what are the best gauges out there?

[akpunkacr]

I'm a 3rd year apprentice and have heard from 3 different techs as to what are the best manifold gauges to get so being the idiot i am...i have 2 or the 3 sets..anyone tried out the new ritchie titan 2 valve manifolds?

[driftamile]

I have tried some different manifold sets. i love the sight glass but yet to find one where I actually like the valves themselves. I bought a yellow jacket brute. I still have it but use it as a backup because I hate the valves. I have to close them way too tight to get them to close.This was from day one. I like a simple set of yellow jacket guages although I wish the guages them selves were Marsh and not plastic. I also like the yellow jacket hoses with the ball valve on the end. jmho

[davidr]

Originally posted by driftamile
I like a simple set of yellow jacket guages although I wish the guages them selves were Marsh and not plastic. I also like the yellow jacket hoses with the ball valve on the end. jmho

Man talk about deja vu there is a set of gauges on my van that fits this description perfectly.

Yellow Jacket series 41 manifold with Marsh brass gauges & yellow jacket 5' hoses with ball valve ends.

[driftamile]

David...."It doesnt get any better than this"

[r2]

first i bought the basic yellow jacket 41 set with a quick release on high side and after a year or so i upgrated to the brute manifold and bought ball valve hoses for that.

didn't take me long to dig out my 41 and swap the new hoses to it.

[racingfan]

I have a imperial manifold with the 4 valves. High/low/charging hoses are 3/8in. And it also has a 1/2in. hose for vacuuming. I absolutly love them. Although my favorite actual gauges are made by CPS. That is the kind of gauges I put on the imperial manifold.

I don't know the model or series num. of the set. But they are annadized aluminum blue.

[turtle]

Originally posted by akpunkacr
I'm a 3rd year apprentice and have heard from 3 different techs as to what are the best manifold gauges to get so being the idiot i am...i have 2 or the 3 sets..anyone tried out the new ritchie titan 2 valve manifolds?


This is Turtle.

i like the set of guages with the blue colored guage on the left and the red colored guage on the right. Then if you want to really go all out you can get you another yellow colored 6 foot hose to go on the center to let you stand on a ladder and have the drum of freon stay on the ground and don't have to fight with the drum up there.

Any set different from this is just a better toy to play with. i think I use the set of guages that is named after a insect and work pretty good for me.

TURTLE

[hvac3901]

Originally posted by racingfan
I have a imperial manifold with the 4 valves. High/low/charging hoses are 3/8in. And it also has a 1/2in. hose for vacuuming. I absolutly love them. Although my favorite actual gauges are made by CPS. That is the kind of gauges I put on the imperial manifold.

I don't know the model or series num. of the set. But they are annadized aluminum blue.

my co-worker just purchased four of those exact ones... have you tried putting them on a vacum pump, and micron gauged them yet???? they are junk hoses, and the manifold wont pull own eigther. great service idea but they just dont work.

[vlux]

I use the quick release or low loss ends but I see alot of guys use the hoses with the ball valves on the end. Someone said they dont trust the low loss ends with r410a refrigerant or the other high press. refigerants what do you guys think, hoses are rated for high pressure refrig.WHAT AM i MISSING?

[mark beiser]

I have tried a lot of different manifold, from 2 valve to 4 valve, with sight glass, etc.

The setup I prefere is just a simple Yellow Jacket 2 valve brass manifold with brass 1% accuracy gauges.

Simple, accurate, and doesn't weigh much, unlike some of the big manifolds.

http://home.comcast.net/~mbeiser/ACstuff/evac/gauge1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~mbeiser/ACstuff/evac/gauge2.jpg

[rickl]

I agree with Turtle. Go with cheap manifold/guages, long center hose. Your going to drop them a time or two anyway and be buying replacement guages at least a couple times a year. What are the ball valves on the end of the hoses For? You guys reclaiming the vapor in your guages? For the small stuff, use a short hose with a guage only. Don't need a manifold to check pressure.

[tinknocker service tech]

turtle put it best
blue, red and yellow

[Swampfox]

I have the same setup as you Mark, except for them brass gauges, never seen those before, where do you get those? I might have a semi hard time destroying them :D

[hvac3901]

Mark,

after that last post you made on you set-up i ordered some exactly like it. I am eagerly antisipating their arrival.

Since we are on the subject some what.

how many of you gents have abandoned their rubber hoses for copper tubing when doing triple-vacs? After the afore-mentioned test of a co-workers equipment I tested my own, and was disappointed in the leak rate of my own hoses, manifold was tight as could be but the hoses leak like a sive!!! the next unit i worked on i used copper tubing with flare nuts sealed the whole bit with refrigerant oil and BAMMM bAMMMM BAMM triple evac'd the line set coil and compressor, jogged the compressor with my hand to free up trapped moisture under oil, and had that puppy down to 200 micron in less than a hour. My hoses would go down to 200 micon easy, but would rise to 1500 or so very quickly. The ultimate vacum acheived using the copper tubing was 180, and held all night until i charged it the next day. I am through trying to VAC units with hoses, its a waste or good VAC pump service life IMO.

[mathwei]

TESTO makes a really nifty set o' gauges (http://www.testo330.com/testo523/form.html) that give superheat/subcooling digitally! There is another model that includes vacuum port and readout as well!

[ladyfire3374]

Swampfox
You'd be surprised. I slung mine off my backpack when I was starting to climb a ladder. Dinged the edge of one gauge. Now if I squeeze the gauge, the needle moves. Added those rubber boots to the new gauges and Velcro to the backpack. I do like the big, thick crystal, though.

[fitter638nyc]

My service set up
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2773/dsc043414eg.jpg

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7025/dsc043426rm.jpg

[gibrenob]

I like these gauges.

A little bulky, but nice big easy to read numbers.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8575/p61309644us.jpg

[souper phly]

Running the same setup as mark but with sealrights on the high and low and a ball valve on the bottle line, Same hose arangement on my 410 set all the hoses I've ever seen are rated to 800psi working 4000 burst I have no idea what people are talking about that say you need to have special hoses for 410.

[azdwight]

I have 3 sets i basic yellow jacket one brute one basic 410A set "1 and "2 glycerine filled gauges. the Brutes have 6' black boses and i use them for pulling a vascum
i love the brutes but hate the valves as others have stated.
I just bought and have used for 2 weeks now the JB digitals and so far I except for on problem think that they dont suck.
I dont like not having them back lighted.
I dont like the temp probes much and want to "convert" my fluke plpe clamps to the this weekend
I have had problems with conectivity measuring sub cooling only. though I think that may be or have beemn from a lack of sub-cooling.
has anyone else used these? any opinions?

[turtle]

Originally posted by fitter638nyc
My service set up
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2773/dsc043414eg.jpg

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7025/dsc043426rm.jpg

this is Turtle.

You got me here. What is the duct tape on the back of the guages for ?

TURTLE

[souper phly]

keeps the goo in the gauges thats why I got rid of my liquid filled set. :)

[masterhvac]

I have 3 sets... all yellow jacket... just what I got used too I suppose.

[doglips]

I use the Yellow JAcket 41 series...I have to sets...and do residential installs....I find I use the heck out of the R22 and 410 combo set....seems everyone has the Yellow jacket set...simple and works....once you get out to the feild you can get the higher end sets for what your working on most of the time.

I looked at the digital sets...JB..man the prices is way above gopher pay....need to rob the owner to afford them. :)

[jack legg]

I have a complete set of Yellow Jacket and love 'em (Standard, Brute, Bantum, 401A). The only problem is that the O rings in the valve stems and the hose tips have to be replaced a couple of times a year, if you want to pull a good vac with them. Ricthie claims it's grit in the Freon that wears the O rings out. But when the O rings are new, they'll pull below 300 u with no problem...

Ritchie also makes an O ring grease that is supposed to extend the life of the O rings. I use it but can't tell if it does much good..

In any case, get a set of Yellow Jacked gauges, a spare set of O rings and a spare set of hoses. I pulled a system down today to below 250 (Inficon) using this set up...

[yvairguy]

I usually have to order them because I can’t find anyone that stocks them. I use the JB manifold with the brass JB gauges, only problem I have is getting a replacement cover to fit the gauges as the ones that fit the plastic housed gauges don’t fit right. I’ve used all the others just like these the best.

Anybody know the price on the testo stuff?

[markco]

Originally posted by tinknocker service tech
turtle put it best
blue, red and yellow Ditto, Ditto, Ditto. It ain't rocket science, and your going to be dropping these things in the sand, dirt, mud, etc...
By cheap ones, and when it's time to replace them, buy another set of cheap ones.

[amickracing]

I have both yellow jackets. The plain Jane 3 hose set for service, with 3' hoses and low loss fittings that screw onto the ends (got the hoses cheap and had the extra low loss fittings).

I have a 4port set of brutes aswell (the ole style with all of the knobs on the front) with 4' hoses on em. Them hoses have the low loss fittings on em already.

I suspect that my service gauges are a bit off calibration, just a gut feeling, probably not more than 5psi off... but they'll get checked out this weekend (along with my 4 ports).

I'm dealin with a buddy on another set of 4 ports for that rare time I do 2 units together, I can pressure check and vacuum with out swapping gauges. Just need to find a good place to put em.

When I break down and get some new service gauges I'm going to rob the gauges off the old manifold and put em on some 6 or 12" hoses for the quick check stuff.

I personally don't quite understand the purpose of the ball valve hoses. Most guys I see that have them don't have low loss fittings, so you better unscrew them fast or you'll burn your fingers. And with the low loss fittings I can suck the liquid out of my high side back into the unit just like you could with the ball valve hoses (except I have to remove my high side).

[gbfromsd]

RE: dropping your gages

mine fell off a roof ladder today. YJ Brute II's. The cast body cracked at one of the service hose fittings.

STAY AWAY from cast manifold bodies. Get a solid block manifold body.

As mentioned before, cheap gages but not too cheap. You'll be replacing them once a year or so. No point in liquid filled unless you're working a stationary job with low risk.

[mark beiser]

Don't use the super cheep plastic housing gauges. Get some Yellow Jacket brass gauges. They are not very expensive, they are 1% accuracy, they hold zero much better than the plastic ones, and they are very durable.
I have 2 sets of brass gauges, one set is 5-6 years old, one is 3 years old. Both still hold zero better than the plastic ones do new.

The brass gauges are flat out a better value, IMO.

If you drop your manifold often enough that it affects your choice of manifolds, perhaps you need be a tad more carefull. :p


Originally posted by amickracing
I personally don't quite understand the purpose of the ball valve hoses. Most guys I see that have them don't have low loss fittings, so you better unscrew them fast or you'll burn your fingers. And with the low loss fittings I can suck the liquid out of my high side back into the unit just like you could with the ball valve hoses (except I have to remove my high side).

I barely loose any more refrigerant with ball valve hoses than with low loss fittings. There is only about 6" of hose after the ball valve, so not much refrigerant to cause a burn.
I finally got tired of seal failures and leaks of check valve type low loss fittings, so will never use them again. There have been a couple of times where I lost most of the charge from a system due to a seal failure in a check valve type low loss fitting, I had to just stand back and watch it blow rather than injure myself trying to stop it. I have frosted my fingers less with my setup than I did with the check valve fittings.
Because I have just the normal ends on the hoses, I never have a hard time getting them to fit on the service ports. Some units can be a PITA.
With my ball valve setup, I only have very short sections of hose to purge the air from when I hook up to a system.

I absolutely hate check valve type fitting, I don't know what I will do if the EPA ever decides that the ball valve setup like I use is not "deminimus".

[Edited by mark beiser on 06-16-2006 at 12:14 AM]

[epacertified]

the best ones are the ones that you can afford

[jtsuttle]

Originally posted by amickracing
...I can suck the liquid out of my high side back into the unit just like you could with the ball valve hoses (except I have to remove my high side).


Originally posted by mark beiser
...With my ball valve setup, I only have very short sections of hose to purge the air from when I hook up to a system...

Dumb rookie question: Can you guys explain the procedure for sucking liquid from the high side and purging air from gages?

[woody19]

Recently sold a Yellow Jacket Titan set-up to a tech. who said he didn't like the basic J/B manifold he purchased 6 months earlier.Yesterday he brought the YJ Titan back saying he couldn't pull a decent vacuum with it. Checked his hoses,etc. and finally used his J/B to complete the job.I called Ritchie and spoke with an engineer who told me this is not an unusaul complaint and that the manifold was made for pressure but the o-rings would not necessarily hold up under a vacuum. Found that very interesting since most manifolds will at least allow you to pull a vacuum before isolating and removing them. Guess I'll stick with the J/B that I have used for over 30 years ( with the brass gauges).

[Reeferman]

I have had a set of Titans with black hoses which are used for evac only and have never had a problem with them leaking. I used to have a set of Bantoms for this and they were the biggest piece of crap that Yellow Jacket ever made.

[gonefishing]

I never dropped these in 33 years. Unfortunatley, I let a
co-worker use them one time, hence the replaced high side
gage. Never been repacked, still working when I hung them
up. No problem holding in vacuum. New hoses? yes. Just
showing a little age, kinda like me. :D
I should have kicked the guys butt that broke the glass on
the gage.


http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/609/myoldimperials3fn.jpg

[phosgene]

for every day abuse, get the Brute

[Edited by phosgene on 06-17-2006 at 10:05 AM]

[oloenneker]

Originally posted by jtsuttle


Dumb rookie question: Can you guys explain the procedure for sucking liquid from the high side and purging air from gages? [/B]

Sucking The liquid refers to: While you have the system running and your guages are hooked up to the service ports, there is liquid in the high side hose. If you have a ball valve, or check valve low loss fitting, you can remove the high side hose from the machine and have the liquid trapped in the hose. All you have to do then is open up the high and low side valve and let the compressor pull out the liquid from your manifold. You usually end up with whatever the prssure the suction side, but it will only be vapor rather than liquid.
This is handy if you install alot, so you dont send a bunch of liquid R22/R410A into a new lineset before you have hooked up the pump...

Bleeding the air, referrs to making sure that you have no air in the hoses, before hooking up to an existing system. This is sorta important if you care about not getting any contaminants into the system (I.E. Air/moisture etc..)
If you have low loss fittings or ball valves, you can leave the trapped vapor in the hoses, and therefore, no air is present to enter the system you are hooking up to.

[R12rules]

If we buy the cheapest gages, the uei meters, the homeowner rated ladders, .... what's next? We gonna start riding around in station wagons? :)



No, the hose ends with ball valves it not the biggest issue.


I am disapointed whenever I see a set of gages with ball valves 6inches from the end.
ALWAYS!
as to the arguement the no loss fittings leak over time ... so what?
Ever had to replace your flashlight batteries? Same principle.
When I was in school, we were told that gages were expendable.

Whenever I read a system subcooling/ superheat ... I am reminded of just how important our gage readings are to the work we perform.
And all day long on this very forum guys will rant and rave over how we are "just taking readings" ... "we're only trying to tell if she's working halfway decently or not..."


If you approach a system and no NOT carry a thermometer with you, then you are just faking it and it dont matter which set of gages you drag out!
And if even if you do bring along a thermometer, if your gages are not set to ZERO in advance, your only gonna be kicking yourself later for even putting them on the system.


Unless your a "gas n' go" type of fella, you want to do the best job you can so you dont get a call-back.
You also want to do the best job so the company benefits by repeat business.

Anyone can go out there and add some gas ... but only a good mechanic can figure out what's wrong and fix it.


How about if your micron meter was only reading accurate to 20%? Would you settle for that?
So why do you accept your gages that way?

[nratom45-70]

I just bought a set of CPS Black Max gauges they seem to be high quality

[sidecarr]

I have 4 of the imperial 4 port blue aluminum manifold then another imperial 4 port with the sight glass , have 2 of yellow jacket brute the original with the handles on the front ,a little bulky but love these gauges ,and a new set dont like the new ones . also have about 10 sets of the impierial ,yellow jacket and J-B 3 port manifolds , would post a pic of the imperials but not sure how to , as far as gauges the manifold will last forever, I usually replace my gauges and hoses once a year . I have a lot of manifolds because I work on chillers and the gauges on the machine read the circuit , if I have a problem I hook a set of gauges to each compressor in the circuit , also have 2 sets of gauges with just high side gauges on both sides for pressure checking a system with nitrogen

[mark beiser]

This thread is over 3 years old now. Many of us have moved on to digital gauges that are in a whole other class of accuracy and resolution that an analogue gauge can't hope to match. ;)

[nratom45-70]

This thread is over 3 years old now. Many of us have moved on to digital gauges that are in a whole other class of accuracy and resolution that an analogue gauge can't hope to match. ;)

I for one won't be doing that until the cost comes down and the sturdiness goes up.

[sidecarr]

I got a set of digitals last year used it twice now it sits in the garage ,to bulky ,to expensive,like my imperials better

[epacertified]

I for one won't be doing that until the cost comes down and the sturdiness goes up.
ME THREE
I always wait until the newness rubbs off ,

[itsiceman]

I got a set of digitals last year used it twice now it sits in the garage ,to bulky ,to expensive,like my imperials better
What kind and are you looking to sell them ?

[sidecarr]

testo . the company I work for right now buys our tools so its not really mine to sell

[davidr]

ME THREE
I always wait until the newness rubbs off ,

Lol...........I've been using the Digi-Cools for close to five years now.

Not new by any means.

[richvacr]

hvac3901 i agree bought those gauges a few years ago and after a while thought recovery was taking do long so I only used them for start ups till the low side came aprt while standing on a ladder in the snowe and lost parts. propapbly wont fix it
Been happy with yellow jacket cost more but no problems

[mark beiser]

testo . the company I work for right now buys our tools so its not really mine to sell

You'd be a lot happier with Digi-Cool digital gauges mounted on your favorite manifold than with that Testo set.

[sidecarr]

the digital gauges dont have r11 or r123 on them . I'll stick to my 4 port imperials wasnt to impressed with the digitals ,did see the digital Johnson controls make $2500 plugs into a blackberry that you download the unit model # into and it has temp probes and amp probes you put the hoses temp probes and amp probes on the unit and let it run for 10 minutes or so and it prints out a report on how the units running , the one I saw the report read partial blockage of evap coil . dont think they sell them .think you have to work there . they weigh a lot the aluminum manifold block is 12" x6"

[Reeferman]

I got a set of digitals last year used it twice now it sits in the garage ,to bulky ,to expensive,like my imperials better

And what ones were they?

[sidecarr]

Testo

[itsiceman]

the digital gauges dont have r11 or r123 on them . The older ones have both of them and some of the new ones can be programed with whatever you want.

[fcs]

Digi Cool 1250

[hvacrmedic]

Digi Cool 1250

Yep, the BEST. I'll have a 1250 just as soon as my conversion kit gets here. I'm getting the dual spring clamps for it as well. No more switching one sensor back and forth between the lines. I didn't realize until the other day that you can also measure temperature drops with the dual sensors, such as across suspected restrictions, or across reversing valves. That'll come in handy.

[jtrouse]

this is Turtle.

You got me here. What is the duct tape on the back of the guages for ?

TURTLE

Don't you know?? That's to keep the Freezon from getting out! :eek:
j.t

[blittteral]

I have a set of testo 523 and mastercool I have had to send the maqstercool in 2 times first low side stayed in a vacume nowits the high side reading 78 psi all the time does anyone know about these mastercools? I am ready to run them over

[270wsm]

I can't justify the high cost of the digi-cool. If my boss was willing to pay for them I would try it out.

[brjones]

I do a lot of instrument calibration work and my experience tells me that even the best bourdon tube type guages are marginally accurate at best. I notice a lot of guys like to "Zero" their guages. I almost never see a bourdon tube type guage that is calibrated to be spot on at say 100 or 200 psi that shows zero with no pressure. Some are way off. If using these guages and wanting to be as accurate as possible my advice would be to calibrate each one in the normal pressure range that you are measuring and ignore the zero reading. The repeatability is still not very good but it is the best you will do.

If you don't have access to calibration equipment such as dead weight testers or high end transducers you might know someone with a Digicool that you could use as a reference.

How often do most pull a deep vacuum on their manifolds to check for leaks?

Some of the rubber hoses claim to be good for deep vacuum work but my experience tells me there is no such thing no matter what brand or type. If you don't use SS or copper your only fooling yourself. A good set of SS lines will last a lifetime if treated right and you replace the orings every now and then. Why do guys avoid them? They are a little harder to work with but are more than worth the trouble.

I use high end transducers for accurate pressure measurement but if I were to buy anything new it would be the Digicool and mount them on a 4 port manifold. I like my Refco manifold but I am sure there are other good ones.

How many old timers can remember these Robinair manifolds? I don't use it much but it still holds a deep vacuum when I have all the orings in good condition!

[nratom45-70]

I can't justify the high cost of the digi-cool. If my boss was willing to pay for them I would try it out.

I agree, if they're so good let the owner pay for them. At the very least the owner should at add a fee that the employee who bought them would receive for an expense of that type.

[fcs]

I agree, if they're so good let the owner pay for them. At the very least the owner should at add a fee that the employee who bought them would receive for an expense of that type.



I've got the 1200 and the1250 come out of my pocket. Best money I every spent.

[nratom45-70]

How many old timers can remember these Robinair manifolds? I don't use it much but it still holds a deep vacuum when I have all the orings in good condition!

I've been in this field for 26 years and never seen that gauge set, is it OEM or modified by you?

[nratom45-70]

I've got the 1200 and the1250 come out of my pocket. Best money I every spent.

I'm sure your boss would agree, it didn't cost him a dime!big2

[fcs]

I'm sure your boss would agree, it didn't cost him a dime!big2

I get paid well to do my Job and treated great I strive to do the best and learn more all the time and find tools that make me a better tech NOT for my boss but out of Personal Commitment.

I believe and teach my Son when you do your job your goal is to exceed their expectations. You need to work to be the best you can be you Employer is your pay check not the person who sets your work ethic or commitment to quality.

I don't hire Tech who aren't driven to be the best. Learning all the time, wanting better tools, and will to go to class even if it is on their own dime and time. I treat techs great and I at and demand a lot out of them.

I agree their not cheap. And can be hard to find the money for but if you want the best out there and will last (and stay calibrated for years and years) then Digi Cool for your.

JMO

[davidr]

I get paid well to do my Job and treated great I strive to do the best and learn more all the time and find tools that make me a better tech NOT for my boss but out of Personal Commitment.



Well said.

[fcs]

Well said.

Thanks

[nratom45-70]

Well said.

Personal commitment is fine & I try to live by that but too many owners live pretty high on the hog while paying their employees too little and making MINIMAL INVESTMENT in their company. It is very common in the area I live in.

[davidr]

Personal commitment is fine & I try to live by that but too many owners live pretty high on the hog while paying their employees too little and making MINIMAL INVESTMENT in their company. It is very common in the area I live in.


That's common across the whole United States not just certain areas.

You could always hang out your own shingle.

[nratom45-70]

That's common across the whole United States not just certain areas.

You could always hang out your own shingle.

That's an option that I've considered, I'm in my fifties though, and it seems a little late in the game.

[fcs]

Personal commitment is fine & I try to live by that but too many owners live pretty high on the hog while paying their employees too little and making MINIMAL INVESTMENT in their company. It is very common in the area I live in.

I agree with that but that does not change the commitment or quality of your work.

Them not having commitment,quality (ethic) is there issues. You still work for the guy who face is in the mirror in the morning when you shave.

Good committed tech are hard to find and good employers want them and want to keep them.

[fcs]

nratom45-70

Are you by Cambridge OH? I use to live there, Went to College in New Corncord

[nratom45-70]

nratom45-70

Are you by Cambridge OH? I use to live there, Went to College in New Corncord

Yes, and my wife works in Byesville. FYI I'm not digging at you, I just think top techs spend too much money for tools that their employers should but usually won't provide. The owners can write them off but employes ( unless they go long form) can't even deduct them on their taxes.

[fcs]

Yes, FYI I'm not digging at you, I just think top techs spend too much money for tools that their employers should but usually won't provide. The owners can write them off but employes ( unless they go long form) can't even deduct them on their taxes.

I agree a tool allowance is a great idea so is a train allowance if the Employer can afford then.

I live in Cambridge for 2 years when I finish Grad School in Chicago. Did My Under grade at Muskingun

Boy SE Ohio had beautiful Fall season miss them.

[Some Dude]

Yep, the BEST. I'll have a 1250 just as soon as my conversion kit gets here. I'm getting the dual spring clamps for it as well. No more switching one sensor back and forth between the lines. I didn't realize until the other day that you can also measure temperature drops with the dual sensors, such as across suspected restrictions, or across reversing valves. That'll come in handy.

I just did a search on the 1250, looks like my next purchase. Just in case here is a link for the conversion.
http://digitalzeus.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/upgrading-the-digi-cool®-drsa™-1200-with-enhanced-digi-cool®-drsa™-1250-capabilities/

[n-e-w Jerz!]

Personal commitment is fine & I try to live by that but too many owners live pretty high on the hog while paying their employees too little and making MINIMAL INVESTMENT in their company. It is very common in the area I live in.

same thing happens here in jerz. my 90 day review is coming soon and they better be ready to pay me what i'm use to making and what i think i'm worth. this company has alot of accounts both residential and commercial and been around for over 40 years. i've invested a lot in tools, which i brought with me to work for these people, including a set of digicool 1250 (i'm the only one in the company that has em). this is one of the largest companies i've ever worked for and they expect me to pay 100% of my health care coverage. thats a first for me.

a wise polish woman once told me when describing the praise she use to get from her corporate employeers "talk to my wallet, not my ears"!

[nratom45-70]

I agree a tool allowance is a great idea so is a train allowance if the Employer can afford then.

If you are making your employer money there is no reason he can't afford to(provide training & a tool allowance) unless HE IS THE ONE NOT PERFORMING!

[nratom45-70]

they expect me to pay 100% of my health care coverage. thats a first for me.

a wise polish woman once told me when describing the praise she use to get from her corporate employeers "talk to my wallet, not my ears"!

It's a shame with what has become of health care. I think that woman was my grandmother only she was Scot not Polish.

[fcs]

Yes, and my wife works in Byesville. FYI I'm not digging at you, I just think top techs spend too much money for tools that their employers should but usually won't provide. The owners can write them off but employes ( unless they go long form) can't even deduct them on their taxes.

I'm I remembering right 209 went thought Byesville. Had servale friends who work on the byesville EMS

[fcs]

If you are making your employer money there is no reason he can't afford to(provide training & a tool allowance) unless HE IS THE ONE NOT PERFORMING!

There it a tight market you have a hard time in a tight Econ. were Low bid rules and Employees want Top dollar Health care paid 401 K matching New vans Tools bought for them, Training paid the class fee and time.

It not easy to do some do screw the employees But for good tech they just leave often.

I say if some thinks they can run a business better then and shop in there area than they should give it a go they might be right only one way to put you money and words in to action and find out.

A guy I know said what you say I told him the same thing he went out on his own he got 4 turcks on the road after about 6 yr , He said it been tougher the he thought it would be.

Sound like you should give it a try. You might like it. Life is to short not to be the best you can. Trust me I learn how short life might be is the blink of an eye recently.
JMO

wow did I take us off topic sorry Did mean High Jackhijacked1

[brjones]

The customer is already paying for accurate professional work and both the owner and tech should be committed to providing it. If the owner would consider the time saved and reduced call backs versus the total cost of not having them they might see it differently.

At a minimum every shop should have a calibration schedule, the tools required to do it, and each tech trained to do it. If set up right it would only require a few minutes a week.

The same is true for temperature accuracy. What good is an accurate pressure indication if your actual line temp is not accurate? It's hard enough to identify the more obscure reasons a system isn't charged correctly without starting the process with inaccurate data.

Crystal Engineering makes several high quality products that could be used to calibrate manifold guages. All you need is your N2 tank. http://www.crystalengineering.net/ If you know anyone with a DigiCool you could also use it to check your standard guages.

The old Robinair manifold is still original except for the guages. The valves are double oring sealed and the seats appear to be a white teflon material and are replaceable. It has several fittings for the bottom that range from 1/4" up to 1/2". It could be mounted right on the vacuum pump. It is solid brass and must weigh 6-7 lbs.

I would guess it to be from the 40's or 50's if it wasn't for the teflon type valve seats so maybe it is more like the 60's?

Any of you guys old enough to remember the old cast iron belt drive Robinair vacuum pumps? I still have one that works like new and will pull down to about 15 microns with fresh oil. It weighs almost 70 lbs!

[hvacrmedic]

I just did a search on the 1250, looks like my next purchase. Just in case here is a link for the conversion.
http://digitalzeus.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/upgrading-the-digi-cool®-drsa™-1200-with-enhanced-digi-cool®-drsa™-1250-capabilities/

I appreciate the link. But....

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=339782
:)

I've been using the 1250 for a little over a month now. I'm not fond of the dual sensor arrangement with the single plug. A PITA to keep untangled. Other than that it's exactly what I expected. The backlight is useful even on overcast days when it isn't dark out. It makes the display more readable at an angle.

FWIW, the other day I found that I was 6 deg off on the LL temp on a system. The clamps take some getting used to because they will clamp to 3/8 or smaller lines at different positions so that the sensor won't necessarily be contacting the pipe well. After getting that error I've learned to "feel" when the sensor is centered on the LL before releasing the spring. I do this by moving the sensor side of the open clamp back and forth across the line. You can feel when the sensor is high centered on the line. I should have known to do that, because I had to do the same on my homemade clamp. I just didn't expect that I'd have to do that on a factory clamp. Just a heads up if you get the scissor clamps.

[n-e-w Jerz!]

I appreciate the link. But....

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=339782
:)

I've been using the 1250 for a little over a month now. I'm not fond of the dual sensor arrangement with the single plug. A PITA to keep untangled. Other than that it's exactly what I expected. The backlight is useful even on overcast days when it isn't dark out. It makes the display more readable at an angle.

FWIW, the other day I found that I was 6 deg off on the LL temp on a system. The clamps take some getting used to because they will clamp to 3/8 or smaller lines at different positions so that the sensor won't necessarily be contacting the pipe well. After getting that error I've learned to "feel" when the sensor is centered on the LL before releasing the spring. I do this by moving the sensor side of the open clamp back and forth across the line. You can feel when the sensor is high centered on the line. I should have known to do that, because I had to do the same on my homemade clamp. I just didn't expect that I'd have to do that on a factory clamp. Just a heads up if you get the scissor clamps.

i had the same problem, more with the subcooling sensor then the super heat one. i was thinking of sending it back but then i tried partially pulling out the cylinder within the rubber clamp to get better contact with the pipe. it helps along with what you said about making sure it comes in good contact with the pipe before releasing the spring.

still wish there was a way to manually calibrate though. i have a bad habit of second guessing digital equipment and questioning it's reliability......

[fcs]

The customer is already paying for accurate professional work and both the owner and tech should be committed to providing it. If the owner would consider the time saved and reduced call backs versus the total cost of not having them they might see it differently.

At a minimum every shop should have a calibration schedule, the tools required to do it, and each tech trained to do it. If set up right it would only require a few minutes a week.

The same is true for temperature accuracy. What good is an accurate pressure indication if your actual line temp is not accurate? It's hard enough to identify the more obscure reasons a system isn't charged correctly without starting the process with inaccurate data.

Crystal Engineering makes several high quality products that could be used to calibrate manifold guages. All you need is your N2 tank. http://www.crystalengineering.net/ If you know anyone with a DigiCool you could also use it to check your standard guages.



Good point. I know a guy hear who does calibration he always wanting to check my DigiCools He said the always dead on no problem even after they took a hit from about 5 or 6 ft on the the Cement.

[brjones]

Curious what he uses to test your manifold? Not surprised that he finds them accurate.

It's been a long time now since I read the specs on the DigiCool but I know I was impressed at the time and haven't forgot it.

If you price a single high quality transducer you would think the DigiCool's are really a deal with all of the added functions they provide. I'm not here to promote any product but I do know the difference accurate data makes. Many hours can be wasted trying to troubleshoot problems only to find out that the pressure or temp indications were not accurate. When the gauge says 320 psig I want to know that it is 320!

The same is true with thermocouples. The thermocouple is never wrong but you can sure screw up what it is telling you. If using Type "K" and you don't have the correct connector you have already screwed up. It takes a little more time but I like to use Omega type "T" fine wire thermocouples, clean an area on the copper line and very tightly tape the fine wire end to the line. Be sure the sun isn't shining right on it and read it with a Fluke 52. I have and do use a Fluke type K pipe clamp at times and it works very well IF placed correctly on the line. It does have a higher chance of error compared to taping the fine wire right to the line but it is fast and you can move it easily.

[papa_jo]

yellow jacket - I think the best gauges are the person knowing how to use them.

[Some Dude]

I dont know papjoe, ive been doing some research and im thinking about the didigs. I like my testos but the fact that digicool actually made something upgradeable means something to me. Plus it looks like you can actually order parts.

[fcs]

Curious what he uses to test your manifold? Not surprised that he finds them accurate.

It's been a long time now since I read the specs on the DigiCool but I know I was impressed at the time and haven't forgot it.

If you price a single high quality transducer you would think the DigiCool's are really a deal with all of the added functions they provide. I'm not here to promote any product but I do know the difference accurate data makes. Many hours can be wasted trying to troubleshoot problems only to find out that the pressure or temp indications were not accurate. When the guage says 320 psig I want to know that it is 320!

The same is true with thermocouples. The thermocouple is never wrong but you can sure screw up what it is telling you. If using Type "K" and you don't have the correct connector you have already screwed up. It takes a little more time but I like to use Omega type "T" fine wire thermocouples, clean an area on the copper line and very tightly tape the fine wire end to the line. Be sure the sun isn't shining right on it and read it with a Fluke 52. I have and do use a Fluke type K pipe clamp at times and it works very well IF placed correctly on the line. It does have a higher chance of error compared to taping the fine wire right to the line but it is fast and you can move it easily.

Don't know He work for National Sicence Inst In there calabertion Lab

[brjones]

If he works in a calibration lab then he no doubt has every device known to man and knows what he is doing!

I seriously doubt if anyone can identify this device?? (pic attached)

[gasoilair]

Dead weight tester.

Not to mention it's a purty one too.

[brjones]

Not a dead weight tester but I can see how the scale beam could make someone think it is.

It is a Gage Scale made by the Crosby Steam Gage Co and Crosby spelled it gage not gauge.

Yes it was used to calibrate gauges. The reservoir on the back left corner holds oil and the big bronze handle on the back right that is angled is attached to a piston that creates the pressure. The pressure is applied to the gauge port and passes thru a tube underneath the base and to the scale beam. The big brass wheel in the middle is used to somehow verify that the pressure is evenly applied to the scale beam. It rotates on the pressure point.

Crosby first made these in the late 1800's and this one was made in about 1920.

It was known as an engineering marvel in it's day. The maximum pressure is 4,000 psi. The machine work and detail is fantastic.

[jtrouse]

I do a lot of instrument calibration work and my experience tells me that even the best bourdon tube type guages are marginally accurate at best. I notice a lot of guys like to "Zero" their guages. I almost never see a bourdon tube type guage that is calibrated to be spot on at say 100 or 200 psi that shows zero with no pressure. Some are way off. If using these guages and wanting to be as accurate as possible my advice would be to calibrate each one in the normal pressure range that you are measuring and ignore the zero reading. The repeatability is still not very good but it is the best you will do.

If you don't have access to calibration equipment such as dead weight testers or high end transducers you might know someone with a Digicool that you could use as a reference.

How often do most pull a deep vacuum on their manifolds to check for leaks?

Some of the rubber hoses claim to be good for deep vacuum work but my experience tells me there is no such thing no matter what brand or type. If you don't use SS or copper your only fooling yourself. A good set of SS lines will last a lifetime if treated right and you replace the orings every now and then. Why do guys avoid them? They are a little harder to work with but are more than worth the trouble.

I use high end transducers for accurate pressure measurement but if I were to buy anything new it would be the Digicool and mount them on a 4 port manifold. I like my Refco manifold but I am sure there are other good ones.

How many old timers can remember these Robinair manifolds? I don't use it much but it still holds a deep vacuum when I have all the orings in good condition!



I agree with not bothering to zero the bourdon tube types except as some place to start, otherwise adjust for the area of most common use.

The 1% liquid filled bourdon tube types usually are more accurate through a wider range and usually last longer.

I also agree on the SS hoses for vacuums. Through the years, I've acquired several 1/2", 3/8" and 1/4" sets. I haven't killed any of them yet except for some "O" rings.

I've never seen that "jumbo" Robinair vac manifold in your pic. I have 2 JB evac manifolds and 1 Robinair evac manifold (smaller than yours). The JBs are made to mount on the pump and I modified the Robinair to tilt to allow for the stiffer 1/2 and 3/8 SS hoses. Can post pic if there is some interest.

[jtrouse]

[QUOTE=brjones;4285512]The customer is already paying for accurate professional work .....

The old Robinair manifold is still original except for the guages. The valves are double oring sealed and the seats appear to be a white teflon material and are replaceable. It has several fittings for the bottom that range from 1/4" up to 1/2". It could be mounted right on the vacuum pump. It is solid brass and must weigh 6-7 lbs.

I would guess it to be from the 40's or 50's if it wasn't for the teflon type valve seats so maybe it is more like the 60's?



I got a 1966 Robinair manifold (made by Madden w/Marsh), still in great shape, and it came new with teflon looking valve stem "packing". The valve stem seats are fiber looking. In 1968 I bought a new Madden manifold that also had teflon looking packing but the seats were some lead looking stuff. That 68 manifold was my most used set for almost 40 years before the orig lead? seats wore enough to not close off easily.

Madden/Marsh may have also made that "jumbo" evac manifold.

Madden/Marsh. real Brass, real Glass, real Class.

[fcs]

If he works in a calibration lab then he no doubt has every device known to man and knows what he is doing!

I seriously doubt if anyone can identify this device?? (pic attached)

That to cool

[brjones]

The biggest problem I see with calibrating bourdon tube gauges is repeatability. Most manifold gauges are exposed to both pressure and vacuum. On the test bench I can calibrate one at 250 psig and then pull a mild vacuum and when I go back to 250 psig it might read anywhere from 240-260. Not always that far off but it's not uncommon. Repeat the process and get an entirely different result. Seeing this time after time is why I place little value on the reading a compound gauge shows me. Not sure why they even bother to put compound gauges on manifolds? The vacuum reading is useless anyway. I always say that trying to measure a vacuum with a compound gauge is like trying to time a 1/4 mile drag race with a sun dial!

The old manifold has Robinair cast in the brass on the top but I guess that doesn't have to mean they made it?

This is what the vl assemblies look like.

And the old Robinair vacuum pump. I wouldn't want to lug it up a ladder. If it ever quits it would make a good boat anchor! So far it works as good as or better than any new one I have tried.

[marvin]

The biggest problem I see with calibrating bourdon tube gauges is repeatability. Most manifold gauges are exposed to both pressure and vacuum. On the test bench I can calibrate one at 250 psig and then pull a mild vacuum and when I go back to 250 psig it might read anywhere from 240-260. Not always that far off but it's not uncommon. Repeat the process and get an entirely different result. Seeing this time after time is why I place little value on the reading a compound gauge shows me. Not sure why they even bother to put compound gauges on manifolds? The vacuum reading is useless anyway. I always say that trying to measure a vacuum with a compound gauge is like trying to time a 1/4 mile drag race with a sun dial!

The old manifold has Robinair cast in the brass on the top but I guess that doesn't have to mean they made it?

This is what the vl assemblies look like.

And the old Robinair vacuum pump. I wouldn't want to lug it up a ladder. If it ever quits it would make a good boat anchor! So far it works as good as or better than any new one I have tried.

i still have 2 of the front wheel minifolds 1 is original with the brass gages & beveled glass. installed the large glycerene gages on the other.
my oldest vac. pump is an old kinney cam action from the 50 s.3 hp
&on wheels takes 2 guys to get in on a truck. still have a sgt. welch 1
cfm pump similar to yours but not as pretty. when i think the good old days were so great i pick up the old welch pump & am glad it doesnt go on roofs anymore.

[jtrouse]

The biggest problem I see with calibrating bourdon tube gauges is repeatability. Most manifold gauges are exposed to both pressure and vacuum. On the test bench I can calibrate one at 250 psig and then pull a mild vacuum and when I go back to 250 psig it might read anywhere from 240-260. Not always that far off but it's not uncommon. Repeat the process and get an entirely different result. Seeing this time after time is why I place little value on the reading a compound gauge shows me. Not sure why they even bother to put compound gauges on manifolds? The vacuum reading is useless anyway. I always say that trying to measure a vacuum with a compound gauge is like trying to time a 1/4 mile drag race with a sun dial!

The old manifold has Robinair cast in the brass on the top but I guess that doesn't have to mean they made it?

This is what the vl assemblies look like.

And the old Robinair vacuum pump. I wouldn't want to lug it up a ladder. If it ever quits it would make a good boat anchor! So far it works as good as or better than any new one I have tried.


I have not seen any brass castings from Madden that look like that Robinair evac manifold or the valve assemblies that you took out for the pics. If the other two valve assemblies in the manifold are "O" ringed w/plastic seats, I would not think that Madden made it. The three larger handles and that "pain-in-the a*s" small star handle look just like many Madden handles. My oldest Robinair Dail-A-Charge has those same handles. But that is the only "Madden looking" parts to me. I thought my 66? Robinair Madden made manifold had "Robinair" cast into it. I try to remember to look and get some pics of it tomorrow. Thanks for those pics you have posted. jt

[brjones]

All 5 valve assemblies are the same, just 3 different sizes.

[jtrouse]

All 5 valve assemblies are the same, just 3 different sizes.

My 66 Robinair manifold has "Madden" cast into it and has "Robinair" printed on the Marsh gauges. The gauge needles have the "M" on the tail ends. The valve of yours that has the small star handles is probably made by Muller(SP?). I stated in an earlier post that I thought they made by Madden but the M logo in the pic below looks more like Muller(SP?). The last pic has the two Madden sets I use most days. The "newer" 1966 model on the left I got early this year. The set on the right I bought new in 1968 and have used it as my regular R22 gauges ever since. Have replaced the gauges on top many times and the valve seats once, cannot recall ever dropping it. It's still my favorite set. I may buy a set of YJ Digicools to just to recalibrate these oldies.

[brjones]

If you spring for a DC head and mount them on a good 4 port manifold I would guess you will use it for more than calibrating, I know I would.

How much do you use the temp scales on your current gauges? Knowing how inaccurate the psig reading is I don't even look at the temp scale.

If you don't mind not having the temp scale there are several options for higher quality gauges.

US Gauge/Ametek

http://www.ametekusg.com/

Ashcroft

http://www.ashcroft.com/

McDaniel Controls

http://www.mcdanielcontrols.com/

Lots of options in all price ranges. I do see some surplus outfits selling good ones on Fleabay at times.

I still think the bargain is the DC's!

[jtrouse]

If you spring for a DC head and mount them on a good 4 port manifold I would guess you will use it for more than calibrating, I know I would.

How much do you use the temp scales on your current gauges? Knowing how inaccurate the psig reading is I don't even look at the temp scale.

If you don't mind not having the temp scale there are several options for higher quality gauges.

US Gauge/Ametek

http://www.ametekusg.com/

Ashcroft

http://www.ashcroft.com/

McDaniel Controls

http://www.mcdanielcontrols.com/

Lots of options in all price ranges. I do see some surplus outfits selling good ones on Fleabay at times.

I still think the bargain is the DC's!


BRJ
I think you might be right about me getting used to digital gauges once I get some. Old dog having trouble learning some newer tricks.

I try to recalibrate the gauges I have:
for 60 (+ and - 10) low side (virgin R12 @ accurate room temp comes OK close to my ideal range)
for 250 (+ and - 25) high side (virgin R410 @ accurate room temp is OK)
Both require an accurate drum temp, something else to get calibrated!

If I think the psi on the gauge is accurate, I often use the PT chart. Old dog again. If you look at my last pics most of gauge sets I use have a tap just below so it is easy to do a comparison with another set on the fly.

Also, thanks for the links. jt