No panning allowed....

[cr500]

Only top quality work allowed on this house! A 4 mil+ house, 12k sq.ft., 7 zones [they wanted to do 4]. We went around and around on design elements. "Baseboard is cheap, all forced air". The GC/whip wanted all the stackheads high on the walls, no ceiling boxes anywhere and No large return grilles! Many changes later we are nearing the end and the whip looks at cutouts in the bottom plate of a wall and remarks that they need to be patched shut. I say they're return openings and he says "where's the duct?". I say "the bay IS the duct". he says "nope, gotta be metal" I say "Why?". He says "That's only done on cheap houses, not on a house like this." I ask what functional benefit there is-or is it purely aesthetic during construction. He says it's cheap. He points at a 6" oval supply and says "put that in". I explain how they've already cut our return area to the limit and we can't lose any cross sectional area, but i can pan it. He says OK. Found out the next day we had a "misunderstanding". Panning is not OK-looks cheap-so now we will rip out the panning and install 14"x5" duct, hopefully it will not look "cheap"...
This is a view from about midway of the 1st flr. center hall.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/CR500/P1012176.jpg

This is our "cheap" panning-note those "high-end" electrical outlet boxes...
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/CR500/P1012174.jpg

more cheap panning
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/CR500/P1012175.jpg

Now for some "Quality work" elsewhere about the house.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/CR500/P1012187.jpg

For those who may not be familiar with TGI construction rules, cutting, notching, drilling or otherwise molesting the top or bottom rail is Strictly Prohibited. Also forbidden are any holes within 12" of any load bearing support, from there hole size varies with span, web height and distance from support.
more of the same...
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/CR500/P1012186.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/CR500/P1012182.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/CR500/P1012180.jpg
There's many more, if this passes framing inpection i'll be disappointed.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/CR500/P1012196.jpg

[amickracing]

Wow.... scary stuff! The bad thing is some poor soul is going to give up a lot of thier hard earned money to by a house that was hacked together.

[cr500]

Yeah, I really think our return method issue is trivial compared to the plumbers hatchet work...

[seatonheating]

Typical Bull-sheet, god I hate that crap. Builders should go "F" themselves, can't stand those bastards.......



Sorry mods, just tired of those guys!

[craig1]

I think you better leave that panning in there. the way those TGIs have been hacked up, the panning may now be load bearing structural material. pull one nail out of it and the whole house might collapse

[Dof3]

Actually the framers are as much to blame as the plumbers. They should look at the print and move floor joists or header where plumbing walls should be. They should also use 2x6 walls for plumbing walls.

[amickracing]

Originally posted by Dof3
They should look at the print and move floor joists or header where plumbing walls should be. They should also use 2x6 walls for plumbing walls.

Around here some builders are great for doing those very things. Except it seems they move plumbing walls over joists, especially with a 2x6 wall lol.

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by seatonheating
Typical Bull-sheet, god I hate that crap. Builders should go "F" themselves, can't stand those bastards.......

Heh, I feel the same. We don't do new construction unless its an existing customer that is having a new house built. Even then, we make it very clear that we are working for the home owner and not the builder. ;)

[cr500]

Originally posted by Dof3
Actually the framers are as much to blame as the plumbers. They should look at the print and move floor joists or header where plumbing walls should be. They should also use 2x6 walls for plumbing walls.

Actually the architect/designer are to blame, they supplied a framing print with nothing specific regarding equipment-only general locations of fixtures. Then during construction the "designer" changed the room layout in several cases, moving bathrooms from one corner of a bedroom to another. I spoke with the framer and he told me how he caught and corrected some big F-ups like load bearing walls on the 2nd floor with no support below. I pionted out plumber hackery to the whip and his response was "this house is so overbuilt that'll never matter". It wont matter 'till the rock starts crack'in! The same plumber buried that plastic gas service pipe in the basement slab to tie the 2 equipment rooms together [that failed insp.] and now has to get the gas pressure raised and install regs. on the furnaces because Btu's total out at 1.3 million [whole house] and he ran 1 1/2" pipe from the meter. I could go on but I gotta say it's nice to get some reassurance from you guys that i'm not being too critical.

[core]

Originally posted by cr500
Yeah, I really think our return method issue is trivial compared to the plumbers hatchet work...



Well that’s an overstatement!!

Does your boss really think that return will perform well? It doesn’t even look like you cut the bottom floor plate out all the way on those panned bays!!

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1187/pannedbay8tn.jpg

As is you have an Aspect Ratio on that panned bay of 4.50 to 1 if those are 16 on center.
That will increase your friction loss, but then again what would you expect from Hacks.

Looks really bad and the work represents your company.

Core

[dec]

I guess my question would be.......did they give you a change order in writing that they are paying for ducting instead of proposed panning of wall studd spaces????? If not I can see one of those wars of them saying.....oh dont worry about it, we have to keep the owners happy. YA like anything is coming out of their pockets. Seems like the more expensive the house the more they try to screw ya, being a lot of people that have that kind of money made it by screwing others. You know the......oh your just trying to screw me because I have money.

You better have something in writing unless you plan on changing that return ducting for free.


12" of any load bearing support ????????? I was under the impression of 5', at least for anything the size of a 6" pipe.

[Edited by dec on 04-28-2006 at 05:09 PM]

[seatonheating]

Originally posted by core

Originally posted by cr500
Yeah, I really think our return method issue is trivial compared to the plumbers hatchet work...



Well that’s an overstatement!!

Does your boss really think that return will perform well? It doesn’t even look like you cut the bottom floor plate out all the way on those panned bays!!

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1187/pannedbay8tn.jpg

As is you have an Aspect Ratio on that panned bay of 4.50 to 1 if those are 16 on center.
That will increase your friction loss, but then again what would you expect from Hacks.

Looks really bad and the work represents your company.

Core


Hey, don't be so hard on him! I think those are low-wall returns, what you are looking at is the bottom of the return I think.

[core]

Originally posted by seatonheating

Hey, don't be so hard on him! I think those are low-wall returns, what you are looking at is the bottom of the return I think.

Your taking a guess and, its a bad one.

Core

[core]

Originally posted by core
[QUOTE]Originally posted by seatonheating

Hey, don't be so hard on him! I think those are low-wall returns, what you are looking at is the bottom of the return I think.

Mind you this is the Wall of Shame


Core

[cr500]

Originally posted by dec
I guess my question would be.......did they give you a change order in writing that they are paying for ducting instead of proposed panning of wall studd spaces????? If not I can see one of those wars of them saying.....oh dont worry about it, we have to keep the owners happy. YA like anything is coming out of their pockets. Seems like the more expensive the house the more they try to screw ya, being a lot of people that have that kind of money made it by screwing others. You know the......oh your just trying to screw me because I have money.

You better have something in writing unless you plan on changing that return ducting for free.


12" of any load bearing support ????????? I was under the impression of 5', at least for anything the size of a 6" pipe.

[Edited by dec on 04-28-2006 at 05:09 PM]

For the GP TGI's it's 12" for the smallest hole [like 1/2" for electric]. the walls are 2x6 and I sawzalled all but 1/4" on each side because that's what the GC spec'd. I measured the return area and it's adequate [8 returns total, 14x5 average restriction]. I also ran the blower and got ~500 FPM or better at all supplies and 200 FPM or less at the return restriction.
To CORE; I appreciate your criticism, but I would not have posted in the WOS if I was happy with what I was being compelled to do! Bottom line: The system will work, the owner has paid for changes and we have no performance issues-only aesthetic items that will never be seen again once the rockers arrive...

[cr500]

Originally posted by seatonheating

Originally posted by core

Originally posted by cr500
Yeah, I really think our return method issue is trivial compared to the plumbers hatchet work...



Well that’s an overstatement!!

Does your boss really think that return will perform well? It doesn’t even look like you cut the bottom floor plate out all the way on those panned bays!!

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1187/pannedbay8tn.jpg

As is you have an Aspect Ratio on that panned bay of 4.50 to 1 if those are 16 on center.
That will increase your friction loss, but then again what would you expect from Hacks.

Looks really bad and the work represents your company.

Core


Hey, don't be so hard on him! I think those are low-wall returns, what you are looking at is the bottom of the return I think.

You are correct that is the bottom of a return, there are 8 such returns in 2 hallways and 2 adjacent rooms. We had a hard time claiming the space needed but we told the GC if we couldn't achieve adequate return area he would have to sign off on it...

[davidr]

Originally posted by core

Originally posted by cr500
Yeah, I really think our return method issue is trivial compared to the plumbers hatchet work...



Well that’s an overstatement!!

Does your boss really think that return will perform well? It doesn’t even look like you cut the bottom floor plate out all the way on those panned bays!!

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1187/pannedbay8tn.jpg

As is you have an Aspect Ratio on that panned bay of 4.50 to 1 if those are 16 on center.
That will increase your friction loss, but then again what would you expect from Hacks.

Looks really bad and the work represents your company.

Core


And people wonder why HVAC systems installed in new construction rarely operate as designed.

When builders begin to realize that required free area is not an option they will start to give contractors what they need to put the ducts in properly.

Unfortunately sometimes the design of these chopped up houses will win & you have to do what you can to get airflow back to that fan.