If this doesn't put a lump in your throat...

[DeltaT]

A very brave young lady. Notice the date of the video...it's present day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0hKEd6rzbeg

[glennac]

A very brave young lady. Notice the date of the video...it's present day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0hKEd6rzbeg

Yeah the UK is gone. They are in the extreme phase of political correctness. It permeates there being. They have extreme free speech as far as minorities condemning their country.

The Muslims opening call for terrorist acts in Britain and get away with it. But let a citizen criticize the Satanic religion of Islam and they are in trouble. UK is gone thanks to PC and fatal disease of liberalism.

[o-ring]

Yeah the UK is gone. They are in the extreme phase of political correctness. It permeates there being. They have extreme free speech as far as minorities condemning their country.

The Muslims opening call for terrorist acts in Britain and get away with it. But let a citizen criticize the Satanic religion of Islam and they are in trouble. UK is gone thanks to PC and fatal disease of liberalism.

Well Put Glenn! It is even worse that any Nationalistic approach from within the country is suppressed by the govt and the Police.

[jmac00]

We have a Grocery store here called Wegmans. It is without a doubt one of the finest grocery stores in the country. They are always in Forbes Top Ten companies to work for.

Yesterday they announced they have a Muslim girl working at the checkout. They put a sign at the front of her lane that reads “If your order contains pork or alcohol product, we respectfully ask that you choose another lane.”


http://www.whec.com/news/stories/s2561824.shtml

It seems most people don't have a problem with this. I DO.

If she was hired to do a job, then she/he should do that job regardless of her religious beliefs. If her/His beliefs interfere with that job, work somewhere else within the company.

Now Wegmans is being prejudice towards Christians and non-muslims


and so it begins :gah:


something else we should ALL keep in mind, 3 thing you need to know about islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgsrnmzxEUY&feature=related

[coolwhip]

One (among many) problem with Islam is that it contains its own set of laws. So when a country allows freedom of religion and open their doors to Muslims, they are essentially allowing people in their country that do not have to abide by the laws of that country.

I believe that England now has Sharia courts. Nice loop hole huh?

[jmac00]

checkout the bottom link in my post.

we should be very concerned with Muslims

[coolwhip]

checkout the bottom link in my post.

we should be very concerned with Muslims

No doubt.

[coolwhip]

It will be happening here soon enough if we keep being idiots.

Gander a slimy eyeball at this!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d5_1333389565

I seriously doubt this will be televised on any news channel in the US, probably not even the UK.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

It won't be long before that's happening in the states...

[Gib's Son]

Merged threads....same video.

[coolwhip]

Merged threads....same video.

Thanks man!

[Some Dude]

Hhmmmm no comment from the lefties or any member of Islam?????

[jmac00]

here is something your children will seriously have to consider.

Muslims are breeding at a much faster rate than Christians, almost 6 to 1.

Now think about this part:

Our country is (was) based on a democratic--MAJORITY RULE. If the Muslims continue to breed and have 5 to 8 children PER family, in two or three generation Muslims could take over the government by voting themselves into power. (it may take 40 to 60 years, but they will get there)

I'll never have to worry about it (none of US will have to worry about it) but our children and their children will.

Muslims are like a cancer, slow, methodical and patent and the won't stop til everyone is a Muslim

it maybe time for another Crusade :whistle::angel:

[printer2]

Hhmmmm no comment from the lefties or any member of Islam?????

Hey, how you doing? :putergreet:

(Guess which one I am.)

[printer2]

Muslims are breeding at a much faster rate than Christians, almost 6 to 1.



I thought I heard the same thing said about blacks at some time.

[jmac00]

I thought I heard the same thing said about blacks at some time.

your hearing sux :grin2: :cheers:

[glennac]

Hey, how you doing? :putergreet:

(Guess which one I am.)

Well printer I had you down for a naive liberal but at least smart enough to see that your "mother country" UK has lost it and don't think they can recover.

I hope you can see that. All of Western culture and civilization is slipping away some are far gone like Britain. Even Australia has changed lots since I was there in the fall of 69 for a week in Sidney on a R&R from our adventure in Nam.

I did not see one Asian or Aborigine in Sidney the whole time I was there. About the time Saigon fell, the conservative government did also and the liberals, socialists and commies opened up immigration to non Western countries with different cultures and "religions" including the Satanic Muslims.

They didn't have to bring the trouble on themselves but the liberals were more than happy just like LBJ did by abolishing our quotas which had about 95% of all immigrants coming from Northern Europe. Yes the liberals happily set us up for suicide in less than a century or so. Thank you, thank you very much

[printer2]

Well printer I had you down for a naive liberal but at least smart enough to see that your "mother country" UK has lost it and don't think they can recover.

I hope you can see that. All of Western culture and civilization is slipping away some are far gone like Britain. Even Australia has changed lots since I was there in the fall of 69 for a week in Sidney on a R&R from our adventure in Nam.

I did not see one Asian or Aborigine in Sidney the whole time I was there. About the time Saigon fell, the conservative government did also and the liberals, socialists and commies opened up immigration to non Western countries with different cultures and "religions" including the Satanic Muslims.

They didn't have to bring the trouble on themselves but the liberals were more than happy just like LBJ did by abolishing our quotas which had about 95% of all immigrants coming from Northern Europe. Yes the liberals happily set us up for suicide in less than a century or so. Thank you, thank you very much


"mother country" UK? Glenn it seems you forgot. We both share the same aryan blood. :cheers:

[glennac]

"mother country" UK? Glenn it seems you forgot. We both share the same aryan blood. :cheers:

Yeah your right there printer. I forgot your parents or grandparents came from a part of East Germany which was confiscated by Poland after WWII and there were mass murders, imprisonment, rapes and confiscation of property, etc. and they indeed suffered.

So I shall cut you some slack there since they were from good stock and from the former "Fatherland".:cheers:. Thank you, thank you very much

[RoBoTeq]

"mother country" UK? Glenn it seems you forgot. We both share the same aryan blood. :cheers:
Aryan? I can believe that you are of Iranian blood, but Glenn is of German ancestry.

Surely you wouldn't be propogating the Hitler myth about an alleged Nordic Aryan, now would you?

[printer2]

Yeah your right there printer. I forgot your parents or grandparents came from a part of East Germany which was confiscated by Poland after WWII and there were mass murders, imprisonment, rapes and confiscation of property, etc. and they indeed suffered.

So I shall cut you some slack there since they were from good stock and from the former "Fatherland".:cheers:. Thank you, thank you very much

I knew you would, hey good memory once prodded.

[barbar]

I am against religion, period!
Free speech is free speech, if it limited then is not free speech. ( i am disgusted in what they said)
There are 2,900,000 millions Muslims, i saw at best 200 in that March.
This represent 0.0001% of the muslim population in the UK.
The UK is small approx 1000miles top to bottom, with good public transport. If this was indicative of the UK Muslims, then this protest would have been bigger. Would you like to be Judged based upon this % proportion of the undesirables in the USA.
Also know your modern history, that Muslims were asked to come the UK (the golden years of employment, when no one wanted the shyty jobs), they did not invade.
The 3 facts to know about Islam, well fact one, completely incorrect, the Koran was not wrtten by a single man, it was written by many over 2 generations, and was complied because bastardization was already occurring in the provenience's. If the author could not the basic correct, neither can you accept any other of his statements.
Going to hell if your are not a Muslim, not different to Christianity, only through Jesus Christ will you receive salvation. Same message, different wording.
As far as religion goes, if we all had the same religion (regardless of which) and all followed the religion to the letter, then the world would be at peace. But mankind rhubarbs that everytime
All the major religions, (by population) have the same God, God is the ultimate power, so all gods laws must by logic transcend all those written by government. ( As I am not man of God this rule does not apply to me, but as many of you claim to be, then Gods law must be the first and final)
As far as muslim population goes, and natural take over, well that is your constitution, the populous determine the governance, easy cure to stop this happening, have more sex!
As far a crusade, who the rhubarb are you going to attack, there is 1,400,000,000 Muslims spread across the globe.
If you want stop Islam, offer them a better alternative.
For me I will stick to the teachings of the Kama Sutra, as long as the back can handle it!

[RoBoTeq]

Barbar, I'll take some of what ever it is you are taking.....:grin2:

[barbar]

Barbar, I'll take some of what ever it is you are taking.....:grin2:

I have to put down to my addiction, KFC, hot n' spicy, who knows what they put in it:cheers:

[RoBoTeq]

I have to put down to my addiction, KFC, hot n' spicy, who knows what they put in it:cheers:
I think the Māori people prefer Muslim's hot-n'spicy. Isn't that how New Zealand keeps their Muslim's from acting like they do in England?

[barbar]

I think the Māori people prefer Muslim's hot-n'spicy. Isn't that how New Zealand keeps their Muslim's from acting like they do in England?

No No, the Maori, are PC, equal opportunity, that will eat anybody as long as they are nice and fatty!

[DeltaT]

Hey, how you doing? :putergreet:

(Guess which one I am.)

You're a Northen-ner.

[DeltaT]

I am against religion, period!
Free speech is free speech, if it limited then is not free speech. ( i am disgusted in what they said)
There are 2,900,000 millions Muslims, i saw at best 200 in that March.
This represent 0.0001% of the muslim population in the UK.
The UK is small approx 1000miles top to bottom, with good public transport. If this was indicative of the UK Muslims, then this protest would have been bigger. Would you like to be Judged based upon this % proportion of the undesirables in the USA.
Also know your modern history, that Muslims were asked to come the UK (the golden years of employment, when no one wanted the shyty jobs), they did not invade.
The 3 facts to know about Islam, well fact one, completely incorrect, the Koran was not wrtten by a single man, it was written by many over 2 generations, and was complied because bastardization was already occurring in the provenience's. If the author could not the basic correct, neither can you accept any other of his statements.
Going to hell if your are not a Muslim, not different to Christianity, only through Jesus Christ will you receive salvation. Same message, different wording.
As far as religion goes, if we all had the same religion (regardless of which) and all followed the religion to the letter, then the world would be at peace. But mankind rhubarbs that everytime
All the major religions, (by population) have the same God, God is the ultimate power, so all gods laws must by logic transcend all those written by government. ( As I am not man of God this rule does not apply to me, but as many of you claim to be, then Gods law must be the first and final)
As far as muslim population goes, and natural take over, well that is your constitution, the populous determine the governance, easy cure to stop this happening, have more sex!
As far a crusade, who the rhubarb are you going to attack, there is 1,400,000,000 Muslims spread across the globe.
If you want stop Islam, offer them a better alternative.
For me I will stick to the teachings of the Kama Sutra, as long as the back can handle it!

The base subject of this video and the Muslim involvement is not about religion. This video is about the actions taken by certain individuals within a certain law abiding country based on common and lawful freedoms.

No actions have been taken as of yet by these groups so they may protest legally all they want just as we can in countries where those freedoms are allowed.

But if you go by their owners manual of the vehicle in which they are riding, violence and disruption are to follow. And that is written in their owners operation manual, call it what you may.

Their are other videos filmed in England where entire sections of streets and communities are being blocked during their prayer times. If Baptists did the same thing believe that the local police would have them removed for obstruction..yet nothing is happening by the authorities. Why do you think that is?

[RoBoTeq]

No No, the Maori, are PC, equal opportunity, that will eat anybody as long as they are nice and fatty!
OK....New Zealand is off of my list of places to visit for a while...:whistle:

[barbar]

OK....New Zealand is off of my list of places to visit for a while...:whistle:
I think you would be safe, you may be fatty, but are you nice "tender".:bump:

[barbar]

The base subject of this video and the Muslim involvement is not about religion. This video is about the actions taken by certain individuals within a certain law abiding country based on common and lawful freedoms.

No actions have been taken as of yet by these groups so they may protest legally all they want just as we can in countries where those freedoms are allowed.

But if you go by their owners manual of the vehicle in which they are riding, violence and disruption are to follow. And that is written in their owners operation manual, call it what you may.

Their are other videos filmed in England where entire sections of streets and communities are being blocked during their prayer times. If Baptists did the same thing believe that the local police would have them removed for obstruction..yet nothing is happening by the authorities. Why do you think that is?

Well I will quote from there owner operator manual,

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

So I do not think you are right about the populous Muslims and the interpretation of their book. It may well be that they do indeed need to promote Islam, but no different to various Christian sects. I get normally every month a couple of polite american boys, promoting the Mormon church. In between times the JW come knocking. "watchtower"anybody?

I can show many videos of the UK, with roads, with nobody on it, some on it.
Roads get blocked very commonly by common folk (white, black etc), normally every saturaday afternoon all over the UK. You want to see the roads on Christams Eve, also blocked as the Once a year Christians come to town.
All your videos will show is that a group of people congregate in communal activity.

You continue to classify a whole group of people by the extremists. I am sorry but that is Just not right!

The fact is many Muslims live in the UK, you can ignore this fact and do nothing, or like the UK you can "attempt" to evolve.

[DeltaT]

Well I will quote from there owner operator manual,

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

So I do not think you are right about the populous Muslims and the interpretation of their book. It may well be that they do indeed need to promote Islam, but no different to various Christian sects. I get normally every month a couple of polite american boys, promoting the Mormon church. In between times the JW come knocking. "watchtower"anybody?

I can show many videos of the UK, with roads, with nobody on it, some on it.
Roads get blocked very commonly by common folk (white, black etc), normally every saturaday afternoon all over the UK. You want to see the roads on Christams Eve, also blocked as the Once a year Christians come to town.
All your videos will show is that a group of people congregate in communal activity.

You continue to classify a whole group of people by the extremists. I am sorry but that is Just not right!

The fact is many Muslims live in the UK, you can ignore this fact and do nothing, or like the UK you can "attempt" to evolve.

You quote, convienently so, the early version of the operators manual. This operators manual that we speak of has a number of different versions. The oldest version is kind and mostly gentle bringing forth all the good in people and treating them with respect for the most part.

The newer version, of which you do not quote interesting enough, uses words with the definitions of infidel and what is allowed to be done to infidels.

For some reason you seem to see what you need to see and attempt to apply that to all reasoning including members on this board.

The law of the land in whatever free country merits our conservations should be the rule for all those who live and visit there. If 2 streets in London are being blocked for Muslim prayers, and they are, then the law enforcement should be equally applied to removing those blockages...but you know all that.

[RoBoTeq]

I think you would be safe, you may be fatty, but are you nice "tender".:bump:
LOL! No, and, I'll bite back!

[Gib's Son]

I think you would be safe, you may be fatty, but are you nice "tender".:bump:


He's got a hard head, that's for sure.:grin2:

[RoBoTeq]

Well I will quote from there owner operator manual,

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

So I do not think you are right about the populous Muslims and the interpretation of their book. It may well be that they do indeed need to promote Islam, but no different to various Christian sects. I get normally every month a couple of polite american boys, promoting the Mormon church. In between times the JW come knocking. "watchtower"anybody?

I can show many videos of the UK, with roads, with nobody on it, some on it.
Roads get blocked very commonly by common folk (white, black etc), normally every saturaday afternoon all over the UK. You want to see the roads on Christams Eve, also blocked as the Once a year Christians come to town.
All your videos will show is that a group of people congregate in communal activity.

You continue to classify a whole group of people by the extremists. I am sorry but that is Just not right!

The fact is many Muslims live in the UK, you can ignore this fact and do nothing, or like the UK you can "attempt" to evolve.
The qur'an is an ingenuisely devised book of commands that allows for deceit when needed and for justifications when needed. There are all sorts of "exceptions" in the commands of the Qur'an that allow the Muslim to show where the qur'an commands them to be peaceful while allowing them to hide the commands telling Muslims how to create situations where it is necessary to be violant against those who are not Muslim;

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

The qur'an is a most amazing book of militaristic rule for society using religious overtones to disguise totalitarian governance. I have no doubt that many Muslims really do believe that Islam is only a religion of peace and not a governing set of rules that includes violent commands for spreading Islamic rule.

[RoBoTeq]

He's got a hard head, that's for sure.:grin2:
Parts of me are brass too....

[Gib's Son]

Parts of me are bra's too....


You had a typo.:bump:

[scrogdog]

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

You mean, like this?


Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

ARP Warning: Christian apologist tap-dance forthcoming!

[barbar]

You quote, convienently so, the early version of the operators manual. This operators manual that we speak of has a number of different versions. The oldest version is kind and mostly gentle bringing forth all the good in people and treating them with respect for the most part.

The newer version, of which you do not quote interesting enough, uses words with the definitions of infidel and what is allowed to be done to infidels.

For some reason you seem to see what you need to see and attempt to apply that to all reasoning including members on this board.

The law of the land in whatever free country merits our conservations should be the rule for all those who live and visit there. If 2 streets in London are being blocked for Muslim prayers, and they are, then the law enforcement should be equally applied to removing those blockages...but you know all that.

Correct I cherry picked a verse, in the same way that others do, all the great books of religions are full of contradictions, how you choose depends upon what you want to read. As it would seem all the members on this board are of a similar leaning, then an alternative interpretation has to be given. Simple agreement, neither makes an argument wright or wrong.

The streets of London, are often blocked when people congregate, I remember going to "QUEEN" the rock band in London, after the concert, road were blocked for miles. Same happens when cycle races and other sports events happen. This is a fact of life when many join for a single event. I see no difference between some going to worship a God or me watching a rock God "Freddie"

[blownfuse99]

We have a Grocery store here called Wegmans. It is without a doubt one of the finest grocery stores in the country. They are always in Forbes Top Ten companies to work for.

Yesterday they announced they have a Muslim girl working at the checkout. They put a sign at the front of her lane that reads “If your order contains pork or alcohol product, we respectfully ask that you choose another lane.”


http://www.whec.com/news/stories/s2561824.shtml

It seems most people don't have a problem with this. I DO.

If she was hired to do a job, then she/he should do that job regardless of her religious beliefs. If her/His beliefs interfere with that job, work somewhere else within the company.

Now Wegmans is being prejudice towards Christians and non-muslims


and so it begins :gah:


something else we should ALL keep in mind, 3 thing you need to know about islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgsrnmzxEUY&feature=related

If I refused to go into any place for almost any reason (unless my safety was at risk) That would be my last day.

[scrogdog]

all the great books of religions are full of contradictions

Ya think? :angel:

[glennac]

You mean, like this?



ARP Warning: Christian apologist tap-dance forthcoming!

Funny nothing Christian about that monologue at all. 100% Jewish. Try the New Testament. That gives the teachings of Christianity but you already know that don't you. Just trying to spin and stir the pot here I guess.

Let's try to be honest, not everyone or should I say most of us are not as dumb as you are implying with your post. Thank you, thank you very much

[scrogdog]

Funny nothing Christian about that monologue at all. 100% Jewish. Try the New Testament. That gives the teachings of Christianity but you already know that don't you. Just trying to spin and stir the pot here I guess.

Let's try to be honest, not everyone or should I say most of us are not as dumb as you are implying with your post. Thank you, thank you very much

Yes, very funny, as those are the words of The God of Abraham.

[barbar]

The qur'an is an ingenuisely devised book of commands that allows for deceit when needed and for justifications when needed. There are all sorts of "exceptions" in the commands of the Qur'an that allow the Muslim to show where the qur'an commands them to be peaceful while allowing them to hide the commands telling Muslims how to create situations where it is necessary to be violant against those who are not Muslim; http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

The qur'an is a most amazing book of militaristic rule for society using religious overtones to disguise totalitarian governance. I have no doubt that many Muslims really do believe that Islam is only a religion of peace and not a governing set of rules that includes violent commands for spreading Islamic rule.

I say this equally to all the religious books, it would take at least a life time to fully understand what has been written.

I would say a failing of the new testament, is how it covers war or lack of!, (which seems to be just the nature of man), as the qu'an makes an attempt for some justification. ( I am not making a judgement on which book is right or wrong or even if either is right or wrong)

If for example. the populous of a religion, determines the direction, then I would have to say that Islam with its 1.4 Billion followers, believe that it is a religion of peace, otherwise logic predicts we would be in a much worst state today than we really are. So based upon that 1.4 Billion people are not out killing infidels, the mass must believe in peaceful side of Islam

[RoBoTeq]

You had a typo.:bump:
I'm still bra less, but I could probably use one.

[RoBoTeq]

You mean, like this?



ARP Warning: Christian apologist tap-dance forthcoming!
What tap dancing? None of these are from teachings of Jesus Christ. Not even the excerpt from Romans is New Testament stuff. Sure, prior to God becoming the spiritual essence of one us mere mortals, God expected more from us, but that all changed with "Christianity".

[RoBoTeq]

Ya think? :angel:
Not much....either of you. Or, maybe you guys think too much. Either way, you sure are missing out on a great thing by only seeking out how others abuse the subject of intelligent design and a continued presence of the designer.

I guess you guys hate the Beatles because Charles Manson acted on things they sang wrongly. How about Alice Cooper? The band must be evil because stupid people did nasty things after seeing them in concert.

Guns are bad because people use them for bad reasons. Ban guns....and vehicles....and knives....and baseball bats.....and hairspray.....and propane.....and dry ice......

[RoBoTeq]

I say this equally to all the religious books, it would take at least a life time to fully understand what has been written.

I would say a failing of the new testament, is how it covers war or lack of!, (which seems to be just the nature of man), as the qu'an makes an attempt for some justification. ( I am not making a judgement on which book is right or wrong or even if either is right or wrong)

If for example. the populous of a religion, determines the direction, then I would have to say that Islam with its 1.4 Billion followers, believe that it is a religion of peace, otherwise logic predicts we would be in a much worst state today than we really are. So based upon that 1.4 Billion people are not out killing infidels, the mass must believe in peaceful side of Islam
Well, since Judeo/Christian scripture is a compilation of dozens of writtings by nearly as many authors over a nearly two thousand year period, and Islamic scripture is the singular thought pattern of one man over a 22 year period, six hundred years after the last words of the Judeo/Christian writings, and, Islamic writings is a mixed bag bastardization of Judaism, Christianity and Quraysh, the pagan tribe of Mohamed's family.
The Kaʿbah housed the deities of visitors as well as the Meccans’ supra-tribal creator and covenant-guaranteeing deity, called Allāh. Most Arabs probably viewed this deity as one among many, possessing powers not specific to a particular tribe; others may have identified this figure with the God of the Jews and Christians. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/295765/Islamic-world/26868/Mecca-under-the-Quraysh-clans

In other words, Mohamed took three of the most influencial faiths of Mecca at the time, two of them historically and theologically intertwined and one of them his families pagan beliefs, and fabricated a tale to incorporate all of them into his new, all encompassing faith based governess of society. Brilliant!

The black stone and the cube shaped structure that housed it, which was the centerpiece of the Arab pagan belief, stayed as a central focal point for Mohamed's newly fabricated creation. Mohamed changed around the reason for the structure and black stone being in Mecca, claiming it was Abraham and Ismael who put them their, 2,400 years before Mohamed was born!

Mohamed completely bastardized the history of the Hebrew Testament and completely rewrote the New Testament, all six hundred years after Jesus Christ walked the Earth as a man.

Anyone who actually takes the time to study how Mohamed connects the dots over a 2,400 year span to make Ismeal the inheritor of the covenant of God to Abraham with no regard whatsoever to the laws of physics that govern time and space must come to the conclusion that Mohamed was lying through his teeth.

[barbar]

Well, since Judeo/Christian scripture is a compilation of dozens of writtings by nearly as many authors over a nearly two thousand year period, and Islamic scripture is the singular thought pattern of one man over a 22 year period, six hundred years after the last words of the Judeo/Christian writings, and, Islamic writings is a mixed bag bastardization of Judaism, Christianity and Quraysh, the pagan tribe of Mohamed's family. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/295765/Islamic-world/26868/Mecca-under-the-Quraysh-clans

In other words, Mohamed took three of the most influencial faiths of Mecca at the time, two of them historically and theologically intertwined and one of them his families pagan beliefs, and fabricated a tale to incorporate all of them into his new, all encompassing faith based governess of society. Brilliant!

The black stone and the cube shaped structure that housed it, which was the centerpiece of the Arab pagan belief, stayed as a central focal point for Mohamed's newly fabricated creation. Mohamed changed around the reason for the structure and black stone being in Mecca, claiming it was Abraham and Ismael who put them their, 2,400 years before Mohamed was born!

Mohamed completely bastardized the history of the Hebrew Testament and completely rewrote the New Testament, all six hundred years after Jesus Christ walked the Earth as a man.

Anyone who actually takes the time to study how Mohamed connects the dots over a 2,400 year span to make Ismeal the inheritor of the covenant of God to Abraham with no regard whatsoever to the laws of physics that govern time and space must come to the conclusion that Mohamed was lying through his teeth.

If others faith is Islam, then your interpretation is incorrect, Mohamed was instructed by god (not my belief) and that is the important bit, and that the earlier teachings of God had been bastastized, by whom ever. He was therefore putting right that was wrong.

I not so much interested in the faith side (as this personal to each and all), but the fact there are many who have faith in differing religions, if the goal, which does seem to be "peace" for all religions, then I do my best to understand, if not accept what each believes. Practically I can not see all following one common thread, so is not best to focus on those who believe the fundamental of the religion is peace, "acceptance of others" and to weaken the extremists/haters on what ever side.

To date, I have not seen any practical religion that deserves my heart and soul. So to that end I give faith to my fellow man (which is shattered many times), but my faith is strong.

[scrogdog]

What tap dancing? None of these are from teachings of Jesus Christ. Not even the excerpt from Romans is New Testament stuff. Sure, prior to God becoming the spiritual essence of one us mere mortals, God expected more from us, but that all changed with "Christianity".

Did I say Christians were violent or something? I did not.

What I said was, these are the words of the God of Abraham.

So, if words make Mohammed or Allah a bad entity, does that mean that The God of Abraham was once bad but is now good?

All religious works ARE contradictory. If the bible was not meant to be taken as a whole, then don't put old and new together.

Jesus came with a sword in the NEW testament, right?

[RoBoTeq]

If others faith is Islam, then your interpretation is incorrect, Mohamed was instructed by god (not my belief) and that is the important bit, and that the earlier teachings of God had been bastastized, by whom ever. He was therefore putting right that was wrong.

I not so much interested in the faith side (as this personal to each and all), but the fact there are many who have faith in differing religions, if the goal, which does seem to be "peace" for all religions, then I do my best to understand, if not accept what each believes. Practically I can not see all following one common thread, so is not best to focus on those who believe the fundamental of the religion is peace, "acceptance of others" and to weaken the extremists/haters on what ever side.

To date, I have not seen any practical religion that deserves my heart and soul. So to that end I give faith to my fellow man (which is shattered many times), but my faith is strong.
Mohamed claimed to hear voices that he assumed were of Allah. Allah was the pagan god of Mohamed's family tribe. Allah is what the pagan Arabs called the black stone in the cubical structure. Claiming that Allah is the God of Abraham was part of Mohamed's scam.

Once again, don't take my word for any of this, get a history of how Mohamed created Islam and see if you don't start thinking; WTF! as mohamed twists history.

As of to date, I do not know of any "religion" that deserves my heart and/or soul either. Religion is created by man, and therefore is deceived by that which is not of God.

I was raised Christian in a not very religious atmosphere, going to a Methodist and later Lutheran church. In my early years, I questioned and then opposed the belief in God because the things I was being told simply did not make any logical sense. In my later teens, I started on a campaign to prove that the belief in God was a sham and a scam.

By my late teens, I had come to the realization that there definitely is a God who is present and active in our lives, but I still continued to study scripture and history to prove that Jesus Christ was either fabricated or a scam artist.

In my early to mid twenties I realized that through constant testing of scripture as if on trial, that Jesus Christ is who He claims to be and I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviouf. Since then, I have tried to relate to many different denominations but cannot get past the dogma of any of them. I even became a reverend of a church centered in California (yes, I can perform weddings and funerals).

Not that the Christians of these religions are not trying to be good people for the most part, just that the dogma does not follow what I get from Christ's teachings.

[RoBoTeq]

Did I say Christians were violent or something? I did not.

What I said was, these are the words of the God of Abraham.

So, if words make Mohammed or Allah a bad entity, does that mean that The God of Abraham was once bad but is now good?

All religious works ARE contradictory. If the bible was not meant to be taken as a whole, then don't put old and new together.

Jesus came with a sword in the NEW testament, right?
Where is there contradiction? The Hebrew Bible is a history of the relationship between God and the Hebrews. God worked differently with mankind prior to becoming one of us in the man Jesus. After having been the spiritual esssence of one of His own creations, looks like God realized that there is no way we can do what He expected of the Hebrews prior to the New Testament.

What? You never made something that didn't quite work the way you expected it to work but you adapted to the way it did work? We are made in the image of God. Since God is not a physical being, we must be made in the spiritual image of God. God is "THE Creator", so like God, we too are creators, just not as good.

[glennac]

Funny about some folks take on the different religions. Many of those who claim to be non religious claim the worse possible things against Christianity and then are in phrase of the evil religion of Islam.

They will go out of their way to defend the Muslims and dismiss their terrorist acts world wide (nearly all are committed by Muslims) while spouting hate towards Christianity.

I find this extremely disingenuous to say the least and intellectually dishonest in every way. This seems to happen all the time on ARP. Perhaps we can call this the hate all religions except love Islam phenomena. Maybe one can think of a better phrase to describe this affection found here:gah::.02:. Thank you, thank you very much

[barbar]

Mohamed claimed to hear voices that he assumed were of Allah. Allah was the pagan god of Mohamed's family tribe. Allah is what the pagan Arabs called the black stone in the cubical structure. Claiming that Allah is the God of Abraham was part of Mohamed's scam.

Once again, don't take my word for any of this, get a history of how Mohamed created Islam and see if you don't start thinking; WTF! as mohamed twists history.

As of to date, I do not know of any "religion" that deserves my heart and/or soul either. Religion is created by man, and therefore is deceived by that which is not of God.

I was raised Christian in a not very religious atmosphere, going to a Methodist and later Lutheran church. In my early years, I questioned and then opposed the belief in God because the things I was being told simply did not make any logical sense. In my later teens, I started on a campaign to prove that the belief in God was a sham and a scam.

By my late teens, I had come to the realization that there definitely is a God who is present and active in our lives, but I still continued to study scripture and history to prove that Jesus Christ was either fabricated or a scam artist.

In my early to mid twenties I realized that through constant testing of scripture as if on trial, that Jesus Christ is who He claims to be and I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviouf. Since then, I have tried to relate to many different denominations but cannot get past the dogma of any of them. I even became a reverend of a church centered in California (yes, I can perform weddings and funerals).

Not that the Christians of these religions are not trying to be good people for the most part, just that the dogma does not follow what I get from Christ's teachings.

I accept your right to your beliefs, I also accept the right of other beliefs. Words written by man on the subject, are just that written by man!

I to was brought up in a Christian community, the church or i should say the preacher, was the "hell and damnation type", "fear of god was his preaching"
That is not what I would want out of a God, (who to date has not shown me anything to prove of viability) I would much rather have a god of love. I have not limited myself to denial or acceptance, if God shows up, then i would follow. Up to then I will focus on what I have here on earth.
I see it this way. when I die!
1, I just convert back to basic molecules, and nothing else
2, I go upstairs
3, I go down stairs (most likely out, out of 2&3)
4, NON of the above.

I will taken this burden on my shoulders alone, I thank those who try to show me away, I release them from any other responsibility, there dues have been met to their gods. I shall follow my own moral compass!
Only God, can change my point of view!

[scrogdog]

Where is there contradiction? The Hebrew Bible is a history of the relationship between God and the Hebrews. God worked differently with mankind prior to becoming one of us in the man Jesus. After having been the spiritual esssence of one of His own creations, looks like God realized that there is no way we can do what He expected of the Hebrews prior to the New Testament.

What? You never made something that didn't quite work the way you expected it to work but you adapted to the way it did work? We are made in the image of God. Since God is not a physical being, we must be made in the spiritual image of God. God is "THE Creator", so like God, we too are creators, just not as good.

You didn't answer my question (s). Bottom line: God instructed men to kill that which did not conform. Exactly what Allah asks.

So, tell me Robo, do you personally consider the Hebrews to have been sub-human?

I guess we should be thankful that God saw fit to shoot the lame horse. Yes indeedy. After all, if a god of any stripe can proclaim something is not human, or not fit to exist, and then kill it by the hand of his servants, what's next?

[scrogdog]

Funny about some folks take on the different religions. Many of those who claim to be non religious claim the worse possible things against Christianity and then are in phrase of the evil religion of Islam.

They will go out of their way to defend the Muslims and dismiss their terrorist acts world wide (nearly all are committed by Muslims) while spouting hate towards Christianity.

I find this extremely disingenuous to say the least and intellectually dishonest in every way. This seems to happen all the time on ARP. Perhaps we can call this the hate all religions except love Islam phenomena. Maybe one can think of a better phrase to describe this affection found here:gah::.02:. Thank you, thank you very much

Glenn, again, I am making no statement as to the current state of Christianity.

Read the arguments and respond. If that's too much for you may I respectfully suggest that you bow out.

[glennac]

Glenn, again, I am making no statement as to the current state of Christianity.

Read the arguments and respond. If that's too much for you may I respectfully suggest that you bow out.

With all due respect scroug my post was not directed at you and I have read your posts. I think robo is doing a good job at respoending to yours on this subject. I find your all's exchange interesting and therefore feel no need too. Hope you have a good night. Thank you, thank you very much

[scrogdog]

Ok bud but I am essentially making the same argument as others just in a different way.

In my mind, if your pissed at them you should be pissed at me! :p

Have a good one. :cheers:

[barbar]

Funny about some folks take on the different religions. Many of those who claim to be non religious claim the worse possible things against Christianity and then are in phrase of the evil religion of Islam.

They will go out of their way to defend the Muslims and dismiss their terrorist acts world wide (nearly all are committed by Muslims) while spouting hate towards Christianity.

I find this extremely disingenuous to say the least and intellectually dishonest in every way. This seems to happen all the time on ARP. Perhaps we can call this the hate all religions except love Islam phenomena. Maybe one can think of a better phrase to describe this affection found here:gah::.02:. Thank you, thank you very much

I know I am on your ignore list, but you are not on mine.
Where does anybody dismiss SOME muslims acts of terrorism?
Was Hitler a muslim? so who has committed most?
Are some defending the "right" to be a Muslim
Are some saying that all Muslims are NOT Terrorists.
Are you denying the fact that SOME christains have commit terrorism.

If all mulsims were as you think, then the whole world would be a mud puddle!

Rhubarb Rhubarb Rhubarb

Taken from the works "Rhubarb" by the great E.Sykes

[RoBoTeq]

I accept your right to your beliefs, I also accept the right of other beliefs. Words written by man on the subject, are just that written by man!

I to was brought up in a Christian community, the church or i should say the preacher, was the "hell and damnation type", "fear of god was his preaching"
That is not what I would want out of a God, (who to date has not shown me anything to prove of viability) I would much rather have a god of love. I have not limited myself to denial or acceptance, if God shows up, then i would follow. Up to then I will focus on what I have here on earth.
I see it this way. when I die!
1, I just convert back to basic molecules, and nothing else
2, I go upstairs
3, I go down stairs (most likely out, out of 2&3)
4, NON of the above.

I will taken this burden on my shoulders alone, I thank those who try to show me away, I release them from any other responsibility, there dues have been met to their gods. I shall follow my own moral compass!
Only God, can change my point of view!
While I don't believe we have any say so in what kind of God the Creator of the Universe is, I do agree that it is doubtful that God is the fire and brimstone creature that some in the religoun business make God out to be. It really perturbs me when those who claim to be follower's of Jesus Christ (God the Father incarnate in the man Jesus) keep going back to Old Testament methods that God used to deal with mankind and ignoring the "NEW" Testament for all of mankind.

In essence, the Hebrew Testament is somewhat of an instruction manual for how we should be living our mortal lives to get the most out of the Universe as it has been designed. Yes; examples are given for the specific tiimes and places for the Hebrews and results of transgressions are noted.

Because of the way the ancients told their stories, a lot of what is thought of by modern man to be "God did this" and "God did that" is really what happened to the characters of the stories in scripture because of the way God designed the Universe, and not a direct action by God.

If I install a wood stove and tell you not put your hand on the top of it and you do so anyway; did "I" burn you to teach you a lesson? Of course not? But that is more the way the ancients communicated God's will. If I were God and it was Palestine 3000 years ago, it would be said that "I" burned you for your disobedience.

As to your last sentence; that is exactly it. All anyone can do is to tell the Good News. We can make the introductions, and that is the extent of our abilities in a relationship between anyone and God.

[RoBoTeq]

You didn't answer my question (s). Bottom line: God instructed men to kill that which did not conform. Exactly what Allah asks.

So, tell me Robo, do you personally consider the Hebrews to have been sub-human?

I guess we should be thankful that God saw fit to shoot the lame horse. Yes indeedy. After all, if a god of any stripe can proclaim something is not human, or not fit to exist, and then kill it by the hand of his servants, what's next?
Pick a passage and let's go through them one by one. Every passage must be taken within the context in which it was designed. The time, the place, the social circumstances etc. all have a bearing on the rationale of the passage. So pick one and let's analyze it.

The same applies to the qur'an, except those who condemn Christian scripture use the same kind of specifications of passages to do so while only using those specifications to condone Islamic scripture. Let's apply the same testing style to all passages of all scripture and see what happens.

I'll even pick a passage from the Hebrew Bible as an example. Leviticus 18-19 is all about sexual relations and other things not to do. The subject begins with this;
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD. Leviticus 20 is about the penalties for Israelites in the desert and in the land of Canaan for committing acts that are tabooed in Leviticus 18-19. So, here is the passage in question;
13 “‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Harsh times requires harsh laws. So, these conditions are being put to the "Israelites" specifically and not to Eqyptians or Canaanites or any others. This is a time when the Hebrews (Israelites) are going to be spending generations wandering in the desert. May I suggest that this specific group of peoples under the conditions they were living would need to have some pretty stern rules?

There is no distinction of time periods for Muslims to kill infidels when infidels oppress Muslims, even if the oppression is commited in the land of the infidel. Then there are commands telling Muslims how to get infidels to oppress them so that they may enact the command to kill the infidels for oppressing them.

[barbar]

Pick a passage and let's go through them one by one. Every passage must be taken within the context in which it was designed. The time, the place, the social circumstances etc. all have a bearing on the rationale of the passage. So pick one and let's analyze it.

The same applies to the qur'an, except those who condemn Christian scripture use the same kind of specifications of passages to do so while only using those specifications to condone Islamic scripture. Let's apply the same testing style to all passages of all scripture and see what happens.

I'll even pick a passage from the Hebrew Bible as an example. Leviticus 18-19 is all about sexual relations and other things not to do. The subject begins with this; Leviticus 20 is about the penalties for Israelites in the desert and in the land of Canaan for committing acts that are tabooed in Leviticus 18-19. So, here is the passage in question; Harsh times requires harsh laws. So, these conditions are being put to the "Israelites" specifically and not to Eqyptians or Canaanites or any others. This is a time when the Hebrews (Israelites) are going to be spending generations wandering in the desert. May I suggest that this specific group of peoples under the conditions they were living would need to have some pretty stern rules?

There is no distinction of time periods for Muslims to kill infidels when infidels oppress Muslims, even if the oppression is commited in the land of the infidel. Then there are commands telling Muslims how to get infidels to oppress them so that they may enact the command to kill the infidels for oppressing them.

I have to agree that all the books need some form of context, and this itself leads to problems of interpretation.

I copy a sort of am opposing opinion to your Islamic claim (not my words)
I have only shown the verses regarding war, and not peace!

This is one misunderstanding that keeps rising up against Islam. Islam does not in anyway allow for the killing of any innocent soul. I have gathered some of the Noble Verses that I am aware of that deal directly with war and peace to shed some light upon my readers.

Noble Verses that order the killing of the enemies:

Let us look at Noble Verses 9:28-29 "O ye believe! Truly the pagans are unclear; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear povery, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, For Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Let us look at Noble Verse 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

As we clearly see in the above Noble Verses, the laws of killing the unbelievers or the pagans were for particular and specific times, and not for all times and all places. Notice the quotes "...after this year..." and "...when the sacred months have passed...".

It is important to know that when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him started preaching Islam, he had to deal with 360 Arab pagan tribes at first, and he and his followers had to go through a lot of battles that were imposed upon them by the pagans who were threatened by the new System and Wonderful Religion of Islam.

[RoBoTeq]

I have to agree that all the books need some form of context, and this itself leads to problems of interpretation.

I copy a sort of am opposing opinion to your Islamic claim (not my words)
I have only shown the verses regarding war, and not peace!

This is one misunderstanding that keeps rising up against Islam. Islam does not in anyway allow for the killing of any innocent soul. I have gathered some of the Noble Verses that I am aware of that deal directly with war and peace to shed some light upon my readers.

Noble Verses that order the killing of the enemies:

Let us look at Noble Verses 9:28-29 "O ye believe! Truly the pagans are unclear; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear povery, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, For Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, from among the people of the book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Let us look at Noble Verse 9:5 "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

As we clearly see in the above Noble Verses, the laws of killing the unbelievers or the pagans were for particular and specific times, and not for all times and all places. Notice the quotes "...after this year..." and "...when the sacred months have passed...".

It is important to know that when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him started preaching Islam, he had to deal with 360 Arab pagan tribes at first, and he and his followers had to go through a lot of battles that were imposed upon them by the pagans who were threatened by the new System and Wonderful Religion of Islam.
Mohamed's entire method of operation after being installed as the chief arbitrator in Medina was to use his continually changing new "religoun/military/governmental" methodology to enrich him through raids on those who opposed him and to convert those who would convert so that they would pay tribute to him. Mohamed became a very wealthy and powerful man by imposing his Islam on all he came in contact with.

Christians and Jews were not required to convert and were somewhat accepted as people of the book (ironically, the very scripture that Mohamed so bastardized). Christians and Jews only were required to pay the tribute and not teach their faiths. It was not until the 19th Century that Muslims started hating Jews and Christians.

Like Socialism, Islam cannot work completely because it is another form of pyramid scam. Islam depends on conquests bringing in more money. Eventually, the conquests are not enough to support the amount of investors. By the 19th Century, there were more Muslims then there were conquests to continue keeping Muslims well off. That is when mass Muslim populations started to become more and more poor. After the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in the beginning of the 20th Century, the wealth in Islamic countries was even more lopsided. That is when Islam became even more militant then it had ever been and more lower class Muslims became ever more abused and persecuted.

In order for Islam to better itself, it needs to take over a massive amount of people and property. So, which countries are going to fall next to Islamic aggression?

[RoBoTeq]

Because of the good things that are taught from the qur'an and the good societal structure and personal discipline that Muslim's acquire from Islam, I will venture to believe that the majority of Muslims worldwide are basically good people who just want to live their lives in relative peace and comfort.

Unfortunately, with the faith overtones of Islam, it is not that far of a stretch to get a good person who is a Muslim to start feeling oppressed and gradually steered into sections of the qur'an that teach the Muslim how to deal with situations of oppression and command the Muslim to act out against those who oppress the Muslim.

Since the qur'an consistantly demonizes non-Muslims as being evil entities, it is not that much of a stretch for Muslims to believe that evil must be eliminated by destroying the vessels of evil, infidels.

[barbar]

Because of the good things that are taught from the qur'an and the good societal structure and personal discipline that Muslim's acquire from Islam, I will venture to believe that the majority of Muslims worldwide are basically good people who just want to live their lives in relative peace and comfort.

Unfortunately, with the faith overtones of Islam, it is not that far of a stretch to get a good person who is a Muslim to start feeling oppressed and gradually steered into sections of the qur'an that teach the Muslim how to deal with situations of oppression and command the Muslim to act out against those who oppress the Muslim.

Since the qur'an consistantly demonizes non-Muslims as being evil entities, it is not that much of a stretch for Muslims to believe that evil must be eliminated by destroying the vessels of evil, infidels.

I can agree on most your statement, and the point raised are used by the power mongers, to influence the majority (in similar way you believe the lefties do), by simply showing a non political forum such as this, to their faithful, they then can justify the aggression to the infidels. I am all for open dialog, we must in my opinion. I know I come across as pro muslim, I am not, I am pro people, the rest is just detail.

Thanks for a more open conversation.

[RoBoTeq]

I can agree on most your statement, and the point raised are used by the power mongers, to influence the majority (in similar way you believe the lefties do), by simply showing a non political forum such as this, to their faithful, they then can justify the aggression to the infidels. I am all for open dialog, we must in my opinion. I know I come across as pro muslim, I am not, I am pro people, the rest is just detail.

Thanks for a more open conversation.
I've taken you for being pro people, just maybe somewhat naive about how well so many people are manipulated. I am a skeptical and cautious person and I have been manipulated before, so it is not difficult to see how people who are more trusting then I am can be manipulated.

So much bad is done in the name of presumed good in every type of organization. It really took a lot of doing for Islam to overtake Christianity for doing wrong for claimed good reasons. I can really relate to this;
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Mahatma Gandhi

[barbar]

I've taken you for being pro people, just maybe somewhat naive about how well so many people are manipulated. I am a skeptical and cautious person and I have been manipulated before, so it is not difficult to see how people who are more trusting then I am can be manipulated.

So much bad is done in the name of presumed good in every type of organization. It really took a lot of doing for Islam to overtake Christianity for doing wrong for claimed good reasons. I can really relate to this;

I may come across as naive, but I am not. I see manipulation around me all the time in all facets, and manipulation is now truly a science. It somewhat difficult to but all my thoughts, down in a few words. So I chose the words that best indicate the overall concept.
I reached my physical goals many years ago (not much different to what most people want), so a new goal I set. Quite simple, for people to "Think", I am not trying to influence the outcome of some ones thought. We are by nature sheeple, and have been influenced from the day we are born. So from time to time, I have to jump into the lions den, to open up people eyes.

I have a little skill in refrigeration, so when asked I teach those who want to know, I do not give the answers, but the tools that an answer can be arrived. I am however there when assistance is required. So i do understand the methodology of the teachings of Christ.

As a side note, during my research, the Muslims call the western world the "the great satan" The reason was not because of us being infidels, generally speaking it comes down to the liberalism of the western sexuality!
I will take the blame for that!

[barbar]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Mahatma Gandhi

Nice words.

My biggest naivety was not understand how right wing and conservative many americans are. I have had little personal experience of real american people, so expected a similar point of view of others in the western world.
I know better now.

[scrogdog]

Pick a passage and let's go through them one by one. Every passage must be taken within the context in which it was designed. The time, the place, the social circumstances etc. all have a bearing on the rationale of the passage. So pick one and let's analyze it.


Under the laws of men, there is no situation where premeditated murder is acceptable. It's not self-defense. It's not protection of life and property. It's murder.

Sorry, but I am not in the moral business, so to speak, of attempting to rationalize or justify murder.

Though, I do consider myself enlightened in that I never before realized that I've been reading the commandments wrong all these years.

Thou shall not kill (unless I tell you to)

There is no way you are going to convince me that under God's very own law, that such conduct is acceptable under any circumstance.

I can't possibly see how this can pass anyone's smell test.

And, of course, do as I say and not as I do leadership is always the best way to go about things.

Yep, right, nothing contradictory here, move along.