payne heat pump help please

[elamechanical]

Went to start up a payne 13 seer, 410a heat pump in the heating mode today and my high side gauge was pulling down to a vacuum, while the compressor began to hiss and sound like it had marbles in it. The suction line was getting warm and the gauge showing it above 250psi into retard. This seemed normal to me, but the high side pulling down and the noises the compressor was making didn't. I ran it briefly in cooling mode and had a 150psi high side and 75psi low side, which seemed low. However, its a colder day in new england, that's why I'm cincerned with the heating end. Maybe a bad txv valve? Any insight is greatly appreciated thx.

[chuckcrj]

Please describe in detail where the hose connects from the gauge that is showing a vacuum. Pics would be nice too.

I doubt the high side is pulling into a vacuum...

[elamechanical]

I apologize, Let me correct myself. The high side wasn't pulling into a vacuum. It was rapidly pulling down though. Once it reached around 50 psi, the hissing began along with the marbles in the compressor sound. High side being on the liguid valve service port. That's when I quickly killed the disconnect. Its frustrating because I went there for a new startup, and found that a carpenter put a finish nail through one of my refrigeration lines. Finally located it, opened the wall and made the repair, now this issue. All when it should have been a simple flip switches and wtch her run on a Saturday. Thx again

[chuckcrj]

Double check and make sure the indoor metering device is a piston, or a heat pump txv. Sounds like the indoor metering device is restricted.

You have a restriction at the indoor metering device or in the liquid line between your service valve and indoor metering device.

[chuckcrj]

Also make sure the liquid line isn't kinked in the wall somewhere.

[elamechanical]

Chuck, appreciate the input. I was thinking along those lines. Do you need to change out the txv in an airhandler to a specific heat pump txv. Wasn't sure. I am sure that hasn't been done, if need be though. Thx again

[chuckcrj]

Yes, the txv in the air handler needs to be specifically for heat pumps.

Was the a/h and coil new?

[mgenius33]

Does this unit have a piston in the liquid line service port, at the od unit? I don't work on many Payne units, but I remember they used to put the od piston in the liquid service valve.

[elamechanical]

The ah and condenser are brand new. Not sureabout liquid valve having a piston. Its abrand new install. Ill have to check in with carrier Monday to see if ah has a heat pump txv valve installed from factory. I do know that if they don't , that's my problem because the factory one is still installed. Again appreciate the help gentlemen. Heat pump experience is limited.

[Williamsma]

The ah and condenser are brand new. Not sureabout liquid valve having a piston. Its abrand new install. Ill have to check in with carrier Monday to see if ah has a heat pump txv valve installed from factory. I do know that if they don't , that's my problem because the factory one is still installed. Again appreciate the help gentlemen. Heat pump experience is limited.

I could be wrong, but if I recall if you have a flare connection on the liquid line at the outdoor unit there is a piston in the liquid line valve, and if thats the case the liquid line valve port in heat is the low side not the high side. So to properly check your pressures you have to high side gauge hooked up to the large line at the outdoor unit. Your low side to the port above the service valves.

[elamechanical]

Right on, there is a flare connection on the liquid line service valve. This is where I had my high side gauge hooked up, where I was reading it drop down to 50 psi. Ill try pumping the refrigerant down, so I can see if the piston is blocked. Is that piston accessible right there after backing off that flare? Thx

[Ron223]

Where exactly are you connecting your gauges? On the 3/8, 3/4 service valves or the true suction/discharge ports?

[elamechanical]

My high side gauge was on the 3/8 line. Low was on the 3/4. I was getting a reading +250 into the retard range on the 3/4. On the 3/8 it was immediately pulling down, around 50 psi I would kill the disconnect because of the noises from the compressor. Sorry about the confusion. Get so used to calling the 3/8 the liquid, and 3/4 the suction, that I continue to when working with heat pumps.

[Ron223]

My high side gauge was on the 3/8 line. Low was on the 3/4. I was getting a reading +250 into the retard range on the 3/4. On the 3/8 it was immediately pulling down, around 50 psi I would kill the disconnect because of the noises from the compressor. Sorry about the confusion. Get so used to calling the 3/8 the liquid, and 3/4 the suction, that I continue to when working with heat pumps.

I'm not familiar with this exact unit, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Hooked up as you said the only thing you are measuring is the psi entering and exiting the indoor metering device and indoor coil? Does the return liquid (3/8") line pressure rise on start up and then drop off to 50 psi? Or is it just low through the whole process? What about superheat/subcooling? And what type of indoor metering device do you have?

[elamechanical]

You are correct in saying the only thing I am measuring is the indoor coil. The indoor metering device is a txv valve. I'm not sure, to be honest, if it a heatpump txv valve. It wouldn't need to be if there is a piston in the 3/8 service valve, would it? It does rise upon startup, then begins to drop. Doesn't give me time to make any suberheat/subcooling measurements. I do know its a short pipe run, so the charge must be close. What do you think about the rise on startup, followed by quick dropoff? Thx

[Ron223]

You are correct in saying the only thing I am measuring is the indoor coil. The indoor metering device is a txv valve. I'm not sure, to be honest, if it a heatpump txv valve. It wouldn't need to be if there is a piston in the 3/8 service valve, would it? It does rise upon startup, then begins to drop. Doesn't give me time to make any suberheat/subcooling measurements. I do know its a short pipe run, so the charge must be close. What do you think about the rise on startup, followed by quick dropoff? Thx

Unless there is a by-pass going around it with a check valve then the indoor TXV must be an internally checked valve. Otherwise that's a good place to start. Does it run okay in cooling? If it doesn't have a by-pass or internally checked it will cause a restriction in heating mode likely producing the effects you've mentioned. Is this a "matching" indoor/outdoor units?

As for this piston inside the 3/8 service valve. Let me start by saying I've never seen this and don't truly know. However, a HP needs two metering devices. One for each cycle (using outdoor for heating, indoor for cooling) and must be able to by-pass the other in its respective cycles.

[Ron223]

"However, a HP needs two metering devices. One for each cycle (using outdoor for heating, indoor for cooling) and must be able to by-pass the other in its respective cycles."

To clarify, if the metering device is a piston it does not need a separate by-pass, nor does an internally checked TXV. But a standard TXV will need a by-pass for the reverse cycle. Otherwise it will create a restriction.

[elamechanical]

I do know that both units are manufactured by payne and are 1.5tons. So I guess they are matched properly. Also, any metering devices that come factory are still present. It kills me to have to wait til Monday to chase down their tech support for answers. I can't find any service or tech lieterature on paynes website, just consumer brochures. Sux. I appreciate your time, and the direction I've been given. Love this site for that

[Ron223]

I do know that both units are manufactured by payne and are 1.5tons. So I guess they are matched properly. Also, any metering devices that come factory are still present. It kills me to have to wait til Monday to chase down their tech support for answers. I can't find any service or tech lieterature on paynes website, just consumer brochures. Sux. I appreciate your time, and the direction I've been given. Love this site for that

My suspicion is either you are dealing with the wrong or faulty indoor metering device. Let us know what you find if you wouldn't mind.

[elamechanical]

Thx for clarifying, I had to reread the first reply a couple of times. So it looks like I have to definetly check into that indoor txv.

[elamechanical]

Definitely will follow up after to talking to carrier Monday. Sounds like I must have the wrong one. Or faulty. Id like to see it be the wrong one, instead of a new faulty one. Thx again

[Trehak01]

sounds like you had your gauges hooked up wrong to read heat mode charge. the way you just describe attaching the hi side hose to the liquid line and the low side hose to the suction line would have been correct to read the cooling mode charge. when checking the heat mode you need to attach your hi side hose to the suction line and attach you low side hose to your common suction line. on payne the common suction line there typically located between the two valves ports or on the common suction line on the reversing valve.

[Ron223]

sounds link you had your gauges hooked up wrong to read heat mode charge. the way you just describe attaching the hi side hose to the liquid line and the low side hose to the suction line would have been correct to read the cooling mode charge. when checking the heat mode you need to attach your hi side hose to the suction line and attach you low side hose to your common suction line. on payne there typically located between the two valves ports

True indeed but he still should not have that much of a pressure drop entering/exiting the indoor unit.

[elamechanical]

I know, I didn't have the gauges hooked up properly. I just finished pressure testing and evacuating the system with them hooked up this way, and left them when I started the system. My concern was how the pressure on the 3/8 line began to drop upon startup, from when the pressures were equalized when the unit was off. 3/4 line didn't, all the input is helping lead to the suspicion of an incorrect txv valve.

[Trehak01]

ohhhh i guess i didnt understand what you were trying to say.. sorry

note to self dont try and answer questions after a few beers.. you may not understand or read the whole question...

[elamechanical]

No, no, its all good. I appreciate the interest, and the help. Thx.

[elamechanical]

Here's where I'm at. Returned today, with a little more time to diagnose but again came up empty. So more suggestions or help is appreciated. replaced the expansion valve, replaced filter drier, and removed outdoor metering device(piston)which I can physically blow through both directions. Started system in heating again, and both gauges began to pull down, to below 50 psi. Had one gauge on the true suctioc port, and the other on the 3/8 return line in heating mode. Spoke with carrier tech and he agreed before repair that it may be something in the line of what I repaired. However it continues. In the cooling mode I have good pressures. Low 125 and high 300. Good superheat 12. Good indoor temp diff. Asked carrie, again prior to those repairs, if he thought there may be a piping kink. He made good point that cooling wouldn't work too then. Lastly after repairs and starting system in heating mode it lookes like 3/8 service valve began to ice up on condenser side. Is it possible metering device is still restricted even though I can phsically blow through both directions. Its a size 40. Put another call into carrier to see if its the correct size. I can't imagine it isn't. Desperate. Had to leave disgusted. Brand new equipment. Your lucky to speak with their tech once a day.

[Ron223]

Here's where I'm at. Returned today, with a little more time to diagnose but again came up empty. So more suggestions or help is appreciated. replaced the expansion valve, replaced filter drier, and removed outdoor metering device(piston)which I can physically blow through both directions. Started system in heating again, and both gauges began to pull down, to below 50 psi. Had one gauge on the true suctioc port, and the other on the 3/8 return line in heating mode. Spoke with carrier tech and he agreed before repair that it may be something in the line of what I repaired. However it continues. In the cooling mode I have good pressures. Low 125 and high 300. Good superheat 12. Good indoor temp diff. Asked carrie, again prior to those repairs, if he thought there may be a piping kink. He made good point that cooling wouldn't work too then. Lastly after repairs and starting system in heating mode it lookes like 3/8 service valve began to ice up on condenser side. Is it possible metering device is still restricted even though I can phsically blow through both directions. Its a size 40. Put another call into carrier to see if its the correct size. I can't imagine it isn't. Desperate. Had to leave disgusted. Brand new equipment. Your lucky to speak with their tech once a day.

The indoor metering device is a TXV correct? If so what was your subcooling in cooling mode? Just wondering if the charge is right... Did the compressor start making noises again also? And did carrier say if the indoor txv is internally checked?

[Williamsma]

Your high side gauge should be hooked up to the large line at the outdoor unit. The 3/8 line due to the piston at the out door unit becomes the low side in heat. The port you hook up to on the 3/8 line is after the piston, where it starts to evaporate the refrigerant.

[suBcools]

Your high side gauge should be hooked up to the large line at the outdoor unit. The 3/8 line due to the piston at the out door unit becomes the low side in heat. The port you hook up to on the 3/8 line is after the piston, where it starts to evaporate the refrigerant.

Not sure if the 3/8 LL service port would read after the piston. I'd still think it's reading pressure before the piston. If that's the case, then he's still dealing with a restriction somewhere between his indoor metering device and outdoor metering device. I had this exact issue on a york about a month ago, and the internal check on the indoor TXV had failed, causing his exact symptoms. My discharge pressure would climb, liquid pressure dropped. Refrigerant was not getting out of the indoor coil due to the plugged TXV. Replaced indoor TXV and all was back to normal.

I believe that on those Carrier/Bryant/Payne units, there is a screen installed on the 3/8 LL line just before the piston. I would check and see if that screen is plugged up at all. Where did you put the drier? It's a bi-flow drier, correct?

[Ron223]

Your high side gauge should be hooked up to the large line at the outdoor unit. The 3/8 line due to the piston at the out door unit becomes the low side in heat. The port you hook up to on the 3/8 line is after the piston, where it starts to evaporate the refrigerant.

Good catch! I completely missed that! Yes, this is absolutely right! I have once, after changing a compressor on an infinity unit and weighing in the charge, and confirming the pressures with the provided charging chart, seen a 150 pound difference between entering/exiting the indoor unit. The pressures were within 5 psi of the manufacturers chart though. Nobody has ever been able to explain this pressure drop but it is still worked fine.

[elamechanical]

I'm sorry, I did take subcooling reading, not superheat. And that was 12. Carrier did say that both their carrier and payne ahu come with txvs meant for heat pumps. so I know its the proper one. The compressor did make noise again around 50 psi. So I believ my charge is correct. Again my readings on the true suction port and 3/8 valve, which I understand is after metering device, are both pulling down. If I threw my gauge on the 3/4 line like I originally did id have aroui. Is it possible to have my restriction at the metering device, even though I can physically blow thru in both directions? Baffled.I would've sworn it was the indoor txv, or filter drier. But the problem still remains. Also where can I have a restriction that still aloows cooling mode to work properly?

[elamechanical]

I was thinking gauge port was reading after piston, because piston is installed before flare union. Wasn't. Positve though. Either way it seemed problem was at one of the metering devices. I believed txv too, but replaced and it still exist. Was your reading on the true suction port also dropping in your scenario?

[Ron223]

I was thinking gauge port was reading after piston, because piston is installed before flare union. Wasn't. Positve though. Either way it seemed problem was at one of the metering devices. I believed txv too, but replaced and it still exist. Was your reading on the true suction port also dropping in your scenario?

It did drop as the system started from an equalized state to operating conditions. Then reading low side at true suction and discharge at 3/4 service valve everything was great once stabilized. Although I had 150 psi drop entering/exiting AH, read between 3/4 and 3/8 line. As the other tech said, your highside gauge should be on the 3/4 (discharge) service valve reading actual running pressures.

[elamechanical]

I would love to live with this pressure drop being normal in my case, however the noise the compressor makes and then it trips out, I guess on internal overload. I haven't checked screen though to be honest. I disconnected flare union to check piston and didn't notice it. You'd think if it was plugged in one mode, then it would be in the other. Coolings fine though. I'm lost. If the drop is common to both true suction port, and 3/8 could it be due to reversing valve. Normally I can think within system, but my mind is so numb not now. However, reversing valve turns fine. May have to add a gauge port, indoors on 3/8 to see if drop is before 3/8 piping. All I can think of

[elamechanical]

I did have high side gauge on 3/4 line and low gauge on 3/8. Same deal, with it going from equalized pressure to large pressure drop across coil, 240 on 3/4 line agin dropping down to 50 psi on 3/8 before killing disconnect. I guess its possible to have two bad txv valves, but it seems like I'm stretching. I threw low gauge on true suction port to see if that also, wasrapidly pulling down, and it was.

[Ron223]

I would love to live with this pressure drop being normal in my case, however the noise the compressor makes and then it trips out, I guess on internal overload. I haven't checked screen though to be honest. I disconnected flare union to check piston and didn't notice it. You'd think if it was plugged in one mode, then it would be in the other. Coolings fine though. I'm lost. If the drop is common to both true suction port, and 3/8 could it be due to reversing valve. Normally I can think within system, but my mind is so numb not now. However, reversing valve turns fine. May have to add a gauge port, indoors on 3/8 to see if drop is before 3/8 piping. All I can think of

Backing up, you said the outdoor metering device is before the service port? And after the piston location the valve was freezing? That would seem to indicate a pressure drop at that location... Ill admit at the moment I'm scratching my head as well. Tomorrow ill be seeing an older tech who loves HP's and run this all by him also. Do you think it may have been tripping out on low pressure/thermal? If its restricting there it wouldn't be able to get that suction pressure up. did you check the discharge (3/4 line) pressure in heating?

[elamechanical]

I did check 3/4 line in heating and pressure stayed steady at 240 psi. Also, that's why I'm puzzled too. I would say that restriction is at that port too,, according to my findings. Again, I coudl blow through piston both directions. Maybe its still possible to be restricted there? Idk. Maybe its a screen there. Why would it work in cooling. Maybe its shutting down on low pressure. Its not my charge for sure because coolings working. I appreciate you asking him

[Ron223]

You do realize that now I'm gonna be thinking about this job until you tell me what you had to do to fix it? Considering the freezing at the service valve, it really seems like its "flashing" off right there. And as you said, if it is a clogged screen, Why would it work fine in cooling?! In both cycles were pushing a high pressure liquid through that line. The only thing changing is the direction.... Is this a recycled line set or new? Even if something were "floating" in there you would think it would block the metering device in cooling. It may be worth tapping in another valve near the AH just to see if its doing it between the two points. If not I'd say check it also just before the metering device. I will admit I am kinda puzzled myself and just throwing ideas out there at the moment... The drier is bi-flow right? I sure would like to see what some other techs may have to say.

[elamechanical]

Continuing to brainstorm. If I'm reading this drop at my 3/8 line valve port, this would eliminate my outdoor coilI which is my evaporator in heating mode) from having a restriction because the port is before the coil. Which again leads me to the piston. Seeing if you agree with this train of thought. Trying process of elimination.

[elamechanical]

Interested in other thoughts myself. Ron appreciate your interes and input. I will definitely post my findings. I think were thinking along the same lines. My next move is to cut a port after the indoor coil and another one before the piston on the indoor side. Thx again. I'm going crazy. I have 2 thousand dollars pending on this. Also, I sold this heat pump for this particular situation, which is hard to do in itself in new england. Luckily homeowners haven't been there so they don't know the full scoop at this time.

[Ron223]

Continuing to brainstorm. If I'm reading this drop at my 3/8 line valve port, this would eliminate my outdoor coilI which is my evaporator in heating mode) from having a restriction because the port is before the coil. Which again leads me to the piston. Seeing if you agree with this train of thought. Trying process of elimination.

Yes. I believe your problem is after the 3/4 valve and before you return to the 3/8. Somewhere in between. I have given consideration to the RV but don't see how it could cause these conditions. Even if it were leaking by your suction (at true suction) would typically be higher with lower head. You also may need to check for a difference before/after the indoor txv in heat. Obviously, something is restricting your flow.

[elamechanical]

Thx again for everyones time. Ill be sure to update. Feel free to throw 2 cents in anytime. Thx

[catmanacman]

On payne ,bryant and carrier units that have the piston at the service valve
you will always have a low pressure reading in heat mode at the liquid line pressur tap as you are reading pressure after it has been metered you have to check pressure at the true suctin port .

[elamechanical]

Cool thx. That confirms that that reading is after the piston. I did take a reading on the true suction port and it was the same,dropping down to around 50 psi, then the. comprssor getting noisy and eventually tripping. Sound familiar in any way. Thx

[catmanacman]

Did you weight charge in

[elamechanical]

I did. That's the puzzling thing. In cooling, I have good pressures, good subcooling 12, good indoor temp differential. In heating, 240 psi on the 3/4 line, pulling down to 50 psi on 3/8 line. I've replaced indoor txv, filter drier, and blow through piston at condenser in both directions. My next is to see if the piston is the right size for a 1.5 ton. I can't imagine it came with the wrong, but at this point ill try anything. Also, any idea what my pressure drop acrosss indoor coil may be in heating mode. Indooor coil being condensing coil? I'm sure its not supposed to be 200 and counting. Great questions thx

[sgagne199]

Cool thx. That confirms that that reading is after the piston. I did take a reading on the true suction port and it was the same,dropping down to around 50 psi, then the. comprssor getting noisy and eventually tripping. Sound familiar in any way. Thx

Really seems like a restriction is going on, in piping in between units to me. I would add ports to the system at the inlet and outlet of the indoor unit and probably on either side of the drier as well. If u do that you are capable of pin pointing the spot in the system where u are getting this pressure drop. U may find that the pressure at the inlet of the indoor unit is already low before entering the metering device. And another thought what if the check valve was stuck open at the outdoor metering device forcing the compressor to pump thru two metering devices rather than one like it should be?

[hvacvegas]

I see alot of posts, by regular members, that meet the post requirements for professional membership.

Have you guys applied yet?
If your not in the industry, then please do not post in this section.
If you are in the industry, please please please, apply.

There are alot of highly skills professionals not weighing in on the situation, due to the location of this thead.

If it was in the pro's area, you'd get alot more responses, from different members.

Just sayin.

[bluecool]

I apologize, Let me correct myself. The high side wasn't pulling into a vacuum. It was rapidly pulling down though. Once it reached around 50 psi, the hissing began along with the marbles in the compressor sound. High side being on the liguid valve service port. That's when I quickly killed the disconnect. Its frustrating because I went there for a new startup, and found that a carpenter put a finish nail through one of my refrigeration lines. Finally located it, opened the wall and made the repair, now this issue. All when it should have been a simple flip switches and wtch her run on a Saturday. Thx again

maybe check the LL service valve, could be mostly closed causing the comp. internal relief to open. which I think would cause lower head and the hissing sound.

[sgagne199]

maybe check the LL service valve, could be mostly closed causing the comp. internal relief to open. which I think would cause lower head and the hissing sound.

Well the only issue i see with that diagnosis is that it runs properly in cooling he said

[elamechanical]

Definitely going to add porright before and after indoor coil.also, before and after drier. may just swap out LL service valve, just for the fact thats where I saw ice beginning to form in the heating mode. Kills to change parts just because, but its hard to pinpoint the problem when all is well in the cooling mode. That's why I think changing LL valve might be useless because how come its open in cooling. Probably will anyhow. Who knows, maybe the indoor distributor is plugged, guess that's why I really need gauge ports in various locations. Ugly scenario. Thx again

[bluecool]

Well the only issue i see with that diagnosis is that it runs properly in cooling he said

true, I'll keep thinking

[Ron223]

Definitely going to add porright before and after indoor coil.also, before and after drier. may just swap out LL service valve, just for the fact thats where I saw ice beginning to form in the heating mode. Kills to change parts just because, but its hard to pinpoint the problem when all is well in the cooling mode. That's why I think changing LL valve might be useless because how come its open in cooling. Probably will anyhow. Who knows, maybe the indoor distributor is plugged, guess that's why I really need gauge ports in various locations. Ugly scenario. Thx again

But if the gauge connection is go on after the piston on the 3/8 line, it may have only been frosting because it is flashing off and would have had a very low saturation temp due to the low suction pressure. This could likely be a secondary symptom. I would resplendent start with checking pressures at the various locations already mentioned.

[Ron223]

I see alot of posts, by regular members, that meet the post requirements for professional membership.

Have you guys applied yet?
If your not in the industry, then please do not post in this section.
If you are in the industry, please please please, apply.

There are alot of highly skills professionals not weighing in on the situation, due to the location of this thead.

If it was in the pro's area, you'd get alot more responses, from different members.

Just sayin.

Yes. Applying for pro status this week sometime.

[1epm]

Probably not the best place to make a first post but I will weigh in. It sounds like problems started after repair to damaged line. Was filter drier replaced and if so was a biflow drier used? Good Luck

[1epm]

should have read post date

[ductman82]

is it possible that the orfice at the condenser is in backwards? on payne equipment they will fit in either way. i worked with a guy who loved to put them in backwards. it wasnt on heatpumps but it did act as a restriction for cooling.

[gravity]

i have not read this entire thread because its sooooo LONG.

but heres some things. you cannot put your high side gauge onto the 3/8" line in heating mode. you are sensing the pressure drop of the piston at this point. you are seeing it ice up because this is where it is metering. let the unit run for 15 minutes and re-check. you also cannot check SH and SC on a payne system in heating mode unless you take the unit apart.

you say you hear a hissing noise in heating mode. my payne unit makes the same noise in heating.

we need more info to help you.

return temps db/wb
supply temps db/wb
outdoor temp.
return and supply static would also be nice.
superheat, subcooling, pressures and temperatures in cooling mode.

if it is hot inside and warm outside and you lack airflow inside you unit is going to scream and you will have a higher then normal pressure on vapor line.

[gravity]

i read some more posts. there is no check valve in the outdoor unit. if liquid is going towards the outdoor unit it forces the piston to seat and meters through it. if liquid is going away from outdoor unit it pushes the piston the opposite way and refrigerant flows in all directions around the piston. the internal relief valve SHOULD not open unless the discharge pressure is ~ 500psi.

what size indoor unit and what size outdoor unit? hopefully they are matched.

[beenthere]

I did. That's the puzzling thing. In cooling, I have good pressures, good subcooling 12, good indoor temp differential. In heating, 240 psi on the 3/4 line, pulling down to 50 psi on 3/8 line. I've replaced indoor txv, filter drier, and blow through piston at condenser in both directions. My next is to see if the piston is the right size for a 1.5 ton. I can't imagine it came with the wrong, but at this point ill try anything. Also, any idea what my pressure drop acrosss indoor coil may be in heating mode. Indooor coil being condensing coil? I'm sure its not supposed to be 200 and counting. Great questions thx

Last Payne I installed, the data plate on the outdoor unit said the SC was suppose to be 15°F. So check what the unit your working on calls for.

As others have aid, check the strainer at the outdoor piston. Also make sure the service valves are fully open.

While you have the LL open and the strainer out. blow nitrogen through the vapor line and out the LL to see if any dirt got in the line.

[catmanacman]

Is the indoor txv factory installed or field installed

[garyed]

My initial reaction was that you are undercharged but after reading the posts it doesn't sound so. So assuming you have the correct charge in cooling & also assuming your pressure on the common suction line is close to the reading you get at the 3/8" line port. It's usually a few psi lower but still close. This sounds like a job for Bullet piercing valves. I haven't used them in a while but they can make diagnosing a restriction easier especially since there is no liquid line port on a Payne. They're very inexpensive & simple to install without losing any gas. I would put one on the 3/8" liquid line at the condenser right before it gets to the service port first. You should read close to the the same high pressure as the big hot gas port with a little pressure drop. If there is a big drop you know your restriction is somewhere in between most likely in the AH (TXV check valve). If its OK then put one on the high side line between the compressor & the RV & see if that reads any different. Something just sounds awful strange about this system.

[suBcools]

is it possible that the orfice at the condenser is in backwards? on payne equipment they will fit in either way. i worked with a guy who loved to put them in backwards. it wasnt on heatpumps but it did act as a restriction for cooling.

Having a piston in backwards won't restrict flow. It's the opposite, there is no metering / restricting at all. The liquid will bypass the piston, flood the evap, cause high suction pressure, and likely that the compressor would also be getting a lot of liquid.

[Ron223]

To the OP, I did speak with my friend and he agreed with what we already came up with about tapping in with some valves to find your restriction. The common thought is that you are restricted somewhere as we discussed. Let us know and good luck.

[Ron223]

Have you been able to check the HP any further yet?