Fed up with Manual J!

[confusedHVAC]

I have paid for and received a Manual J (loads by room), Manual S (equipment selection) and Manual D (duct design) design for a heating-only residential project in the San Francisco area. The calculations were done using the ACCA approved WrightSoft software package by a consulting firm in the Midwest who appears to be credible.

So far, I have talked in person or by phone to 9 residential HVAC contractors in the San Francisco area, and each has proposed a system that is 3-4 times larger than the system indicated by the Manual J. Believe it or not, non of them have ever heard of Manual J. Some have refused the job or refused to guarantee it if I insist on the sizing indicated in the Manual J report.

A couple more data points:

My house is 33% the size of the project building and has a furnace with twice the capacity of that proposed by Manual J for the project building.

I have an engineer doing an electrical load calculation for the project. I spoke with his partner, also a licensed PE in California, who does the mechanical engineering work for their firm. He also had never heard of Manual J, but gave me some "rough" rules of thumb for sizing systems in my area (ie: typical BTU per foot, etc).

I am totally confused. If I go with the Manual J calculations and they are wrong, then the duct system will be significantly undersized and it will be very expensive to fix.

Is there any way to validate whether my Manual J calculation is correct (without hiring five engineers and averaging the results)?

Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't just go with the bigger system and play it safe? The additional cost is peanuts compared to the size of the project, we don't have any LEEDS, Energy Star, or regulatory compliance requirements, and the hassle that this is causing doesn't seem to be worth the effort to try and do it the 'technically correct' way.

Thanks in advance for your guidance.

[Hunter844]

I have paid for and received a Manual J (loads by room), Manual S (equipment selection) and Manual D (duct design) design for a heating-only residential project in the San Francisco area. The calculations were done using the ACCA approved WrightSoft software package by a consulting firm in the Midwest who appears to be credible.

So far, I have talked in person or by phone to 9 residential HVAC contractors in the San Francisco area, and each has proposed a system that is 3-4 times larger than the system indicated by the Manual J. Believe it or not, non of them have ever heard of Manual J. Some have refused the job or refused to guarantee it if I insist on the sizing indicated in the Manual J report.

A couple more data points:

My house is 33% the size of the project building and has a furnace with twice the capacity of that proposed by Manual J for the project building.

I have an engineer doing an electrical load calculation for the project. I spoke with his partner, also a licensed PE in California, who does the mechanical engineering work for their firm. He also had never heard of Manual J, but gave me some "rough" rules of thumb for sizing systems in my area (ie: typical BTU per foot, etc).

I am totally confused. If I go with the Manual J calculations and they are wrong, then the duct system will be significantly undersized and it will be very expensive to fix.

Is there any way to validate whether my Manual J calculation is correct (without hiring five engineers and averaging the results)?

Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't just go with the bigger system and play it safe? The additional cost is peanuts compared to the size of the project, we don't have any LEEDS, Energy Star, or regulatory compliance requirements, and the hassle that this is causing doesn't seem to be worth the effort to try and do it the 'technically correct' way.

Thanks in advance for your guidance.

Manual j may not be right for your type of building for starters, sounds like its a multifamily building?

Use the contractor locator map found on this forum...

[second opinion]

I have paid for and received a Manual J (loads by room), Manual S (equipment selection) and Manual D (duct design) design for a heating-only residential project in the San Francisco area. The calculations were done using the ACCA approved WrightSoft software package by a consulting firm in the Midwest who appears to be credible.

So far, I have talked in person or by phone to 9 residential HVAC contractors in the San Francisco area, and each has proposed a system that is 3-4 times larger than the system indicated by the Manual J. Believe it or not, non of them have ever heard of Manual J. Some have refused the job or refused to guarantee it if I insist on the sizing indicated in the Manual J report.

A couple more data points:

My house is 33% the size of the project building and has a furnace with twice the capacity of that proposed by Manual J for the project building.

I have an engineer doing an electrical load calculation for the project. I spoke with his partner, also a licensed PE in California, who does the mechanical engineering work for their firm. He also had never heard of Manual J, but gave me some "rough" rules of thumb for sizing systems in my area (ie: typical BTU per foot, etc).

I am totally confused. If I go with the Manual J calculations and they are wrong, then the duct system will be significantly undersized and it will be very expensive to fix.

Is there any way to validate whether my Manual J calculation is correct (without hiring five engineers and averaging the results)?

Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't just go with the bigger system and play it safe? The additional cost is peanuts compared to the size of the project, we don't have any LEEDS, Energy Star, or regulatory compliance requirements, and the hassle that this is causing doesn't seem to be worth the effort to try and do it the 'technically correct' way.

Thanks in advance for your guidance.

If the individuals that you are dealing with have no idea what a manual J load calculation is it would be in your best interest to walk away. You will end up calling a lot of companies that do not have a clue what they are doing in this industry, but do not give up hope.

At the top of the page when you log in is a load calculation that you can do that will give you an idea what your home needs. Post a copy of the load calculation that was done

[jimj]

Ask your California contractors if they have ever heard of title 24? And what title 24 bases it's loads on?:whistle:

If your PE has never heard of manual J.:gah:

[confusedHVAC]

Thanks for your comments and help. Yes, this is a residential project.

Attached is the Manual J report done for the project building. Please let me know if you see any errors/problems or have any questions about the design assumptions.

Despite all the attention/press given to Manual J, I have come to understand that there are two other acceptable load calculation systems in addition to ACCA's Manual J. These are California's Title 24 and ASHRAE, and I assume both have their own software programs to do the calculations. To be fair to the PE I referenced in my earlier post, he implied in our conversation that he used Title 24 for load calculations. But I was still shocked that he didn't know what Manual J was.

For this project we also had a Title 24 report (a requirement in California) done early in the project in order to get the building permit. My impression is that in California, the State mandated Title 24 reports for residential structures, as long as you "pass" and don't require a HERS inspection, etc., are pretty much done for permit sign off purposes and aren't used or are accurate enough for HVAC system design. My Title 24 report for this building was considerably less detailed (for instance, no duct design) and informative as my Manual J and D reports that I had done. If you'd like to see the Title 24 for this building I can post it. None of the California HVAC contractors I've talked to have asked to see the Title 24 report.

In our case the Title 24 report showed a total building load a little over double what the Manual J showed. I asked the Manual J consultant how this could be, and they 'reconciled' the two and said 1) the actual ratings of the installed windows/doors is much better than the assumptions made in the Title 24 calcs, and 2) the Title 24 calcs had significant heat loss from fireplaces.

The fact that the Manual J consultant could account for the differences was reassuring and suggested to me that the Manual J consultant knows what he is doing. However, there were other things said/done by this consultant that didn't really pass the 'common sense' test to me, which is why I'm nervous about throwing caution to the wind and buying the Manual J calculation without further investigation.

The issue is that if the numbers/design of the Manual J consultant are wrong on the down side, the fix will be extremely costly. If I go with the larger system that everyone else proposes, I really have no risk.

How do I figure out who is right? Who do I believe when there is a lot of money at stake?

Please let me have your thoughts and advice.

Thanks.

[beenthere]

Manual j is based on ASHRAE.

He is already recommending furnace with a 50% larger output then what the manual J load requires. What size are the other contractors recommending?

[ckartson]

My own experience with manual J has worked. I don't do any residential or sizing for that matter but did in school so for my home I pulled out my 25 year old notes and followed the forms and calcs. I own an older home, 1958 and had a 125,000 btuh furnace 80%. After calcs I put in a 75.000. I was apprehesive but I checked my numbers and remembered how my furnace cycled on zere degree days, on for maybe 15 min off for 5. Back on for 15 min etc. After install unit is on, on zero degree days for almost a full hour off for a couple of minutes. My gas consumpsion dropped by a third consistantly. I do wish I put in the 2 stage system but they were pricey at the time. I would follow manual J but if a PE is involved they are putting their name on the final result. Also as was mentioned as far as multi dwelling goes is there ventilation air (OA) being supplied. Do we have to consider walls adlacent to other units as conditioned spaces or exterior in case a unit is empty and the equipment shut off? Just askin.

[behappy]

You are listed as a new guest....
My experience with WrightSoft is that someone using it for the first time will screw up big time.

Any experienced contractor using this type of software will hit it on the nose every time. :angel:

Key work is experience.

[jpsmith1cm]

Learn-never-end

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[ckartson]

behappy, I'm not a new guest, and I said that manual J did work for me. Are you replying to confused hvac?

[classical]

Confused, I use Manual J on every job I do for many years and it still shocks me at the size of equipment recommended. Contractors have used rule of thumb for so long (which is always grossly oversized) that thy are afraid to install properly sized systems. They have the same fears you do.

I routinely install three ton systems where five ton systems were before and I have had no complaints.

You need to find a local contractor that will perform their own load calculation and stand behind their work. No credible contractor should or would go on the strength of someone else's load calculation and be responsible for the results.

You asked what the consequences of over sizing will be, you will have higher utility bills, short cycling poor comfort and shortened equipment life. If you were having A/C installed over sizing would be a bigger problem regardless proper sizing is always preferable.

[precision hvac]

Manual J is only as good as the entered data.
Wrong data- wrong results.
Every contractor should know what Man J is, so those who don't- I'd eliminate from my list. As for refusing the job- I wouldn't take a job based on someone elses calcs either. I'd do my own & guarantee the outcome.

[Mr Bill]

This is a perfect example of why I will always support a "separation" of energy auditors and people who perform manual J, from the day to day A/C & Heating business. If the A/C company was not involved in the manual J there would be no confusion,as we see here, "and" it would let the responsibility fall upon one company. Maybe if I preach this sermon long enough, or enough A/C businesses end up in court because of a bad manual J, they will eventually get the message. How on earth a day to day small A/C business can afford to send out a $25.00 hr. tech to perform a manual J, and possibly "NOT" get the job is beyond me. :gah:

[skibme]

+ 1 precision hvac

[skippedover]

I run manual 'J' calcs on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times in a day. So for giggles, I checked a house on which I did a load calculation yesterday for my area, which is south of Boston, MA. The heating need at 0°F for that 3300 sq. ft. home was 73,233. However, when adjusted up to 38°F, as would be anticipated, the load dropped to 34,582 or to less than 1/2 of what was needed at 0°F.

The problem you are encountering is resistance to science. If none of the HVAC contractors has heard of Manual 'J', then they likewise are probably ignorant of the Air Conditioning Contractors Association, ACCA, NFPA and the many other alphabet groups that strive to keep people safe and comfortable.

http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12340

Above is a website you may want to visit. You can copy it and show it to your nay saying contractors who should be ashamed that they don't even know about Manual 'J' when it's cited in Department of Energy educational literature. Perhaps your contractors can't read???

Stick to your guns. My only concern about the whole issue is using one furnace to do an entire 13,000+ square foot home. Personally, I'd shop very, very, very (did I say very?) carefully because the potential for gross discomfort in a home of this size is great and if these guys and gals don't know Man 'J', then they certainly don't know Manual 'D', which is where the other half of the knowledge issue really can rear it's ugly head.

As an additional thought, it is entirely likely that on a job of this scope, the GC has been consulting with commercial companies rather than residential companies. In our state, where sheet metal licensing (any air system that moves mechanically is now required to be installed by a licensed sheet metal mechanic) was recently enacted and where a home of greater than 35,000 CUBIC feet requires a ratio of 1 to 1, journey man to apprentice on the job, is basically pushing large homes to toward the commercial market. The commercial market uses Manual 'N' and most frequently the calculation is done by a mechanical engineer so that the HVAC companies only have to install, install, install. Could you be suffering such a fate?

[btuhack]

I'm a little leery to respond to a poster building a 14000 s/f luxury house with no a/c(?), but will anyway.

The problems as I see them:
7 btu's per s/f is a big red flag, triple it and I'd still be a skeptic that needed proof. Did I read the report wrong? 100k furnace serving 14K s/f?

1 furnace/3.5 mil to build? ? Give me a break. "oh, were gonna zone it"...please. break it down to unit per floor, or unit per exposure. Short sighted design with no logic or creativity. Define the outcome and work back to the best solution


Call Mechanical Air Service and see what they have to say about the project. I don't know them or seen their work, but they have many awards and promote themselves as "the best ever". Who knows, they may live up to their opinions of themselves.

[arc8]

Confusedhvac,

Your house must be big for a 60k btus heat loss.
Is cooling not needed there?

I do manual J calcs with heating & cooling to determine the greater of airflows. With what you have so far; an 80kbtu 3-ton furnace might be adequate, perhaps a 4-ton instead.

Manual J's are one part, but if manual D and manual S are ignored why do HVAC companies even talk about "manual J"!

All architects, PE's, and ME's should know about MANUAL J! There is something wrong when they don't.



So far, I have talked in person or by phone to 9 residential HVAC contractors in the San Francisco area, and each has proposed a system that is 3-4 times larger than the system indicated by the Manual J. Believe it or not, non of them have ever heard of Manual J. Some have refused the job or refused to guarantee it if I insist on the sizing indicated in the Manual J report.

Would they guarantee and warranty everything they put in? Would they guarantee comfort, high efficiency, durability at at least 5 years (parts and labor) for their design and install; I think not!! They would probably only cover the equipment, like most do.

I say keep searching.

[ga-hvac-tech]

This is a perfect example of why I will always support a "separation" of energy auditors and people who perform manual J, from the day to day A/C & Heating business. If the A/C company was not involved in the manual J there would be no confusion,as we see here, "and" it would let the responsibility fall upon one company. Maybe if I preach this sermon long enough, or enough A/C businesses end up in court because of a bad manual J, they will eventually get the message. How on earth a day to day small A/C business can afford to send out a $25.00 hr. tech to perform a manual J, and possibly "NOT" get the job is beyond me. :gah:

Hey Mr Bill,

Good points... I have been wondering how long it would be until this "load calc" issue became an irritation in the industry... here are my thoughts:

I know I would NEVER install a system and guarantee it based on someone else's load calc... that is just spitting into the wind IMO.
On the other hand (OTOH), I do not do free load calcs either.
The reason for this view is simple: There are some subjective things in a load calc (things that cannot be accurately & scientifically measured); and as such ultimately the opinion of the one doing the calc affects the end result. Having said this; a THOROUGH energy audit will catch the better part of these issues... however maybe not so well on new construction.

I think as soon as the economy firms up a little... load calcs will no longer be free... which IMO will be good for the industry.

[skippedover]

So Mr. Bill, you would have the jobs reduced to the lowest bid then, correct? If all the HVAC companies are forced to rely on a 3rd party load calculation, duct analysis, Manual 'T' outlet sizing and Manual 'S' equipment selection, what's left except the install? And how does a company separate itself from the rest under those circumstances? By claiming to be better?

One pays for the cost of load calcs by having it done by a professional sales person who works on commission. Make the sale, get paid. Don't make the sale, no pay. And I for one am not about to stake my reputation on someone elses determination of what is a proper load calculation. My company has removed thousands of furnaces, boilers, AC and HPs, by far the vast majority improperly sized. So while you may have a hard time understanding how run a business, some of us have it figured out pretty well so it works for everyone. :.02:

[ga-hvac-tech]

OK, I have read the second page of the thread and looked at the load calc attached.

MeThinks a 100K furnace for a home of this size is waaay out of line; regardless of the numbers. For one thing; the ductwork to distribute this small volume of air over a home of this size would be a real mess. Personally, I would not even touch this job... because of the potential problems.

As noted in previous posts: I would keep shopping until you find someone that understands Manuals J, D, and S... then have them look over your plans. If they are interested in your project, only then tell them you have a load calc already done.

My guess is the contractor will want to do another one... as they will be wary of this one... you probably will have to pay for that.

The bottom line: While all us contractors want to do work; we also do not want to get involved in a project that will not function properly... and this project has that issue written all over it.

I am not trying to be negative... just prepping you to understand the local contractor is probably going to want more control over the load calc, duct plan, and equipment selection. There is more going on here than just numbers and specs and prices... Just the way things work.

[ga-hvac-tech]

So Mr. Bill, you would have the jobs reduced to the lowest bid then, correct? If all the HVAC companies are forced to rely on a 3rd party load calculation, duct analysis, Manual 'T' outlet sizing and Manual 'S' equipment selection, what's left except the install? And how does a company separate itself from the rest under those circumstances? By claiming to be better?

One pays for the cost of load calcs by having it done by a professional sales person who works on commission. Make the sale, get paid. Don't make the sale, no pay. And I for one am not about to stake my reputation on someone elses determination of what is a proper load calculation. My company has removed thousands of furnaces, boilers, AC and HPs, by far the vast majority improperly sized. So while you may have a hard time understanding how run a business, some of us have it figured out pretty well so it works for everyone. :.02:

Unfortunately... what would happen is the installs would be seriously compromised... and even IF the right size equipment and ductwork was spec'd and installed... it would not work properly.

As noted in my previous post... there is a lot more going on here than numbers and details and prices.

[second opinion]

OK, I have read the second page of the thread and looked at the load calc attached.

MeThinks a 100K furnace for a home of this size is waaay out of line; regardless of the numbers. For one thing; the ductwork to distribute this small volume of air over a home of this size would be a real mess. Personally, I would not even touch this job... because of the potential problems.

As noted in previous posts: I would keep shopping until you find someone that understands Manuals J, D, and S... then have them look over your plans. If they are interested in your project, only then tell them you have a load calc already done.

My guess is the contractor will want to do another one... as they will be wary of this one... you probably will have to pay for that.

The bottom line: While all us contractors want to do work; we also do not want to get involved in a project that will not function properly... and this project has that issue written all over it.

I am not trying to be negative... just prepping you to understand the local contractor is probably going to want more control over the load calc, duct plan, and equipment selection. There is more going on here than just numbers and specs and prices... Just the way things work.

I gathered from the OP's original post is that finding a contractor that was aware of what a load calculation is, could not be found after contacting 9 purported HVAC contractors. I do not find that surprising at all.

[classical]

Looking at the load calc provided I can easily believe that the load is only 60K especially with a 38* outdoor design temp. My house in Houston was built in 1971 has minimal wall insulation and old single pane windows, the indoor temp does not drop below 50* on days in the mid thirties if we do not run the heater. I also agree that one furnace of any size will be inadequate for the airflow requirements.

I also wonder at the lack of A/C for a large tight home, in the long run this is going to come back to haunt you.

I would not use a manual J I would run a manual N commercial load calc and have a commercial company design and install the system. From the drawings I would look at hydronic hating and going with a Unico SDHV (small diameter high velocity) system using their unchiller for A/C and heat.

If you contact UNICO directly they will connect you with a trained and certified UNICO installer and help with the design and sizing of the system.

[Mr Bill]

So Mr. Bill, you would have the jobs reduced to the lowest bid then, correct? If all the HVAC companies are forced to rely on a 3rd party load calculation, duct analysis, Manual 'T' outlet sizing and Manual 'S' equipment selection, what's left except the install? And how does a company separate itself from the rest under those circumstances? By claiming to be better?

One pays for the cost of load calcs by having it done by a professional sales person who works on commission. Make the sale, get paid. Don't make the sale, no pay. And I for one am not about to stake my reputation on someone elses determination of what is a proper load calculation. My company has removed thousands of furnaces, boilers, AC and HPs, by far the vast majority improperly sized. So while you may have a hard time understanding how run a business, some of us have it figured out pretty well so it works for everyone. :.02:

You will never understand what it's like in the summer in Houston Texas running a small business with one other service tech and a install crew. So in your world one of us service techs "since were not Microsoft" and don't have a commissioned salesman like you, we have 20 service calls in one day and backing up, because now I have one of us techs on a load calc. I see it on both sides of the fence, if your a big co. go for it, in Houston you would lose you butt, especially a small A/C business. :gah:

[Mr Bill]

My company has removed thousands of furnaces, boilers, AC and HPs, by far the vast majority improperly sized. So while you may have a hard time understanding how run a business, some of us have it figured out pretty well so it works for everyone. :.02:

Hallelujah! Do you look like your neighbor? no I doubt it, see I don't want to do business like you, why? because I am different than you, how hard is that? Jeeezzzzz! :grin2:

[ga-hvac-tech]

You will never understand what it's like in the summer in Houston Texas running a small business with one other service tech and a install crew. So in your world one of us service techs "since were not Microsoft" and don't have a commissioned salesman like you, we have 20 service calls in one day and backing up, because now I have one of us techs on a load calc. I see it on both sides of the fence, if your a big co. go for it, in Houston you would lose you butt, especially a small A/C business. :gah:

Hey Bill,

My approach is to explain load calcs to the HO... and give them a hard $$$ Proposal that states we will do the load calc AFTER the sale is made. Most of the folks I talk to are agreeable to that... unless they are trying to get a free load calc... in which case it is likely a Craig's list guy (hack) will be doing the install. Either way... no sale for me; so no load calc for them.

[enb54]

Perhaps you folks in California can enlighten me, just curious.

I looked over that pdf the OP posted, and noted a basement and wall construction insulated with R19 and ceiling of R30, some double and some single glazed windows, solid core exterior doors and "tight" construction for a total home area of 13,945 sq. ft. The load calculation for this area with a design temperature of 38F (rise to 70F) is 60,385 BTU/hr, so that means the average new home in California only requires about 4.33 BTU/hr per sq. ft. on the coldest day?

The carrier furnace appears to be oversized based on the figures published, but man, that is one big area for only one furnace...

Just thinking out loud...

[Mr Bill]

And I for one am not about to stake my reputation on someone elses determination of what is a proper load calculation..

O God! I may as well with that kind of thinking, fire my install crew. Heck! I for one am not about to stake my reputation on someone elses installation.....:grin2: :grin2: :grin2: Heck, give me some credit, at least I have heard of a LC... :grin2: You should be out promoting it to folks that have not heard of one...you can start in California. :grin2:

[ga-hvac-tech]

Looking at the load calc provided I can easily believe that the load is only 60K especially with a 38* outdoor design temp. My house in Houston was built in 1971 has minimal wall insulation and old single pane windows, the indoor temp does not drop below 50* on days in the mid thirties if we do not run the heater. I also agree that one furnace of any size will be inadequate for the airflow requirements.

I also wonder at the lack of A/C for a large tight home, in the long run this is going to come back to haunt you.

I would not use a manual J I would run a manual N commercial load calc and have a commercial company design and install the system. From the drawings I would look at hydronic hating and going with a Unico SDHV (small diameter high velocity) system using their unchiller for A/C and heat.

If you contact UNICO directly they will connect you with a trained and certified UNICO installer and help with the design and sizing of the system.

While I do not have much UNICO experience, I think the idea of hydronic (or elec baseboard) heat might be good. With the size of the home and the small heat requirement... elec baseboards will not be that much cost to operate... vs the cost of ducting a house of that size.

And yes, I think you WILL need AC sooner or later... so not installing it would IMO be a mistake.

[enb54]

While I do not have much UNICO experience, I think the idea of hydronic (or elec baseboard) heat might be good. With the size of the home and the small heat requirement... elec baseboards will not be that much cost to operate... vs the cost of ducting a house of that size.

And yes, I think you WILL need AC sooner or later... so not installing it would IMO be a mistake.

I don't live in California, but visited many times our relatives in Anaheim, and tend to agree with your assessment...

[udarrell]

IMO, One furnace & air handler with that amount of duct run would not begin to pass a Manual D check on it.

It appears to be way too much duct system for a small CFM furnace air handler to begin to deal with.

It makes sense to me to divide the rooms served to two furnace & duct system setups. That is the only way I'd ever begin to tackle this gigantic situation, & then, not without the aid of a zoning expert.
Am I off base on this...?

Guess they're trying to zone it so somehow it could work.

I am not a zoning expert; you experts on zoning, can they make it pass a manual D checkup, by using zoning techniques?

[classical]

I remember a quote by Samuel Clemmens (Mark Twain) "The coldest winter I ever saw was summer in San Francisco" so A/C may not be necessary for most or older homes. However a tight home is going to breed humidity and that will need to be dealt with.

[Mr Bill]

Hey Bill,

My approach is to explain load calcs to the HO... and give them a hard $$$ Proposal that states we will do the load calc AFTER the sale is made. Most of the folks I talk to are agreeable to that.....

John, what do you base you price on, existing equipment price? I don't care what anyone says here, the only person I personally know of in Houston and "I know a ton of my competitors", that can sale a smaller tonnage A/C system in Houston is Al "classical". You come down here and do all your LC's and present it to the customer, and tell them we can reduce you a/c size from 5 ton to 3.5 ton. Yea right! 99% of the time, especially if they have been in Houston all their life, they will tell you to hit the road Jack. Everyone seems to be living in the dream world that think LC's are the silver bullet to the correct system, well I have news for you, you can chunk that LC, unless your doing duct work also for just one example, and most all duct work everywhere is incorrect. Man we sure have some dreamers here, I really wished they would come open up a business in Houston, they would sink like the Titanic the first year doing a LC on every job. :grin2: O once again for the record, I do condone the LC for all you that think I don't, my opinion is someone else should be doing them, not me, man the dreamers should seize the moment, start you LC and energy audit business, if your in Houston, I will give you all my business. :grin2:

[ga-hvac-tech]

IMO, One furnace & air handler with that amount of duct run would not begin to pass a Manual D check on it.

It appears to be way too much duct system for a small CFM furnace air handler to begin to deal with.

It makes sense to me to divide the rooms served to two or three furnace & duct system setups. That is the only way I'd ever begin to tackle this gigantic situation, & then, not without the aid of a zoning expert.
Am I off base on this...?

Guess they're trying to zone it so somehow it could work.

I am not a zoning expert; you experts on zoning, can they make it pass a manual D checkup, by using zoning techniques?

A few mos back, there was a thread by a guy that found a VERY VERY VERY (did I say VERY) complicated zone system that literally could move the heat from one room to the next, and move the cool from one room to the next with the next cycle. The programming alone made my head swim when I read the website.

I think the name of the system was 'My Temp'... but I am not sure on that.

This may be an option... however I can ASSURE the prospective HO this will be a VERY (did I say VERY) expensive and VERY service intensive gadget you are about to embark on... and after all that $$$ to install, tweak, tune, and maintain it... IMO you probably would have saved $$$ with elec baseboards; without all the hassle.

[ga-hvac-tech]

John, what do you base you price on, existing equipment price? I don't care what anyone says here, the only person I personally know of in Houston and "I know a ton of my competitors", that can sale a smaller tonnage A/C system in Houston is Al "classical". You come down here and do all your LC's and present it to the customer, and tell them we can reduce you a/c size from 5 ton to 3.5 ton. Yea right! 99% of the time, especially if they have been in Houston all their life, they will tell you to hit the road Jack. Everyone seems to be living in the dream world that think LC's are the silver bullet to the correct system, well I have news for you, you can chunk that LC, unless your doing duct work also for just one example, and most all duct work everywhere is incorrect. Man we sure have some dreamers here, I really wished they would come open up a business in Houston, they would sink like the Titanic the first year doing a LC on every job. :grin2: O once again for the record, I do condone the LC for all you that think I don't, my opinion is someone else should be doing them, not me, man the dreamers should seize the moment, start you LC and energy audit business, if your in Houston, I will give you all my business. :grin2:

Hey Bill,

Sounds like you are busier than a one-armed paper-hanger... GOOD for you! BTW: I will be at the Goodman dog and pony show next Mon-Wed (26-28)... And will be free Tuesday evening the 27th if you want to get dinner.

This is a public forum... I will send you a PM.

John

[beenthere]

I know I would NEVER install a system and guarantee it based on someone else's load calc... that is just spitting into the wind IMO.



Very common in commercial. An engineer does the load calc, duct design, and register specifications.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Very common in commercial. An engineer does the load calc, duct design, and register specifications.

Not singling you out Been... however that may be one of the reasons I do not like commercial. There is always the issue of who is responsible if it does not work? And we all know an incompetent engineer will just voluntarily step forward... NOT. Personally; I can avoid that mess BOTH for the homeowner and myself by not relying on non-verifiable numbers.

I think most residential folks will agree: We do not do work off someone else's load calc, and we do not guarantee from someone else's load calc.

[tipsrfine]

Good link to article that sums up much of what has been discussed here:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/saving-energy-manual-j-and-manual-d

I personally think there should be some regulation/inspection and enforcement of ensuring things are being done correctly. Before anyone starts with the old "Since when has government intervention solved anything" argument, all I ask you to consider is that too many studies, and more and more articles, are pointing to the fact that the majority of residential hvac installations are just being done wrong. I personally saw it during my time working for a few different hvac companies, and I see it now as an energy auditor working with hvac companies. The only way forward is acknowledging that something is broke, and that it needs fixing. No blame, just forward thinking. Some of the reasons responsible for the problem, I think is:

1. Too many hvac companies out there that are not doing things correctly because they have to compete against too many other companies out there that are also doing things incorrectly. (Self perpetuating).
2. Too easy to become a hvac contractor in too many places.
3. No real standards. No independant inspections of installations to prompt contractors to do things correctly.
4. Until somebody steps in to force everyone to play by the same rules, nobody can afford to be the first one to do so because they get out-bid by all the others still doing things the incorrect way.

More & more contractors are finding ways to be successful in doing things right, but it would be a lot quicker & easier if they got rid of the ones that say "Heck, I'm too busy running around doing things the wrong way to possibly start trying to do things the right way! I'd go out of business!"

[Mr Bill]

it would be a lot quicker & easier if they got rid of the ones that say "Heck, I'm too busy running around doing things the wrong way to possibly start trying to do things the right way! I'd go out of business!"

Who is they? would that be the same folks that created the:

'Free Enterprise System'
An economic system where few restrictions are placed on business activities and ownership. In this system, governments generally have minimal ownership of enterprises (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/free_enterprise.asp#) in the market place. This system aims for limited restrictions on trade and minimal government intervention.

Again, I have not seen one post here were anyone has commended the Load Calculation. Here is what I have read, small businesses don't have the money to send a $25.00 per hr. service tech out to do a LC, I will do one when the customer signs on the dotted line, I refuse to do a free LC. "AND" there is no Government "regulation" to perform one and there never will be under a "Free Enterprise System" so keep dreaming. What I do support as a small business, is a separation of the a/c company and the folks that do energy audits and LC's. For someone that is so gung ho about something, you would think they would support any ideas on getting this service performed, and quit being a baby and singling out folks because they don't as a small business have the resources in this terrible economy to do things that don't put $$$$ in the bank. There is nothing worse that someone trying to tell someone how they should operate their business, this is why most of us work for ourselves so "we can" operate as we wish, I guess next, someone will suggest we should wear our blue boxers on all calls. :)

[ga-hvac-tech]

Problem there Tips is...

The public is the marketplace. If they WANT high quality/high efficiency installs... they will pay for them. Judging from the folks I talk to (and counter talk at the supply houses: It appears a significant segment of the market cares only about price.

I DO agree that we need stricter licensing, as well as more CE classes.

[tipsrfine]

Who is they? would that be the same folks that created the:

'Free Enterprise System'
An economic system where few restrictions are placed on business activities and ownership. In this system, governments generally have minimal ownership of enterprises (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/free_enterprise.asp#) in the market place. This system aims for limited restrictions on trade and minimal government intervention.

My "no blame" philosophy goes hand in hand with my "no excuses" philosophy Mr. Bill. Everyone understands where you are comming from with your position on why you have been doing things the way you've been doing- you had to make a go of it as a business and you did as good as you could by your customers. You've stated yourself that someone trying to live up to all of the "correct" ways wouldn't last long in your neck of the woods. I believe that to be true, up to a point. I admit to pointing a finger at contractors such as yourself as being part of the overall problem, but I'm not saying you are in any way dishonest or uneducated in any way at all. I'm just saying you, and all of the contractors you have to compete against, are all caught up in a self-perpetuating cycle of having to compete against each other that guarantees that not only do homeowners get hvac systems that are oversized, connected to crappy duct systems, in a home that leaks air like a seive & under-insulated, but they mostly never even get told of what the correct ways are so they at least have the opportunity of making the choice. The only problem I have with your recent posts is that you seem to be making excuses & almost advocating leaving things the way they have been. My memories of your recent posts are that of mocking & belittling those who are attempting to set things right. I didn't name any names in my last post, but it shure enough flushed you out of the brush.

[Mr Bill]

It appears a significant segment of the market cares only about price.

John, it appears? :grin2: I think the writing is on the wall every time I pass a Wal-Mart. :grin2: :grin2: :grin2:

[ga-hvac-tech]

John, it appears? :grin2: I think the writing is on the wall every time I pass a Wal-Mart. :grin2: :grin2: :grin2:

Thankfully there is not a storefront 'wallyworld' of HVAC one can just walk into, pick a few big boxes onto their cart, and pay a fixed price for an install at the counter. Well, not yet anyway.

I have worked hard to develop a market of folks who care... it has paid off. It was not easy... but the referrals are coming in now from folks that appreciate what I can do, rather than how little it will cost.

Part of it is to simply NOT work for the folks who are only price conscious (or get all their tech data from an engineer and take bids). One has to decide what they are worth... and not sell themselves short.

[Mr Bill]

The only problem I have with your recent posts is that you seem to be making excuses & almost advocating leaving things the way they have been. My memories of your recent posts are that of mocking & belittling those who are attempting to set things right. I didn't name any names in my last post, but it shure enough flushed you out of the brush.

Would that be those same posts were I have said I do condone LC's, and those posts were I said I personally think there should be a separation of the energy audit business and LC's? Yes I can see were you feel I condemn LC's by those posts. :cool: Wow isn't it funny how some folks are so determined to prove a point, they can really read a lot more into someones posts. :grin2:

[Mr Bill]

Thankfully there is not a storefront 'wallyworld' of HVAC one can just walk into, pick a few big boxes onto their cart, and pay a fixed price for an install at the counter. Well, not yet anyway.


Well my point was, if this whole country was not focused on "price" Wally World would be out of business, do you see Wally going out of business soon? :grin2:

[Mr Bill]

You know there is a open market for a business willing to perform Load calculations and Energy Audits, this could be the next Microsoft of the business world. I can't figure out for the life of me, if there is so much of a demand for this, where are all the new businesses? Man, money just laying on the table, while folks argue over who should do it. :)

[ga-hvac-tech]

Well my point was, if this whole country was not focused on "price" Wally World would be out of business, do you see Wally going out of business soon? :grin2:

No, I think WallyWorld will be around for a while... Over here the $ stores are eating WalMart's lunch and dinner both. Price will always be a driver.

I told the guy at Costco he could either get rid of the Lennox display or I would go to Sams... he just ignored me and walked away. Guess I will be leaving Costco.

IMO it is not so much the 'cheap' as it is too much capacity and not enough market. Price competition gets fierce when there are too many sellers and not enough buyers.

OTOH: It is good for all of us to have stuff cheap... makes for a fatter retirement account... if we ever get to retire... :whistle:

[ga-hvac-tech]

You know there is a open market for a business willing to perform Load calculations and Energy Audits, this could be the next Microsoft of the business world. I can't figure out for the life of me, if there is so much of a demand for this, where are all the new businesses? Man, money just laying on the table, while folks argue over who should do it. :)

I wonder if the 'who should do it' is more 'how can the govt get their slice of the $$$ and power pies'...

I plan to take one or the other of the home energy audit classes (BPI or RESNET) and get the cert this fall. NO, I am not planning to do energy audits... rather have a working knowledge of the trade so I can use it in sales.

Was talking to a guy Tuesday... he was asking all kinds of questions. I had EVERY answer he wanted or needed... and I could tell he was a little surprised... I think he was trying to stump me (engineer type). I got the sale based on knowing my trade and being able to talk it clearly.

[tipsrfine]

I'm not saying you are against LC Mr. Bill, and this is not just about load calcs, it's about EVERYTHING regarding a homes ability to provide comfort and use energy wisely. My favorite analogy is a doctor hooking up an IV to a patient to provide blood to the patient, but doesn't bother to notice the huge gash in the patients neck.

[Mr Bill]

it's about EVERYTHING regarding a homes ability to provide comfort and use energy wisely.

Maybe we can do a little bonding here,:grin2: for the record I am also "for" anything we can do to provide comfort, and use our energy wisely. What I am not for, and I bet thousands of small a/c business owners would agree, is for things to be forced on us. Most of us don't have the resources to do everything to perform all the aspects of the home energy business and a/c installation and service business. Here is a perfect example, I go into a restaurant and ask for crab legs, and they say we don't have them, do I say this is a restaurant isn't it? See not every business carries or performs everything related to their business, it's a resource issue. If every small business was required to carry or perform everything related to their business, there would only be big business, then we would all pay out the rear for everything, follow me? this is why there is separation, and also separation develops more jobs.


Had to edit here: and they say we don't have them. :)

[behappy]

Very common in commercial. An engineer does the load calc, duct design, and register specifications.

This is true AND the engineer puts his stamp on the job.

If you install the job, per HIS specs, he owns it.
I have been involved with bad spec's that NO equipment can meet.
That is provable also.

I have never seen this is residential.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Maybe we can do a little bonding here,:grin2: for the record I am also "for" anything we can do to provide comfort, and use our energy wisely. What I am not for, and I bet thousands of small a/c business owners would agree, is for things to be forced on us. Most of us don't have the resources to do everything to perform all the aspects of the home energy business and a/c installation and service business. Here is a perfect example, I go into a restaurant and ask for crab legs, and they say we don't have them, do I say this is a restaurant isn't it? See not every business carries or performs everything related to their business, it's a resource issue. If every small business was required to carry or perform everything related to their business, there would only be big business, then we would all pay out the rear for everything, follow me? this is why there is separation, and also separation develops more jobs.


Had to edit here: and they say we don't have them. :)

Agree to a point: There are things I do not do... and things I do. I think each of us has to test our marketplace (which is not the same as the guy down the street's marketplace), to see what works for me.

I think it was this thread, but could be another: I plan to take a home energy audit class and get the cert this fall. NOT to do energy audits... rather to know and understand the issues. Helps my sales process.

[tipsrfine]

Maybe we can do a little bonding here,:grin2: for the record I am also "for" anything we can do to provide comfort, and use our energy wisely. What I am not for, and I bet thousands of small a/c business owners would agree, is for things to be forced on us. Most of us don't have the resources to do everything to perform all the aspects of the home energy business and a/c installation and service business. Here is a perfect example, I go into a restaurant and ask for crab legs, and they say we don't have them, do I say this is a restaurant isn't it? See not every business carries or performs everything related to their business, it's a resource issue. If every small business was required to carry or perform everything related to their business, there would only be big business, then we would all pay out the rear for everything, follow me? this is why there is separation, and also separation develops more jobs.


Had to edit here: and they say we don't have them. :)

I get it Mr. Bill. Big problems involved in integrating everything so that they work in harmony. Here is an example of not working in harmony. Homeowners' hvac system goes out in summer, hvac company comes out and replaces it, later in fall the homeowner has home evaluated for improvements to the envelope and it turns out there are huge air leaks, insulation issues, window issues etc..., homeowner has all of those issues resolved and now the system the hvac guy put in is way oversized and is experiencing humidity issues. Homeowner is told they need to downsize their a/c system.
I don't have a problem with separation, as long as it works in unison with all the other aspects of home improvement. How we accomplish this-I don't know. I think it is good we are talking about it here, 'cause it is being talked about all over the place. One thing I do know, is that things are broke, and even evidence from studies performed by the HVAC industry shows that things are broke. How we fix it-I don't know, but talking about the problem is a good first step.

[udarrell]

Problem there Tips is...

The public is the marketplace. If they WANT high quality/high efficiency installs... they will pay for them. Judging from the folks I talk to (and counter talk at the supply houses: It appears a significant segment of the market cares only about price.

I DO agree that we need stricter licensing, as well as more CE classes.
IMO, it doesn't have to cost them a lot more to achieve a system efficiency improvement.

Most equipment is way oversized with duct systems along with Return Air filter areas that are too small.

When you downsize the equipment it helps to improve the efficiency in many areas, including airflow.

Even those customer's that don't want to pay for a Home Audit there are simple math formula equations using their summer & winter design numbers for their area & the Mid-level of weatherization they have, to illustrate what they would be able to do to downsize with a good safety margin & thereby improve their energy efficiency situation.
Also, using SWING-Temp-spread room stats, etc.

Yes, a lot of them would be afraid to do it.
If they have their equipments' records of performance you can also extrapolate from that data, by also testing output & the efficiency of their present system to reveal its ballpark performance. There are easy ways to do that...

I can't see ever going back with the same oversized equipment on inadequate duct systems that doesn't perform, etc.

Use some of 'Doc' Falke's ideas - Steps to Redesign an Existing HVAC System (http://contractingbusiness.com/columnists/falke/hvac_system_redesign0321/?NL=CB-01&Issue=CB-01_20120321_CB-01_764&YM_RID=udarrell@chorus.net&YM_MID=1299776)

[classical]

John I would suggest NCI before BPI or RSENET and RESNET before BPI. I have been through all three.

Tips in a perfect world your way would be great but it just does not work that way believe me I know I have been butting my head against this wall for 15 years.

I address all issues when I go into a home and educate the homeowner and 9 times out of 10 I have it thrown right back in my face and BTW I am vey good at what I do including sales and education.

Most customers do not want to reinvent the wheel they simply want there home to be cool and to stay warm. They are for the most part unwilling to pay a premium price that we cannot guarantee they will recoup to have better comfort and lower utility bills.

The whole house concept is one I have pursued for years but it is very pricey and in most cases really financially feasible. What you also do not understand is what work in one climate does not work in another. In area where basements are common air sealing to reduce infiltration is very cost effective but in Southern climes like Houston where home are built slab on grade it is very expensive and very ineffective to seal an existing home.

Where up north a crew can work for a few hours and reduce infiltration by several thousand CFM down here we can work for days and only achieve a few hundred CFM or no reduction at all. Replacing windows in cold climes can make a huge impact on a homes load down here frequently little to no reduction.

Our biggest reduction come from attic insulation up to R-36 radiant barrier, attic ventilation and duct sealing.

Being zealous about your chosen passion is great but do not attack or demean those that do not embrace your fervor especially without the requisite knowledge to do so.

[Mr Bill]

Here is an example of not working in harmony. Homeowners' hvac system goes out in summer, hvac company comes out and replaces it, later in fall the homeowner has home evaluated for improvements to the envelope and it turns out there are huge air leaks, insulation issues, window issues etc..., homeowner has all of those issues resolved and now the system the hvac guy put in is way oversized and is experiencing humidity issues. Homeowner is told they need to downsize their a/c system.


This scenario could happen also if "only" a load calculation was performed, you do a LC and it comes back @3.5 tons, and now Mr. HO goes and does all the things you described, he is now over sized. See why there really is no answer? and as long as some of the smaller businesses don't have the resources, and better yet have no options of calling someone in to perform the Home Energy Audit and LC, were stuck were we are. I am being completely honest with you, in Houston in the summer time, some small a/c businesses run non stop sometimes, performing service, and lining out installations from equipment sold on service calls, I know we do sometimes.
I know all were talking about here is for a good cause, I understand that, but I am in the business to support myself and others and pay my bills. I can't continue to do this if me or my other tech is hung up performing a LC when we have folks dieing in the heat, they will pick up the phone and call another one of the 1000 a/c company's in Houston. So it's a toss up, do we spend our limited time stopping at every job we do or possibly don't sell, to put the service calls on hold? Service is what sells the product, if you have no service calls, you have no product to sell, then whats the point of even keeping the doors open? See this is deeper than just tossing out the idea all this Home Energy and LC stuff should be required. If you have any ideas on how a small business with limited resources can stop for a couple hrs during our summertime high call load, I am all ears. Funny thing is, I have never in 28 years had one complaint of someones a/c or heater not performing as good, if not better than their prior system, when we change it out, how does that happen? does it matter if the customer is happy? mine all have been, go figure.

[ga-hvac-tech]

John I would suggest NCI before BPI or RSENET and RESNET before BPI. I have been through all three.

Tips in a perfect world your way would be great but it just does not work that way believe me I know I have been butting my head against this wall for 15 years.

I address all issues when I go into a home and educate the homeowner and 9 times out of 10 I have it thrown right back in my face and BTW I am vey good at what I do including sales and education.

Most customers do not want to reinvent the wheel they simply want there home to be cool and to stay warm. They are for the most part unwilling to pay a premium price that we cannot guarantee they will recoup to have better comfort and lower utility bills.

The whole house concept is one I have pursued for years but it is very pricey and in most cases really financially feasible. What you also do not understand is what work in one climate does not work in another. In area where basements are common air sealing to reduce infiltration is very cost effective but in Southern climes like Houston where home are built slab on grade it is very expensive and very ineffective to seal an existing home.

Where up north a crew can work for a few hours and reduce infiltration by several thousand CFM down here we can work for days and only achieve a few hundred CFM or no reduction at all. Replacing windows in cold climes can make a huge impact on a homes load down here frequently little to no reduction.

Our biggest reduction come from attic insulation up to R-36 radiant barrier, attic ventilation and duct sealing.

Being zealous about your chosen passion is great but do not attack or demean those that do not embrace your fervor especially without the requisite knowledge to do so.

THX for the heads up Al; I hold the CO/CA cert from NCI, they are good folks. Will look into it in the late summer to schedule.

Over here in Atlanta; we are in similar shoes to Houston. Windows do not do much good unless the install includes serious reduction of infiltration. Attic insulation is the big bang for the buck, it is amazing how many homes are poorly insulated... even homes built as recently as the early 2000's. Then there is infiltration. One can simply hire a painter-dude to caulk up the exterior of the home... and realize a significant savings. Thankfully most homes over here do have basements; and as such can be base-plate sealed.

I wish foaming the underside of the roof deck was not as expensive as it is... that is one of the better solutions. However the foam guys know they have a great product and sell it as such.

I have subs that do all three things noted above: caulking, windows, blow attics (and once in a while foam the bottom of the roof deck). Customers have to be determined to stay in their homes for a L O N G time to get a payback. And comfort... well many folks just do not perceive it. To them it is just hot or cold... they do not even notice subtle differences.

In the marketplace; one has to understand what is in demand, and sell it to folks. If one has the greatest thing since sliced bread... yet nobody wants a sandwich... well you are not gonna sell much. Just the way markets work.

[Mr Bill]

John I would suggest NCI before BPI or RSENET and RESNET before BPI. I have been through all three.

Tips in a perfect world your way would be great but it just does not work that way believe me I know I have been butting my head against this wall for 15 years.

I address all issues when I go into a home and educate the homeowner and 9 times out of 10 I have it thrown right back in my face and BTW I am vey good at what I do including sales and education.

Most customers do not want to reinvent the wheel they simply want there home to be cool and to stay warm. They are for the most part unwilling to pay a premium price that we cannot guarantee they will recoup to have better comfort and lower utility bills.

The whole house concept is one I have pursued for years but it is very pricey and in most cases really financially feasible. What you also do not understand is what work in one climate does not work in another. In area where basements are common air sealing to reduce infiltration is very cost effective but in Southern climes like Houston where home are built slab on grade it is very expensive and very ineffective to seal an existing home.

Where up north a crew can work for a few hours and reduce infiltration by several thousand CFM down here we can work for days and only achieve a few hundred CFM or no reduction at all. Replacing windows in cold climes can make a huge impact on a homes load down here frequently little to no reduction.

Our biggest reduction come from attic insulation up to R-36 radiant barrier, attic ventilation and duct sealing.

Being zealous about your chosen passion is great but do not attack or demean those that do not embrace your fervor especially without the requisite knowledge to do so.

Can I get an Amen here? :grin2: :grin2: :grin2:

[ga-hvac-tech]

I get it Mr. Bill. Big problems involved in integrating everything so that they work in harmony. Here is an example of not working in harmony. Homeowners' hvac system goes out in summer, hvac company comes out and replaces it, later in fall the homeowner has home evaluated for improvements to the envelope and it turns out there are huge air leaks, insulation issues, window issues etc..., homeowner has all of those issues resolved and now the system the hvac guy put in is way oversized and is experiencing humidity issues. Homeowner is told they need to downsize their a/c system.
I don't have a problem with separation, as long as it works in unison with all the other aspects of home improvement. How we accomplish this-I don't know. I think it is good we are talking about it here, 'cause it is being talked about all over the place. One thing I do know, is that things are broke, and even evidence from studies performed by the HVAC industry shows that things are broke. How we fix it-I don't know, but talking about the problem is a good first step.


This scenario could happen also if "only" a load calculation was performed, you do a LC and it comes back @3.5 tons, and now Mr. HO goes and does all the things you described, he is now over sized. See why there really is no answer? and as long as some of the smaller businesses don't have the resources, and better yet have no options of calling someone in to perform the Home Energy Audit and LC, were stuck were we are. I am being completely honest with you, in Houston in the summer time, some small a/c businesses run non stop sometimes, performing service, and lining out installations from equipment sold on service calls, I know we do sometimes.
I know all were talking about here is for a good cause, I understand that, but I am in the business to support myself and others and pay my bills. I can't continue to do this if me or my other tech is hung up performing a LC when we have folks dieing in the heat, they will pick up the phone and call another one of the 1000 a/c company's in Houston. So it's a toss up, do we spend our limited time stopping at every job we do or possibly don't sell, to put the service calls on hold? Service is what sells the product, if you have no service calls, you have no product to sell, then whats the point of even keeping the doors open? See this is deeper than just tossing out the idea all this Home Energy and LC stuff should be required. If you have any ideas on how a small business with limited resources can stop for a couple hrs during our summertime high call load, I am all ears. Funny thing is, I have never in 28 years had one complaint of someones a/c or heater not performing as good, if not better than their prior system, when we change it out, how does that happen? does it matter if the customer is happy? mine all have been, go figure.

IMO both of you guys have valid points.

The reason I am going to get the home energy audit cert this fall is so I can address this stuff on a sales call. I have had limited luck already explaining this to folks and suggesting they get an energy audit. The ones that did; well we planned a system that would work with the repairs that were yet to be done... they bought it. Results after the envelope improvements were done, along with the new system, were/are impressive.

I know I will get flamed for this: One does not need a full LC to estimate some things about equipment size... however if one wants really good room to room air distribution... then one probably should do one.

Time to get some ZZZ's; I am in a home show the next 3 days... can you say leads and leads and leads.... <grin>

[Mr Bill]

IMO both of you guys have valid points.

The reason I am going to get the home energy audit cert this fall is so I can address this stuff on a sales call..

John, ANYTHING you can do to increase you knowledge of this business is a plus in my world. If I was paid for all my knowledge, and was able to totally utilize it on every call and get paid for it, I would now be on my own Island in the Pacific drinking a margarita, with a few Island girls. :grin2: :grin2: :grin2: As Al said, some folks don't care to reinvent the wheel, they just want to be cool in summer and warm in the winter, after all isn't it the customers money and ain't they the boss? Soon we a/c guys will seem like new car salesman to some folks, offering all the bells and whistles, when all they asked for was a plain Jane 4 door Chevy sedan. If there was an answer that fit everyone, everyone would be doing it, so there must not be an answer that everyone can live with.

[jeremyhall.tech.sc]

Personally, I would not even touch this job... because of the potential problems.




me , i will . cash . upfront. and first name only..... oh, wait thats what op's got . DANG! :whistle:

[SolarMike]

Back to the original post....:grin2:....due to the HO not wanting/needing cooling I would suggest a condensing boiler and a minimal amount of floor heating and an air handler for the second floor. He can then add cooling if desired in the future and an HRV if desired as well. This heat load is quite small and could be easily served with a minimal amount of ductwork..

[udarrell]

This scenario could happen also if "only" a load calculation was performed, you do a LC and it comes back @3.5 tons, and now Mr. HO goes and does all the things you described, he is now over sized. See why there really is no answer? and as long as some of the smaller businesses don't have the resources, and better yet have no options of calling someone in to perform the Home Energy Audit and LC, were stuck were we are. I am being completely honest with you, in Houston in the summer time, some small a/c businesses run non stop sometimes, performing service, and lining out installations from equipment sold on service calls, I know we do sometimes.
I know all we're talking about here is for a good cause, I understand that, but I am in the business to support myself and others and pay my bills. I can't continue to do this if me or my other tech is hung up performing a LC when we have folks dieing in the heat, they will pick up the phone and call another one of the 1000 a/c company's in Houston. So it's a toss up, do we spend our limited time stopping at every job we do or possibly don't sell, to put the service calls on hold? Service is what sells the product, if you have no service calls, you have no product to sell, then whats the point of even keeping the doors open?
See this is deeper than just tossing out the idea all this Home Energy and LC stuff should be required. If you have any ideas on how a small business with limited resources can stop for a couple hrs during our summertime high call load, I am all ears.
Funny thing is, I have never in 28 years had one complaint of someones a/c or heater not performing as good, if not better than their prior system, when we change it out, how does that happen? does it matter if the customer is happy? mine all have been, go figure.
I know some of you will condemn me for my position on this efficiency issue, but I'll state some of it anyway.

Our global economy will collapse if oil prices go to 150 to 200 dollars or more a barrel; this will happen if we don't act in every way possible to prevent it, we must act now...

Our 7 billion human beings face an imminent and certain economic crisis unless our global mass communication media begins now to focus on how we must act together immediately to avoid oil going, in the near future, from $150 to $200 dollars or more a barrel which will totally sink our global economies.

On those summer calls where there is no equipment replacement, a quick evaluation of there system will show you whether they need some efficiency work performed, I'd set them up for some reviewing during the off season, when you have time.

I'd also have ready made hand out literature explaining what may need to be done during slack times, along with maybe some well thought-up low-cost, slack-time radio spots.

We need to work with media to get our message out there with perhaps some interviews, etc.

This effort is no longer just about them saving on their utility bills, it's also about preventing the too soon collapse of our global state & national economies due to the excessive cost of all fossil based energy sources.

We need to do everything we can to provide more complete energy efficiency based service for our customers.

IMO, the government made a mistake outlawing 12-SEER A/Cs, because we could make them get 13-SEER & do other needed work to help them get better SEER numbers than the new 13 & 14-SEER units without any retrofit work. Also, would save in both heat & cool modes.

The rough math equations with safety margins, using the design numbers for the climate area you work, are a lot better than nothing...

I can walk into a home situation & simply visually point out a number of things that are leading to a lack of achieving Rated Btuh & efficiency numbers..., so can you!

[enb54]

We need to do everything we can to provide more complete energy efficiency based service for our customers.

In my case you are preaching to the choir, but most of the congregation aren't listening and right now don't care. I had a load calculation performed (by hand and scientific calculator) back in 1982 when building, and the results were pretty close to actuality, but the only ones who cared were the people who sold/installed the heating system, the local energy conserving society, and us the designers / homeowners. Even when I sold the place last year, the real estate people didn't care, I only lucked into a buyer from Europe who wanted that type of housing, and ONLY if I could prove it with 5 years' worth of energy bills (I did). The house we bought in Red Deer (superinsulated) had been on the market over a year and no bites before we came along.

Hence my earlier question about the heating load in California being only 4.33 BTU/hr per sq. ft. for a 32F difference in temp on the coldest day. Ours was appx 19 BTU/hr per sq. ft. for a 106F difference in temp but you know what? No one cared. Houses usually get sold by location and visible features here, so we put in some granite countertops and Grohe fixtures to enjoy before we get too old, maybe by then people will be looking at what's in the walls (I sortaaaah doubt it though).

The point I'm trying to make is that very few people will pay for energy efficiency until the crunch comes, same with LC, the home designer should include that with the design. After all, if the home is built to the exact design specs, then the heating and cooling (adjusted for location) should also be within spec.

I agree with Mr. Bill that this (load calculation) should be a separate service (licensed and insured) and if you install (licensed and insured) to the stated specs, and everyone did their job properly, there likely would be fewer difficulties and far less "finger pointing"...

All this disagreement just reinforces the OP's original doubts about the professionalism displayed by the contractors he originally sought out, but hopefully steers him now in the direction of better educated contractors. I know if I could afford that size of home, I would not want any mistakes on the basics.

Just another :.02:

[Mr Bill]

Darrell, my brother fought in the battle in Hue south Vietnam,I remember him coming home “thank God” saying, I would have been better off if they would have just dropped me out of a plane into that war zone, because there was nothing they taught us that prepared me for that battle. Darrell, “every call” is like a new battle for us we are not prepared to fight, you cannot stereotype people. Some don’t care, some don’t have the time in their busy day to listen, some think your just trying to sell them something they don’t need. I know we have a lot of arm chair QB’s here, but this sad state of our economy has folks on edge about doing anything but the minimal, and most give you the deer in the headlights look when you bring up, a total home energy audit, or even a LC. Darrell, I can appreciate and admire your desire to see this stuff done, but how many times must we be told were not interested, we would really just like to get our a/c going, can a person take before throwing in the towel? You see Darrell this become a mental thing then, not just a lazy thing as some would suggest. Darrell, I want to come out to your home today and show you a few things you can do to your new car, it will perform better and get better gas mileage and save our future. My guess is you have seen one of these commercials or read about this stuff in Car and Driver, and maybe these suggestions will work, but still your skeptical and you don’t have the time for this, your happy your car is just getting you around town, follow me? You know who I blame for this? “ALL” of us that set and blame each other and don’t do something about it, what better business to incorporate the load calculations into, than a complete home energy business? It would be an easier sale for that business, “and” most in that business are already geared for all the questions and time they will encounter. It still just boggles my mind, that the Home Energy Audit Business don’t just on this, it seems they just want to pass the buck, and at the same time talk about the a/c company’s that don’t have the time or resources to perform all this. If a person really believes in something, they will see it’s done, regardless of the roadblocks, I see a lot of talk and blame here but no action. Some act if though incorporating the LC into the Home Energy Audit Business, is like avoiding the plague. There is nothing written in stone and never has been on who is responsible for the LC, it was just dumped on the a/c company’s back before all this Home Energy business even started, so who is responsible? And who would be better fit to perform the LC? I say the company’s that are “totally” gear for it, and most a/c company’s don’t have the personal in their day to day operations to do this, excuse’s? what is the excuse of why the Home Energy Audit Co. can’t perform this? Personally I bet if you polled 100 customers, they would rather the Home Energy Audit Co. perform this, than Bubba’s A/C tech.

[Mr Bill]

I agree with Mr. Bill that this (load calculation) should be a separate service (licensed and insured) and if you install (licensed and insured) to the stated specs, and everyone did their job properly, there likely would be fewer difficulties and far less "finger pointing"...

What I see here is, most that want to set and promote the LC or finger point, don't seem to want to take the risk involved, maybe this is why. They seem to want to do everything that don't involve any liability or risks. Yea, lets do out Energy Audit and get paid and get the heck out of Dodge, and leave the risk and liability of the LC to the a/c company, that way there is no way we can be blamed. Most folks in this world in the past, that have a product or service they really believed in, or promoted, took the risks to move forward with it, they did not set and argue and wait until the Government got involved, or set forth who is responsible. Bill Gates bought the DOS program, he did not set and wait to find someone working on a operating system he could incorporate his program into, no, he moved forward with what he believed in.

[udarrell]

enb54: It is in the economic interest of media to get actively involved concerning the forth coming energy cost crisis, if they don't heed the warnings now, it will be too late & all economies will sink in the fossil fuel quick sand.

If public & coml media doesn't get actively involved the reality is that all fossil fuel dependent economies, which is nearly all of them, will likely crash sometime in the not too distant future.

A war against Iran could trigger +150 $ a BBL Oil prices, as crazy speculation kicks in, which would only take a matter of time for economies to crash & burn...

Real estate agents need to be educated on how to effectively use the big present & future advantages of owning an energy efficient home.

Yes, I watch HGTV channel where the HVAC system or high Home Energy Efficiency is never even mentioned by the agents & buyers never bring it up; the agent may only rarely even mention that the HVAC system is brand new.

It is all what the house appears to be on the surface, then "Holmes' On Homes" on HGTV comes in with his inspections & they realize they bought a worthless, costly total lemon... This needs to change...

I advise buyer's to ask for at least a year of the home's utility bills; & some get them. If they won't provide them, give that reason for not considering buying the house...

[enb54]

Yes, I watch HGTV channel where the HVAC system or high Home Energy Efficiency is never even mentioned by the agents & buyers never bring it up; the agent may only rarely even mention that the HVAC system is brand new.

It is all what the house appears to be on the surface, then "Holmes' On Homes" on HGTV comes in with his inspections & they realize they bought a worthless, costly total lemon... This needs to change...

I advise buyer's to ask for at least a year of the home's utility bills; & some get them. If they won't provide them, give that reason for not considering buying the house...

Of course we all know that we should be worried about energy efficiency, even the media and politicians. Unfortunately I'll bet the granite, undermount huge granite sink, and fancy German fixtures will do a better job of selling next time we move, UNLESS we get lucky and some European immigrant happens by...

Mr. Bill you are right about pursuing dreams and putting your money on the line... Perhaps I'll ask my insurance people what it would take for liability insurance for the energy audit business, the body is getting a bit tired of bush roads and 4 wheel drive suspensions... Of course, then I'll have to perhaps move my wardrobe up a notch or two or three...

[SolarMike]

we are all in deep s**t anyway. Udarrell, you have to remember that people are not planners, they are crisis managers. It always was and always will be. we simply don't have the collective wisdom to do what is right for the world when we are hard wired to do what we, at the time, think is best for "me" or my family. We will find any excuse to not do something when the problem is placed in front of us, be it religion, money or some other diversion.

That said, I still try to do as you do and get the most efficient system possible which is why I proposed the boiler system. The HO can even add solar thermal or PV if desired.

[udarrell]

we are all in deep s**t anyway. Udarrell, you have to remember that people are not planners, they are crisis managers. It always was and always will be. we simply don't have the collective wisdom to do what is right for the world when we are hard wired to do what we, at the time, think is best for "me" or my family. We will find any excuse to not do something when the problem is placed in front of us, be it religion, money or some other diversion.

That said, I still try to do as you do and get the most efficient system possible which is why I proposed the boiler system. The HO can even add solar thermal or PV if desired.
Yes, you guys are all right including Mr Bill; problem is I can't help fighting for a sustainable energy & economic future; though my fight so far is in vane...

The total media focus is on the Republican presidential horse race & not a question by the media or a word in all the endless debates about the horrible energy cost pitfalls that we need to take worldwide action on before it is too late; if it is not too late already... Nor do they have a clue as to what we need to do & right now...

MEDIA has analyzed that primary race a million times with no useful value for us to put to use...

I won't be around long, but I feel for all those that will have to suffer because there was never any real political or mass media focus on the real economic enemy that will overtake them because those who could have made the difference did not have sense enough to act.

All the communication flows toward us from politicians & media &, you can't get a message to them that they will notice or act on.

[Mr Bill]

we are all in deep s**t anyway. Udarrell, you have to remember that people are not planners, they are crisis managers. It always was and always will be. we simply don't have the collective wisdom to do what is right for the world when we are hard wired to do what we, at the time, think is best for "me" or my family. We will find any excuse to not do something when the problem is placed in front of us, be it religion, money or some other diversion.

That said, I still try to do as you do and get the most efficient system possible which is why I proposed the boiler system. The HO can even add solar thermal or PV if desired.

Yea the worst part here is, just because I am so outspoken about this here, it makes me look like the bad guy. Well someone has to speak for folks that just just want to avoid the issue, or just don't want to let anyone here know they have the same opinion as me. I was raised to confront, not avoid, it's in my blood, so see I just can't help it. :grin2:

[tipsrfine]

I give up. The last local program that was advocating energy audits have quit doing so. It is just as well, because nothing was getting changed. The last audit I did was for a hvac contractor who needed the audit to qualify his customer for a loan. Existing unit 2 ton, 8 supply vents, one homeowner living there who has the 2 vents in the basement closed because he never goes down there anymore. That leaves 6 supply vents fed by 6" ducts. They will be putting in a 2 and 1/2 ton system 'cause homeowner stated old system seemed to be struggling. Lousy envelope and nearly no insulation in attic. A loose friend of mine called me about her new system icing up. Went out there and they installed a 2 & 1/2 ton system in her house; she has 4 vents upstairs and all the vents in the basement are disconnected & sealed off 'cause she doesn't use her basement. I got into this energy auditing & the "whole house" idea thinking it was a good sollution to something that was broken. It may get fixed, but it's not going to be through any kind of energy auditing revolution; that's for sure.
Sorry to those I pissed off. You won't be getting any more gruff out of me.

[SolarMike]

Check out the movie "Idiocracy". I think I can see a connection.

[Mr Bill]

Sorry to those I pissed off. You won't be getting any more gruff out of me.

Hey, I am not upset with you at all, most folks here that know me personally, know I don't roll that way. What I saw was, we were just on opposite sides of the fence, and we were doing our best to meet each other at the gate, which I think we got real close. Passions is what created most of the inventions or ideas in this world, with this issue there is just way to many folks on both sides of the fence, and both with good reasons. We all can only do so much in a days work, and we have to put our highest priorities first, if we plan on surviving. In our business, unlike the oil company's, our customers have the upper hand, they are the boss, they pay our bill's, so we are at their mercy, we can suggest, but we can't force. Bottom line from what I have witnessed, money is the biggest obstacle that keeps the a/c and heating and energy audit business and our customers decades apart, it's takes money to get the message out, no money, no message, it's that simple.

[tipsrfine]

Hey, I am not upset with you at all, most folks here that know me personally, know I don't roll that way. What I saw was, we were just on opposite sides of the fence, and we were doing our best to meet each other at the gate, which I think we got real close. Passions is what created most of the inventions or ideas in this world, with this issue there is just way to many folks on both sides of the fence, and both with good reasons. We all can only do so much in a days work, and we have to put our highest priorities first, if we plan on surviving. In our business, unlike the oil company's, our customers have the upper hand, they are the boss, they pay our bill's, so we are at their mercy, we can suggest, but we can't force. Bottom line from what I have witnessed, money is the biggest obstacle that keeps the a/c and heating and energy audit business and our customers decades apart, it's takes money to get the message out, no money, no message, it's that simple.

It's the people that put 2 & 1/2 ton systems in a house with 4 6" supply registers that really teed me off. I've seen so much of that kind of slop, and I don't think that can be honestly put on the customers.

[R Mannino]

It's the people that put 2 & 1/2 ton systems in a house with 4 6" supply registers that really teed me off. I've seen so much of that kind of slop, and I don't think that can be honestly put on the customers.

I concur, same as the 148,000BTU boiler in a 50,000 BTU house.
Houses aren't viewed as a "system" by most people.



I really think Udarrell nailed it

& not a question by the media or a word in all the endless debates about the horrible energy cost pitfalls that we need to take worldwide action on before it is too late; if it is not too late already... Nor do they have a clue as to what we need to do & right now...


it's not really an energy crisis, it's a financial crisis.


I do however share Mr. Bill's view on business, I have to make a living as much as the next guy AND college tuition isn't cheap.

A man's got to know his limitations- Dirty Harry

[classical]

It's the people that put 2 & 1/2 ton systems in a house with 4 6" supply registers that really teed me off. I've seen so much of that kind of slop, and I don't think that can be honestly put on the customers.

No you are just young and relatively inexperienced and we were all there at one time in our life.

You are wrong however not to put at least some of the blame on the homeowners. They are the ones that do not educate themselves sufficiently or do not value the knowledge that is imparted to them by well meaning enlightened technicians. A great deal of the blame does belong to uneducated uncaring technicians and contractors and worse the ones that employee salesmen that use Load calcs and audits as dog and pony show sales gimmicks.

[tipsrfine]

No you are just young and relatively inexperienced and we were all there at one time in our life.

You are wrong however not to put at least some of the blame on the homeowners. They are the ones that do not educate themselves sufficiently or do not value the knowledge that is imparted to them by well meaning enlightened technicians. A great deal of the blame does belong to uneducated uncaring technicians and contractors and worse the ones that employee salesmen that use Load calcs and audits as dog and pony show sales gimmicks.

I'm 50 years old, and I don't feel young. I see it as a self perpetuating cycle between the homeowners & the contractors; it's not as old as "Which came first, the chicken or the egg", but it's getting there. Appreciate your advice & comments.

[tipsrfine]

Good advice GA.

[CraziFuzzy]

Business practices aside, and back on topic, this home deserves a lot more than a small simple furnace. Tight construction, 3 story, many residents living in very different zones, one of them being senior, - there will be no comfort without an extensive zoning system. At least there is a good sized mechanical room in the basement.

Here's my recommendation:
Combined Heating/Domestic Hot water system in the mech room feeding baseboard heat throughout. 24-hour outside air ventilation from 'dirty' areas (bathrooms, kitchen, gym/sauna, mech room). Common areas to contain concealed mini-split fancoils for the inevitable, yet minor, cooling demand (1 per floor). This will be controlled by simple single stage heat-only stats in each zone, with heat/cool stats in the common areas.

[confusedHVAC]

It appears that residential HVAC is mostly a black art (i.e.: a process that is mysterious and difficult to master or describe.)

> Pretty much everyone seems to agree that a 60,000 btu whole house heat loss (bumped up, at my request, to a single 100,000 btu variable speed propane fired furnace) is ridiculously low, despite a Manual J, S and D design from an outfit that is experienced and credible.

> Some of you suggest that the contractor and designer should be the same firm. I like that idea, too, but how does that solve my problem- I can't find a contractor that designs systems based on science. They design them based on rules of thumb and experience (and, by the way, they have many satisfied clients). And of the designers that I've engaged with, one did the Manual J, S and D that I posted and the other had never heard of Manual J (a California licensed PE, by the way).

> Some of you suggest that this house needs a/c. I've attached a document that summarizes the temperature data from 1961 from the closest station to us (on the Pacific Coast, about 20 miles due North). We didn't think we needed a/c, based on this data (which mirrors our experience at the site). Are we reading this wrong- does anyone still think we need a/c?

> Regarding zoning, we had planned on the system mentioned by GA-HVAC-TECH. It's called My Temp, by Home Comfort Zones (Removed link ). It is essentially a room-by-room zoning system. HOWEVER, this zoning system does not eliminate the need to properly size a whole house heat source and distribution system.

So I ask again- "Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't just go with the bigger system (250,000- 300,000 btu) and play it safe? The additional cost is peanuts compared to the size of the project, we don't have any LEEDS, Energy Star, or regulatory compliance requirements, and the hassle that this is causing doesn't seem to be worth the effort to try and do it the 'technically correct' way."

[beenthere]

Look for member "Paul42". He has a 4200 sq ft house, with a 2 ton A/C. he lives in Texas. So a 60,000 BTU furnace may be the right choice for your house.

[SolarMike]

It appears that residential HVAC is mostly a black art (i.e.: a process that is mysterious and difficult to master or describe.)

> Pretty much everyone seems to agree that a 60,000 btu whole house heat loss (bumped up, at my request, to a single 100,000 btu variable speed propane fired furnace) is ridiculously low, despite a Manual J, S and D design from an outfit that is experienced and credible.

> Some of you suggest that the contractor and designer should be the same firm. I like that idea, too, but how does that solve my problem- I can't find a contractor that designs systems based on science. They design them based on rules of thumb and experience (and, by the way, they have many satisfied clients). And of the designers that I've engaged with, one did the Manual J, S and D that I posted and the other had never heard of Manual J (a California licensed PE, by the way).

> Some of you suggest that this house needs a/c. I've attached a document that summarizes the temperature data from 1961 from the closest station to us (on the Pacific Coast, about 20 miles due North). We didn't think we needed a/c, based on this data (which mirrors our experience at the site). Are we reading this wrong- does anyone still think we need a/c?

> Regarding zoning, we had planned on the system mentioned by GA-HVAC-TECH. It's called My Temp, by Home Comfort Zones ( http://www.homecomfortzones.com/index.php ). It is essentially a room-by-room zoning system. HOWEVER, this zoning system does not eliminate the need to properly size a whole house heat source and distribution system.

So I ask again- "Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't just go with the bigger system (250,000- 300,000 btu) and play it safe? The additional cost is peanuts compared to the size of the project, we don't have any LEEDS, Energy Star, or regulatory compliance requirements, and the hassle that this is causing doesn't seem to be worth the effort to try and do it the 'technically correct' way."

You have had a few options (including my own with the boiler, radiant floor and fancoil) so there should be lots of options available to you.

Even in Toronto, where the design temp is -6f..... 300,000btu would do a 10-12,000ft2 house. It is a complete waste of your time and money to install something like that. It would have to be done with 2-3 furnaces anyway.

[CraziFuzzy]

The reason I suggest cooling, is that a home this big is likely to not only hold the few residents. Tight homes are especially prone to 'party heat', where you have a get together at the house, and everyone ends up sweating. As you mentioned, the system would be a mere fraction of the home cost, so why NOT be prepared for it?

As for oversizing the heating, this is partly why I (and a few others in this thread) recommended hydronic. No-one ever worries about oversizing their water heater, because having too much hot water is never a problem. Hydronic also eliminates the potential for air balance and distribution problems in a home this large.

Speaking of air balance, what does the home have for forced ventilation (meaning outside air refresh/exhaust)?

[ga-hvac-tech]

It appears that residential HVAC is mostly a black art (i.e.: a process that is mysterious and difficult to master or describe.)

> Pretty much everyone seems to agree that a 60,000 btu whole house heat loss (bumped up, at my request, to a single 100,000 btu variable speed propane fired furnace) is ridiculously low, despite a Manual J, S and D design from an outfit that is experienced and credible.

> Some of you suggest that the contractor and designer should be the same firm. I like that idea, too, but how does that solve my problem- I can't find a contractor that designs systems based on science. They design them based on rules of thumb and experience (and, by the way, they have many satisfied clients). And of the designers that I've engaged with, one did the Manual J, S and D that I posted and the other had never heard of Manual J (a California licensed PE, by the way).

> Some of you suggest that this house needs a/c. I've attached a document that summarizes the temperature data from 1961 from the closest station to us (on the Pacific Coast, about 20 miles due North). We didn't think we needed a/c, based on this data (which mirrors our experience at the site). Are we reading this wrong- does anyone still think we need a/c?

> Regarding zoning, we had planned on the system mentioned by GA-HVAC-TECH. It's called My Temp, by Home Comfort Zones ( http://www.homecomfortzones.com/index.php ). It is essentially a room-by-room zoning system. HOWEVER, this zoning system does not eliminate the need to properly size a whole house heat source and distribution system.

So I ask again- "Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't just go with the bigger system (250,000- 300,000 btu) and play it safe? The additional cost is peanuts compared to the size of the project, we don't have any LEEDS, Energy Star, or regulatory compliance requirements, and the hassle that this is causing doesn't seem to be worth the effort to try and do it the 'technically correct' way."

Please do not take this personally, it is not meant that way; however:

Science and what works are sometimes two different things. I realize that sounds like a contradictory statement... however when lots of contractors say the same thing... one should listen to them.

The issue is the size of the home and the ductwork required to distribute the air... just not a fit which will work.

And if it were me, I would take the post above which explains 'party heat' seriously. I would HATE to be the host of a 50 or 75 person party... and everyone is hot and sweaty because the $M+ house does not have AC...

What would YOU do if you attended that party at your friend's home? Yeah, we all know what we would think and what we would do... <grin>

The world is not going to come to an end if you install 3 or 4 systems in that house which are low capacity and run a small amount.

Good luck with your project.

[arc8]

So I ask again- "Can anyone tell me why I shouldn't just go with the bigger system (250,000- 300,000 btu) and play it safe? The additional cost is peanuts compared to the size of the project, we don't have any LEEDS, Energy Star, or regulatory compliance requirements, and the hassle that this is causing doesn't seem to be worth the effort to try and do it the 'technically correct' way."

You can, but you won't need all of it!
I've noticed your Heat load calc and the CFM requirements that was done; I say you need the right amount of airflow capacity from appropriate equipment/s and yet not oversizing the equipment.
I think natural gas is more economical than electric according to what I hear from util companies there.
Your system/s can either be simplistic or complicated depending your requirements by you or city/state codes. Have you looked into possible codes that are required like fresh-air! This alone can mean an end to the type of system you might have to need or require!

Your region is unlike my region. I know how to design and what type of system to recommend for cases like yours (your house size) if you were in my area. But I'm very limited to helping in designing a system like yours when you have a much milder weather than where I'm from.

I say again, keep looking/searching. I remember hearing and reading about some good HVAC companies in the Sacramento area, i think!

[btuhack]

> Some of you suggest that this house needs a/c. I've attached a document that summarizes the temperature data from 1961 from the closest station to us (on the Pacific Coast, about 20 miles due North). We didn't think we needed a/c, based on this data (which mirrors our experience at the site). Are we reading this wrong- does anyone still think we need a/c?

ask your PE about micro climates.

Unless you're building near the airport( your report's weather data) which I doubt, your data will be more like Morgan hill or Alamaden~90.

Plus, some day the house will go on the market, unlikely any qualified buyer for a large home will have tract home expectations.

[jpsmith1cm]

Cool Air


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[artdavila]

There is nothing written in stone and never has been on who is responsible for the LC, it was just dumped on the a/c company’s back before all this Home Energy business even started, so who is responsible?

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but as a licensed contractor in Texas, state law states the YOU as the license holder CANNOT sub contract the design of the system to another company who does not hold that license.
So, how many energy auditors are licensed HVAC contractors?

[catmanacman]

The real reason many units get oversized is because there is more profit in a bigger box.