G'Dub'Ya says F' the environment - hello Cheap GAS!

[tonys]

Bush Eases Environmental Rules on Gasoline
AP

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday ordered a temporary suspension of environmental rules for gasoline, making it easier for refiners to meet demand and possibly dampen prices at the pump. He also halted for the summer the purchase of crude oil for the government's emergency reserve. Bush also announced steps to ease environmental standards governing fuel grades.

[coolwhip]

Its all a bunch of feces.

[scrogdog]

Well, the situation is temporary.

It is due to a new additive that is to be added to make the "summertime blend". The old additive could be piped... the new one cannot be and so must be transported by rail or truck. If anything, criticize Bush and others for not realizing that the infrastructure was insufficient for the change.

Besides, what did you expect? Poll numbers show dissatisfaction with gas prices, not environmental performance. When the good people of America THEMSELVES wake up and smell the coffee in such a way that I do not see convoys of SUVs on the highway each containing one person, then I'll be more inclined to lay blame on politicians.

[player89]

Around here, all the vehicles I've seen in yards for sale have been SUV's. Car lots are starting to get stacked up with them, too. Maybe a few people are getting the message.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by tonys
Bush Eases Environmental Rules on Gasoline
AP

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday ordered a temporary suspension of environmental rules for gasoline, making it easier for refiners to meet demand and possibly dampen prices at the pump. He also halted for the summer the purchase of crude oil for the government's emergency reserve. Bush also announced steps to ease environmental standards governing fuel grades.


Newsflash. We live in a free enterprise economic system where you are free to make a profit or not go into business, as you so choose.

Libs haev made it impossible to make a profit because of asinine reglaions imposed on the construction of new refineries. No profits...no refineries. No refineries...no cheap gas.

[tonys]

'asinine reglaions'

did you make it out of the 9th grade???

(I know you carry a Ph.D in Sunday School...but what's the dillio?)

[coolwhip]

Boots is correct about no new refineries.

[tonys]

...hmmmmm, Exxon can build more refineries and increase their overall operational costs (on a wholesale level), only to decrease margins at the pump (retail) due to more readily available supply.

...

or, they can ‘run a leaner’ operation, use the excuse of 'environmental laws' for the lack of plant expansions (the regulations used to protect present and FUTURE inhabitants of this planet - of course if you're a Jesus-Freak, you probubly think the world is going to end in 4.234 years, so who gives a choir boy's a$$ about the environment...),
and presto – Gas sits at 3.25 $/gal.


Q. for the Bible-Thumping Macro-Economist – Bootsie...

How do other heavy industries THRIVE over the past 15-years under the SAME air and water regulations?
(Ref. steel industry and most building products manufacturers)

BUT, poor old Exxon can’t build a refinery with a proper scrubber on their exhaust stack???

Give me a freak’n break – WAY TOO MUCH FOX NEWS…too much.

[player89]

Before you get all in a sweat there tonys, you better do a little more research.

As coolwhip said, bootlen is right on this one.

There have been no permits issued for refineries since about 1983. Give yourself an education and find out the reason why.

[tonys]

permits?

you must be yet another Titan...



Steel plants make steel - they don't make/sell cars.

Exxon takes oil and natural gas from the earth, refines it, distributes it, AND sells it to you and a Kit-Kat candy bar to boot.

Is there something wrong with that picture???

[player89]

Go get yourself a permit and start your own refinery. There is nothing stopping you, and with all the interest in new refineries, you should have no problem getting financial backing. And since the money is so good, it has to be better than what you are doing now.

By the way, there were at one time several private refineries located throughout the US, and not one of them was shut down because a major oil company didn't want them around.

[homeownerplus]

I don't like playing the blame game but here is how I see it. If the left wing whackos would get off their high horse and get back to reality we would be seeing $1.00 a gallon or less at the pumps right now. They refuse to allow our own drilling for our own oil, forcing us to pay high dollar to countries who hate us. The leftys are claiming there are environmental risks. But scientists have proven no such risks exist because of our r&d into safe oil drilling practices. The bottom line is we are paying high prices so the libs can further their political agenda!

[tonys]

articulated like a typical F150 owner...

[player89]

Originally posted by tonys
articulated like a typical F150 owner...

you are driving ______________?

[geerair]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by tonys
Bush Eases Environmental Rules on Gasoline
AP

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday ordered a temporary suspension of environmental rules for gasoline, making it easier for refiners to meet demand and possibly dampen prices at the pump. He also halted for the summer the purchase of crude oil for the government's emergency reserve. Bush also announced steps to ease environmental standards governing fuel grades.


Newsflash. We live in a free enterprise economic system where you are free to make a profit or not go into business, as you so choose.

Libs haev made it impossible to make a profit because of asinine reglaions imposed on the construction of new refineries. No profits...no refineries. No refineries...no cheap gas. I expect Bootie didn't hear about the oil industry's record profits.

[homeownerplus]

Actually I drive a Toyota paseo and get 35 mpg and a honda motorcycle (Shadow Aero 750 if anyone cares) and that gets 50-60 mpg. And by the way I hate ford and will never own one.

[player89]

Originally posted by homeownerplus
Actually I drive a Toyota paseo and get 35 mpg and a honda motorcycle (Shadow Aero 750 if anyone cares) and that gets 50-60 mpg. And by the way I hate ford and will never own one.

Sounds like you bought wisely....

[homeownerplus]

And yes we do need more refineries but more so we need to drill for our own oil not just refine it. We need to be self sufficient and stop relying on forign supply. Flex fuel is a good start but not mass produced enough. Right now we need to drill. If you are a lib and complain about gas prices, and if you are a lib and blame Bush for our high gas prices you need to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself what the politicians who you vote for are doing. Or better yet stopping this country from doing what we should be doing.

[player89]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by tonys
Bush Eases Environmental Rules on Gasoline
AP

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday ordered a temporary suspension of environmental rules for gasoline, making it easier for refiners to meet demand and possibly dampen prices at the pump. He also halted for the summer the purchase of crude oil for the government's emergency reserve. Bush also announced steps to ease environmental standards governing fuel grades.


Newsflash. We live in a free enterprise economic system where you are free to make a profit or not go into business, as you so choose.

Libs haev made it impossible to make a profit because of asinine reglaions imposed on the construction of new refineries. No profits...no refineries. No refineries...no cheap gas. I expect Bootie didn't hear about the oil industry's record profits.

Don't know if he heard or not, but he obviously understands freedom to make a profit, whether it is a record or not.

Would you be upset if Vijay Singh shot a 54 on his next round of golf, with or without steroids?

[geerair]

Tony is right, the oil industry doesn't want build new refineries. With record profits and dwindling oil supplies what is their incentive for capital outlays that would have the effect of driving down profits?

Libs. holding back refinery construction? Bawhahahahahah, that is a Conservlican talking point disseminated to the zombies like Bootie who eat up this drivel. The Republicans own the government. Bush and Cheney are oilmen. their closest friends and allies are oilmen. Permits and regulations? Hell if Exxon wanted those they are for sale at the nation's capital.

No, Exxon and the other oil companies are doing just fine without those new refineries they don't want or need.


The energy policy was set by Cheney and the oil companies early on and they are now reaping the profits while we pay the bill.

You want to know why your money is pouring into your gastank? Demand that Cheney release the records of his little Energy Policy get together.

[geerair]

Originally posted by player89
Don't know if he heard or not, but he obviously understands freedom to make a profit, whether it is a record or not.Yes, and let's help the poor things out by giving them enormous tax breaks, royalty free drilling rights on federal land and allowing them to write energy policy to suit their needs.



Would you be upset if Vijay Singh shot a 54 on his next round of golf, with or without steroids? Not sure what you are trying to get at here.

[player89]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by player89
Don't know if he heard or not, but he obviously understands freedom to make a profit, whether it is a record or not.Yes, and let's help the poor things out by giving them enormous tax breaks, royalty free drilling rights on federal land and allowing them to write energy policy to suit their needs.

Did you take advantage of any tax credits or other tax breaks this year? And BTW, there is never any royalty free drilling done on any government land. BLM takes care of that, and believe me, they stay on top of it. Energy policy?? Show me the energy policy you have enacted, then we can compare it to the federal government's plans since about 1912 or so. Let me see, pump till the tank is full, then drive until it get's empty, repeat.....


Would you be upset if Vijay Singh shot a 54 on his next round of golf, with or without steroids? Not sure what you are trying to get at here.

Thought maybe you might understand a golf analogy that included tainted results, but maybe not.....Your putter still causing you problems?

[coolwhip]

US: No New Refineries in 29 Years

by Jad Mouawad, New York Times
May 9th, 2005






About 100 miles southwest of Phoenix, in a remote patch off Interstate 8, Glenn McGinnis is seeking to do something that has not been done for 29 years in the United States. He is trying to build an oil refinery.

Part of his job is to persuade local officials and residents to allow a 150,000-barrel-a-day refinery in their backyard - no small task. Another is to find investors ready to risk $2.5 billion in a volatile industry. So far, the effort has consumed six years and $30 million, with precious little to show for it.

Oil industry analysts and trade organizations like the American Petroleum Institute say they know of no one else doing the same thing.

Even so, Mr. McGinnis - an industry veteran who joined Arizona Clean Fuels last year as chief executive to give the project more heft against long odds - cleared a significant hurdle recently when Arizona awarded him a crucial emissions permit. Still ahead are countless rounds of negotiations with local, state and federal agencies to secure dozens more permits.

Meanwhile, the 1,400-acre site picked for the refinery, an old citrus grove near the Mexican border, remains empty, a sign of why the United States is now grappling with an acute shortage of plants that can refine the more than 20 million of barrels of crude oil that the country consumes every day.

The last refinery to be completed in the United States was in 1976, and Mr. McGinnis knows all too well that community and political opposition squashed earlier projects. His proposed refinery in Arizona has already been forced away from its original site near Phoenix, in 2003, after the state considered expanding the city's clean-air limits.

But times may be changing, said Mr. McGinnis, an oil business veteran of 33 years who has run refineries in the United States and Aruba.

"The moon and the stars have aligned for us," he said, speaking on his cellphone between discussing crude oil supplies with Mexico's state oil company. "We're halfway through, and we still have a lot of work."

Long considered the ugly duckling of the oil industry, the refining business is now in the spotlight as Americans complain about sticker shock at the gasoline pumps and higher energy prices over all.

President Bush has taken notice. Last month, Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, visiting the president at his Texas ranch on April 25, chided him with the message that his country could send more oil, but the United States would not have the ability to refine it. Soon afterward, Mr. Bush offered to provide closed military bases for new refineries.

Over the last quarter-century, the number of refineries in the United States dropped to 149, less than half the number in 1981. Because companies have upgraded and expanded their aging operations, refining capacity during that time period shrank only 10 percent from its peak of 18.6 million barrels a day. At the same time, gasoline consumption has risen by 45 percent.

But in the last two years, the refining business has experienced a revival of sorts, leading some refiners to predict they have entered an age of higher margins and better returns. Not everyone agrees, but for the first time in a long time the industry is more confident about itself. Even with better economics, however, it is still tough to build a refinery from scratch. Mr. McGinnis says he is not afraid of the challenge. He and his staff work in a small office in Phoenix, mostly consumed these days with securing permits and looking for financial backing.

The next step is to complete an environmental impact statement for the federal Bureau of Land Management. That will include an assessment of the refinery's impact on underground water sources and endangered species, as well as its effect on any Native American burial grounds.

After that, the project needs to get the site's zoning changed by Yuma County from agricultural to heavy industrial; Arizona's preservation office needs to be convinced that the refinery does not trample on any ancient historic site or trail; and finally, the project must apply for a presidential permit, which is issued by the State Department, to allow the crossing of a 200-mile pipeline into Mexico.

The business of turning crude oil into gasoline, jet fuel or heating oil has rarely been a lucrative proposition. It has dismal profit margins compared with its more glamorous cousin, exploration. It is highly cyclical and fairly unpredictable, because demand for gasoline swings sharply by season. And because of low oil prices over the past decades, refiners have been forced into cutthroat competition that has driven many of the smaller refiners out of business.

More refining capacity will almost certainly be needed. Gasoline demand is forecast to rise 39 percent by 2025, to 12.9 million barrels a day, up from today's 9.3 million barrels, according to a long-term outlook by the Energy Information Administration. By then, gasoline alone will account for nearly half the crude oil consumed in the United States.

By contrast, domestic refining capacity is expected to grow only by 0.8 percent from 2005 to 2007, slightly less than the 0.9 percent increase registered between 1998 and 2004, according to Jacques Rousseau, an oil analyst with the investment banker Friedman, Billings, Ramsey.

Jay Saunders, who follows oil companies for Deutsche Bank, said that the increase in refining margins would lead to increased capacity. "The industry is definitely going to overbuild," he said, "they have in the past and they will in the future."

Others caution that the industry should be wary of recreating a glut of capacity that would cause profit margins to sink again. "Refining has been a cyclical business for a long time," said Bill Hauschildt, the vice president for global refining with ChevronTexaco. "In the past few years, there's been much more discipline in the market for not overbuilding capacity."

Part of the issue, according to refiners, is that substantial investments were made over the last decade to lower carbon emissions and meet low-sulfur fuels regulations. The American Petroleum Institute estimates the industry invested $47 billion on such investments. More investments will be needed through 2007 to clean up gasoline and diesel.

"This is going to cost you money and the only thing you will get is cleaner air and less emissions - which are good - but no new capacity," said Edward H. Murphy, the industry group's general downstream sector manager.

"What refiners need are clear guidance on what's permissible and what is not if they want to expand," Mr. Murphy said. "So far, that has not been very clear."

To make up for the domestic shortfall, gasoline imports from Europe and South America have been rising in recent years. Gasoline imports now account for nearly 10 percent of domestic consumption and have exceeded a million barrels a day on average throughout April.

But even as the United States grows more reliant on foreign gasoline, it will face mounting competition from other buyers where demand is similarly growing, like China and India. "More competition means imports might become more expensive," said Joanne Shore, an analyst with the government's Energy Information Administration.

For Bob Slaughter, the president of the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association, the industry's main trade group, "The question now is to keep the growth in imports at a reasonable level." He expects additional capacity will come from expansion of existing projects and not from the construction of new refineries like the one in Arizona.

Even if all goes to plan and investors are found, Mr. McGinnis's envisioned refinery will not be ready before late 2009.

The prospect of a new employer, 3,000 construction jobs and 600 permanent posts has done a lot to outweigh concerns over the project, said John Nussbaumer, the mayor of Wellton, a city of 1,900 people about 20 miles from the refinery site.

"Of course I am concerned about the effects on the environment," he said. "Would I rather see it somewhere else? Yes. Would I oppose it at this time? No. It's been too long since a new refinery was built in the United States. Anything we can do to reduce our dependency on the Middle East is a good thing."

[daytonafan]

Why do liberals turn most moral issues into political ones and most political issues into moral ones? Abortion is a question of morality yet I get Roe v Wade shoved down my throat by libs every day. Illegal immigration is clearly an issue based on the rule of law yet I am told that I am cruel for wanting to seal the U.S. borders.

You guys need to make up your minds here. Is it my SUV that is causing gas prices to go up or is it Dick Cheney?
If Bush and Cheney are sitting in a room with a magic eraser and marker determining what gas should cost then what does it matter what I drive? I'm the idiot for paying $100.00 to fill up my truck.

I think an objective look at economics without the interference of political bias would prove this is clearly a S & D issue. I personally think the answer to high gas prices lies in questionable futures trading. Its also a question of priorities. (Boy, I am gonna get it for saying this.) Example: Last week, I stopped to fill my work truck. A man raced up to the pump and jumped out of his Chevy S-10. He started cussing the price ($2.98) of gas. He filled his truck and went inside to pay. He came out with (and this is the honest truth) 1.) A carton of Marlboro lights. 2.) A 2litre of Pepsi 3.)A bag of doughnuts.

We think we have a right to cheap gas, healthcare, and education in this country. The next time you go blow a weeks pay at a strip club or spend $30.00 for a pizza maybe you should ride your bike or walk. I'm more pissed that I have to work 2 months to pay my taxes. Maybe if the media would glob onto that issue something could be done about it. I think every American should be responsible for writing a check to the government each month instead of auto pay withdrawal. I bet your average Joe would stop *****ing about the price of gas

O.K. let me have it, I know you want to.

[player89]

10 gallons of gas-$29.80

Carton Marlboro Lights-$28.50

2 Liter Pepsi-$0.99

Half Dozen Doughnuts-$2.50

Right to whine, moan, groan, and fill gut w/ junk food and inhale smoke-priceless (cost of medical bills, you know)

[James 3528]

People that will get on the internet and bi+ch about the price of gas will spend $25 going to see a Alec Baldwin movie who got paid 20 million to make it.

Cap those Volcano's Tony's

[player89]

Originally posted by James 3528
People that will get on the internet and bi+ch about the price of gas will spend $25 going to see a Alec Baldwin movie who got paid 20 million to make it.

Cap those Volcano's Tony's

$20 million for a couple of months work-price gouging? Oops, I forgot, libs won't investigate themselves.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by geerair
Tony is right, the oil industry doesn't want build new refineries. With record profits and dwindling oil supplies what is their incentive for capital outlays that would have the effect of driving down profits?

Libs. holding back refinery construction? Bawhahahahahah, that is a Conservlican talking point disseminated to the zombies like Bootie who eat up this drivel. The Republicans own the government. Bush and Cheney are oilmen. their closest friends and allies are oilmen. Permits and regulations? Hell if Exxon wanted those they are for sale at the nation's capital.

No, Exxon and the other oil companies are doing just fine without those new refineries they don't want or need.


The energy policy was set by Cheney and the oil companies early on and they are now reaping the profits while we pay the bill.

You want to know why your money is pouring into your gastank? Demand that Cheney release the records of his little Energy Policy get together.


And it’s not just oil production that hasn’t kept up with demand. Hydroelectric power has been declining, burdened with controls on water release levels and delays in federal re-licensing. Some dams have been closed. No new orders for nuclear power plants have been placed since 1978, and environmental wrangling has prevented the federal government from removing spent fuel from nuclear reactors as is desperately needed. Even though coal represents 90 percent of U.S. recoverable fossil energy reserves, no major coal-fired electricity generating stations are being built in the country —because regulatory restrictions by the Clinton administration discouraged both new construction and the modernization of older plants. That leaves natural gas, where imports from Canada have increased by an unsustainable 130 percent over the past decade to meet our demand.

[James 3528]

And Slate

http://www.slate.com/id/2102031/

To claim the liberal left and the environmentalist have not had a hand on limiting refinery building and the Clinton Administration ridiculous guide lines in meddling with the refit of older power plants have not added to the instability just means you're a liar. But what else in new?

[Edited by JAMES 3528 on 04-25-2006 at 05:51 PM]

[James 3528]

Originally posted by geerair

You want to know why your money is pouring into your gastank? Demand that Cheney release the records of his little Energy Policy get together. [/B]

Then maybe we can look inside the Al Gore / Oxidental Petroleum deal.

Or how Hillary turned 10,000 into 100,000 over night, even how the famous records turned up on the desk the press has forgotten about.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by player89

Did you take advantage of any tax credits or other tax breaks this year? And BTW, there is never any royalty free drilling done on any government land. BLM takes care of that, and believe me, they stay on top of it. Energy policy?? Show me the energy policy you have enacted, then we can compare it to the federal government's plans since about 1912 or so. Let me see, pump till the tank is full, then drive until it get's empty, repeat.....[/b]

Thought maybe you might understand a golf analogy that included tainted results, but maybe not.....Your putter still causing you problems?





WOW! This is good stuff. Excellent point on the energy policy.
How many decades have we known we needed alternatives and revisions and yet, some bozo has the cojones to suggest it's the VP that's part of the problem?

I guess we should all assume that our elected officials should be paupers with no money, business sense, skill or drive.
Cheyney makes 9 million, gives over 6 million to charity but he's part of the big oil problem? Unbelievable.

I think geer is against the easing of government standards as long as it doesn't affect his golf game.

[James 3528]

Carter selling the Presidential Yacht saved us what? 2 maybe 3 billion barrels of oil?

No one ( the liberals ) wants to mention why hydro electric is at a stand still also.

Guess Cheny is a water man also.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James 3528

Then maybe we can look inside the Al Gore / Oxidental Petroleum deal.

Or how Hillary turned 10,000 into 100,000 over night, even how the famous records turned up on the desk the press has forgotten about.






Yeah, or maybe the DNC under slick wille and John Huang, The Wiriadinitas, The Buddhist Temple, The Indian Connection, The Lums, Charlie Trie and The Chinese Embassy, etc, etc.

Sour grapes from poor losers.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by tonys
Bush Eases Environmental Rules on Gasoline
AP

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday ordered a temporary suspension of environmental rules for gasoline, making it easier for refiners to meet demand and possibly dampen prices at the pump. He also halted for the summer the purchase of crude oil for the government's emergency reserve. Bush also announced steps to ease environmental standards governing fuel grades.


Does this extend to China?

[James 3528]

Originally posted by tonys

..

How do other heavy industries THRIVE over the past 15-years under the SAME air and water regulations?
(Ref. steel industry and most building products manufacturers)

]

Woooah Einstein. You are talking about a energy company. Not wood sales at Home Depot. You need to take a look at the heavy restrictions that were put on existing coal ( coal: unlimited supply in several life times) fired power plants by the EPA that made them shut down. Then for extra points you can tell us how much the hydro electric business has boomed with the guide lines the EPA imposed during the Slick Willie era.


How do other heavy industries THRIVE....THRIVE? ? You mean us or China? Detroit maybe? Yes, all the heavy industry making cars in Detroit, Atlanta and other metro areas is "thriving"

You're too easy.

[geerair]

Originally posted by James 3528
And it’s not just oil production that hasn’t kept up with demand. Hydroelectric power has been declining, burdened with controls on water release levels and delays in federal re-licensing. Some dams have been closed. No new orders for nuclear power plants have been placed since 1978, and environmental wrangling has prevented the federal government from removing spent fuel from nuclear reactors as is desperately needed. Even though coal represents 90 percent of U.S. recoverable fossil energy reserves, no major coal-fired electricity generating stations are being built in the country —because regulatory restrictions by the Clinton administration discouraged both new construction and the modernization of older plants. That leaves natural gas, where imports from Canada have increased by an unsustainable 130 percent over the past decade to meet our demand.

1. No link. Let me guess.....hummmmm......some wingnut site that james is embarrassed to link to.

2. The Clinton reference was for coal-fired electricity plants NOT gasoline refining plants.


3. Nothing in the article mentions gasoline refining plants.


What a mess.

[geerair]

Originally posted by James 3528
And Slate

http://www.slate.com/id/2102031/

To claim the liberal left and the environmentalist have not had a hand on limiting refinery building and the Clinton Administration ridiculous guide lines in meddling with the refit of older power plants have not added to the instability just means you're a liar. But what else in new? From james' Slate article:"The Clinton administration in the late 1990s proposed selling exploration leases for some 6 million acres in the Gulf of Mexico. but in 2001 after Florida governor Jeb Bush PROTESTED LOUDLY the government reduced the potential leaseable area by about 75%."

Bawhahahahahaha. Looks like the conservative right has had a huge hand in creating this problem. Hell, the President's brother for Zeus' sake.

The article doesn't mention environmentalists, restrictions, liberals.

What it does mention is the NIMBY syndrome.


James shoots himself in the foot again.

[rob10]

Originally posted by geerair
Tony is right, the oil industry doesn't want build new refineries. With record profits and dwindling oil supplies what is their incentive for capital outlays that would have the effect of driving down profits?

Libs. holding back refinery construction? Bawhahahahahah, that is a Conservlican talking point disseminated to the zombies like Bootie who eat up this drivel. The Republicans own the government. Bush and Cheney are oilmen. their closest friends and allies are oilmen. Permits and regulations? Hell if Exxon wanted those they are for sale at the nation's capital.

No, Exxon and the other oil companies are doing just fine without those new refineries they don't want or need.


The energy policy was set by Cheney and the oil companies early on and they are now reaping the profits while we pay the bill.

You want to know why your money is pouring into your gastank? Demand that Cheney release the records of his little Energy Policy get together. CORRECT!!

[geerair]

Originally posted by James 3528
Then maybe we can look inside the Al Gore / Oxidental Petroleum deal.What deal was that? The only connection I'm aware of is that the Gore family estate includes share of OXY.


Or how Hillary turned 10,000 into 100,000 over night, even how the famous records turned up on the desk the press has forgotten about.What does any of this have to do with energy policy?

[tonys]

Originally posted by James 3528

Originally posted by tonys

..

How do other heavy industries THRIVE over the past 15-years under the SAME air and water regulations?
(Ref. steel industry and most building products manufacturers)

]

Woooah Einstein. You are talking about a energy company. Not wood sales at Home Depot. You need to take a look at the heavy restrictions that were put on existing coal ( coal: unlimited supply in several life times) fired power plants by the EPA that made them shut down. Then for extra points you can tell us how much the hydro electric business has boomed with the guide lines the EPA imposed during the Slick Willie era.


How do other heavy industries THRIVE....THRIVE? ? You mean us or China? Detroit maybe? Yes, all the heavy industry making cars in Detroit, Atlanta and other metro areas is "thriving"

You're too easy.

There are nearly 50 coal-fired-elec. plants going on-line in the next few years. No one else in the world (outside of China) is building them, let alone at this clip.
So to blame NECESSARY enviro laws adopted in the '90s on the lack of refinery capacity today is wrong, just wrong. Something called 'acid rain' (you may or may not be aware of) is a trigger to air emissions standards on coal-plant stacks. The environment is important as any other element under consideration within the economy (just after labor itself???). How to do separate protecting the health of the environment and the health of humans?
Humanity is the Environment - and - the Environment is part of Humanity.

The oil-dudes have no incentive to spend the money and meet air/water standards. Other heavy industries seem to find the capital to do it. Why can't oil / oil refinery operations? hmmmm///

My initial point was that 'consumers' and 'voters' (not necessarily the same group of people these days) should demand that the energy is developed to meet present/future demands, while under appropriate environmental parameters. ...G'Dub'Ya has taken another approach (big surprise)


and...you're too predictable.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by tonys

Originally posted by James 3528

Originally posted by tonys

..

How do other heavy industries THRIVE over the past 15-years under the SAME air and water regulations?
(Ref. steel industry and most building products manufacturers)

]

Woooah Einstein. You are talking about a energy company. Not wood sales at Home Depot. You need to take a look at the heavy restrictions that were put on existing coal ( coal: unlimited supply in several life times) fired power plants by the EPA that made them shut down. Then for extra points you can tell us how much the hydro electric business has boomed with the guide lines the EPA imposed during the Slick Willie era.


How do other heavy industries THRIVE....THRIVE? ? You mean us or China? Detroit maybe? Yes, all the heavy industry making cars in Detroit, Atlanta and other metro areas is "thriving"

You're too easy.

There are nearly 50 coal-fired-elec. plants going on-line in the next few years. No one else in the world (outside of China) is building them, let alone at this clip.
So to blame NECESSARY enviro laws adopted in the '90s on the lack of refinery capacity today is wrong, just wrong. Something called 'acid rain' (you may or may not be aware of) is a trigger to air emissions standards on coal-plant stacks. The environment is important as any other element under consideration within the economy (just after labor itself???). How to do separate protecting the health of the environment and the health of humans?
Humanity is the Environment - and - the Environment is part of Humanity.

The oil-dudes have no incentive to spend the money and meet air/water standards. Other heavy industries seem to find the capital to do it. Why can't oil / oil refinery operations? hmmmm///

My initial point was that 'consumers' and 'voters' (not necessarily the same group of people these days) should demand that the energy is developed to meet present/future demands, while under appropriate environmental parameters. ...G'Dub'Ya has taken another approach (big surprise)


and...you're too predictable.

Some what weak attempt at word smithing the facts away. And they were not so much environmental laws Clinton signed in the 90's. Their were existing and new laws like the Food Quality Protection act laws they manipulated and interpreted in an intentional attempt at shutting the plants down even when the plants were trying to refit to meet the standards. Just like Carol M. Browner, head of the EPA under Clinton success in outlawing diazinon based on a potential threat and not a proven one.. She simply said their were other alternatives. We now see what the alternatives we have for spraying the slabs of homes for termites are. They are worthless. They were so worried about the health and welfare of cockroaches while our nuclear targeting and warhead secrets were stolen by China.

Still easy!

[tonys]

predictable.

[homeownerplus]

nuclear secrets stolen by China or sold to them by CLinton?

[tonys]

don't get Jimbo8675309 started on that one...

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by homeownerplus
[B]nuclear secrets stolen by China or sold to them by CLinton?



James may be referring to something else but the Justice Dept. DID present information to a grand jury showing two companies that illegaly provided China with satellite technology enabling China to accelerate it's nuclear missile program.
Loral Space and Communications and Hughes Electronics.
In fact, the chairman and CEO, Bernard Schwartz was the largest individual contributor to the DNC in 1997 and donated 1 million in 1995.
A classified Pentagon document subsequently confirmed that United States national security was damaged by the incident.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by James 3528
And it’s not just oil production that hasn’t kept up with demand. Hydroelectric power has been declining, burdened with controls on water release levels and delays in federal re-licensing. Some dams have been closed. No new orders for nuclear power plants have been placed since 1978, and environmental wrangling has prevented the federal government from removing spent fuel from nuclear reactors as is desperately needed. Even though coal represents 90 percent of U.S. recoverable fossil energy reserves, no major coal-fired electricity generating stations are being built in the country —because regulatory restrictions by the Clinton administration discouraged both new construction and the modernization of older plants. That leaves natural gas, where imports from Canada have increased by an unsustainable 130 percent over the past decade to meet our demand.

1. No link. Let me guess.....hummmmm......some wingnut site that james is embarrassed to link to.

2. The Clinton reference was for coal-fired electricity plants NOT gasoline refining plants.


3. Nothing in the article mentions gasoline refining plants.


What a mess.

No one has mistaken you for a Link Master.

Dispute the facts, try Google.