some good news from Canada

[jmac00]

No, we did not make them a state :grin2:

THEY did end the Long gun registry

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/15/conservatives-and-enthusiasts-cheer-the-end-of-the-long-gun-registry/

You guys want to send your Politician to Albany and convince those idiots that registration doesn't work

Congratulations :cheers: there is common sense left on the planet :cheers:

[SolarMike]

The majority of Canadians are still for the registry but the current govt was not and couldn't do anything about it till they had a majority in Parliament. I have no problem with people owning rifles for hunting but just like cars I would like to see them registered.

[ControlsInMT]

Okay, I have to ask, why? Do the criminals register their guns as well?

[printer2]

Okay, I have to ask, why? Do the criminals register their guns as well?

So that law abiding gun owners do not overlook the fact they should not sell their guns to non-law abiding bad guys.


Having the registry or not is no big deal to me. Still have to have mine registered.

[ControlsInMT]

Okay, I am still confused. Maybe it's because I am not familiar with your registration system, but how does that prevent it?

[SolarMike]

All it does is allow the cops to trace guns that were used in crimes. It is possible to then trace them back to different buyers and maybe even smugglers or blackmarket types. I still have to get an FAC (firearms acquisition certificate) and do a the courses and police background checks. There are lots hunters with lots of rifles and in the long run, IMO, the registry doesn't harm any law abiding person.

[GAacTech]

Im live in georgia and I know about canadas laws or regulations, are canadians allowed to own handguns, or anything that is automatic? I am glad to see the news about this gun registration stuff.
IMO inside my home is MY buisness, if I cary concealed and they want THAT gun registered I am more understanding of the reasons. But registering a gun for the sake knowing where all the guns are, for solving crimes? I cant remember the last time I heard a murder using a .270 Winchester.

[printer2]

Im live in georgia and I know about canadas laws or regulations, are canadians allowed to own handguns, or anything that is automatic? I am glad to see the news about this gun registration stuff.
IMO inside my home is MY buisness, if I cary concealed and they want THAT gun registered I am more understanding of the reasons. But registering a gun for the sake knowing where all the guns are, for solving crimes? I cant remember the last time I heard a murder using a .270 Winchester.

Look at my avatar.

Rather get shot by a hand gun than a high power rifle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerthorpe_tragedy


So what it to stop you from selling an unregistered rifle to the kid down the street if no one knows the rifle belongs to you?

[SolarMike]

As there is no right to bare arms in our constitution, the laws we make mostly reflect current conditions. When there is a massacre like the one above or the one below,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

we get quite irate and there is always a greater cry for more gun control. I don't know of anyone here that would advocate allowing handguns or any automatic rifles let alone mac10 type stuff.

With very few exceptions, automatic weapons of any kind are banned in Canada. Any assault type rifle must be semi-auto only, there is no carrying of concealed weapons at all and there are strict regs for storage of the weapons and ammo.

[jmac00]

Look at my avatar.

Rather get shot by a hand gun than a high power rifle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerthorpe_tragedy


So what it to stop you from selling an unregistered rifle to the kid down the street if no one knows the rifle belongs to you?

well for one thing common sense. second if someone is going to sell a firearm to ANYONE even if it's registered, I would think ten minutes later it will be reported stolen.

Look, there IS a black market for firearms, there is no way to stop it or control it. Most firearms that are on/in the black market have been stolen from someone else. registering a firearm does nothing if the gun is found at a crime scene except let the police know who originally bought the thing, which means nothing because the cops are not going to give the gun back, they will destroy it. so big whoop

How about this, lets punish the douche that uses a gun during the commission of a crime.....hey, theres an idea. lets make criminals pay.....naaa thats the liberal mamby-pamby the poor criminal is just misunderstood mentality.

Registration DOES NOTHING to deter crime, why is that concept so hard to understand.....sheesh

Lets check out the NYS CoBIS program. This is a unique registration program technically called "Combined Ballistic Identification System" or Ballistic DNA. Not only do we get to register our hand guns but we get to turn in A single fired case from that weapon.

Read it and weep: http://www.ocshooters.com/Reports/cobis/cobis.htm

As of Dec 1, 2011 there are 356,000+ guns registered, tax payer cost $44,333,333+, number of crimes solved, ZERO (although the system did have two "hits")

Gun registration doesn't work because the bad guys DON'T CARE :gah::gah::gah:

[Peztoy]

I thought they got rid of the gun registry because they finally realized forcing legal gun owners to register their gun wasn't making a dent in gun related crimes. Funny thing is that the criminals were not registering their guns. Go figure.

[mrs reb77]

As there is no right to bare arms in our constitution, the laws we make mostly reflect current conditions. When there is a massacre like the one above or the one below,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

we get quite irate and there is always a greater cry for more gun control. I don't know of anyone here that would advocate allowing handguns or any automatic rifles let alone mac10 type stuff.

With very few exceptions, automatic weapons of any kind are banned in Canada. Any assault type rifle must be semi-auto only, there is no carrying of concealed weapons at all and there are strict regs for storage of the weapons and ammo.
SO glad I was born in Missouri instead of north of the border! :.02:

[jmac00]

SO glad I was born in Missouri instead of north of the border! :.02:

what she said :cheers:

[printer2]

well for one thing common sense.
http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_204.gif

You must not think like a criminal.


second if someone is going to sell a firearm to ANYONE even if it's registered, I would think ten minutes later it will be reported stolen.
And if they report another stolen a month later, and then another a couple of months later, do you think the cops will think there is something funny going on.



Look, there IS a black market for firearms, there is no way to stop it or control it.
And not knowing where the guns are coming from helps? Could you imagine if none of our cars were licensed? Somebody crashes into a school bus load of kids and the driver runs away. The cops come around and they notice it is a blue car. "Well that is going to be a lot of help helping us solve this one."


Most firearms that are on/in the black market have been stolen from someone else. registering a firearm does nothing if the gun is found at a crime scene except let the police know who originally bought the thing, which means nothing because the cops are not going to give the gun back, they will destroy it. so big whoop

And the rest are sold by someone who acquired them legally. What is to stop someone that wants to sell guns to any Tom Dick and Hoodie from buying guns legally and then pass them along to unsavory individuals? Oh yeah I forgot.


common sense.


How about this, lets punish the douche that uses a gun during the commission of a crime.....hey, theres an idea. lets make criminals pay.....naaa thats the liberal mamby-pamby the poor criminal is just misunderstood mentality.

We are trying but the damn liberals think differently.


An Ontario Superior Court judge has chosen to defy the federal government by refusing to impose a mandatory three-year sentence on a man caught with a loaded handgun, because to do so would be akin to "cruel and unusual punishment."

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TorontoNewHome/20120214/mcguinty-firearm-minimum-120213/



Registration DOES NOTHING to deter crime, why is that concept so hard to understand.....sheesh


Lets check out the NYS CoBIS program. This is a unique registration program technically called "Combined Ballistic Identification System" or Ballistic DNA. Not only do we get to register our hand guns but we get to turn in A single fired case from that weapon.

Read it and weep: http://www.ocshooters.com/Reports/cobis/cobis.htm

As of Dec 1, 2011 there are 356,000+ guns registered, tax payer cost $44,333,333+, number of crimes solved, ZERO (although the system did have two "hits")

Gun registration doesn't work because the bad guys DON'T CARE :gah::gah::gah:

You seem to miss the point of registration. The main reason for it is to remind the owner to be responsible with their firearms. Prevent the crime in the first place and society is a happier place. http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_124.gif

[SolarMike]

The judge has to have the power to look at circumstances. In the Ontario supreme court decision, the judge noted that the man had no record, the gun wasn't his and he was only posing with it for a photo, AFAIK. Sticking him in jail for something stupid helps no one. He committed no other crime with it. I agree with the judge in that the govts NEW minimum sentencing law is just a load of BS to appeal to their base supporters because there is no data to support it.

If you want to tell whether the gun control laws work at all just compare our per capita gun related crime rate and, for that matter, in Europe where they are shoved in cheek to jowl.

Go ahead, look them up. Then tell me if the crime rates are justifiable and acceptable, nothing to worry about. They have criminology studies for a reason and the stats are there.

[jmac00]

http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_204.gif

[QUOTE]You must not think like a criminal.


And if they report another stolen a month later, and then another a couple of months later, do you think the cops will think there is something funny going on.

apparently not, not even an idiot would not bring that much attention to themselves



And not knowing where the guns are coming from helps? Could you imagine if none of our cars were licensed? Somebody crashes into a school bus load of kids and the driver runs away. The cops come around and they notice it is a blue car. "Well that is going to be a lot of help helping us solve this one."

aaah the automobile comparison. what if the car was stolen? all that does is tell the cops who owned the vehicle. does not help solve who was driving




And the rest are sold by someone who acquired them legally. What is to stop someone that wants to sell guns to any Tom Dick and Hoodie from buying guns legally and then pass them along to unsavory individuals? Oh yeah I forgot.

really? so YOU registered the weapon and sold it to "someone" you have no clue who that is, he sells the weapon to someone else, and that guy sells it to someone else, what if the gun changes hands 5 or 6times in one year? you keep thinking that Law abiding citizens are running around and doing nothing but making straw purchases, we KNOW thats not the case.






We are trying but the damn liberals think differently.



http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TorontoNewHome/20120214/mcguinty-firearm-minimum-120213/



You seem to miss the point of registration. The main reason for it is to remind the owner to be responsible with their firearms. Prevent the crime in the first place and society is a happier place. http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_124.gif

Im not missing the point at all. Citations are listed below

California and NYS has had handgun registration since WWI and it has
not any impact of violent crime rate.

Not in New Zealand. They repealed their gun registration law in the 1980s after
police acknowledged its worthlessness.: Introduction of Firearms User Licensing Instead of Rifle and Shotgun Registration
Under the Arms Act 1983, (Wellington, New Zealand: n.p., 1983)

Not in Canada. More than 20,000 Canadian gun-owners have publicly refused to
register their firearms. Many others (as many as 300,00042) are silently ignoring the law.

• The provincial governments of Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba have dumped
both the administration and the enforcement of all federal gun-control laws right back
into Ottawa's lap, throwing the Canadian government into a paper civil war.

• And all at a cost more than 1,646% the original projected cost43 (the original cost was
estimated at 5% of all police expenditures in Canada44). "The gun registry as it sits
right now is causing law abiding citizens to register their guns but it does nothing to
take one illegal gun off the street or to increase any type of penalty for anybody that
violates any part of the legislation," according to Al Koenig, President, Calgary Police
Association.45 "We have an ongoing gun crisis, including firearms-related homicides
lately in Toronto, and a law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor
helped us solve any of them," according to Toronto police Chief Julian Fantino .46[/U]

[U]• The system is so bad that six Canadian provinces (British Columbia joins Manitoba,
Saskatchewan, Alberta, Nova Scotia, and Ontario) are refusing to prosecute firearm
owners who fail to register.47
• A bill to abolish the registry has been tabled (introduced) in the Canadian Parliament,
which if passed, would eliminate the registry completely.48
• A Saskatchewan MP who endorsed the long gun registry when first proposed has
introduced legislation to abolish it stating that, “[the registry] has not saved one life in
Canada, and it has been a financial sinkhole … absolutely useless in helping locate the
255,000 people who have been prohibited from owning firearms by the courts.”49
Fact: Not in Germany. The Federal Republic of Germany began comprehensive gun
registration in 1972. The government estimated that between 17,000,000 and 20,000,000
guns were to be registered, but only 3,200,000 surfaced, leaving 80% unaccounted for.50

Fact: Not in Boston, Cleveland, or California. These cities and state require registration
of “assault weapons.” The compliance rate in Boston and Cleveland is about 1%.51


42 Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, Evidence number 55, June 5, 2003

43 Ottawa Under Pressure Over Gun Registry Fiasco, David Ljunggren, Reuters, December 4, 2002.

44 When ‘Gun Control’ costs lives, John Lott, Firing Line, September 2001.

45 Calgary Herald, September 1, 2000.

46 Opponents increase pressure to halt Canada's gun control program, Associated Press, Jan 3, 2002.

47 Victoria won't enforce firearms act, Vancouver Sun, June 06, 2003.

48 An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Firearms Act, Received first reading June 19, 2006.

49 $2 billion worth of police will save more lives than one gun registry, Garry Breitkreuz, National Post,
February 27, 2009.

50 Why Gun Registration will Fail, Ted Drane, Australian Shooters Journal, May 1997.

51 The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other
Democracies, David B. Kopel, 231, n.210 (1992).


Myth: Gun registration will help police find suspects
Fact: Registration is required in Hawaii, Chicago, and Washington D.C. Yet there has
not been a single case where registration was instrumental in identifying someone who
committed a crime.52 Criminals very rarely leave their guns at the scene of the crime.
Would-be criminals also virtually never get licenses or register their weapons

Myth: Licensing will keep bad people from obtaining
or using guns
Fact: Not in Canada. Canadian homicide rates were virtually unchanged before and
after gun registration requirements were implemented (151/100,000 people in 1998 and
149/100,000 in 2002).54
Fact: In New York State alone, approximately 100,000 persons are convicted of
unlicensed operation of a motor vehicle each year, and this is probably a small proportion
of the actual number of people who drive without a valid license. Licensing
requirements don’t stop ineligible people from driving, and they do not stop ineligible
people from acquiring guns.

54 Statistics Canada, Oct 1, 2003.



I can do this all day long, how many more facts do you need about gun registration?

FACT: CRIMINALS DON'T REGISTER THERE FIREARMS......DUH!!!!

[ControlsInMT]

Hard to argue with those facts! Nice job!!!

[jmac00]

Hard to argue with those facts! Nice job!!!

thank you, Like I said, I can do this all day. I have tons of Facts and gun laws.

If you own a gun, you better know and understand gun law and how to interact with Law enforcement. Otherwise your going to be in trouble, lots of trouble :cheers:

ok I lied, I have to go earn a living so I can't do this all day :D

[printer2]

apparently not, not even an idiot would not bring that much attention to themselves

Exactly. Now if the not-so-idiot could buy guns and dispose of them without any record that he had them, I would say the deterrent to doing so would be gone. Yes you do seem to get it.



aah the automobile comparison. what if the car was stolen? all that does is tell the cops who owned the vehicle. does not help solve who was driving

The cops would then go to the car owner and ask where the car was last when it was stolen, could then start an investigation of who might have stole it. Haven't you seen any cop shows?




really? so YOU registered the weapon and sold it to "someone" you have no clue who that is, he sells the weapon to someone else, and that guy sells it to someone else, what if the gun changes hands 5 or 6times in one year? you keep thinking that Law abiding citizens are running around and doing nothing but making straw purchases, we KNOW thats not the case.

With no tracking the gun can be sold 6 times and who knows who's hands it will be in by then. With the registry the gun can not just disappear after a couple of purchases.





Im not missing the point at all. Citations are listed below

California and NYS has had handgun registration since WWI and it has
not any impact of violent crime rate.

Not in New Zealand. They repealed their gun registration law in the 1980s after
police acknowledged its worthlessness.: Introduction of Firearms User Licensing Instead of Rifle and Shotgun Registration
Under the Arms Act 1983, (Wellington, New Zealand: n.p., 1983)[/QUOTE]


Not in Canada. More than 20,000 Canadian gun-owners have publicly refused to
register their firearms. Many others (as many as 300,00042) are silently ignoring the law.
Those numbers may make sense to you but knowing our population those numbers look made up.


• The provincial governments of Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba have dumped
both the administration and the enforcement of all federal gun-control laws right back
into Ottawa's lap, throwing the Canadian government into a paper civil war.

Sure, the provinces do not want to pay for it. Why should they?


• And all at a cost more than 1,646% the original projected cost43 (the original cost was
estimated at 5% of all police expenditures in Canada44).

Shoot, I bought a very expensive car and now it is paid off. It is hard to justify the money I spent on it. Even though I only have to put oil and gas in it now I think I will throw the car in the river now even though it is still running fairly well. Well got to go catch my bus.


"The gun registry as it sits
right now is causing law abiding citizens to register their guns but it does nothing to
take one illegal gun off the street or to increase any type of penalty for anybody that
violates any part of the legislation," according to Al Koenig, President, Calgary Police
Association.45 "We have an ongoing gun crisis, including firearms-related homicides
lately in Toronto, and a law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor
helped us solve any of them," according to Toronto police Chief Julian Fantino .46[/U]

And how many police are in favor of keeping it? Also the registry is just one part of our system.


[U]• The system is so bad that six Canadian provinces (British Columbia joins Manitoba,
Saskatchewan, Alberta, Nova Scotia, and Ontario) are refusing to prosecute firearm
owners who fail to register.47

When the federal government gives an amnesty to people who are not registering their guns the provinces are going to enforce the laws? That just sounds silly.


• A bill to abolish the registry has been tabled (introduced) in the Canadian Parliament,
which if passed, would eliminate the registry completely.48
• A Saskatchewan MP who endorsed the long gun registry when first proposed has
introduced legislation to abolish it stating that, “[the registry] has not saved one life in
Canada, and it has been a financial sinkhole … absolutely useless in helping locate the
255,000 people who have been prohibited from owning firearms by the courts.”49

Nothing much relevant here. Also is it not strange that the government could loose 255,000 people? What, these people do not pay their taxes?


Sorry but I got to go, I have work to do.


Fact: Not in Germany. The Federal Republic of Germany began comprehensive gun
registration in 1972. The government estimated that between 17,000,000 and 20,000,000
guns were to be registered, but only 3,200,000 surfaced, leaving 80% unaccounted for.50

Fact: Not in Boston, Cleveland, or California. These cities and state require registration
of “assault weapons.” The compliance rate in Boston and Cleveland is about 1%.51


42 Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, Evidence number 55, June 5, 2003

43 Ottawa Under Pressure Over Gun Registry Fiasco, David Ljunggren, Reuters, December 4, 2002.

44 When ‘Gun Control’ costs lives, John Lott, Firing Line, September 2001.

45 Calgary Herald, September 1, 2000.

46 Opponents increase pressure to halt Canada's gun control program, Associated Press, Jan 3, 2002.

47 Victoria won't enforce firearms act, Vancouver Sun, June 06, 2003.

48 An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Firearms Act, Received first reading June 19, 2006.

49 $2 billion worth of police will save more lives than one gun registry, Garry Breitkreuz, National Post,
February 27, 2009.

50 Why Gun Registration will Fail, Ted Drane, Australian Shooters Journal, May 1997.

51 The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other
Democracies, David B. Kopel, 231, n.210 (1992).


Myth: Gun registration will help police find suspects
Fact: Registration is required in Hawaii, Chicago, and Washington D.C. Yet there has
not been a single case where registration was instrumental in identifying someone who
committed a crime.52 Criminals very rarely leave their guns at the scene of the crime.
Would-be criminals also virtually never get licenses or register their weapons

Myth: Licensing will keep bad people from obtaining
or using guns
Fact: Not in Canada. Canadian homicide rates were virtually unchanged before and
after gun registration requirements were implemented (151/100,000 people in 1998 and
149/100,000 in 2002).54
Fact: In New York State alone, approximately 100,000 persons are convicted of
unlicensed operation of a motor vehicle each year, and this is probably a small proportion
of the actual number of people who drive without a valid license. Licensing
requirements don’t stop ineligible people from driving, and they do not stop ineligible
people from acquiring guns.

54 Statistics Canada, Oct 1, 2003.





FACT: CRIMINALS DON'T REGISTER THERE FIREARMS......DUH!!!![/QUOTE]



I can do this all day long, how many more facts do you need about gun registration?

And I can put out a case for keeping it also. But what is the point? We have better things to do.

[ControlsInMT]

You put opinions Printer. Give me some facts with references so I can check. I am opposed to registering my gun or guns, but am open to listening to opinions...

You stated it was so law-abiding people could remember the "right things to do" or something close to that. Couldn't you just make a mandatory gun safety course that would then give you a permit to own a gun or guns? Doesn't mean you own any, but you legally could. Just like a driver's license....

[jmac00]

And I can put out a case for keeping it also. But what is the point? We have better things to do.

No you can't

even when presented with FACTS, you ignore them. "figures look made up" PROVE IT

I did, wheres your proof that any of the facts I posted are NOT TRUE.

You are the ultimate liberal. facts are meaningless to you, or worse you don't care. You would rather have your government run your life and Lord over you, well thats why your in Canada and we are in the Land of the free :patriot:

[ga-hvac-tech]

Liberals operate from feelings... TRUE conservatives operate from facts.

Wonder which one makes life work?

What amazes me is: When cornered; a liberal will baulk before they cite documentable facts... Yet a TRUE conservative, as JayMac said, can post facts all day long.

Makes it kinda easy to see who understands and who does not.

BTW: There is an endless string of govts prosecuting FORMER gun owners who legally sold their guns... because something was not right with the paperwork. The system does not care WHO they prosecute for a crime... they just want a warm body to pick on... to promote their career.

[SolarMike]

There has to be some reason why our homicide rate is 1.9/100,000 and in the US it is 4.8/100,000 (down from a high of 9.8 in 1979 -1981). I was the highest of the western industrialized countries. I think guns had a bit part of it.

[glennac]

There has to be some reason why our homicide rate is 1.9/100,000 and in the US it is 4.8/100,000 (down from a high of 9.8 in 1979 -1981). I was the highest of the western industrialized countries. I think guns had a bit part of it.

Guns are not it and the answer is simple. Ask who is doing the killing? What ethnic group is responsible? Canada does not have the same mix as in the US. Thank you very much

[ControlsInMT]

There has to be some reason why our homicide rate is 1.9/100,000 and in the US it is 4.8/100,000 (down from a high of 9.8 in 1979 -1981). I was the highest of the western industrialized countries. I think guns had a bit part of it.

You are right, guns are a part of it. Once the honest citizen is fully armed the criminals don't have easy prey! :whistle:

[tunnel_rat]

Registering a gun is no problem for the left, but a simple photo ID is way too much to ask of citizens just to prove they are legal. .....go F, I mean go figure......

[ControlsInMT]

Registering a gun is no problem for the left, but a simple photo ID is way too much to ask of citizens just to prove they are legal. .....go F, I mean go figure......

Yeah what he said!!:beat::ditto:

[ga-hvac-tech]

There has to be some reason why our homicide rate is 1.9/100,000 and in the US it is 4.8/100,000 (down from a high of 9.8 in 1979 -1981). I was the highest of the western industrialized countries. I think guns had a bit part of it.


You are right, guns are a part of it. Once the honest citizen is fully armed the criminals don't have easy prey! :whistle:

Lessee... the logic I hear from liberals goes kinda like this (please correct me if I am wrong): Guns kill folks... so we need to collect the guns.

Now if we follow that logic; then pencils misspell words... so we need to collect all the pencils.

Another logical argument is knives cut folks fingers... so lets collect all the knives.

Oh, and lets not forget all the crimes committed with baseball bats... we should register all the baseball bats and require a permit to have a baseball bat.

Just imagine all the JOBS (worthless govt beaurocracy) we could create by registering and regulating pencils, knives, and baseball bats. Only problem is: Where does the $$$ come from to pay the taxes necessary to fund that waste? Sooner or later there will not be any worker-bees left to tax... what-cha libs gonna do when there are no more folks to shake-down to fund your pet lies?

As one can see: The ONLY absurd thing above is to think guns are any different. When will folks get back that old friend called common sense? Or is he gone to a country where folks appreciate him??? Maybe I should leave and live in that country also... :)

You liberals will not be satisfied until you tax away every penny I will ever earn; and leave me totally defenseless against criminals who you think are just mis-guided kids.

[jmac00]

There has to be some reason why our homicide rate is 1.9/100,000 and in the US it is 4.8/100,000 (down from a high of 9.8 in 1979 -1981). I was the highest of the western industrialized countries. I think guns had a bit part of it.

ooops wrong again?

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html#world

the U.S. is not even in the top ten :gah::gah:


Two thirds of all 1992 US murders were accomplished with firearms. Handguns were used in about half of all murders. Sharp instruments were used in 17% of murders and blunt instruments in about 6%.

Gun control laws are stiffer in Canada, and many claim this accounts for the murder rate being lower in Canada than in the United States. 65% of US homicides were committed with firearms, versus 32% in Canada. However, a large American study indicated that liberalized laws for carrying concealed weapons reduced murder rates in the US by 8.5%. US homicide rates in the year 1900 were an estimated 1 per 100,000 — at a time when anyone of any age could buy a gun. Statistics-gathering may have been less thorough at that time — and few people had the money or interest to buy guns. But American gun supply (including handguns) doubled from the 1973-1992 period, during which homicide rates remained unchanged (WALL STREET JOURNAL, 4-Aug-2000, p.A10).

Politicians in Massachusetts have cited the State's tough gun control laws as the reason for its low murder rates. However, the adjacent states of Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont have some of the least stringent gun control laws in the US, yet the first two have lower murder rates than Massachusetts and the murder rates in Vermont are comparable to those in Massachusetts. Murder rates in Boston increased 50% in 2004 over the previous year, while murder rates in Los Angeles, Miami, Washington and many other major cites saw murder rates decline.

[ga-hvac-tech]

ooops wrong again?

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html#world

the U.S. is not even in the top ten :gah::gah:

Keep the heat on him bro... the only thing liberals understand is being laughed off the stage and out the door of the assembly hall.

OTOH... be sure your car is parked in a safe place... you may find 4 flats... :gah:

[SolarMike]

ooops wrong again?

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html#world

the U.S. is not even in the top ten :gah::gah:

You will note I said "western Industrialized nations". If you want to make comparisons they have to be at least remotely equal countries.

[SolarMike]

Lessee... the logic I hear from liberals goes kinda like this (please correct me if I am wrong): Guns kill folks... so we need to collect the guns.

Now if we follow that logic; then pencils misspell words... so we need to collect all the pencils.

Another logical argument is knives cut folks fingers... so lets collect all the knives.

Oh, and lets not forget all the crimes committed with baseball bats... we should register all the baseball bats and require a permit to have a baseball bat.

Just imagine all the JOBS (worthless govt beaurocracy) we could create by registering and regulating pencils, knives, and baseball bats. Only problem is: Where does the $$$ come from to pay the taxes necessary to fund that waste? Sooner or later there will not be any worker-bees left to tax... what-cha libs gonna do when there are no more folks to shake-down to fund your pet lies?

As one can see: The ONLY absurd thing above is to think guns are any different. When will folks get back that old friend called common sense? Or is he gone to a country where folks appreciate him??? Maybe I should leave and live in that country also... :)

You liberals will not be satisfied until you tax away every penny I will ever earn; and leave me totally defenseless against criminals who you think are just mis-guided kids.

Then come up with another reason...I'm listening.....

[ga-hvac-tech]

Then come up with another reason...I'm listening.....

Honestly... I have no idea what you are asking... Please be more specific (less liberal... :grin2: )... THX.

[jmac00]

You will note I said "western Industrialized nations". If you want to make comparisons they have to be at least remotely equal countries.

ok, you would be correct, the U.S. does have the highest MURDER rate of any industrialized country. However with the number of guns per thousand it stands to reason.

I don't suppose you want to guess who is second and third?


The United States when compared to other developed nations with more stringent gun laws. The following numbers are based on firearm homicide per 100,000 people.

United States-39% of households possess firearms and there is a 3.72 firearm homicide rate.

Italy-16% of households contain guns and there is a 1.66 firearm homicide rate.

Canada-30% of households contain guns and there is a .76 firearm homicide rate.

Australia-20% of households contain guns and there is a .44 firearm homicide rate.

England/Wales-5% of households contain guns and there is a .11 firearm homicide rate.

Switzerland-28% of households contain guns and there is a ..58 firearm homicide rate.

[SolarMike]

Sure, I know we have lots of guns too. Not as many as the US and of a different type but that wasn't the question.

The American murder rate is at least twice ours and if you don't think guns are an issue, I would like to know what you think the issue actually is? i had been thinking about this for years but haven't had a chance to ask Americans until now.

You look at Switzerland which has a pretty high rate of gun ownership but a pretty low homicide rate. To me, there is a big discrepancy here. If it is not the gun, what is it. I have my ideas but I would like to hear yours.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Just my :.02:...

The USA seems consumed with litigation... which does not end with a judgement. IMO we need for justice to become; the innocent are avenged... and the guilty are punished HARD.

Putting FEAR of punishment into the minds of criminals would IMO go a long way to lowering crime in the USA.

Then again; the more citizens who are ARMED... will put as much fear in criminals as anything. Here is the way it works:

A perp decides he is gonna take his gun (illegally bought on the street, from someone that smuggled it into the USA... it was NEVER registered anywhere); and rob the folks at this high end restaurant. Perp sneaks in through the kitchen and dresses as a waiter (should be obvious, he has not shaven in a week). Perp heads out on the floor of the restaurant with a towel over his arm, hiding his gun under the towel.
Now here is how it goes down in BIG US cities where guns are illegal:
Perp KNOWS he is safe, 'cause guns are illegal... and if someone is carrying illegally... the cops will bust then and let the perp go (yes, it happens this way most of the time... the cops take the easy way out). Perp walks around the restaurant once, finds the table with the most jewelry on the women, and stops next to the most important looking babe. The gun is placed into her back, and the command to place all the jewelry 'QUIETLY' into the bag goes out. In a few minutes the perp leaves through the kitchen. The jewelry is gone for good, the perp is gone to never be caught, and ALL our insurance rates go up a little because of higher losses.
Now here is how it goes down in a city where CCW permits are legal and common:
An alert and observant customer (former special forces dude who made it rich in the stock market) notes the perp and watches... Soon it is clear what is about to go down.
The SF guy quietly gets the attention of his favourite waiter and explains what is going down... the waiter nods and goes to call the cops. The SF guy gets up as if he is headed towards the restroom; then comes back from the hallway to place himself behind the perp. Next thing the perp knows... there is the business end of a 1911 stuck in his ribs. The SF guys whispers in the perp's ears... "Forget the piece or you are gonna miss the 72 virgins, 'cause the bullet in my gun has pork fat ALL over it".
SF guy leads the perp into the kitchen, where he is tied up and awaits the cops. Potential crime and potential killing avoided.

Now if I were a criminal... which town and restaurant would I hit? Of COURSE... the eatery in the city which BANNED guns. It is a LOT safer to do crime when I KNOW nobody can defend themselves.
And which city/restaurant will I as a criminal avoid: Of COURSE the one where lots of dudes and duddets are armed and willing to make life VERY difficult for my little criminal enterprise.
This folks, is what is called COMMON SENSE. Do we still have it in America?
The answer is; YES, in red states... yet NO in blue states. Go figure.

Now I have a question for you canucks: Following the definition of common sense above... do you have it north of my border?

[jmac00]

Sure, I know we have lots of guns too. Not as many as the US and of a different type but that wasn't the question.

The American murder rate is at least twice ours and if you don't think guns are an issue, I would like to know what you think the issue actually is? i had been thinking about this for years but haven't had a chance to ask Americans until now.

You look at Switzerland which has a pretty high rate of gun ownership but a pretty low homicide rate. To me, there is a big discrepancy here. If it is not the gun, what is it. I have my ideas but I would like to hear yours.

ok now we are completely off topic, but I'll give it a shot (hehe)

so lets look at murder rates around the world:


According to the U.N., as of 2005,Scotland was the most violent country in the
developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted
than in America.
Violent crime there has doubled over the last 20years. 3% of Scots had been victims of assault compared with 1.2% in America.288

Scotland tops list of world's most violent countries, The Times, September 19, 2005



“We don’t have many guns as the United States, but we use them more.”293 [I]Chocolates for guns? Brazil targets gun violence, Rubem César Fernandes, executive secretary of Viva
Rio, a nongovernmental agency that studies urban crime, Christian Science Monitor, August 10, 1999

Brazil has mandatory licensing, registration and maximum personal ownership quotas. It now bans any new sales to private citizens. The homicide rate is
three (3) times higher
than the U.S.294
294 Homicide trends in the United States, U.S. data: Bureau of Justice Statistics, September, 2004. Brazil
data: Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, 2005.


In Canada around 1920, before there was any form of gun control, their homicide rate was 7% of the U.S rate. By 1986, and after significant gun control legislation,
Canada’s homicide rate was 35% of the U.S. rate – a significant increase. 295 In 2003,
Canada had a violent crime rate more than double that of the U.S. (963 vs. 475 per 100,000

295 Targeting Guns, Gary Kleck, Aldine Transaction, 1997, at 360.
296 Juristat: Crime Statistics in Canada, 2004 and FBI Uniform Crime Statistics online.

actually, Switzerland's murder rate is about the same as England and Wales. But the Swiss do have the most lenient gun law in Europe.

we can not compare the U.S. to UK due to the way the UK reports crime. The UK only reports crime AFTER a final disposition (guilty or acquittal)


CLEARLY America is NOT the most dangerous place to live. But why do we have such a murder rate? Economics, Gangs? there are a variety of socioeconomic reasons. But as I have demonstrated, there are far worse places with much stricter gun laws to live

[jmac00]

Just my :.02:...

The USA seems consumed with litigation... which does not end with a judgement. IMO we need for justice to become; the innocent are avenged... and the guilty are punished HARD.

Putting FEAR of punishment into the minds of criminals would IMO go a long way to lowering crime in the USA.

it has been proven (although I can't find the article) that criminals fear only one thing.

Criminals DO NOT FEAR: Police, Dogs or the average citizen.

what scares the begezzus out of a criminal is an ARMED citizen

[ga-hvac-tech]

it has been proven (although I can't find the article) that criminals fear only one thing.

Criminals DO NOT FEAR: Police, Dogs or the average citizen.

what scares the begezzus out of a criminal is an ARMED citizen

See my post #36 above... :)

[jmac00]

See my post #36 above... :)

:cheers:

[SolarMike]

it has been proven (although I can't find the article) that criminals fear only one thing.

Criminals DO NOT FEAR: Police, Dogs or the average citizen.

what scares the begezzus out of a criminal is an ARMED citizen

Well , criminals do not fear incarceration. There are like 19 year old male drivers....invincible, believing their plan (what ever that is) is fool proof and they will never get caught.

The idea of everyone being armed and therefore law abiding people being safer is just silly. With the rate of jealous husbands, drunk people, angry people in a fender bender, etc, etc, you can easily imagine that tempers will get the best of a lot more people, a lot faster. You might have a hand gun but can you guarantee the guy beside you doesn't panic (as people do all the time....even the cops, but they won't admit it)

Men...act first....think later.....happens far too often.

[jmac00]

Every year, people in the United States use guns to defend themselves against
criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times – more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13
seconds.113 Of these instances, 15.6% of the people using firearms defensively stated
that they "almost certainly" saved their lives by doing so.
Firearms are used 60 times more often to protect lives than to take lives.


The number of times per year an American uses a firearm to deter a home invasion
alone is 498,000.114

In 83.5% (2,087,500) of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either
threatened or used force first, proving that guns are very well suited for self-defense

The rate of defensive
gun use (DGU) is six times
that of criminal gun us 115

Of the 2,500,000 times citizens use guns to defend themselves, 92% merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers.
Less than 8% of the time does a citizen wound his or her attacker, and in
less than one in a thousand instances is the attacker
killed.116


113 Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Fall 1995,
114 Estimating intruder-related firearm retrievals in U.S. households, 1994. Robin M. Ikeda , Violence and
Victims, Winter 1997
115 Crime statistics: Bureau of Justice Statistics - National Crime Victimization Survey (2005). DGU
statistics: Targeting Guns, Kleck (average of 15 major surveys where DGUs were reported)
116 Targeting Guns, Kleck, from the National Self-Defense Survey, 1995


You should read Dr. John Lotts Book "More Guns-Less Crime" it's real eye-opener

[jmac00]

ooops found this to


After the implementation of Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibiting handgun
possession for protection, the “breaking and entering” crime rate rose 25%, surpassing
the American rate.121

121 Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States, Canada and England and Wales, Pat
Mayhew , National Institute of Justice., Wash., D.C., 1987

[SolarMike]

Then why is it that there are a lot of places you just shouldn't walk in many cities in the US? My wife was at a conference in Denver and she wanted to go for a walk at night, in a good area. The hotel people were horrified and warned her not to go. Denver?

The same is true of almost city in the US but very few places in Canada and despite 400 million people in Europe (the size of Texas + a bit), there are few places there I would put in the same class (Naples, parts of Glasgow, small parts of London and Paris are ones I can think of).

So while your stats say something they cannot speak the whole truth. I am still trying to figure out how guns have a positive effect.

[jmac00]

Then why is it that there are a lot of places you just shouldn't walk in many cities in the US? My wife was at a conference in Denver and she wanted to go for a walk at night, in a good area. The hotel people were horrified and warned her not to go. Denver?

The same is true of almost city in the US but very few places in Canada and despite 400 million people in Europe (the size of Texas + a bit), there are few places there I would put in the same class (Naples, parts of Glasgow, small parts of London and Paris are ones I can think of).

So while your stats say something they cannot speak the whole truth. I am still trying to figure out how guns have a positive effect.


really? Lets just talk about Toronto, your telling us that the ENTIRE city of Toronto is completely safe to walk through? Even your Capital has dangerous areas that most folks avoid. EVERY LARGE CITY has it's poor, run down sections.

However, if you were to forced to walk through an unsavory part of town with known criminal activity, would you rather be armed, or unarmed

[ControlsInMT]

Hey Solar, you said you had some ideas on the issue. Let's hear them.

I look at all of these numbers and one thing comes to mind. Referencing how UK reports their crimes are we really comparing apples to apples? We, in the US, have news reporters everywhere, most of them liberal. These are the same people that are reporting these crimes. Do you honestly believe the murder rate in Brazil is that low? How many people do drug cartels kill that never get reported?

[jmac00]

Fact: Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is fundamentally flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a
crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly under counting the amount of
gun crime there.306

To make matters worse, British law enforcement has been exposed
for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve
tourism.307

306 Fear in Britain, Gallant, Hills, Kopel, Independence Institute, July 18, 2000.
307 Crime Figures a Sham, Say Police, Daily Telegraph, April 1, 1996.


Gun control in Australia is curbing crime
Fact: Crime has been rising since enacting a sweeping ban on private gun ownership. In the first two years after Australian gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal
firearms, government statistics showed a dramatic increase in criminal activity.316 In
2001-2002, homicides were up another 20%.317
From the inception of firearm confiscation to March 27, 2000, the numbers are:
• Firearm-related murders were up 19%
• Armed robberies were up 69%
• Home invasions were up 21%

The sad part is that in the 15 years before the national gun confiscation:
• Firearm-related homicides dropped nearly 66%
• Firearm-related deaths fell 50%

316 Crime and Justice - Crimes Recorded by Police, Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2000.
317 Report #46: Homicide in Australia, 2001-2002, Australian Institute of Criminology, April 2003.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Well , criminals do not fear incarceration. There are like 19 year old male drivers....invincible, believing their plan (what ever that is) is fool proof and they will never get caught.

The idea of everyone being armed and therefore law abiding people being safer is just silly. With the rate of jealous husbands, drunk people, angry people in a fender bender, etc, etc, you can easily imagine that tempers will get the best of a lot more people, a lot faster. You might have a hand gun but can you guarantee the guy beside you doesn't panic (as people do all the time....even the cops, but they won't admit it)

Men...act first....think later.....happens far too often.

Sorry, but the simple fact of countries WITH guns having lower crime destroys your argument.

Perhaps it would make more folks grow up and take responsibility for their thoughts and actions... like goofy liberals who think they are above the rules... :whistle:

NOW I understand why liberals do not like guns... it would take away their implied advantage over honest working working folks.

[SolarMike]

Hey Solar, you said you had some ideas on the issue. Let's hear them.

I look at all of these numbers and one thing comes to mind. Referencing how UK reports their crimes are we really comparing apples to apples? We, in the US, have news reporters everywhere, most of them liberal. These are the same people that are reporting these crimes. Do you honestly believe the murder rate in Brazil is that low? How many people do drug cartels kill that never get reported?

The murder rate and violent crime rate in general in Brazil is quite. Another anecdote: my wife was at a conference in a major coast resort city (cannot remember the name). She looked out of a tent where everyone was learning latin dancing and in the distance she saw a ring of solders surrounding the place to keep it safe. I have Brazilian friends who say it can be very tough there.

Britain has its share of Rupert murdock owned papers too so there is no shortage of opposite opinions.

[printer2]

No you can't

even when presented with FACTS, you ignore them. "figures look made up" PROVE IT

I did, wheres your proof that any of the facts I posted are NOT TRUE.

You are the ultimate liberal. facts are meaningless to you, or worse you don't care. You would rather have your government run your life and Lord over you, well thats why your in Canada and we are in the Land of the free :patriot:

Sorry, don't have time. As you know from my past posts, I have no problem researching a topic and putting a case together. This one would take too much time and in the end everyone will just ignore it anyway. I have other pressing duties and my health is slowing me down.

Ultimate liberal? Hah, see how much you actually catch from my posts. Just because I see some merit in the concept, but have stated in the past I do not think the gains are worth the effort, all of the sudden I am enemy #1. And how has the government having my guns registered effected me in any way? How has the government run my life by having an entry in a computer somewhere?

I think you may be a little full of yourself being from the land of the free. From what I have read about you guys and the government you have I would think I have more freedom here.

[printer2]

NOW I understand why liberals do not like guns... it would take away their implied advantage over honest working working folks.

I like guns. Mind you my Liberal membership might need renewing.

[jmac00]

Sorry, don't have time. As you know from my past posts, I have no problem researching a topic and putting a case together. This one would take too much time and in the end everyone will just ignore it anyway. I have other pressing duties and my health is slowing me down.

Ultimate liberal? Hah, see how much you actually catch from my posts. Just because I see some merit in the concept, but have stated in the past I do not think the gains are worth the effort, all of the sudden I am enemy #1. And how has the government having my guns registered effected me in any way? How has the government run my life by having an entry in a computer somewhere?

I think you may be a little full of yourself being from the land of the free. From what I have read about you guys and the government you have I would think I have more freedom here.


BWHAHAHAHAHA , Ya right

[ControlsInMT]

Hey Solar, just because they report low murder rates does not mean all murders are reported.

So what are your other options you had mentioned earlier?