Considering Switch from heat pumps

[robotman2009]

Dear hvac-talk gurus,

Recently (January 2012) my wife and I bought a new house...it was built brand new in 2007...only one person lived in it previously. After that person was foreclosed, the bank came in and did some repainting etc. and the house looks great. When we saw the house everything was great. It still is nice. I need some advice though.

Before we moved here we lived in an apartment, a rental house an apartment, a short stint at the inlaws while waiting for house to close, and then now our home. In all of these save my inlaws house, I have experienced some type of allergy symptoms. For example, we moved into the first apartment and mys sinuses went crazy. So we got the ducts cleaned and everything went much better. Still had some surgery on my nose to give me more breathing room which helped. Keep in mind, I don't have a single allergy. I have been tested twice for airborne allergies and once for foodborn allergies. Then after that apartment we moved into a rental house. This place threw my sinus irritation into the stratosphere. So, I thought get the ducts cleaned. The landlady said it was ok but she said the heat pump was only a year old. The duct people came and cleaned and commented that the ducts were clean and the coils were clean but they did their job took my $$$$ and left. It was still really bad. So since my wife and I were finishing someone's lease, we only had to live there for 4 months. Then we moved to another apartment. Here my sinuses went kinda crazy but I think it had more to do with the smoking neighbors on many sides than it did with any heating and cooling issues. When we moved into the inlaws for a period of time while waiting for our house to close, I was in Shangri-La....very little ear issues or sinus issues. Blood pressure was normal....heart rate was normal etc. They had a normal heating and cooling system. Same thing at my dad's house and at my mom's house, sister's house....pretty much anyone with a normal heating and cooling system.

So we move into our house and of course my sinuses go into the stratosphere again along with my blood pressure and heart rate.

I have tried antihistamines, asthma medicine spray antihistamines. It just seems to get worse. What happens is this...we have left the windows open a lot lately since it has been real nice. I notice when the windows are open and the heat pump is not on my sinuses and ears are fine. In fact, when I go outside to relax, they are fine. But the instant ( not after the air has had time to ciruclate a bit) the heat pump kicks on my ears begin popping and feeling stuffy. They stop popping but still feel stuffy and pop everytime I open my mouth.

To deepen the mystery...we had to have an AC guy come and work on the system because the heater wouldn't come on like a week after we moved in. Somebody had installed a heater thermostat on our unit and not a heat pump thermostat. But more importantly, somebody or maybe even the builders had the wires from the electrical box crossed. The 20 amp wires were going to the furnace up in the attic and the 60 amp wires were going to the unit outside. So when the thermostat told the unit up in the attic to kick on the coils, the heat pump unit said ok and then threw the breaker when it tried to get the 40 amps or so it needed to turn on the coild through a 20 amp breaker. Interestingly during this time, mind you I had been paying close attention to my symptoms, when the guy was up fiddling around with the furnace, the furnace kicked on and my ears went bananas, but then stopped. Something the guy did seemed to cause the stuffiness in my ears to go away. But then while he was still up there, the stuffiness came back. So, I don't know what he did, but something he did helped my stuffiness. Also, I've noticed that when the heat pump thermostat has the coils on, my symptoms aren't as bad. That may have been what came on when the guy was up in the attic that made my ears feel better. To my knowledge, the ducts and the coils are clean. He even commented about the coils being clean.

Remember I'm not allergic to anything. After talking to an allergist off and on over the last 4 years, he says I'm sensitive to irritants. My ENT agrees and calls it nonallergic vasomotor rhinitis.

My question is what's up with the heat pumps? My sinuses and ears go crazy whenever I live in a house that has one. So here's my question to the experts. Do they have a higher pressure? Can they leak some chemical in the air? I read a post on webmd about a guy who said something about heat pumps leaking propylene glycol. I need enlightenment because 1)you guys have a lot of experience dealing with the nuances of different heating and cooling systems and because 2) I'm considering buying a new heating and cooling system, but don't want to spend thousands and still have the same problem. If it is the heat pump in some sense, can it be fixed with a visit?

BTW, the house checked out really well during our inspection...no mold...and remember whene the pump isn't on my symptoms go away.

[robotman2009]

This also happened when I lived in a mobile home in Alabama that had a heat pump righ before I got married.

[chuckcrj]

A heat pump does nothing different to the air than any central air conditioner, other than it raises the temperature of the indoor air.

Find a contractor that does Air Advice monitoring for a start. Remove any source of chemical offgassing such as paint cans from the house.

The air in the house needs to be 3 things;
1. Fresh
2. The proper humidity
3. Clean

1. Make sure there is mechanical filtered ventilation such as an Energy Recovery Ventilator.
2. Central mechanical humidification and dehumidification. 40% - 50% RH year around is good. Many central dehumidifiers will also bring in fresh air which would take care of number 1.
3. A good central air cleaner. Look for one that has a MERV rating of at least 16. The Lennox PureAir includes a MERV 16 filter and also destroys chemicals and produces no ozone which is an irritant for many sensitive individuals.

All 3 of those above is expensive, but necessary for a few very sensitive people.

Go to our Indoor Air Quality forum and search for posts by "Genesis". That should keep you reading for a couple hours and give you some good advice. Don't buy anything that produces ozone. Here is a link to one good thread http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=816292

[skippedover]

Whew. You'll likely get many, varying opinions on this one. The first step should be a blower door test (BDT) to determine the tightness of the home. There'll likely be a cost for that but not a bank breaker. Next I'd have a load analysis done to determine if the HP is properly sized for the home. Of even greater interest, however, would be the tightness of the duct system. That is determined by a duct blasting test or it can be determined by an additional step during the blower door test. Not all blower door testers will necessarily be capable of also testing the ducts but you can always ask.

It's very difficult to know what the differences are and if the doctors can't really tell you what's creating your symptoms, it's pretty darned hard for a web site to do so. Things that could be bothersome such as off-gassing from new products. New paint, new carpets, new wood/plywood are things that commonly decrease the indoor air quality and can create problems. The solutions to volitil organic compounds is three fold. #1 is a good quality, low maintenance electronic air cleaner or HEPA filtration system for the duct system. In addition, a good quality, high output ultra-violet light (UVL) without ozone would help control and reproducing organisms in the airstream by altering their DNA to prevent reproduction. Finally, you need a good methodology to control humidity. The tighter the home (see first paragraph for BDT) the less difficult it will be to control the humidity level in winter. In summer, the AC if properly sized will do a good job in the hottest weather but you may need to consider a whole house dehumidifier (WHD) for those times when the AC cycles are short due to lower outdoor temps.

These are all the basics. Once you've accomplished all of those, if your symptoms continue, ask again. We may be smarter next time around. :putergreet:

[robotman2009]

Dear Churckcrj,

Thank you so much for replying. I know this sounds weird.

How do I find a contractor for air advice monitoring? Can I contact the AC guy that came before? Or is that just a whole different animal?

There are no chemicals in the house except under the kitchen sink which is all the way across the big room from the intake.

Before I go spend a lot of money, I really need someone in your field to give me an explanation...mind you this is with all due respect to your expertise and what you have said...if what you are saying is true, then why do my ears and symptoms start the instant the pump comes on. They don't start after the air has had time to circulate and after I've had time to breathe in the air. It starts the second you hear the pump spool up. I've even held my breath for about 30 seconds without breathing in any air when the heat pump comes on in order to test it. Remember I don't have any symptoms when the pump is off. Moreover, there is a signifcant difference between the way I feel in a house with a normal heating and ac than one with a heat pump. My brother-in-law just had a normal heating and ac system installed and my sinus and ear activity at his house are almost zero. He and my sister have a bunch of pets and are not known for their house keeping skills.

[robotman2009]

Incidentally, the painting and the workd done to make the house presentable for sale was done months before we even moved in. Nobody dwelled in the house for at least 8 months at the time we moved in.

[skippedover]

Dear Churckcrj,

Thank you so much for replying. I know this sounds weird.

How do I find a contractor for air advice monitoring? Can I contact the AC guy that came before? Or is that just a whole different animal?

There are no chemicals in the house except under the kitchen sink which is all the way across the big room from the intake.

Before I go spend a lot of money, I really need someone in your field to give me an explanation...mind you this is with all due respect to your expertise and what you have said...if what you are saying is true, then why do my ears and symptoms start the instant the pump comes on. They don't start after the air has had time to circulate and after I've had time to breathe in the air. It starts the second you hear the pump spool up. I've even held my breath for about 30 seconds without breathing in any air when the heat pump comes on in order to test it. Remember I don't have any symptoms when the pump is off. Moreover, there is a signifcant difference between the way I feel in a house with a normal heating and ac than one with a heat pump. My brother-in-law just had a normal heating and ac system installed and my sinus and ear activity at his house are almost zero. He and my sister have a bunch of pets and are not known for their house keeping skills.

Refer to my prior post on this topic but if the return ducts are leaking and allowing the unit to pull outdoor/attic or crawlspace air into the system on start-up, that will increase the pressure in the house (pressurize) ever so slightly and your sensitive ears would react. Once the pressure stabilizes, the symptoms would disappear.

[chuckcrj]

Before I go spend a lot of money, I really need someone in your field to give me an explanation...mind you this is with all due respect to your expertise and what you have said...if what you are saying is true, then why do my ears and symptoms start the instant the pump comes on.

Because the fan is stirring up the air, and the air has something in it that doesn't like you.

Your brother lives in a different house and so it is hard to make any conclusions based on that.

Go to airadvice.com to find a contractor that uses their monitors. They are very in depth and measure many things in your air. We have been able to pinpoint several issues with these. Without some type of testing, it is just guesswork.

[robotman2009]

Thanks skippedover,

FYI...no new carpet either. The carpet was in good enough shape I guess. When we first saw the house, the carpet looked good. I guess that's why they didn't replace it.

Ok cool...thanks for you all's advice. I think I will go with the air quality and blower tests first. Can the guy that does the blower test do the duct tightness test too? Can my AC guy do these tests?

[robotman2009]

Any recommendations for people in Fort Worth, TX for the blower and duct tightness tests skippedover?

[robotman2009]

Nevermind I found the referral service on the website...I noticed while browsing at home depot they have a brochure about this stuff. Is it safe to go though them?

[chuckcrj]

Nevermind I found the referral service on the website...I noticed while browsing at home depot they have a brochure about this stuff. Is it safe to go though them?

It would be safer IMO to use the locator on this website

[robotman2009]

That's what I did...thanks again so much guys. I will keep you posted!

[robotman2009]

I found a place here in town. They charge $ to do the testing to which you both referred. They even said they would send out a guy free of charge to have him look and be in our environment to recommend what we might need.

[robotman2009]

For the record, I am still a little nervous with staying with a heat pump given that two houses in which I have lived that both had heat pumps have caused major issues, but I am going to give it a try.

[energy_rater_La]

what type of heat did the houses without heat pumps have?
are your ducts and heating/ahu in the attic?
return in ceiling or chase in wall?
what kind of insulation is in the attic?

let us know what the expert finds before you sign a contract
for anything.

best of luck.

[mark beiser]

For the record, I am still a little nervous with staying with a heat pump given that two houses in which I have lived that both had heat pumps have caused major issues, but I am going to give it a try.

Truthfully, your problems have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the type of HVAC system you have.

[robotman2009]

energy_rater_LA

The two houses without heat pumps were actually apartments....Had some issues in them but nothing like I did in the rental house and our current house. Yes the ducts in my current house and the previous houses with heat pumps were in the attic. I'm not completely sure of what you mean when you say return in ceiling or chase in wall. In the attic, the insulation is cellulose...the inspector described it as recycled newspaper stuff etc.

Mark beiser

I hear what you are saying and I respect your opinion but why do my symptoms happen really bad in homes with heat pumps? and are almost completely unnoticeable in homes with regular ac and heating systems. Keep in mind, I don't have a single allergy. Are the chemicals used in both systems identical? Do they use the same chemicals to coat things? Do the systems do the same thing with the air?

Thanks to both of you for taking the time to respond.

[energy_rater_La]

sorry, should have just asked where you change the filter.
in the ceiling, or low down on a wall? trying to determine
where your return air is located in the attic.

personally I've never heard of the symptoms you describe
associated with heat pumps. my mind automatically goes
to duct/return leakage & insulation particles as causing
these problems.

think about it
your supply grills are attached to supply boxes in the attic,
on the attic floor. insulation is blown on attic floor next to
supply boxes. if the supply box isn't sealed where it penetrates
the sheetrock ceiling then these insulation particles enter the
house when the unit runs.

if the return air..whether it is in the
ceiling (less area of leakage) or in a chase in a wall (more area to
leak)...is not sealed then these are areas for other
particles to enter the house via the duct system.

sometimes it is the house problems causing problems
like you describe.

all houses are different, not only hvac systems differ,
but installs differ. the other houses could have had different
insulation & your reaction is to the borate treated newspaper
(cellulose).

having a complete air barrier between you and the insulation
in the attic keeps the particulate matter in the attic.
leakage areas, like recessed lights, unsealed penetrations
like supply boxes, around bath fans & stove vents
are entry ways into the house for attic air & insulation particles
to get into the living space.

do a little investigation. go into your attic and take a look
at the ductwork. is it sealed ..and how is it sealed..where the
ducts exit the plenum? do the supply boxes sit flat on the
sheetrock, or is there a gap where the tips of your fingers
fit between the box and the sheetrock?
can you see light at the recessed lights..you gotta have them
if the house was built recently.

describe the return air set up, and what you see with the
above areas.

my thinking is that when the hvac system runs it is pulling
air thru the insulation. these particles are what are causing
you so much grief.

when the system doesn't run..the leaks from the attic aren't
mechanically driven..and symptoms lessen.

just my long distance guess at your problem.
don't be 100% set on it being the heat pump.
it may be a house problem.

did you tell us where you are located?


best of luck.

[Damien]

You say you feel fine with just air circulating but when the heat pump kicks on you go crazy?

Just switch your system over to the back up heat. Gas, electric?

Bam, problem solved!

Maybe I missed it but do you get the same symptoms when running the A/C?

[robotman2009]

Enrgy_rater_la,

I change the air in the filter in the ceiling in the living room. 25x201x1 I think. My parents home and my inlaws both feed through a low point in the door to the furnace. What you say definitely sounds feasible. I will take a trip through my attic. Do I use duct tape to seal them if they aren't sealed? We have recessed lighting so...there are more than the normal amount of holes.

Damien,
Symptoms happen when the AC is on too.

Thank you gentlemen for the post.

[energy_rater_La]

ducts should be mastic sealed.
take a look and tell us what you see.
post pics if you can

best of luck

[robotman2009]

Gentlemen,

After long last, I'm back. You were probably wondering whatever happened to that guy?

Well I took a trip through the attic and just decided to call the Air Rite guy. He seemed helpful and nice. I didn't see any leaks or whatever when I checked the area around the base of can lights or what not.

Here's what the air quality guy said.

Ok...after much time we have the air quality report...to make a long story short...the air quality guy says to some kind of test next where they put plastic over the front door or something. I think that test is to see where the high number of particles are coming from. He wants to put in extra intakes one for each bedroom (3 additional) for the system since we only have one huge20x25x1 in the living room. He said this could help with the humidity etc. He mentioned the possibility of some type of thing that brings fresh air into the house but didn't want to go that far yet. He said the system may just be starving for air and not doing its job correctly because it needs more air intakes. You will notice there is a high allergen and chemical particle count, high CO2, and high humidity....though not too high....oh yeah lower temperature because of high humidity Check out the pics. Please see attached pictures. Symptoms seem to be getting worse since we switched to using air conditioner instead of heater/heat pump. So...the next test would be $$$$ and he said $$$$ for each additional air intake.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Here's the cover sheet
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p505/robotman2009/coversheet.jpg

Outdoor environment rating
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p505/robotman2009/outdoorenvironment-2.jpg

Chemical pollutants
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p505/robotman2009/Chemicalpollutants-3.jpg

Particle Allergens
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p505/robotman2009/ParticleAllergens-4.jpg

Carbon Dioxide
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p505/robotman2009/CarbonDioxide-5.jpg

Relative humidity
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p505/robotman2009/RelativeHumidity-6.jpg

Temperature
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p505/robotman2009/Temperature-7.jpg

[robotman2009]

I forgot to ask in my sloppy post...what do you guys think? Is this guy just trying to run my bill up? Personally, what he says seems to make sense. However, I'm not sure how the additional supply vents will deal with the particles...except to just have more vents in the house.

Ah yes...I am located in East Fort worth. I included an air quality rating for the outdoor air quality in my links above. I think many of you may have been correct about the particles instead of something inherently wrong with a heat pump but I'm not sure....especially now that my symptoms seems to be worse even in AC season. I think there is one thing worthy of note...the ac/heater system has a closed plenum. So...there is no telling what kind of stuff is or is not growing in that part of the system.

My return air (I'm assuming that is the ductwork that returns cool air to the house) is made up of giant hoses that go to each vent. The air rite guy said it might be a good idea to have a supply and a return in each room.

Just some thoughts to kinda dress up what I typed above. I'm really curious to see what you all think about the reports. I'm thinking it is a good thing to go ahead and do the blow test (the test described in my very limited and inaccurate way above) or whatever it is called....and then take it from there with the addtional intakes. I just wanted to see what you all thought.

[catmanacman]

Get a april air 5000 or a trane clean effects air cleaner installed ,of course its allways the hvac that causing the allergy problem

[energy_rater_La]

somewhere in all that paperwork did they take an outdoor
allergen/pollen sample as a baseline?
I see the outdoor temp & RH..but what are the outdoor
allergens?

there should be ambient air sampling to compare
to indoor sampling.

its been a while since I went to iaq classes.
for the most part it was like mold
identification & sampling.
first you have to know what is in the air outside
to compare to what is indoors.

just think about it if outdoor allergens are high
and indoor allergens are high..how is it getting inside?

get the house for air leakage& the ductwork tested
for duct leakage.
seal it up..re-test to verify.

seal return, put in 4" media filter.

don't let companies use scare tatics to
get you to purchase their services.

this is why I got out of mold services. too many
companies using mold as a gold mine.
I found it best to id where moisture was comming
from, and stop it. then remediate. otherwise
you just exacerbate the issues.

best of luck.

[robotman2009]

Yes the outdoor air sampling is included in the test results...the outdoor air seems to be pretty good. In fact when I go outside I feel much better.

[robotman2009]

Thanks energy rater la and catmanacman,

Catmanacman...wouldn't that device be between the filter and the return ducts? If so, wouldn't that do nothing if the particles are being pulled into the house from lose vents etc.?

From what the guy said the humidity may be coming from the house being too tight...the cooler effect is what he called it. It is clear from the reports above that the humidity is higher than normal...this requires us to turn the air lower which could be pulling more particles into the house....yesterday I ran every ventilation fan we have in the house...(1600 square foot house) it seemed to help.

[robotman2009]

I don't know if I mentioned it before but I have a condition known as vasomotor rhinitis...it's basically allergy symptoms without any allergies...it also makes me sensitive to stuff that normally doesn't bother people.

[robotman2009]

I'm going to start a new thread on the new issue given that the original purpose of the post has been met.