What would you do?

[R12rules]

the employer gets an attitude about you, he orders you off his property. He refuses to give you justly due wages. He seizes your entire tool and personal property inside the van.
He refuses to negotiate during phone conversations or in person visits to his office.

The state labor office wont get involved. The sherrif wont do a thing.
The Marshal's office is no use.
The attorney you were referred to wont even return your phone calls.


It gets worse, but I dont want this to be a long post.


Now ... what would you do?

[coolwhip]

File a police report saying he stole your tools and take him to small claims court.

[1972torino]

what the heck did you do?

[Edited by 1972torino on 04-25-2006 at 04:26 PM]

[coolwhip]

R12, lay it out there and tell us what happened.

[tinner73]

time to fight.

[daytonafan]

Join the Union, that will never happen to you.

[dec]

HUMMMM ... ya I would think there is more to the story then your telling us. Why did he turn that way ? I only had it happen with one employee that it turned ugly. Looking back at it I guess I should have just blew it off at the begining and given him his tools and droped it. Main thing was I had paid for all the tools at that time and all he really owned was the pouch and belt. Now he had gotten an advance just before that being he hadnt put anything away and being he was having girl problems he asked for the advance. Ok no problem but next thing I know he is moving and Im out of advance and he wants his tool...... thats my tools. Well after argueing a couple times when he showed up, he promised to pay me back later. I knew it was a no win situation so I gave him the tools and never saw him again. IT was just a few pair of snips, hammer, dividers hand tongs ,maybe a few other things. Back them maybe $100 or so. Now if it had been a service man with meters and such that would have been a differant story. That was the last of ever supplying hand tools.


Only thing is when it turns ugly there is always a reason. I dont think most owners would make things ugly unless they had a good reason. I would be afraid of doing anything illegal in as far as keeping tools that belonged to an employee quiting. I know some bosses may be an ass if an employee was quiting and taking customers with him but being I had never had that happen ,Im not one to coment on that one.



OK TELL US .....WHAT DID YOU DO TO PISS HIM OFF ???????

[Edited by dec on 04-25-2006 at 11:12 PM]

[tinner73]

Originally posted by daytonafan
Join the Union, that will never happen to you.
true...but neither here nor there.

[R12rules]

I didnt want this to get into a "vent" right away ... I have pretty much remained calm. Most of the time anyway.

Ya see, I have had "Bigger Fish to Fry" right now than to worry over what some guy said or did to me.


My wife is seriously ill. She was recently released from the hospital.
During the time she was in, it was my son's birthday. And let me tell you this ... birthdays for this guy are special to him! :)
Even though he's no longer "a kid", he doesnt let anyone forget when his big day is comming.

So on that big day, I'm five hundred miles away, there's 4 tornado's touching down IN TOWN and his step mom is in the hospital!
And THAT is the day my employer chooses to fire me, seize my tools as well as all personal items in and on the van AND send me walking ... down a country road ... out in the middle of NO-WHERE!

oh ... and did I mention .... he withheld all monies owed me.

So .... as you can imagine ... I had other things on my mind the day he fired me.


You ask what reason(s) he gave for letting me go.

Well ... he called me every name in the book, except a White Man!
Anything and everything he could have said to me ... he said it ALL!!!
And I just sat there.

When I work for anyone, I look for the long haul, not just the moment.
I like to stay long term. However ... not everyone else feels this way so when things get difficult, they make changes flippantly.
And often times an employer will make stupid decisions.


This was such an employer.

He hires people he can manipulate and hold underneath his thumb.
Who told me this? A staff member of the State Representative's office.
I'm not a psychiatrist, but this guy could sure use one!!!


He makes every other employer I have ever had ... look like a boy scout by comparison.



a few weeks ago, about a week or so into the new assignment, I was ordered to make repairs to a steel door at a restaurant in Monroe.
This was a crucial part of the business's security.

It had failed and been "fixed" four times previous the past twelve months. FOUR TIMES!!!

I told the boss I could fix it, but I wouldnt do a jerry-rig job on it. If I was given the assignment, "it would withstand a direct frontal assault" :D

I told him I would need to purchase a small wire feed welder. It could come out of my paycheck in payroll deductions, plural.
He replied that I would NOT need to be responsible for re-imbursement for the equipment needed for this project.

I had 20 hours into the purchase of steel, the welder, the clamps, the drive time to and from plus the actual work performed on site. This was over a two day period and included having to pull off and go run a couple of service calls out of the area.

I fixed that sucker better than new.
She dont flex no more!

Co-workers saw and said it was a fine fix for what I had to work with.
Three management personnell from the restaurant were pleased with the efforts I took on their behalf!


In the end, the boss was upset over the purchase of the supplies and equipment needed in order to facilitate this project.
And then he ordered me to employ those very same tools & equipment on yet another project.
This was was simply the repair of a fan motor bracket at another location.

And he told me ahead of time he already had ideas on how to make money by having a man with a wire feed welder on his truck.
So it wasnt like this was a one time use of the supplies.


The total bill for supplies and materials came to $1200, he said.
The welder itself was half. A Lincoln.
Much of the balance could have been returned as un-used supplies: bolts, screws, anchors, etc.


I make enough money that I could have paid him thru payroll deductions, had he been willing to go that route.


Did he know I was going to spend his money on a wire feed welder, in advance of my doing so? Yes he did.
He instructed me to check with Graingers BEFORE I was told to look elsewhere.
Plus, he was swamped with calls. He is the type that when he is out of the office, he's got a cell phone stuck to the side of his face for hour after hour!
So he's not exactely the easiest guy to have a sit down conversation with.


He said he wanted the project done and I told him I was the man to do it.
I told him I was going to need a welder and did he have a preferance as to where to buy it. Grainger's was out of stock on their 135 Miller, 115 volt models.
So I went to another account and picked it up there.

I told the boss I was willing and able to return most of the materials/ tools if he wanted that done.
But no matter what he said to me, he never gave me the receipts back to facilitate such.
So the welder rode in the back of my van, until such time as he ordered me to use it the next time, a few days later.

And a week after that, he grew ugly.

I'd be deleted my the MODS if I used the language or even the terms this guy said to me, prior to firing me on the 20th.



There's more.
He never made clear his pay scale. I simply told the man, in writting, what I expected and went from there.
He never paid me on the first scheduled pay day.
And when the second pay day came around, I was yet not paid.

I started in March, the last Tuesday. I was never given anything until the tenth of THIS MONTH!

And when I figured out the hours I put in and the small amount of money he was giving me ... I was embarrassed to even be there!

Every single time I tried to sit down with him and discuss his methodology of firguring out how to pay me ... he avoided the subject like the plague!

He just said that "we need to sit down and talk about that".


I have NEVER had such a problem with an employer before!

After much ado, he phoned me early Monday morning. He wanted to have me return to work for him. He asked under what terms I would return.

I told him four-ten hour days, consecutive, no Sundays.
$20 an hour.

Give me X amount for back wages and the welder in question and we'll call it even.


What he said in response was not repeatable in mixed company.


I'd been working the hours and schedule of a Market Man.

And let me say this ... I loved the area, the customers and even the work.
And I was managing to maintain myself even though my age and the miles traveled were extreme.

[evildberg]

Does the non-union sector seriously have to buy their own tools to do work for the COMPANY and make profits for the COMPANY?

[pabull]

Originally posted by R12rules
the employer gets an attitude about you, he orders you off his property. He refuses to give you justly due wages. He seizes your entire tool and personal property inside the van.
He refuses to negotiate during phone conversations or in person visits to his office.

The state labor office wont get involved. The sherrif wont do a thing.
The Marshal's office is no use.
The attorney you were referred to wont even return your phone calls.


It gets worse, but I dont want this to be a long post.


Now ... what would you do?
R12, I know you are a man of God. All kidding aside. I would go to his office and introduce your foot to his ass. JMHO... :D

[hudson73]

Is this what I have to look foward to?

[heavenlyair]

r-12 is this a mom and pop company.

[davenet]

R12, what are you doing for work? are you still in Austin area? We at Fox Service Copmpany could use a man with integrity.

[tinner73]

Originally posted by hudson73
Is this what I have to look foward to?

depends on your career path.;)

[dec]

I can relate to going to work without really knowing what I was getting paid. One company I went to work for when I was starting out said they wanted to see what I could do so I worked a few days on a comercial building putting in the underground ducting without a set price I was being paid. Now after about three days I told him I needed to know what I was getting paid. When he told me I was shocked, I told him I wouldnt be able to work for that amount. He just shrugged and walked off. The forman of the job from our shop walked over and asked what was up, I told him what the boss said he was going to pay and that there was no way I was working for that . He asked how much I want and I told him, he told me hang on , let him talk to him. He went over and had a chat with the boss. He came back and said you got it.

Now from that experiance I can see where this can happen. I really dont have an answer to how you avoid it unless you throw out an amount that is the least you will work for and the boss is honest enough to tell you up front wether he is even willing to pay in that price range if you prove you are worth it. Now as far as the little residental, small comercial mom an pop shop, I dont think most of them will pay a wage that a comercial tinner is going to expect. Now im saying tinner being that the type work you mentioned but as far as a service tech I cant see why they could pay it but Im guessing this might be a shop thats just not doing enough or charging enough to pay those rates... who knows he may just be a cheap A$$


Im just guessing there is more to this then meets the eye........doesnt add up keeping the tools unless he is talking the welder. That owner would know thats going to cut his throat if he did. doesnt add up

[Edited by dec on 04-26-2006 at 10:42 PM]

[Shophound]

R12, all due respect, I've been on this board going three years now, and you seem to go through more jobs than a Hummer does gasoline.

Maybe it's nothing more than a bad string of employers. Something in the water in the Austin area? Or maybe it's something else...

You're a man of faith...maybe God's tryin' to tell you somethin'?

[R12rules]

Originally posted by pabull

Originally posted by R12rules
the employer gets an attitude about you, he orders you off his property. He refuses to give you justly due wages. He seizes your entire tool and personal property inside the van.
He refuses to negotiate during phone conversations or in person visits to his office.

Now ... what would you do?
R12, I know you are a man of God. All kidding aside. I would go to his office and introduce your foot to his ass. JMHO... :D

I toold many people that the reason the Hatfield & McKoys began their fued was due to the same type of stuff going on way back then!
There needs to be guidelines, paradigms in order to set us apart as "Civilized" versus like animals.
But few had much to say other than to hire a lawyer.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by hudson73
Is this what I have to look foward to?

Hudson, no ... this is NOT the norm in our industry!

And that is part of the reason I poisted it here. This is EXTREMLY abnormal!!!


We need to all be guarded against this type of shop owner.


This is a warning on how NOT to run a business.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by heavenlyair
r-12 is this a mom and pop company.

Heavy, Yes, this is a small operation. Five trucks plus the owner who runs around with a cell phone in his ear and a pick up truck with a few tools in the back side.

No brick and mortar. No shop. Nothing like a regular outfit would have.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by davenet
R12, what are you doing for work? are you still in Austin area? We at Fox Service Copmpany could use a man with integrity.

Dave, I applied at Fox via Hvac-Agent. No responce.


I worked for Charlie Hard a few years ago. I was in Div 7, Special Services.

No training, no support from the supervisor.
My hours dropped from fifty the first week to forty five then forty then continued to decline until I ended up sitting in the van for eight hours a day and working two or three.

Eighteen hours a week after December was NOT my idea of "making a living" in the trade.


Walter Bishop told me he'd look into the matter and straighten things out.

He told me the training came via the other men on the crew, "if they liked me"... and they wished to share what they knew about the special equipment we were working on.

Hot dog grills, coffee grinders, coffee makers, cappochino machines, Slurpee machines, post-mix, etc.

Heck, the ice makers, A/C systems and walk in units at the 7-11's were a piece of cake.

I loved it there. I just couldnt support a family on eighteen hours a week.

I regretted ever leaving. But it was NOT my choice to do so.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by dec
I'm guessing this might be a shop thats just not doing enough or charging enough to pay those rates... who knows he may just be a cheap A$$


Im just guessing there is more to this then meets the eye........doesnt add up keeping the tools unless he is talking the welder. That owner would know thats going to cut his throat if he did. doesnt add up

[Edited by dec on 04-26-2006 at 10:42 PM]

He is claiming I owe him for the welder, etc.
He is claiming I have nothing due me in past wages, but for what he already gave me weeks ago.
He is withholding two weeks pay plus back wages for what he should have paid me when I asked for X amount per hour, on the writen application.


I am a person who is in it for the long haul.

When there is a mis-understanding ... let's talk it out so we come to an agreement that works for the both of us.
But let's NOT get into an arguement/ shouting match/ fight over it.
Let's NOT begin making threats and slandering one another.


But some folks simply do NOT feel the same way I do.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by shophound
R12, all due respect, I've been on this board going three years now, and you seem to go through more jobs than a Hummer does gasoline.

Maybe it's nothing more than a bad string of employers. Something in the water in the Austin area? Or maybe it's something else...

You're a man of faith...maybe God's tryin' to tell you somethin'?



Shophound, I agree with you 100%!!!


I have been thru a number of differing types of experiences in this industry. And THAT alone has made me a better individual in many ways.
I am flexible, adaptable and honestly trying to do whatever is required.
But since I am only human, I do often times make mistakes.
I learn from those mistakes and try to move forward. However, not everyone is willing to let you forget what you did wrong.

[hvacpope]

R12, I don’t know you at all, but in my opinion you have some issues to deal with, you sound like one of those guys that blame everyone else for their mistake and refuse to take responsibilities for their actions, I’ve read some of your latest post, the last one where you bashed the engineer, remember? You got into a pissing contest with the guy about a compressor, well, I had the feeling your days were counted after that.
Shop owners, foreman’s, service managers etc, don’t like or need a guy that cant keep his mouth shut, I’m incharge of an small crew, I don’t need my guys telling me stories or giving me excuses or pretending to be smart, I don’t care how much you know or how many trades years you got, just go there get the job done, admit your mistakes, ask for advise when needed, make the customer happy, and never talk crap about the company behind our back.

[dirtyboy103us]

dont worry R12 jobs are dime a dozen here in fla and if you need an invite here it is.... i'm in a simalar postition right now looking for a job starting monday
but the story i have to tell is just as exciting
but i dont want to hi-jack your thread

[chilbrig]

Go to the Federal Labor Board and see if they will help.
Tell them he is withholding your money and owes you overtime.

[hillbuck]

I'd surely let the folks who's door you repaired know how he treated you over that and that you're no longer with him.

[R12rules]

to those of you who think I just started this thread to vent ... well ... partly so.
And it's better to come here and vent than it would be to vent at the new shop I'm with.

And some here seem to think I have issues.

Well... I do have issues!!!

I take issue with anyone who will NOT live by "The Golden Rule" : "Treat others as you would have them treat you."

As far as my assigning blame to others when I am the one responsible ... I'm not here to debate that with y'all. You are free, as always, to form your own opinions.
Not many will subject themselves to public scrutiny like I am doing and stick around to hear y'all out.

I can name fifty guys here who would NEVER consider admitting they make mistakes.
Fifty who think their armpits dont stink! :D

I am here to admit, confess, openly share with y'all that I have made mistakes, do make mistakes and I do admit when I am wrong.
Now ... sometimes it may take me a minute or a month to REALISE I am in error .... but I do eventually come around.


How a co-worker or manager approaches me to discuss that error is in direct proportion to just how long it's take take me to figure out I was wrong!

Treat a guy like he's a mushroom and he will act like what you feed him.
Treat a man like he's a nail and you'll find him responding in like manner.
"HITTING YOU BACK!!!"




40K members here now, or there abouts .... it's nice if someone comes here and posts what is happening out there in the real world so others can both learn from it and be aware it goes on.

Now I look at every tool I own and think about labeling, taking pictures and documenting everything. Just to prevent this next time.
Also, I just went to work for another outfit. Even though I read the employee manual, there are still questions to be answered.

I am going to ask my manager to have a letter writen me stating in black & white, just what his offer is to me and how the company plans to compensate me.
The fed labor commission requires this already, so this shouldnt be out of line.


Keep it simple
Get it in writing
Keep a copy for yourself

Simple.



And to those of you who only view life as "This life is all there is," I say this...


There is so much more going on here than you even realise!
That employer seizing my tools, withholding my due pay and making false accusations and threats ... it is just the tip of the icebereg to what is really at issue here.

If that were not so, I would be the sorriest guy in the world for letting that guy withhold what he owes me.

[dirtyboy103us]

i agree with you R12
until you been down this road with an owner you can't under stand it most are horonable some are not

but now i have officially retired from supermarkets

now i am going to learn a new trade or go further my skills in it.. i did it when first got out of tech. school but wanted to be a refreman so bad that's what i went for made the full circle now and the money and hrs. are way better... 6.00 per hour more than any other commercial outfit even bother to offer me

maybe you could take your skills to the next level and become the service advisor and just keep moving up from there

we're not getting any younger

[aircooled53]

Hang in there R12, I feel your pain, as I too have had to deal with some employer's that shouldn't be doing HVAC.

I get some gruff sometimes from people on this site also but, it ain't stopped me from posting here.

Everybody has the right to there opinion on any topic, but until they have walked in your shoes maybe they shouldn't judge.

May you have a great start in your new job. I recently got a good job with local company, and so far it's worked out ok. They even waited 3 weeks before they put me on-call..

Have a great weekend....

Fort Worth<<<<Aircooled>>>>

[gbfromsd]

Well this brings up a couple of good points

First, DO NOT surrender the keys until you've taken your stuff out. DO NOT agree to work until your wage has been agreed upon and sealed with a handshake. DO NOT continue to work beyond the first pay period if your pay is not completely as agreed upon. DO NOT work for a**holes - period!

Here's what I would do. Contact your local state agency and file a labor grievance. Call up the a**hole and tell him you've done so and until you and he come to terms, every supplier, tech, and resource you know will be made aware of the situation. Depending on how the state can help, small claims may be your final option.

[Edited by gbfromsd on 05-07-2006 at 12:29 PM]

[R12rules]

after several trips and phone calls/ faxes ... multiple sheets listing out what I own and what is yet seized by this guy ... I am slowly getting back what is mine ... in tools.
The pay issue has not even been discussed.

First my personal stuff ... then I hit him up for the money.


last night, my step son went to pick up another partial load of my tools.
The ex called him aside and asked; "Do you know what this is all about?"
He replied, no.

The guy showed him a water hose and a welding machine.
He fumed a little over how I could spend so much for that stuff.




The guy is like a little kid holding a grudge or something!


Since he is yet holding my personal journal .. (diary), I just hope he reads it.
It could do him a world of good. He's see there is a different way to view life than the way he presently does.


you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.