Ultimate IAQ Solution

[brentis]

I've been doing significant research on impact of VOC's and particulate matter and in looking for the ultimate system that is cost effective and has performance which doesn't degrade over time.

I initially was going to go with the Amaircare 6500 with optional VOC canisters, however, with the unpredictability and off gasing of the carbon over time it is hard for me to think it is the ultimate solution.

So in doing further research, I think the combination of a PCO technology for VOC's coupled with a MERV 16 solution for particulates is the way to go.

I've isolated the solution down to technologies based on StrionAir and UltraSun. Both of these seem to be the leaders in their field. StrionAir is resold by Carrier for residential. Alternatively IQAir came out with a MERV16 unit, but it is a barrier based media, plus install might be messy.

In comparison of the UltraSun vs. the Lennox pureair, I understand that Ultrasun uses germicidal UV lights vs. Lennox uses blacklights. While both work for VOC, these systems create Formaldahyde as an intermediate product and the germicidal UV lights breakdown the Formaldahyde 30% more effectively. Plus I understand the Ti02 substrate is applied much more effectively to a larger area on the UltraSun.

My question is, can I piggyback the two units onto my 5 ton unit? I would likely consider removing the MERV 11 filter on the UltraSun and rely on the MERV15 capabilities from the Carrier unit. Would the pressure drop prohibit this and if not is it even physically feasible (I do have enough space if it could be done).

The reason I would like to do this is we are downstairs 90% of the time and this is where this unit would do most of the work. I have a 3 ton unit for the up stairs and could place one of those units on it, but I don't know which unit would be better - the one which kills the VOC's as they are lighter than air and would float to the upper floors naturally?

Also my fresh air intake is attached to the bottom unit.

Thanks for your feedback and if anyone wants some of the links I've acquired from my research let me know.


Brentis

[genesis]

Brinton you have done some good reasearch. But don't buy a name. these guys are new in the ballgame. Merv 16 filters will choke your airflow down so much your a/c will freeze up all the time. Merv 12 is about where the break is on filters for residential when you go 13 or higher it will restrict extremly fast and 95% of .1 microns is mainly smoke particles. You want the PCO to do most of the work and let the filter be a pre filter for the PCO. And I would lean more to a system with UVGI for a 3rd technology to help steralize the air. (A) band uv light will activate a PCO but you don't get the germicidale pluses of UVGI. Man I have systems in Federal buildings with over 80,000 CFM with 8 6 foot tubes. Check a magazine article in Engineered Systems Magazine this month for some good info on alot of our studies and proper use of the techlology.http://www.esmagazine.com/CDA/Articles/Feature_Article/1f9016fba223a010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

Paul
Genesis Air Inc

[Edited by genesis on 04-21-2006 at 11:11 PM]

[mark beiser]

The ultimate IAQ solution is a tight duct system, tight house, fresh air supply to insure air changes with a slight positive pressure on the house, and a good media type air cleaner.

But hey, its easy and cheeper to just add fancy boxes to the system that just target the symptoms rather than go through all the trouble of fixing the problem. ;)

[teddy bear]

Mark, you are on the money. Add "preventing areas of sustained high humidity". This avoids growth of mold, dust mites, and bacteria. The home needs less than 60%RH for dust mite control and mold growth on cool surfaces. The a/c combined with a dehumidifier provides <50%RH. Air ducts around the wet cooling coil are the toughest task. Mold growth requires continuous moister for +24 hour. Daily drying of the ducts will control mold in the ducts. The one thing missing is generating some profit like with the quick fixes. TB

[mark beiser]

Yeah, when I replace my system, I'll be installing a dehumidification system that will also handle my fresh air intake. ;)

[Special Ed]

So that's all that's needed? A dehumidifier & a fresh-air intake?

Well....

Everyone has a product to sell, I suppose. Nothing like something from the co. you represent, huh? :D

[brentis]

Thanks Genesis. I'll look up your article. The thing with the strionair technology is that the pressure drop is less than a merv11 system. It's not purely a media based restriction. If it was I would understand not using it. Given this

For the rest of the feedback - fresh air would be great, however, I would have to ship it from somewhere a 100miles from my house. I live just north of Dallas,TX and have a Asphalt plant 1 mile from my house. I'm sure all of you who believe in dehumidifiers being the holy grail don't have these issues and are up to speed on the issues of diesel soot and VOC's. Its the air I bring into my house that I'm concerned about. Cleaning the inside air is an additional benefit.

http://www.burningissues.org/
http://www.catf.us/projects/diesel/dieselhealth/
http://www.scorecard.org/

Genesis - I almost forgot - the difference with the UltraSun over the Lennox PureAir is that UltraSun uses a UVGI light instead of a black light to activate the Ti02 substrate.

[Edited by brentis on 04-22-2006 at 06:09 PM]

[teddy bear]

Originally posted by Special Ed
So that's all that's needed? A dehumidifier & a fresh-air intake?

Well....

Everyone has a product to sell, I suppose. Nothing like something from the co. you represent, huh? :D
Include adequate +merv 11 air filters and no water leaks inside or out.
Regarding how we make a living and its effect on what we say- I decided to become involved in dehumidifiers after I understood the necessity of humidity control. Also I also considered the use of UVs but found their benefit limited. So guilty but I make no secret of the facts. Dry space, fresh clean air, minimal investment, and comfort are our objectives. Yes, make a living in the process. The dehu peddling, TB

[Special Ed]

No, I agree with dehumidification, definitely. But it depends on what part of the country you live. When I lived in Vegas dehumidifiers were unnecessary. Now that I live in Florida I find they are very necessary. On the other hand, A/C systems are becoming more & more efficient, & more & more capable of removing large amounts of moisture from the air. I can foresee the day when separate units for dehumidification will become unnecessary. No offense.

As far as UV lights are concerned, I think they do work as advertised; however, I don't think they're a fix-all. Fresh air is needed & can be used in tandem with UV.

[genesis]

Brentis shoot me a good e-mail address and I will send you out some current info on PCOs not al the 10 year old research you see on the net. I understand what you have and know the area you live in. Its hard to bring fresh air in to a space when the outside air is intolerable. The casino I did in Ecuador I am treating the fresh air coming in to the casino as well as the indoor air. And have DDC controls with CO2 sensors controling thr fresh air dampers and exhaust.
Im all over Dallas all the time. A PCO system will help your situation well. The testing I have seen on Lennox's unit is favorable I havn't seen any on the other system. We have a test coming up on the 6th at a military test lab. We should know in no uncertain terms how well our PCO does with all biologics military based or natural VOCs. We now have every thing of ours engineered specked with load calculators which should make it easier for an engineer to spec a system ,know matter what size of unit or square footage.
Paul
Genesis Air Inc
http://www.genesisair.com

[TConnors]

I tend to disagree with Mark... I have a dehumidified 30-50 cfm "fresh" air supply, well sealed ducks and house, and feel my IAQ is terrible. I have Carrier Merv-11 5" filter, and Merv 11 on the dehumidifer (SanteFe), and Merv13 on the fresh air intake. In Austin, TX mold count seems to be "high" everyday, and I live on a lake in the woods, so mold count is probably twice as high outside my house (it smells like it). Just not sure where I'm supposed to get "fresh air" from.

I can smell mold, and feel my eyes water when I walk into my house, much more so if I've been gone for the weekend. Guess it's time for me to try the UV/PCO approach.

[mark beiser]

Its all meaningless if you don't have a tight duct system and house.
Typically the average, and even above average, constructed home here in Texas is pisspoor quality, as is the installation of the HVAC system.

[marauderx]

Originally posted by mark beiser
The ultimate IAQ solution is a tight duct system, tight house, fresh air supply to insure air changes with a slight positive pressure on the house, and a good media type air cleaner.

But hey, its easy and cheeper to just add fancy boxes to the system that just target the symptoms rather than go through all the trouble of fixing the problem. ;)

Absolutely right.

And why are you going to do all of this? Are you manufacturing microchips?

[teddy bear]

Originally posted by marauderx

Originally posted by mark beiser
The ultimate IAQ solution is a tight duct system, tight house, fresh air supply to insure air changes with a slight positive pressure on the house, and a good media type air cleaner.

But hey, its easy and cheeper to just add fancy boxes to the system that just target the symptoms rather than go through all the trouble of fixing the problem. ;)
Absolutely right.
And why are you going to do all of this? Are you manufacturing microchips?
True, most poeple get climatized to any condition like chemicals, odors from mold, and dust mite allergens. A significant percentage of the population need good IAQ to be healthy and comfortable. Providing the ultimate in IAQ and comfort is what this is about. PS Don't try to manufacture chips in these conditions. That requires the next level control, drier and cleaner yet. TB

[hepa - guy]

IAQ problems was solved years ago. Provide ventilation, good filtration, and humidity control and your problem is solved. Everyone is busy trying to invent to gadgets that simply aren't required. The easy answer is the right answer.

[TConnors]

IAQ is not as simple as 50% RH and "fresh air" ventilation. Over the past 8-10 years of mold and allergy problems, I believe it depends a lot on your location, and your AC set-up. Case in point:

I live in Austin, where mold and pollen counts are always very high, and temperatures are higher than that. I tried bringing in "fresh air", at 100 degrees (which is full of mold spores), when the air hits the indoor 75 degree environment it turns humid very fast. I found it contaminates a dehumidifier very fast, and in turn the entire indoor "well sealed" environment. Seems sealing this in is not what you want to do.

I also run my AC fan 24/7 to help circulate air through my 5" Merv-13 filter. I've noticed a damp filter off and on and could not figure out why, until this past weekend. I was "playing" with my Thermidistat testing the "cool on dehumidify" function. I never really used it because I have an SanteFe that keeps humidity below 50%, but I've had it off lately (because of mold problems in it), so I set the Thermidistat to dehumidify at 52%. I noticed with this functioning, that the fan turns off for about 5-10 minutes after a cooling cycle (even with fan "on"), to let water drain from coil. I noticed that water was dripping onto the filter during that 5 minutes, which I guess can happen when it's so humid the coil can't hold all the water. Not real problem with the fan running 24/7, it dries out fast... I never ran the fan all the time in the past, so mold would grow like crazy on my coil and on my filter back when I had the fan set on "auto".

I just installed (2) UV lamps and a titanium cataylst (from GenesisAir) to see how well it controls my indoor air quality. Will let you know....

[pstu]

To me that water dripping on the filter sounds really bizarre. I have to wonder if this might be abnormal, and a root cause of your IAQ complaints. Please do find a competent pro to size this up, and I hope he finds something fixable. Let us know if and when things develop.

Best of luck -- Pstu

P.S. I used to live in Austin long ago, and now live west of Houston, so it's easy to sympathize with your hot-humid climate.

[TConnors]

"Competent Pro" what's that? I've had the installer and the local Carrier rep out (on a totally different problem), and they had no clue. The different problem being a loud "bubbling" sound in the lines that goes on for about a minute each time the compressor kicks on, like "hammer" in a water line. They said "that's normal".... I've never heard more than "phishshshing" sound in any other AC I've had.

I clean the coils every 6 months, good cleaner and garden hose with good nozzle, and it never looks dirty other than aluminum oxide build up. I did try "Cal-Shield" (teflon stuff), so maybe the water doesn't like to stick to the coils and just runs straight down... maybe I should get Nu-Calgon to replace my coil.

Know any "competent" AC guys in Austin, TX?

[kamenr]

A question about diesel particulates, mentioned above.

I've skimmed through the various literature but have seen no mention of filtering diesel particulates. Aren't these considerably smaller than the 1 micron size that filters normally address?

I see that there are a number of diesel particulate filters that can be fitted to vehicle exhausts. Are such products available for HVAC systems?

[behappy]

Originally posted by TConnors
I tend to disagree with Mark... I have a dehumidified 30-50 cfm "fresh" air supply, well sealed ducks and house, and feel my IAQ is terrible. I have Carrier Merv-11 5" filter, and Merv 11 on the dehumidifer (SanteFe), and Merv13 on the fresh air intake. In Austin, TX mold count seems to be "high" everyday, and I live on a lake in the woods, so mold count is probably twice as high outside my house (it smells like it). Just not sure where I'm supposed to get "fresh air" from.

I can smell mold, and feel my eyes water when I walk into my house, much more so if I've been gone for the weekend. Guess it's time for me to try the UV/PCO approach.

We had this problem with our old home. It was built in the 70's with water source, very little glass and glass duct run under the ceiling in chases. After some high $$ problems with the ater source I jerked it out and went to air to air heat pump. The wife had serious allergy problems for years. costly test and allergy shots the whole bag. Years down the road we decided to remodel tore down all the fur downs pulled the glass duct and it looked like white bread that fell behing the cabinet!
Mold from one end to the other. New system, new ductwork (in the attic) problem solved (mostly).