ecofreeez EF-22a?

[burgsh&a]

Anyone used this as a drop in for r22? looking for other techs experiences with it. With 22 shooting way up there its turning my head. here is a link to the official web site. http://www.ecofreeez.com/

[ColdAirMan]

"ecoFreeez is made of only the purest refined ingredients available today."

What are those ingredients?

Seems fishy to me. Wonder if it is just reclaimed 22 repackaged. Too many questions. :whistle:

[ColdAirMan]

Propane, Butane and Isobutene

[mark beiser]

It's not like they have SWAT teams on alert ready to actually enforce anything, but so far the EPA has only approved hydrocarbon refrigerants for small domestic and commercial refrigeration appliances...

It is my understanding that if a refrigerant doesn't have SNAP approval for the application, it is technically illegal to replace R-22 with it.

[burgsh&a]

Never mind, They like to disguise the ingredients. after reviewing the msds, Propane? NO NO!
Thanks guys, wishful thinking.

[rdholder]

Some of the new HC, R22 replacement are R1270, it is A3 refrigerant like R290 (propane)

[rdholder]

Out of the MSDS for R-22a

SECTION 2 – PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION AND/OR PROPERTIES
Appearance/Odor: Clear, Colorless; odor added Physical State: Gas
Odor Threshold: None available Specific Gravity: 0.5066
Coeff. Water/Oil Dist.: <1 Evaporation Rate: Rapid
Freezing Point: -305°F Boiling Point: -44.5°F
Vapor Density: (est.) 1.52 pH: N/A
Vapor Pressure: (PSIG) 70 @ 110°F
SECTION 3 – FIRE OR EXPLOSION HAZARD
Auto Ignition Temperature: 873°F
Flashpoint: Not Available Lower Flammable Limit (LEL): 2.15% Upper Flammable Limit (UEL): 9.60%
Extinguish Media: If possible, stop flow of gas. Use water to cool fire-exposed tanks, surroundings and to protect personnel working on shut off. Water spray, dry powder, or carbon dioxide can be directed at flame area to reduce fire intensity. Do not extinguish flames unless leak can be stopped.
Hazardous Combustion Products: Normal combustion forms carbon monoxide.
Sensitivity to Static Discharge: Vapor may ignite if exposed to static discharge.
Explosion Data: Sensitivity to impact. Mixture is not sensitive.
Fire and Explosion Hazard: Flammable vapor may form if allowed to mix with air. Accumulation of gas is an ignition hazard. Vapors are heavier than air and may travel to an ignition source.
SECTION 4 – INGREDIENTS
Hazardous Ingredients % Cas Number LD50 P.E.L. ACGIH TLV UNITS
Alkanes 100 n.ap. 800 ppm 800 ppm
(Enviro-Safe™ Refrigerant contains a trade secret odor of 1% -5% unless otherwise noted.)
SECTION 5 – REATIVITY DATA
Chemical Stability: This material is chemically stable.
Conditions To Avoid: .Avoid sparks, open flame or any source of ignition.
Incompatible Materials: Avoid contact with strong oxidizing agents such as chlorine, permanganates and dichromate’s. Decomposition Products: This product may produce carbon monoxide with a deficiency of oxygen.
Hazardous Polymerization: will not occur.
Polymerization To Avoid: Keep separate from oxidizing agents.

[rdholder]

ecofreeez EF-22a PT is the same as R290 (propane) PT

[jpsmith1cm]

ecofreeez EF-22a PT is the same as R290 (propane) PT

:eek2:

[rdholder]

:eek2:

From the ecofreeez EF-22a MSDS. Vapors are heavier than air and may travel to an ignition source, The Auto Ignition Temperature: 873°F. lower Flammable Limit (LEL): 2.15% in air Upper Flammable Limit (UEL): 9.60% in air.

[MaxwellHVAC]

Just dove in and tried it. The stuff is absolutely amaizing. I ordered a tank 30lbs equivalent. Key word here is EQUIVALENT. You actually get 12lbs net which goes as far as 30lbs of R22. To my surprise it truly does!!!. Used same guages same pressure points. Absolutely Amazing.
Just as they said 1oz of EF-22a = 2.5oz of R22. Lower amps.
A lot cheaper than R22
Very happy:cheers:

[bobboan]

What if an unknowing tech attempts to leak check a system with this in it with an H-10, or even worse, a halyde torch.

I haven't used one of those in over 30 years. I think I've been doing this too long.

[hvaclover]

Just dove in and tried it. The stuff is absolutely amaizing. I ordered a tank 30lbs equivalent. Key word here is EQUIVALENT. You actually get 12lbs net which goes as far as 30lbs of R22. To my surprise it truly does!!!. Used same guages same pressure points. Absolutely Amazing.
Just as they said 1oz of EF-22a = 2.5oz of R22. Lower amps.
A lot cheaper than R22
Very happy:cheers:

Will we ever see you post your own comments, or only when this product is mentioned?

[mark beiser]

What if an unknowing tech attempts to leak check a system with this in it with an H-10, or even worse, a halyde torch.

I don't know about in the US, but there have been injuries, and at least one death that I am aware of, involving technicians servicing or repairing systems that were retrofitted with hydrocarbon refrigerants.
Proper labeling is a big issue.

One big concern I have is with with a certain type of residential installation common in my area.
We have a lot of systems where the air handler, or furnace and coil, are installed in a closet inside the home, often with a water heater in the same closet.
It doesn't take much imagination to see what could happen if something pops loose in the evaporator coil sitting on top of a furnace in a closet next to a standing pilot water heater...

I suspect that that may be part of the reason hydrocarbon refrigerants still don't have regulatory approval for use in anything but small self contained domestic and commercial refrigeration appliances.

I believe it is still technically illegal to retrofit a system with a hydrocarbon refrigerant, so if literally anything at all bad happened, liability would likely be a bit more of an issue than it normally is.

[hvaclover]

Flammable refers are dis allowed in direct expansion systems unless the application is industrial or double indirect chillers. A no no by code.

Don't think they will be in business when they burn down a house.

[mark beiser]

Don't think they will be in business when they burn down a house.

In some states, possibly in jail too.

[hvaclover]

In some states, possibly in jail too.

Y'a know, Mark, I was gonna leave a message on their web-page ...but than I thought,"WTF's the use? These jokers don't give a frick for public safety and won't listen". So the heck with 'em. They are marketing directly to the home owner with that flimsy-quality web page they have. Not wishing harm to anyone, but all it's gonna take is one guy smoking while trying to charge his home ac and that will be it.

[MaxwellHVAC]

I hear what your saying man. But R22 is going out. Millions of existing units need repair and/or service. Dupont's stuff requires all kinds of different oils and s--t plus the price is ridiculous.
I wass concerned about the famability too so I called an inquired. Their answer was that you must have a direct flame to it. Plus every tank comes with labels that you stick oin to the compressor indicating the tech, date, content etc....
Just ordered 25 tanks I'm not going to be a prisoner to R22. Hey the stuff is good for the environment.
I think I'm going to call my accounts and offer a whole new service and that is to switch them over to EF-22a in place of R22. 15 minute stop $ bucks and save the environment. They'll get their money back in energy savings 10 fold over the years.

[TACKERDOWN]

What it you get a leak on a i/d coil over a gas/oil furnace. Aren't you worried it may explode? Gas with standing pilot hmmm

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[Dennis.Moore]

Conditions To Avoid: .Avoid sparks, open flame or any source of ignition.
So when your compressor windings short to ground you've got an ignition within a hermetically sealed system.

[TACKERDOWN]

It's kinda funny this came up. I never new this stuff existed untilled yesterday when a home owner told me he had bought some before and put in his own system before, after I serviced his system. But the condenser was already replaced last year.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[TACKERDOWN]

Conditions To Avoid: .Avoid sparks, open flame or any source of ignition.
So when your compressor windings short to ground you've got an ignition within a hermetically sealed system.

Lol how about when the comp. Terminals blow out, I bet that would ne a cool pic.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[doc havoc]

Conditions To Avoid: .Avoid sparks, open flame or any source of ignition.
So when your compressor windings short to ground you've got an ignition within a hermetically sealed system.

There shouldn't be any oxygen in the system to support combustion.

[Dennis.Moore]

Let's all MAKE SURE WE PURGE OUR GAUGES!

[mark beiser]

I think I'm going to call my accounts and offer a whole new service and that is to switch them over to EF-22a in place of R22. 15 minute stop $300 bucks and save the environment. They'll get their money back in energy savings 10 fold over the years.

Consult with your attorney first to see what he has to say about the potential legal ramifications of you offering such a service.

The service you are planning to offer is in violation of EPA regulations, and may be specifically forbidden in your state/locality.

It just is not worth the liability.

[hvaclover]

I hear what your saying man. But R22 is going out. Millions of existing units need repair and/or service. Dupont's stuff requires all kinds of different oils and s--t plus the price is ridiculous.
I wass concerned about the famability too so I called an inquired. Their answer was that you must have a direct flame to it. Plus every tank comes with labels that you stick oin to the compressor indicating the tech, date, content etc....
Just ordered 25 tanks I'm not going to be a prisoner to R22. Hey the stuff is good for the environment.
I think I'm going to call my accounts and offer a whole new service and that is to switch them over to EF-22a in place of R22. 15 minute stop % bucks and save the environment. They'll get their money back in energy savings 10 fold over the years.



You, Sir, talk like a horse's Patutty,

Do you have a formal education in HVAC? If you did, didn't cover Code an NFPC?

They list those refers as illegal to install in residential systems.

All you need is for one guy to pump a system over and have a leaky service valve,

This stuff already went down over 80 years ago and hundreds were killed. Why do you think they outlawed it?

You care more about promoting a dangerous product than you do public health and welfare and disgracefully using the environment as you moral justification.

Your are being reported to the admin.

[MaxwellHVAC]

Dear HVACLOVER
It seams like you have issues with having gas in your barbeque grill and your hot watertank. I don't know how you've been handling it all these years or maybe you work for Dupont or you expect the entire country to change their equipment. I'm using
EF-22a and the product is formidable absolutely amazing. My guys stick the label, which comes with the tanks, on every job we put EF-22a in so now the next tech that needs to go there knows exactly whats in there. The stuff is not illegal. It is all natural. Perfectly legal and non ozone depleating. What about your concern for the environment do you care at all about that and what R22 is doing? Refrigerantsnaturally.com
Go there and see why Coca Cola, McDonalds, Ben and Jerry's Icecream and Pepsico are all using hydrocarbon refrigerants.

[craig1]

Dear HVACLOVER
It seams like you have issues with having gas in your barbeque grill and your hot watertank.

My main concern would be that those devices, along with the coke and pepsi equipment mentioned at the end if your post, are designed to work with a flammable gas and have been listed as such. An r-22 system is not.

[MaxwellHVAC]

Precisely my point. EF-22 works directly in place of R22. After you install EF-22a you stick the label on the compressor and your done. I don't see any risk here whatsover.
We are being a lot more irresponsible by using R22. Which is distroying our environment.
There is a lot more risk runnig your stove or your furnace.

[mark beiser]

Dear HVACLOVER
It seams like you have issues with having gas in your barbeque grill and your hot watertank. I don't know how you've been handling it all these years or maybe you work for Dupont or you expect the entire country to change their equipment. I'm using
EF-22a and the product is formidable absolutely amazing. My guys stick the label, which comes with the tanks, on every job we put EF-22a in so now the next tech that needs to go there knows exactly whats in there. The stuff is not illegal. It is all natural. Perfectly legal and non ozone depleating. What about your concern for the environment do you care at all about that and what R22 is doing? Refrigerantsnaturally.com
Go there and see why Coca Cola, McDonalds, Ben and Jerry's Icecream and Pepsico are all using hydrocarbon refrigerants.

Regardless of any real or imagined risks or benefits of hydrocarbon refrigerants as retrofits for R-22, what part of "illegal" are you failing to understand?

The regulatory agencies and code bodies we are legally obligated to follow the requirements of have either not approved hydrocarbon refrigerants for anything but small self contained domestic and commercial refrigeration appliances, or expressly forbid their use in residential and commercial air conditioning and refrigeration equipment.

If it isn't specifically listed for the application on the SNAP list, you cannot use it as a retrofit refrigerant for that applicaton, period!

Seriously, consult with your attorney and insurance carrier about it.

Depending on your state/locality, you will likely find that if quite literally ANYTHING bad happened, even many years later, you could potentially be subject to PERSONAL civil and criminal liability, in addition to your normal corporate liability.

Your insurance carrier is likely to be somewhat less than thrilled that you are using the product for something it is not legally allowed to be used for.

As for my BBQ grill and other appliances, they are all installed in accordence with national, state, and local codes, are properly listed for the applicatons, and are installed according to their listing.
Also, no part of the gas supply system on my property is operating at >2 psi, and none of them are things that have a high probability of developing leaks as a consequence of the normal EXPECTED deterioration of the equipment.

[hvaclover]

Precisely my point. EF-22 works directly in place of R22. After you install EF-22a you stick the label on the compressor and your done. I don't see any risk here whatsover.
We are being a lot more irresponsible by using R22. Which is distroying our environment.
There is a lot more risk runnig your stove or your furnace.
i use electric on my stove, Wiseguy, and even if my stove were gas
I would not use a oxy/accy torch on it.

A gas stove and furnace, I know what kind of fuel is supplied to and it has flame safeties to protect against fire hazard.

Where as with your product you have the human element that you have not considered. Not every tech is going to put a service sticker on the equipment.

And I call BS on your Mac Donald's claim. Maybe Coke and the others because they use industrial double indirect systems which is the only apllication it is legal and further, all theses apps are REFRIGERATION ...not PERSONAL COMFORT COOLING you shill.

Don't pull the wool over my eyes, I come from the City that originated the refrigeration Code with the help of a, at the time, very young AHHRAE.

My city experienced all the industrial accidents associated with Hydrocarbon refrigerants and laws were passed nationally to forbid Hydrocarbons use for comfort cooling in residential applications.

[MaxwellHVAC]

Mr Beiser;
You almost seam to sound like you know what your talking about. You are saying its illegal. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS. I assure you and I did a lot of research on this. NO agency in the US of A or abroad are saying that its illegal. You are making a huge assumption which is only showing your limited knowledge. However I do greatly appreciate your concern and understand its value.

[hvaclover]

why haven't the mods closed this thread?


Beenthere....where are you?????????

[hvaclover]

Mr Beiser;
You almost seam to sound like you know what your talking about. You are saying its illegal. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS. I assure you and I did a lot of research on this. NO agency in the US of A or abroad are saying that its illegal. You are making a huge assumption which is only showing your limited knowledge. However I do greatly appreciate your concern and understand its value.
This Forum could deluge you with documentation but you would ignore it.

Tell me, how are you shipping your product? Is it marked as flammable according to federal law?

[MaxwellHVAC]

To hvaclover;

With all due respect to your credentials. Please visit

Refrigerantsnaturally.com

[MaxwellHVAC]

I'm not shipping the stuff myself. But When I do receive it it has a red label that clearly states flamable2

[hvaclover]

Precisely my point. EF-22 works directly in place of R22. After you install EF-22a you stick the label on the compressor and your done. I don't see any risk here whatsover.
We are being a lot more irresponsible by using R22. Which is distroying our environment.
There is a lot more risk runnig your stove or your furnace.

You did not answer the question.

Is the equipment you retrofitted with your product designed and manufactured from the factory to operate on hydrocarbons or not.

I don't expect you to answer cause you know you came to the wrong place to hawk your deadly wares, or you will just spin the answer.

[itsiceman]

Wow Slap a HC sticker on the compressor and thats it. Whada nut!

[hvaclover]

To hvaclover;

With all due respect to your credentials. Please visit

Refrigerantsnaturally.com

I have and I was burned on the job by some well meaning environmentally conscious home owner using your product and others like it.

[itsiceman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7RNYw11XHM&feature=fvst

[jpsmith1cm]

MaxwellHVAC is correct, to a point..

HC refrigerants are making a resurgence with environmental concerns becoming more and more prevalent in people's minds.

McDonalds, Pepsi and Coca-Cola are just a few who are starting to experiment with and utilize HC refrigerants.

The EPA has approved HC refrigerants in limited applications for refrigerators and freezers.

I cannot find ANYWHERE where HC refrigerants have been approved for comfort cooling, NOR can I find anywhere where they have been approved for R-22 retrofit applications.

To do so would be irresponsible at best, and more often would fall into the category of dangerous.

Products such as these, which are marketed to DIYs and Homeowners looking to save a quick buck are frightening and they make me glad that I do not work in the residential sector and won't likely be exposed to a system with a mix of R-22 and Eco-22 or whatever you all want to label R-290 Propane as.

[MaxwellHVAC]

The equipment which I inserted EF-22a in were designed for R22 and EF-22a is a drop in replacement as the manufacturers claim so I took the risk and I tried it in one of my own units and it worked like a charm.
Please understand. It is not a product that a manufacture. It is a product that I purchase and use in my services. Ever since R22 was doomed to extinction I needed to find an alternative and now with the price where it is and had to take action. And all the concerns you have, I had, and I did my part of due diligence. Then I came on this forum to ask if anyone has used it. There are many hydrocarbon refrigerants out there ecofreeez EF-22a happens to be the one that struck me best since it is refined to pharmceutical level.

[hvaclover]

like the video comment...Must be Hank hill.

[jpsmith1cm]

The equipment which I inserted EF-22a in were designed for R22 and EF-22a is a drop in replacement as the manufacturers claim so I took the risk and I tried it in one of my own units and it worked like a charm.
Please understand. It is not a product that a manufacture. It is a product that I purchase and use in my services. Ever since R22 was doomed to extinction I needed to find an alternative and now with the price where it is and had to take action. And all the concerns you have, I had, and I did my part of due diligence. Then I came on this forum to ask if anyone has used it. There are many hydrocarbon refrigerants out there ecofreeez EF-22a happens to be the one that struck me best since it is refined to pharmceutical level.

Have ANY equipment manufacturers approved EF-22 for use in their equipment?

I would look to R-407c or one of the other HFC replacements that are conventionally available to use "in your services" before you cause a fire and wind up in jail, in the poorhouse or BOTH.

I'd also have a long discussion with your insurance company before using another ounce of this stuff.

[MaxwellHVAC]

Hey I'm not here trying to sell the stuff. I came here for a little help and to see if anybody has tried using ecofreeez EF-22a. and now I'm being attacked.
My opinion if anyone cares to be a gentleman and not mock me. I think hydrocarbon refrigerants are here to stay and they are an excellent replacement for R22. In 2015 when R22 is totally off the market what are we to do. Do we stop repairing existing systems?

[hvaclover]

The equipment which I inserted EF-22a in were designed for R22 and EF-22a is a drop in replacement as the manufacturers claim so I took the risk and I tried it in one of my own units and it worked like a charm.
Please understand. It is not a product that a manufacture. It is a product that I purchase and use in my services. Ever since R22 was doomed to extinction I needed to find an alternative and now with the price where it is and had to take action. And all the concerns you have, I had, and I did my part of due diligence. Then I came on this forum to ask if anyone has used it. There are many hydrocarbon refrigerants out there ecofreeez EF-22a happens to be the one that struck me best since it is refined to pharmceutical level.

Than you have committed a felony of reckless endangerment and broke e very safety clause in the Refer clause of the IMC.

You deserve to be hauled before a judge and tried.,

[jpsmith1cm]

Hey I'm not here trying to sell the stuff. I came here for a little help and to see if anybody has tried using ecofreeez EF-22a. and now I'm being attacked.
My opinion if anyone cares to be a gentleman and not mock me. I think hydrocarbon refrigerants are here to stay and they are an excellent replacement for R22. In 2015 when R22 is totally off the market what are we to do. Do we stop repairing existing systems?

I'm not disagreeing with you much.

I'll support HC refrigerants when they are approved by the equipment manufacturers.

I have been nothing but a gentleman to you, sir.

R-22 will NEVER be "totally off the market" you might want to check your EPA guidelines. In fact, I can still buy R-12 and R-502 if I want them. :.02:

As I mentioned in my last post, there are a number of safe, approved R-22 replacements that are available.

A responsible technician will only use safe, APPROVED replacement refrigerants.

[hvaclover]

Hey I'm not here trying to sell the stuff. I came here for a little help and to see if anybody has tried using ecofreeez EF-22a. and now I'm being attacked.
My opinion if anyone cares to be a gentleman and not mock me. I think hydrocarbon refrigerants are here to stay and they are an excellent replacement for R22. In 2015 when R22 is totally off the market what are we to do. Do we stop repairing existing systems?

Don't back peddle on us now that your sales spiel is failing and being exposed for the true hazard it is.

You have been spinning tough question or plain ignoring them and repeating your product name to keep it at the fore front of our attention.

You are sales 101. And you are out classed here. We eat live and sleep sales psychology here. Your a newbie by comparison.

[mark beiser]

Mr Beiser;
You almost seam to sound like you know what your talking about. You are saying its illegal. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS. I assure you and I did a lot of research on this. NO agency in the US of A or abroad are saying that its illegal. You are making a huge assumption which is only showing your limited knowledge. However I do greatly appreciate your concern and understand its value.

I re-reviewed the EPA SNAP rules and find that I was Incorrect.
So far it is only as a replacement for R-12 that all hydrocarbon refrigerants are on the unproved list.

Assuming the manufacturer has actually submitted the refrigerant for SNAP review, per EPA regulations, it is legal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants as a replacement for R-22.

However, hydrocarbon refrigerants are not on the approved list either, so are just one decision away from making either list. If I had to bet on it, I'd put money on them eventually ending up on the unapproved list.

The EPA is not the only authority though, since hydrocarbon refrigerants have no EPA approval, 3rd party listing, or manufacturers approval, they are either directly or indirectly disallowed by state and municipal regulations and/or code interpretations in some areas.

Personally, I would stay away from anything not expressly listed on the SNAP list as an approved replacement for the application I was using it in.

As for your labeling, I sure hope you are doing more than just slapping a sticker the compressor...:whistle:
That is where your real liability exposure will come from.

[MaxwellHVAC]

to hvaclover;

I see that you're an expert in all trades. cooling, Law and now sales. Are you sure you chose you screenname correctly?
Jack of all trades masters of none may have been more appropriate.

[hvaclover]

to hvaclover;

I see that you're an expert in all trades. cooling, Law and now sales. Are you sure you chose you screenname correctly?
Jack of all trades masters of none may have been more appropriate.

The knowledge I and the others possess is what is required to stay in business. That includes law..if you had an HVAC license you would have been tested on it.
HVAC requires skill in plumbing, physics, sheet metal, mechanical ability, chemistry, thermodynamics, electrical, law and so forth.

But you should know that...or are you just masquerading as an HVAC contractor?

[hvaclover]

Man, what a 40 watt bulb....

[ICanHas]

What's the best fittings to interface 1/4" flare to handheld propane torch for demonstration purpose?

There are sketchy resellers online that like to underplay flammability by showing the high auto-ignition temperature, but that means nothing.

Seeing is believing. No better show of flammability than seeing it fuel a torch.

Flammability is dangerous, but it's really the lack of awareness.

When someone sees a gas line, its assumed that it is pressurized with flammable gas. Same with a tank of gas.

There has been fires and burns from dropping aerosol paint or the like near a gas water heater. Imagine accidentally damaging a refrigerant line in crawl space, but continuing with whatever you're doing assuming its R22.... when its actually letting out propane.


someone got hurt...
http://www.osh.govt.nz/publications/series/haz70-coolstore-refrigerant.html

[itsiceman]

That is too bad. Its only a matter of time before there is more like that. Good Idea we may need to test for flammable gas first and not assume anymore. I doubt you need a torch tip to light the stuff. It would probably light right off the tap and through a good size flame. I agree with the down playing of flamibility. Bet they would say its marked flammable gas every way from sunday after a "event"

[mazda8616]

Will we ever see you post your own comments, or only when this product is mentioned?

my problem with all this is. as a consumer in the market place the deletion of this item and others in any market creates a demand that out weighs the value of the product and your service / repairs to a well maintained unit should be few and far between but with manufactures using cheaper as always foreign materials that degeaded faster and cause needless repairs .

WE ALL NO MATTER WHAT WE ARE CONSUMER OR SALE PEOPLE,REPAIR,ETC. NEED TO UNDERSTAND IN A CAPITALIST SOCIETY THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WITH WHAT THEY CALL SUPPLY AND DEMAND .


I CALL IT PRICE GOUGING BY THE MANUFACTURES MAKING THE MOST WHILE THEY CAN WHICH COULD BE UP TO 10 YEARS OR MORE . BUY STOCK NOW HA. HA.

[mark beiser]

Old thread, but anyone looking at hydrocarbon refrigerants as a retrofit in R-22 equipment should read over IMC section 1103.

You should also consult with your insurance provider, and lawyer, about the liability involved if something happens that results in personal injury, death, and/or property damage involving a system that has been retrofitted in violation of the IMC with refrigerants that don't have specific manufacturers and/or regulatory approval.

[jrjdesign]

I hear what your saying man. But R22 is going out. Millions of existing units need repair and/or service. Dupont's stuff requires all kinds of different oils and s--t plus the price is ridiculous.
I wass concerned about the famability too so I called an inquired. Their answer was that you must have a direct flame to it. Plus every tank comes with labels that you stick oin to the compressor indicating the tech, date, content etc....
Just ordered 25 tanks I'm not going to be a prisoner to R22. Hey the stuff is good for the environment.
I think I'm going to call my accounts and offer a whole new service and that is to switch them over to EF-22a in place of R22. 15 minute stop $ bucks and save the environment. They'll get their money back in energy savings 10 fold over the years.

I own 40 apartments and I haave talked to my AC man and asked him about r22 alternatives and no one is telling him about EF-22a....You said you were ordering 25 tanks at the end of 2012...Did you get them and are you having success with this product???? i would appreciate any advice that you could give me.... Rick

[martyinlincoln]

Rick, propane based refrigerants are not on the Federal approved to use SNAP list for AC's in the US at this time. You would be 100% liable for any fire/explosion damage to property or people. Changing compressors,contactors and fan motors to the explosion proof types might keep your insurance carrier and lawyer happy but the cost will be 50x the price of R22.

[beenthere]

Of course, could always do the unthinkable. And fix the leaks. Don't hve to keep topping of then either.

[Thermodynamics]

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but how many homes have propane piped in 1/2 copper? I've come across many gas leaks before that were in a crawl space with a furnace or an attic with a furnace and have never seen a fire or felt the need to evacuate the area. There's alot of smart guys on here and it worries me that everyone fails to realize, hydrocarbon gas requires oxygen to ignite. In a sealed system, there shouldn't be any oxygen. And in the case of a hydrocarbon refrigerant leak causing an explosion, that would require a perfect ratio of air to hydrocarbon gas (Somewhere around 15:1) plus an ignition point (to cause an explosion).

Just something to think about, we already use this kind of gas in our homes and businesses.

[shaka]

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but how many homes have propane piped in 1/2 copper? I've come across many gas leaks before that were in a crawl space with a furnace or an attic with a furnace and have never seen a fire or felt the need to evacuate the area. There's alot of smart guys on here and it worries me that everyone fails to realize, hydrocarbon gas requires oxygen to ignite. In a sealed system, there shouldn't be any oxygen. And in the case of a hydrocarbon refrigerant leak causing an explosion, that would require a perfect ratio of air to hydrocarbon gas (Somewhere around 15:1) plus an ignition point (to cause an explosion).

Just something to think about, we already use this kind of gas in our homes and businesses.


I think your ignition source would be the tech with his welder to repair a leak.
I don't want to be the guy to find out
I actually almost bought this on craiglist
But when I did more research I did not want to take a chance.

[jtk910]

I just checked out the ecofreeez website and in large bold red print at the bottom it says "In the USA only, EF-22a is sold as a second generation replacement for R407a, R404a, and MO99. Outside the US, EF-22a is sold as an R22 replacement." I wonder how many homeowners have watched a youtube video, jumped on amazon and put this into there system with out properly labeling it.

[Thermodynamics]

which technician brazes before recovery of refrigerant?

[toocoolforschool]

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but how many homes have propane piped in 1/2 copper? I've come across many gas leaks before that were in a crawl space with a furnace or an attic with a furnace and have never seen a fire or felt the need to evacuate the area. There's alot of smart guys on here and it worries me that everyone fails to realize, hydrocarbon gas requires oxygen to ignite. In a sealed system, there shouldn't be any oxygen. And in the case of a hydrocarbon refrigerant leak causing an explosion, that would require a perfect ratio of air to hydrocarbon gas (Somewhere around 15:1) plus an ignition point (to cause an explosion).

Just something to think about, we already use this kind of gas in our homes and businesses.

You've obviously never seen a compressor explode. Or even welded on a system with residual freon and oil.

[Freightshaker]

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but how many homes have propane piped in 1/2 copper? I've come across many gas leaks before that were in a crawl space with a furnace or an attic with a furnace and have never seen a fire or felt the need to evacuate the area. There's alot of smart guys on here and it worries me that everyone fails to realize, hydrocarbon gas requires oxygen to ignite. In a sealed system, there shouldn't be any oxygen. And in the case of a hydrocarbon refrigerant leak causing an explosion, that would require a perfect ratio of air to hydrocarbon gas (Somewhere around 15:1) plus an ignition point (to cause an explosion).

Just something to think about, we already use this kind of gas in our homes and businesses.

I thought about it like that too. I would wait for approval by law and insurance though in today's world. Like toocoolforschool mentioned though... Have you ever witnessed a comp blow a terminal out? I have and now always make sure terminal covers are secure. Also wires rubbing copper will eventually ground and then you have high pressure gas meeting ignition. The oil vapor blowing out of a 22 unit will turn into a flame thrower when it meets an ignition source.
If it is approved and I'm aware it is there I could care less.

[Thermodynamics]

You've obviously never seen a compressor explode. Or even welded on a system with residual freon and oil.

I agree, it's illegal and a liability.

But let's say for the sake of argument you evacuate a system, it's not under high pressure anymore. So how much propane will be left in it? Would the flame be like a candle or a mapp gas torch or would it be a straight up explosion? I just don't see how it's so dangerous. It's completely legal for use in refrigeration. In Europe they've been using it for a while.

I went to a copeland compressor class recently the instructor admitted they've been researching propane and co2 for use as refrigerants. He said propane was the most viable considering co2 would require extremely high pressures to be used as a refrigerant.

Think outside the box folks. Alot of you sound like the old timers "you don't need a damn micron gauge" kinda bs. Time's are a changin' get used to it!

[shaka]

I agree, it's illegal and a liability.

But let's say for the sake of argument you evacuate a system, it's not under high pressure anymore. So how much propane will be left in it? Would the flame be like a candle or a mapp gas torch or would it be a straight up explosion? I just don't see how it's so dangerous. It's completely legal for use in refrigeration. In Europe they've been using it for a while.

I went to a copeland compressor class recently the instructor admitted they've been researching propane and co2 for use as refrigerants. He said propane was the most viable considering co2 would require extremely high pressures to be used as a refrigerant.



Think outside the box folks. Alot of you sound like the old timers "you don't need a damn micron gauge" kinda bs. Time's are a changin' get used to it!


You right I'm an old timer
So you think 0 psi means no refrigerant?
Maybe you need more learning young man.

[beastbcrich]

Anyone used this as a drop in for r22? looking for other techs experiences with it. With 22 shooting way up there its turning my head. here is a link to the official web site. http://www.ecofreeez.com/



Try R-407A with P.O.E. oil, I just retrofitted a -25 rack, +10 rack, +25 rack and the A/C and Subcooling +35 rack in a supermarket from R-22 to R-407A, I did get a few leaks at seals due to switching from alka to P.O.E. oil, Other than that it runs slightly higher heads in hotter ambient temps but the supermarket is operating very smooth! No TXV's needed any S.H. adjustment, The compressors actually cycle less saving energy and the Subcooling and A/C +35 rack work excellent!

[beastbcrich]

I agree, it's illegal and a liability.

But let's say for the sake of argument you evacuate a system, it's not under high pressure anymore. So how much propane will be left in it? Would the flame be like a candle or a mapp gas torch or would it be a straight up explosion? I just don't see how it's so dangerous. It's completely legal for use in refrigeration. In Europe they've been using it for a while.

I went to a copeland compressor class recently the instructor admitted they've been researching propane and co2 for use as refrigerants. He said propane was the most viable considering co2 would require extremely high pressures to be used as a refrigerant.

Think outside the box folks. Alot of you sound like the old timers "you don't need a damn micron gauge" kinda bs. Time's are a changin' get used to it!



I did a start up on a supermarket that uses R-408 as a chiller to chill glycol for L.T. and for Med Temp we used CO2, CO2 will be the future of refrigerants, all large markets are starting to convert to these systems, even if you bring a propane system down to 0 psi when being used as refrigerant it gathers in oil and boils off as ambient air hits it creating pressure, weld a oil separator on a propane system that says "0 psi" on your gauges and see how far it throws you back if not kills you.... CO2 and glycol are the future we will see, less energy to run both systems, I started 3 glycol systems now that only hold 250 lbs of R-408 to run a entire store refrigeration.