability to convey the additional value you bring to the table, and an above average level of patience, tolerance, and understanding when customers balk at the pricetag.


My customers don't balk. They know I am providing a great service. That is conveyed way before we talk about money.

[ithinktherefore]

Originally posted by seatonheating

Originally posted by ithinktherefore
Nothing wrong with charging more, but if that's the path you choose, you're going to need an above average ability to convey the additional value you bring to the table, and an above average level of patience, tolerance, and understanding when customers balk at the pricetag.


My customers don't balk. They know I am providing a great service. That is conveyed way before we talk about money.


As it should be. I was so blown away years ago by my car mechanic that I bought two more of the same make to be sure I could have him on my team if car ever needed repairs. Once that bond was established, I never haggled over price again... in fact, I usually didn't even ask. I've also since sent him another dozen or so customers.

For every one of him, though, there's a dozen guys out there that just complain about the customers and think they should get paid more just because they've learned a trade.

As to earlier post about lawyers and asking for the money, that's one of the most important skills right there. If anyone thinks they're going to go out on their own and make a lot more money without truly learning how to evoke confidence, they're fooling themselves. No matter what you do in life, one of your main job requirements is to sell yourself. If the customers aren't buying, it's your fault, not theirs... no matter what line of work you're in.

[Edited by ithinktherefore on 06-16-2006 at 09:25 PM]

[re2ell]

Originally posted by ithinktherefore


No matter what you do in life, one of your main job requirements is to sell yourself. If the customers aren't buying, it's your fault, not theirs... no matter what line of work you're in.

[Edited by ithinktherefore on 06-16-2006 at 09:25 PM] [/B]

oh, how true this is!

[re2ell]

Originally posted by danglerb
The free market is an uncaring wolf that can do a lot of damage to a protected industry. Without the ability to judge value well, most consumers follow price blindly and that puts service oriented quality shops out of business.



danglerb, i've got a clear picture of where you are coming from. (had to let this thread simmer for several days in my head)

although i am a mid-westerner, i had the southern California hvac/r service experience for 2 years (1988-89, San Diego) and experienced first hand the deception, poor work ethics, and price gouging of many local service contractors in the San Diego area . now it is very clear to me why you are asking the questions you are asking. i don't blame you. keep asking and eventually the truth of the matter will surface, it just take time.



[Edited by re2ell on 06-17-2006 at 12:19 PM]