April 19 1993

[James 3528]

The Clinton Administration separates Church and State.

http://home.eol.ca/~dord/waco_fire02.jpg
http://www.causes-of-terrorism.net/images/ram4T.jpg

[bootlen]

That was a church alright. But one that needed to be disbanded. Harmful to children and wouldn't know the Living God if He stepped on 'em. And Koresh did need to come down.

BUT...yer right, James. True lib colors came out on that day.

[James 3528]

20 children were in those ashes........A short time later Reno returns a little Cuban kid to Cuba with tender loving care. A lot of the activity there was fabricated.

You point almost sounds like the Catholic to a degree Bootlen where their activity wasn't fabricated. Why wasn't Army Special Forces unit not mobilised then to save them? Sorry for the reality check.

[coolwhip]

Thanks for putting the Reno image back in my brain James.:eek:

[bootlen]

Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. They totally muffed the whole thing. It was almost like they were saying, "If WE don't kill the kids, then we won't let you destroy them either."

Someone had their heads planted firmly up their arses on both sides. But ya kinda expect the Fed leadership to be the cool heads on a situation like this, especially since Koresh was already off the deep end. (I wonder if he was ever sane in his life.) I guess that's what happens when a butch AG is the idiot in charge.

Personally, I think she should have been brought up on charges in this case and in Elian's case.

[skrewt]

I especially love the image of the column of amored vehicles. It makes a beautiful point of how democrats work.

Lightly armed civilians? use armor.
Heavily armed militia in Somalia.....no armor.

And they say GW is stupid when it comes to military strategy.

I believe that the FBI intended to kill those people to CYA their screw ups.
If more had gotten out alive, FBI/ATF agents would be in jail right now.

[samtheman]

Originally posted by James 3528
The Clinton Administration separates Church and State.

http://home.eol.ca/~dord/waco_fire02.jpg
http://www.causes-of-terrorism.net/images/ram4T.jpg

Failures of the AG and ATF are all Clinton's and the Democrats' fault? Right.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by samtheman

Originally posted by James 3528
The Clinton Administration separates Church and State.

http://home.eol.ca/~dord/waco_fire02.jpg
http://www.causes-of-terrorism.net/images/ram4T.jpg

Failures of the AG and ATF are all Clinton's and the Democrats' fault? Right.

Well, in this case; yes. Who else would be at fault? Reno admitted fault and took the blame for the incident.

[James 3528]

Right Robo. Samantha obviously doesn't know the other issue also. Army special forces personnel were there which was a violation of the posse comatose law

[samtheman]

Originally posted by James 3528
Right Robo. Samantha obviously doesn't know the other issue also. Army special forces personnel were there which was a violation of the posse comatose law

And I suppose there is evidence showing that clinton and democratic higher-up ordered it all?

[James 3528]

Read Robo's post Samantha. Reno was the attorney General

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by samtheman

Originally posted by James 3528
Right Robo. Samantha obviously doesn't know the other issue also. Army special forces personnel were there which was a violation of the posse comatose law

And I suppose there is evidence showing that clinton and democratic higher-up ordered it all?

This is just silly. Do you not have any understanding of what happened at all? The killings at Ruby Ridge were another Clinton administration method of attacking citizens who were legally defending themselves.

These were all things that the Democratic led government were doing in order to disarm American citizens. Thankfully, it backfired and wound up waking up more citizens as to what can happen when a government goes fascist.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by samtheman

Originally posted by James 3528
Right Robo. Samantha obviously doesn't know the other issue also. Army special forces personnel were there which was a violation of the posse comatose law

And I suppose there is evidence showing that clinton and democratic higher-up ordered it all?

This is just silly. Do you not have any understanding of what happened at all? The killings at Ruby Ridge were another Clinton administration method of attacking citizens who were legally defending themselves.

These were all things that the Democratic led government were doing in order to disarm American citizens. Thankfully, it backfired and wound up waking up more citizens as to what can happen when a government goes fascist.



Reno claimed to take responsibility yet she never faced any repercussions.

The shooter at Ruby Ridge actually was promoted within the FBI.

So much for responsibility.

[James 3528]

Norm, I recall a different story. I think after some time , the government took action against him.

[NormChris]

http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/21/ruby.ridge/

[James 3528]

WoW he was at Wako.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=14810

[NormChris]

Originally posted by James 3528
WoW he was at Wako.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=14810


Interesting. I was not aware of that. So, what has happened to those in charge? OH, I forgot, they took full responsibility! Yeah, sure.

[geerair]

Ummmm.......Ruby ridge happened on Bush 41's watch.

[geerair]

Originally posted by James 3528
WoW he was at Wako.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=14810 Worldnut Daily. LOL!!

[NormChris]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by James 3528
WoW he was at Wako.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=14810 Worldnut Daily. LOL!!


Its true, Lon was there. It was also covered in U.S. News & World Report.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco83.html

[James 3528]

Oh Geer doesn't care about the facts. When they are concrete and not disputable, he attacks the messenger.

[geerair]

Originally posted by James 3528
Oh Geer doesn't care about the facts. When they are concrete and not disputable, he attacks the messenger. Bawhahahahahah. What a hypocrite. I got the same LOL a few days ago from guess who. The difference is that the article I quoted was factual and james didn't attempt to rebut the facts. The worldnut editorial is pure speculation with Mr. Farah using all manner of weasel words.

[James 3528]

Nope.

[geerair]

Oh yeah.

[James 3528]

So Geer has a problem with the verbs, nouns, pronouns, adjectives ... a when he doesn't like the facts.


Bawawawawawa

[MadeinUSA]

Originally posted by samtheman

Originally posted by James 3528
Right Robo. Samantha obviously doesn't know the other issue also. Army special forces personnel were there which was a violation of the posse comatose law

And I suppose there is evidence showing that clinton and democratic higher-up ordered it all? This is the reason I quit debating you on what a racist McKinney is, you are completely ignorant of factual information, as shown on this topic too.

[geerair]

Originally posted by James 3528
So Geer has a problem with the verbs, nouns, pronouns, adjectives ... a when he doesn't like the facts.


Bawawawawawa Nah, just a problem when an editorial writer uses weasel words to insinuate something. If he had any facts or concrete evidence he wouldn't be so weasely. but then that is World Nut's M.O.

Also why james loves it, Bawhahahahahaah

[James 3528]

Did he take sides with McKinney ?

LOL

She is a racist idiot

[James 3528]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by James 3528
So Geer has a problem with the verbs, nouns, pronouns, adjectives ... a when he doesn't like the facts.


Bawawawawawa Nah, just a problem when an editorial writer uses weasel words to insinuate something. If he had any facts or concrete evidence he wouldn't be so weasely. but then that is World Nut's M.O.

Also why james loves it, Bawhahahahahaah

You write like a woman on the rag. You whiny bi+ch!

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by samtheman
Failures of the AG and ATF are all Clinton's and the Democrats' fault? Right.




Absolutely the President's fault. He gave the executive order. He had the power to make brutal force option #1 at Waco.
While the government's ostensible purpose was to serve search and arrest warrants, they did NOT bother to announce their arrival and demanded entry.
If you liberal ba--ards are going to blame every single thing on President Bush, then turnabout is surely fair play, huh samantha?

[geerair]

Originally posted by James 3528
You write like a woman on the rag. You whiny bi+ch!James you Ignorant slut.

[chillbilly]

Another fact;
The ATF codename for the original raid was SHOWTIME.
Ya' know, the one that left 4 ATF agents and 6 branch davidians dead?
2 months later Clinton and Reno got their showtime revenge.
Never a bigger pair of cowards who abused their power than those two.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
While the government's ostensible purpose was to serve search and arrest warrants, they did NOT bother to announce their arrival and demanded entry.Ummmmm......Yes they did demand entry to execute warrants. Koresh slammed the door.

[chillbilly]

I wonder how tough Janet and Bill felt when they seized Elian at gunpoint and sent him back to Fidel?

[chillbilly]

Originally posted by geerair
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by chillbilly
While the government's ostensible purpose was to serve search and arrest warrants, they did NOT bother to announce their arrival and demanded entry.Ummmmm......Yes they did demand entry to execute warrants. Koresh slammed the door.




Wrong!
The evidence suggests that they intended a dynamic entry and a consensual search would not have fit into their plans.
With congressional hearings only a few weeks away, ATF needed to demonstrate it's "worthiness" for additional funding. They were looking to gain some major points with their Hollywood style assault.

[Edited by chillbilly on 04-19-2006 at 09:06 PM]

[chillbilly]

Also note that if the ATF wanted to nab Koresh without fanfare, they were undercover and with him firing weapons on his compound 9 DAYS BEFORE FEB. 28. DUH!
Better do a little more web research there rookie.

[Edited by chillbilly on 04-19-2006 at 09:11 PM]

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly



Wrong!
The evidence suggests that they intended a dynamic entry and a consensual search would not have fit into their plans.
With congressional hearings only a few weeks away, ATF needed to demonstrate it's "worthiness" for additional funding. They were looking to gain some major points with their Hollywood style assault.Evidence suggests? Why not go by what every account and timeline states: They demanded entry to serve warrants and Koresh slammed the door.

I know reality is more boring than your conspiracy theories but reality is so much more truthful.

[chillbilly]

If the Branch Davidians had been waiting to ambush ATF as the government was trying to imply, they could have easily mowed them down as they were exiting their ATF cattle trailers.
Also, after Koresh slammed the door on ATF, the government tried to contend that gunshots were fired from inside.
When an examination was conducted, it was determined that the gunshots had entered the door from the OUTSIDE.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Also note that if the ATF wanted to nab Koresh without fanfare, they were undercover and with him firing weapons on his compound 9 DAYS BEFORE FEB. 28. DUH!
Better do a little more web research there rookie. Ummmm.....gathering intel is not the same as an arrest. Even a Barney Fife like you should know that.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by geerair
quote]Evidence suggests? Why not go by what every account and timeline states: They demanded entry to serve warrants and Koresh slammed the door.

I know reality is more boring than your conspiracy theories but reality is so much more truthful.



You're out of your league here. The subcommittees that determined "real timelines" noted ...
"ATF chose the dynamic entry raid, the most hazardous option, despite it's recognition that a violent outcome was predictable". OUCHIE GEER!

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
If the Branch Davidians had been waiting to ambush ATF as the government was trying to imply, they could have easily mowed them down as they were exiting their ATF cattle trailers.
Also, after Koresh slammed the door on ATF, the government tried to contend that gunshots were fired from inside.
When an examination was conducted, it was determined that the gunshots had entered the door from the OUTSIDE.Laughable. Bullets were flying from inside and outside. Impossible to tell who fired first.

[chillbilly]

Furthermore, ATF knew immediately before the raid that Koresh had been tipped off that they were coming, BUT PROCEEDED ANYWAY.
The subcommittees concluded that "ATF's reckless decision to continue with the raid, despite having lost the element of surprise, more than any other factor lead to the deaths that occured".

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
You're out of your league here. The subcommittees that determined "real timelines" noted ...
"ATF chose the dynamic entry raid, the most hazardous option, despite it's recognition that a violent outcome was predictable". OUCHIE GEER! All accounts state that the ATF demanded entry and Koresh refused slamming a steel door.


Quibble all you want, your statement that the ATF never demanded entry is a fabrication.

[chillbilly]

Subcommittees also concluded that the Clinton admin attempted to absolve itself by asserting that they had issued a directive to cancel the raid if the element of surprise had been lost.
In fact, there had been no such order by the T-Dept of ATF nor by the ATF in Waco.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Furthermore, ATF knew immediately before the raid that Koresh had been tipped off that they were coming, BUT PROCEEDED ANYWAY.
The subcommittees concluded that "ATF's reckless decision to continue with the raid, despite having lost the element of surprise, more than any other factor lead to the deaths that occured". The subcommittees also found that the Davidians could have safely left the compound if they had wanted to.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by geerair


Quibble all you want, your statement that the ATF never demanded entry is a fabrication.




Please show where I posted this statement.
Your way out of your league here. This is where reading WHOLE texts instead of web snippets, really comes in handy GOOMER.
The second factor contributing to ATF's assault was the fact that they had been collaborating with the military and were in warlike mode.
Civilian use of military is a contraversial practice and has been in disfavor with congress and the courts for some time now. You getting all this geer?
ATF's history militated in favor of lightning style dynamic entries.
They got all they could handle from the Davidians. LOL!

[chillbilly]

[i]Originally posted by geerair
The subcommittees also found that the Davidians could have safely left the compound if they had wanted to. [/B]



No doubt. Duh! The impetus was on the ATF to do the right thing there, dummy. Not the Branch-Davidians.
Citizens expect their government to protect it's citizens despite their resistance. Not torch their homes and kill innocents.
Again, you're way out of your league here.
NEXT! LOL!

[samtheman]

Originally posted by chillbilly
[QUOTE]Originally posted by geerair
quote]Evidence suggests? Why not go by what every account and timeline states: They demanded entry to serve warrants and Koresh slammed the door.

I know reality is more boring than your conspiracy theories but reality is so much more truthful.



You're out of your league here. The subcommittees that determined "real timelines" noted ...
"ATF chose the dynamic entry raid, the most hazardous option, despite it's recognition that a violent outcome was predictable". OUCHIE GEER!

The ATF chose the dynamic entry raid. It was not Clinton or Reno that gave the order. Call me names if you want, but neither Clinton or Reno pulled the trigger.

[chillbilly]

The T-Dept found fault with the conduct of it's agents when they investigated WACO and took remedial action against them.
The 2 commanders of the raid who took action despite knowing Koresh had been tipped off, were fired.
They were later re-instated and other ATF officials were forced to resign or suspended.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by samtheman

The ATF chose the dynamic entry raid. It was not Clinton or Reno that gave the order. Call me names if you want, but neither Clinton or Reno pulled the trigger.



Sambo, go to bed. You have no clue as to what you are suggesting. Geer does not need any help being put in his place on this one from you. LOL

[samtheman]

Originally posted by chillbilly
The T-Dept found fault with the conduct of it's agents when they investigated WACO and took remedial action against them.
The 2 commanders of the raid who took action despite knowing Koresh had been tipped off, were fired.
They were later re-instated and other ATF officials were forced to resign or suspended.


Exactly. Clinton or Reno may have installed the offending individuals in their respective positions, but the f*ckups that led to deaths were the responsibility of the commanders ON SITE AND OFF SITE, the ones that actually issued the orders.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
No doubt. Duh! The impetus was on the ATF to do the right thing there, dummy. Not the Branch-Davidians.
Citizens expect their government to protect it's citizens despite their resistance. Not torch their homes and kill innocents.
Again, you're way out of your league here.
NEXT! LOL! [/B]When a lawful warrant is served, then it is the duty of the citizens to comply.

Did you skip your civics class?

[chillbilly]

Shall we proceed to the siege Geer?
I have studied WACO in depth and will enlighten you as needed. I also welcome your web generated, idiotic responses.
They do and will continue to show how overmatched you are on an issue that originated right in your own state.
Imagine that. A North Carolinian giving you a Texas history lesson.

[geerair]

Originally posted by samtheman

Originally posted by chillbilly
The T-Dept found fault with the conduct of it's agents when they investigated WACO and took remedial action against them.
The 2 commanders of the raid who took action despite knowing Koresh had been tipped off, were fired.
They were later re-instated and other ATF officials were forced to resign or suspended.


Exactly. Clinton or Reno may have installed the offending individuals in their respective positions, but the f*ckups that led to deaths were the responsibility of the commanders ON SITE AND OFF SITE, the ones that actually issued the orders. Let us also keep in mind the Clinton admin. had been in office only month when Koresh went all Jim Jones. These were Bush's boys.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Shall we proceed to the siege Geer?
I have studied WACO in depth and will enlighten you as needed. I also welcome your web generated, idiotic responses.
They do and will continue to show how overmatched you are on an issue that originated right in your own state.
Imagine that. A North Carolinian giving you a Texas history lesson. Bring it on Kemosabe. Judging from the quality of your past arguments, I expect little in the way of cogent argument or crediblity. You have already made up stuff so your pattern repeats.



Fire away.

[Edited by geerair on 04-19-2006 at 10:06 PM]

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by geerair
When a lawful warrant is served, then it is the duty of the citizens to comply.
Did you skip your civics class?



I believe you may have skipped the part of Civics that deals with proper arrest procedures.
It is also the responsibility of the arresting agency to act within the guidelines mandated for search and seizure.

Violent force was not a mandate given to ATF or any other government agency attempting to grandstand for funding.
In other words, they did not have to conduct themselves in the fashion that they conducted themselves. DUH.
ATF was found negligent by subcommittees investigating them and their actions in WACO. You got that point yet?

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by geerair
You have already made up stuff so your pattern repeats.


I would ask you to post what has been made up but I'm not going to let you get off topic on this one.
Stay the course geer, or else I'll continue on the thread without your rhetoric.

In the aftermath of the initial raid, the FBI was called in to help the pitiful ATF.
Problem was, FBI was clueless for the most part about BD and Koresh too.
Consequent subcommittees noted ATF and FBI resistance to deal with expert theological assistance, that is an entity that could negotiate with Koresh in a language he could understand, was a factor in the torching deaths and they criticized ATF for failing to try and understand Koresh's theology as a means of finding a peaceful solution to the siege.
That's enough for one night students.
Study the material and come back when you are better prepared.
There will be a quiz when you feel you're up to it.
LOL





[Edited by chillbilly on 04-19-2006 at 10:23 PM]

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by geerair
Let us also keep in mind the Clinton admin. had been in office only month when Koresh went all Jim Jones. These were Bush's boys.

By using this type of argument, you must then agree that the attacks on the U.S. on September 11, 2001 were the result of the Clinton administration....eh?

Now, I don't think this kind of blame game is effective or in any way constructive, but you can't play this game from both sides of the fence if you are going to play it.

With all this talk about the ATF I have concluded that ATF should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by samtheman

Originally posted by chillbilly
The T-Dept found fault with the conduct of it's agents when they investigated WACO and took remedial action against them.
The 2 commanders of the raid who took action despite knowing Koresh had been tipped off, were fired.
They were later re-instated and other ATF officials were forced to resign or suspended.


Exactly. Clinton or Reno may have installed the offending individuals in their respective positions, but the f*ckups that led to deaths were the responsibility of the commanders ON SITE AND OFF SITE, the ones that actually issued the orders. Let us also keep in mind the Clinton admin. had been in office only month when Koresh went all Jim Jones. These were Bush's boys.

The ATF just doeesn't pick up the phone and get Army Special Forces help in a civil matter. You really shouldn't post such foolish shi+

[samtheman]

Originally posted by James 3528

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by samtheman

Originally posted by chillbilly
The T-Dept found fault with the conduct of it's agents when they investigated WACO and took remedial action against them.
The 2 commanders of the raid who took action despite knowing Koresh had been tipped off, were fired.
They were later re-instated and other ATF officials were forced to resign or suspended.


Exactly. Clinton or Reno may have installed the offending individuals in their respective positions, but the f*ckups that led to deaths were the responsibility of the commanders ON SITE AND OFF SITE, the ones that actually issued the orders. Let us also keep in mind the Clinton admin. had been in office only month when Koresh went all Jim Jones. These were Bush's boys.

The ATF just doeesn't pick up the phone and get Army Special Forces help in a civil matter. You really shouldn't post such foolish shi+ Then tell us exactly HOW DID the special forces get involved? Who gave the orders? If you don't know then the whole basis of your argument is pure speculation

[geerair]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
By using this type of argument, you must then agree that the attacks on the U.S. on September 11, 2001 were the result of the Clinton administration....eh?Nah, Bush had his boys fully in place and functioning. That done, he took a long vacation.


Now, I don't think this kind of blame game is effective or in any way constructive, but you can't play this game from both sides of the fence if you are going to play it.Really? You have played it numerous times.

[geerair]

Originally posted by James 3528
The ATF just doeesn't pick up the phone and get Army Special Forces help in a civil matter. You really shouldn't post such foolish shi+ Yeah, Reagan had already let that horse out of the barn.

[chillbilly]

I see geer is left with his one sentence approach. This is the trademark of a man short on fact and relegated to hyperbole with low brow responses. Good entertainment geer. Keep it up.



ATF and FBI tactical teams were trained to use military style tactics. They were action oriented and were not happy about having to negotiate using tedious talks.
Law enforcement and scientific experts selected by the Justice Department to review the events concluded that "They had yet to meet a single sociologist or religious studies scholar that had the slightest doubt that the strategies adopted by the two agencies were destined for failure".
Reno was initially against the plan to end the standoff until the FBI answered her 2 word question of "Why now?", when she addrressed them. Their reasons were;
1- "There was no reason to believe Koresh would come out voluntarily".
Negotiators do believe that Koresh would have surrendered and in fact, he told them he had no intention of dying inside his compound and that his Seven Seals work was nearly complete.
2- "The health and safety of the children inside were in jeapordy".
It was determined by the subcommittees that there was never any reason to believe that the children inside were in danger.
3- "The hostage rescue team was getting fatigued".
Hardly a reason to necessitate tanks and torching, eh?
Finally, the plan to implement the military assault was approved by Reno after receiving the OK from slick willie.
Any more stupid questions sambo?

Their tactics to resolve the standoff were never peaceful and always harrassing and none of their tactics worked unless you include the torching of the compound and the subsequent murder of the innocents inside.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by James 3528
The ATF just doeesn't pick up the phone and get Army Special Forces help in a civil matter. You really shouldn't post such foolish shi+ Yeah, Reagan had already let that horse out of the barn.

LOL Reagan fault.

[chillbilly]

This is the type of one sentence idiocy you can expect from geer whenever he's engaged in a debate he knows nothing about.
Go sit at the childrens table and let the adults continue with this one geer. LOL!

[tonys]

...yeah...back to the Bible-Thump'n!

[James 3528]

Nope, just a debate on government strong arming and then a empty head like you shows up.

[chillbilly]

LOL! I've gotten more than I expected from this thread James. Never had so many belly laughs before.
Thanks for bringing it up.

These guys are (well, some of them) adept at debating religious concepts because they can't be proven.
But when the facts from a debate where all evidence is on the table are presented, they fail miserably.
One sentence idiocy and topic shifting attemps are the norm. In tony's case, the typical caveman UGH is the norm.

[tonys]

If your head is so full, why couldn't you handle those university entrance requirements?

Prefer to march at 5a.m. instead?

...that's honorable, simplistic, but very honorable.

[James 3528]

You should come with a interpreter. The thing is, no one would care either way.

[tonys]

I shut 'em,
I shut 'EM,
I SHUT 'EM DOWN.

Beat Down...

[geerair]

Originally posted by James 3528

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by James 3528
The ATF just doeesn't pick up the phone and get Army Special Forces help in a civil matter. You really shouldn't post such foolish shi+ Yeah, Reagan had already let that horse out of the barn.

LOL Reagan fault. Yep. He opened the posse commietis box.

[geerair]

Really, we could have ended the seige in a few days. All of these trailer trash popes are highly superstitious and believe in ghosts and goblins. In fact I believe Koresh thought he was either Stalin or Eleanor Roosevelt.

Why didn't they try exorcizing his arse? The goof already was convinced he was a vessel for spirits and was channelling Jim Jones.

Take advantage of the fact that the religously addicted are susceptible to rituals and other supernatural manifestations.

Send a crack pair of priests to to the FBI command post and start the whole process.

Wave the bible, shout a few mumbo-jumbo phrases, fire a few gallons of Holy Water at the compound. Koresh is so freaked he can't eat, develops pneumonia and refuses medical attention. Voila!!!! Koresh kicks the bucket, problem solved.


The surviving jesus nutjobs are demoralized at their leaders demise and surrender peacefully. With a little de-programming they can be turned into useful citizens, perhaps even employed as ushers for a Benny Hinn healing revival.


Added benefit; the compound remains intact, maybe even converted into a home for the religiously addicted.


We have had exorcism technology for hundreds of years and one can only reflect on the tragedy that could have been averted had we only thought of exorcism.





[Edited by geerair on 04-20-2006 at 04:40 PM]

[tonys]

I heard Benny Hinn likes'em tight and muscular...

[skrewt]

Originally posted by geerair
Really, we could have ended the seige in a few days. All of these trailer trash popes are highly superstitious and believe in ghosts and goblins. In fact I believe Koresh thought he was either Stalin or Eleanor Roosevelt.

Why didn't they try exorcizing his arse? The goof already was convinced he was a vessel for spirits and was channelling Jim Jones.

Take advantage of the fact that the religously addicted are susceptible to rituals and other supernatural manifestations.

Send a crack pair of priests to to the FBI command post and start the whole process.

Wave the bible, shout a few mumbo-jumbo phrases, fire a few gallons of Holy Water at the compound. Koresh is so freaked he can't eat, develops pneumonia and refuses medical attention. Voila!!!! Koresh kicks the bucket, problem solved.


The surviving jesus nutjobs are demoralized at their leaders demise and surrender peacefully. With a little de-programming they can be turned into useful citizens, perhaps even employed as ushers for a Benny Hinn healing revival.


Added benefit; the compound remains intact, maybe even converted into a home for the religiously addicted.


We have had exorcism technology for hundreds of years and one can only reflect on the tradgedy that could have been averted had we only thought of exorcism.






Freedom of speech, freedom of religion at it's finest.

[chillbilly]

Vintage geer. Let's change the subject, eh geer?
Don't look now...... your stupidity is showing.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tonys
[B]I heard Benny Hinn likes'em tight and muscular...




That would leave you out.

[chillbilly]

Here's the agenda for the attack that was conducted by FBI

Convince Reno that CS gas would present no health risk to the children inside the compound.
The plan was to spray the gas into the compoung gradually to give the Davidians time to evacuate with the stated objective being to "save the children", yet there were no gas masks availaible to fit the children. UH DUH.
I suppose the FBI didn't know that either.
As it turned out, there was never a realistic possibility that the assault would be gradual as Reno had promised.
Even the agent in charge admitted there was a 99% likelihood that response to the gas would be gunfire.
The "gradual assault" began immediately.
It took less than 10 minutes from the time the gas was injected into the compound for the government tanks to start demolishing the compound.

I sure hope Clinton, Reno, ATF and FBI feel their mission was accomplished.

[tonys]

Originally posted by chillbilly
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tonys
[B]I heard Benny Hinn likes'em tight and muscular...




That would leave you out.

make sure you go to temple this weekend and ask for 'forgiveness' for that one.

[chillbilly]

I will if you will.

[tonys]

Actually...I'm in the temple Every Day.

[chillbilly]

I don't care where you are Tony.


The 12 experts that were commissioned by the Justice department charachterized the Justice department's self investigation on WACO as a "total whitewash".
The department claimed the WACO operation a "success" even though all the patients died.

In the formal report given by Dr. Alan Stone and submitted to the Justice department, he was severely critical of the FBI and made it very clear that he disagreed with their notion that "nothing they did would have changed the outcome".
He also concluded that FBI "embarked on a misguided and punishing law enforcement strategy that contributed significantly to the tragic ending at WACO".

[tonys]

yes, very unfortunate.

I guess in the 'war on religious fundamentalism',
the WACO WACKOs were collateral damage.

[chillbilly]

There's no question in a reasonable man's mind that the ATF, FBI, Justice Dept., and Attorney General Reno bear some responsibility for WACO
Since the buck stops at the top, Clinton too, is culpable.
Slick Willie's first concern with Waco was not ascertaining the truth, but to protect himself politically.
He hid behind ole' Janet when public opinion was in doubt, then jumped on her bandwagon when opinion supported the raid.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tonys
[B]yes, very unfortunate.

I guess in the 'war on religious fundamentalism',
the WACO WACKOs were collateral damage.





A very foolish post tony.
You too, should not look.... your stupidity is showing.

[chillbilly]

No doubt Koresh and his assistants were guilty of some blatantly bad conduct, But the Davidians did nothing to precipitate the violent raid by ATF or the military assault by the FBI and innocent children died because of it.The government forced the action in both instances.

Yet, to this day, neither slick willie or janet reno express any regret. They still totally blame Koresh, even though the subcommittees that investigated Waco determined otherwise.

[tonys]

do you beLIEve Koresh was a prophet?

[chillbilly]

Are you kiddin? Hell no, tony.
Contrary to what you may think or perpetuate, I'm not like that. LOL!


I do believe they could have gotten him earlier and saved many lives though.

[tonys]

so...after 7 pages...

it was a error, right?

it was society's ...or the government's fault, that these waco-wackos shacked-up in an inbreeding sex-festival, disguised as a 'religion'.
And, it happen to turn-out deadly when they wouldn't put their bibles down and come out with their hands UP!?!?

...gee, what a liberal way of thinking?
Throw self-responsibility out the window.

golly-gee.

[chillbilly]

Oh jeez man, are you starting with the dumba$$ rhetoric again?
Read the FACTS that have been supplied in some of those 7 pages you just referred to. Get it? You have to read and comprehend what is written. More importantly, you have to find a response that is logical.
You want to charachterize my responses as "liberal", that's your problem. Those responses contain facts that you or that jack-ass geer,cannot refute. Facts that in retrospect, show who was to blame for killing innocent civilians you so callously write off as "inbreds".
What makes your dumb a$$ any better than anyone who died in that fiasco perpetuated by your beloved liberal crack-pots?
Be smart and do like your buddy geer did. Run and hide when you don't know what you're talking about instead of acting like a fool.

[tonys]

...very angry, even for a Bible-BOY.

[geerair]

Originally posted by tonys
so...after 7 pages...

it was a error, right?

it was society's ...or the government's fault, that these waco-wackos shacked-up in an inbreeding sex-festival, disguised as a 'religion'.
And, it happen to turn-out deadly when they wouldn't put their bibles down and come out with their hands UP!?!?

...gee, what a liberal way of thinking?
Throw self-responsibility out the window.

golly-gee. Give up? Why hell, Koresh hadn't even had a chance to fire off his artillery at live targets or command his zombies to empty their guns and save the last one for themselves.

He wasn't going to be cheated out that religious experience. Hell, why do you think the god told him to build a massive collection of weapons?


It would be like giving a kid a package of Black Cats and then not allowing him to touch them off.

Golly-gee indeed.

[James 3528]

It's not or never the point about what Koresh was. If he were a ACLU lawyer people like Geer and Baloney's would think it should be a national holiday. The point was the Bradley's and torching the place when their were kids inside. Their lives as you can see by Tony's dumb ass assertion were not worth anything. But if they had been older on death row and about to be executed, he would be out side chanting and burning a candle.

[tonys]

...actually, I kind-a prefer the concept of 'death-row' being a 4x6 ft room, no windows, and never getting out...as sort of 'real death penalty'

[skrewt]

He wasn't going to be cheated out that religious experience. Hell, why do you think the god told him to build a massive collection of weapons?

Now I know for sure you're just a clinton koolaid drinker.

Facts:
1.) They had fewer weapons per person than the average texas houshold.
2.) Their primary source of income was from gun shows, an inventory of weapons was to be expected.
3.) The ATF had undercover agents inside the compound and were never able to prove that crimes were being committed.
4.) At the beginning of Clintons term he was cleaning house of all federal law enforcement agencies and the ATF concocted this scheme to make a high profile bust that would ensure their funding.
5.) once the initial mission went wrong, they went directly into CYA mode.
6.) No survivor of Waco was ever convicted of a crime.

Like their lawyer said, "just because it's the police shooting at you, doesn't mean you're required to stand there and die."

I wish Koresh had come out because if he did the ATF wouldn't exist anymore.

[chillbilly]

Give up? Why hell, Koresh hadn't even had a chance to fire off his artillery at live targets or command his zombies to empty their guns and save the last one for themselves.
He wasn't going to be cheated out that religious experience. Hell, why do you think the god told him to build a massive collection of weapons?
It would be like giving a kid a package of Black Cats and then not allowing him to touch them off.
Golly-gee indeed.
__________________________________________________ _________

Your attempt at sarcastic humor "moves me not". LOL!
No way are you going to make this thread about religion.
You feel comfortable there, but your comfort level goes to zip when you have to supply facts about the government's hand in killing innocents at Waco.
You should find that childrens table and take a chair there because you sure as hell are short on any tangible fact here. Time to fess up Gilligan. You're done.

[chillbilly]

[i]Originally posted by geerair

Golly-gee indeed. [/B]





Lookie here guys...geer is reduced to being tony's parrott.
You've outdone yourself geer.

[geerair]

Originally posted by James 3528
It's not or never the point about what Koresh was. If he were a ACLU lawyer people like Geer and Baloney's would think it should be a national holiday.Yes, but with free beer and tacos.





torching the placeMyth



But if they had been older on death row and about to be executed, he would be out side chanting and burning a candle. Not me brother, I believe in Capital punishment.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by chillbilly
This is the type of one sentence idiocy you can expect from geer whenever he's engaged in a debate he knows nothing about.
Go sit at the childrens table and let the adults continue with this one geer. LOL!

Geers back to his usual contradiction of whatever is stated by others mode. Geer rarely has an original thought himself. That's why he keeps posting thread after thread about President Bush's popularity ratings. He can only work off of the ideas of others.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by geerair

torching the place

Myth

__________________________________________________ ________

Finally, gilligan has gotten something right on this one.
Government surveillance tapes revealed that the Davidians did start and spread the fires.
FBI transcripts revealed that when the fires were breaking out, FBI broadcasters on the scene uttered over the loudspeakers "David, you have had your 15 minutes of fame" and "Vernon is finished, he is no longer the Messiah".

ATF then proceeded to hoist the ATF flag in place of the Mt. Carmel flag. Complete conquest had been achieved.
The government's warlike attitude toward it's own citizens, many of them no doubt innocent, couldn't have been more evident. Didn't you see it on TV geer? You probably thought... "How noble and courageous these fine Americans are". What a bunch of cowards.

Also note that Reno offered to resign "accepting full responsibility" then promptly refused to admit to any fault.LOL!




[Edited by chillbilly on 04-20-2006 at 09:37 PM]

[geerair]

Originally posted by skrewt

Now I know for sure you're just a clinton koolaid drinker.

Facts:
1.) They had fewer weapons per person than the average texas houshold.The average Texas household has well fewer than 80+ people.



2.) Their primary source of income was from gun shows, an inventory of weapons was to be expected.Inventory? The more correct term would be arsenal.



3.) The ATF had undercover agents inside the compound and were never able to prove that crimes were being committed.That's odd seeing as how 8 surviving Davidians were convicted of crimes.



4.) At the beginning of Clintons term he was cleaning house of all federal law enforcement agencies and the ATF concocted this scheme to make a high profile bust that would ensure their funding.Speculation


6.) No survivor of Waco was ever convicted of a crime.8 of the surviving Branch Davividians were convicted on charges ranging from voluntary manslaughter to weapons violations.


Koolaid indeed.

[skrewt]

Originally posted by geerair

Originally posted by skrewt

Now I know for sure you're just a clinton koolaid drinker.

Facts:
1.) They had fewer weapons per person than the average texas houshold.The average Texas household has well fewer than 80+ people.



2.) Their primary source of income was from gun shows, an inventory of weapons was to be expected.Inventory? The more correct term would be arsenal.



3.) The ATF had undercover agents inside the compound and were never able to prove that crimes were being committed.That's odd seeing as how 8 surviving Davidians were convicted of crimes.



4.) At the beginning of Clintons term he was cleaning house of all federal law enforcement agencies and the ATF concocted this scheme to make a high profile bust that would ensure their funding.Speculation


6.) No survivor of Waco was ever convicted of a crime.8 of the surviving Branch Davividians were convicted on charges ranging from voluntary manslaughter to weapons violations.


Koolaid indeed.

I would say you drink the orange koolaid.
perhaps it's the lemonaid to avoid getting a mustache.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by geerair

At the beginning of Clintons term he was cleaning house of all federal law enforcement agencies and the ATF concocted this scheme to make a high profile bust that would ensure their funding.

Speculation




Speculation? Oh really?
Well, here are a couple of facts that squash your usual one-word speculation rebuttal.



1-Shortly after Clinton was elected and Reno was "installed", she fired all 93 of the country's U.S. Attorneys. On instructions from Clinton, (she claimed it was a joint decision but only someone like geer would believe that)she gave them 10 days to pack up.
An unprecedented and extreme move when you consider that these prosecutors are normally replaced only after their successors have been located, appointed and confirmed by the senate, eh geer?

2-Congressional appropriations hearings were scheduled 3 weeks after the initial ATF raid. The codename for the fiasco?... "Showtime". Who do you think the show was for geer?

[chillbilly]

[B][QUOTE][i]Originally posted by geerair


[QUOTE]6.) No survivor of Waco was ever convicted of a crime.


8 of the surviving Branch Davividians were convicted on charges ranging from voluntary manslaughter to weapons violations.


Well, there's a real shocker. The Justice Department under Clinton was reduced to a joke doing nothing but providing cover for ole' slick willie while he was president.
They had inserted their own prosecutors to serve his political ends.
They sure as hell had better have gotten some convictions.
What a laugher.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
1-Shortly after Clinton was elected and Reno was "installed", she fired all 93 of the country's U.S. Attorneys. On instructions from Clinton, (she claimed it was a joint decision but only someone like geer would believe that)she gave them 10 days to pack up.
An unprecedented and extreme move when you consider that these prosecutors are normally replaced only after their successors have been located, appointed and confirmed by the senate, And what does this have to do with Waco?


2-Congressional appropriations hearings were scheduled 3 weeks after the initial ATF raid. The codename for the fiasco?... "Showtime". Who do you think the show was for geer?Terminally weak. Your evidence is a name? Laughable. Come back when you have some solid evidence.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
Well, there's a real shocker. The Justice Department under Clinton was reduced to a joke doing nothing but providing cover for ole' slick willie while he was president.
They had inserted their own prosecutors to serve his political ends.
They sure as hell had better have gotten some convictions.
What a laugher.skrewt claimed no waco survivors were ever convicted. Who is right?

[chillbilly]

Originally posted by geerair
[B][QUOTE] Originally posted by chillbilly
1-Shortly after Clinton was elected and Reno was "installed", she fired all 93 of the country's U.S. Attorneys. On instructions from Clinton, (she claimed it was a joint decision but only someone like geer would believe that)she gave them 10 days to pack up.
An unprecedented and extreme move when you consider that these prosecutors are normally replaced only after their successors have been located, appointed and confirmed by the senate, And what does this have to do with Waco?




Well, DUH. It's shows motive by ATF to secure funding by means of grandstanding at WACO using a codename verified by field agents under testimony to have been changed from the original codename given to the operation, to obtain upcoming appropriations.
Was your pathetic one word response of "speculation" aimed at ATF's intent or the FACT that Clinton's administration was performing it's housecleaning ritual??
That's the problem with one word responses that you habitually give. No clarity. You had better find some game.

[Edited by chillbilly on 04-21-2006 at 12:15 PM]

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly


Well, DUH. It's shows motive by ATF to secure funding by means of grandstanding at WACO using a codename verified by field agents under testimony to have been changed from the original codename given to the operation, to obtain upcoming appropriations.You are ascribing intent based on a name change. Meets the definition of speculation.






Was your pathetic one word response of "speculation" aimed at ATF's intent or the FACT that Clinton's administration was performing it's housecleaning ritual??
That's the problem with one word responses that you habitually give. No clarity. You had better find some game.Ummmmmm.......talk to skrewt about clarity. He combined both to manufacture this speculation. I realize you conspiracy nutjobs all think alike but even you should have seen that.

[chillbilly]

Originally posted by geerair
[B][QUOTE] Originally posted by chillbilly

You are ascribing intent based on a name change. Meets the definition of speculation.

__________________________________________________ ______

Motive is what I'm describing and your attempt to minimize motive is well rehearsed.
I would hope you could understand an organization previously shrunk and funded responsibly, looking at ways to obtain more funding, but then I guess you would have to have "expert witness testimony" before accepting the premise of motive as well.





[QUOTE]Was your pathetic one word response of "speculation" aimed at ATF's intent or the FACT that Clinton's administration was performing it's housecleaning ritual??
That's the problem with one word responses that you habitually give. No clarity. You had better find some game.



Ummmmmm.......talk to skrewt about clarity. He combined both to manufacture this speculation. I realize you conspiracy nutjobs all think alike but even you should have seen that.
__________________________________________________ ________
Yeah uh huh. Conspiracies are not limited to republican admins there geer although you are more than quick to point them out. Pitiful.
Get back on topic and stop trying to deflect attention away from your obvious ignorance about Waco.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly

Motive is what I'm describing and your attempt to minimize motive is well rehearsed.You are describing an elaborate conspiracy based on nothing more than a change of name.




I would hope you could understand an organization previously shrunk and funded responsibly, looking at ways to obtain more funding, but then I guess you would have to have "expert witness testimony" before accepting the premise of motive as well.Not at all, merely more credible evidence than a name change.



Yeah uh huh. Conspiracies are not limited to republican admins there geer although you are more than quick to point them out. Perhaps you could list these Republican conspiracies I am quick to point out.



Get back on topic and stop trying to deflect attention away from your obvious ignorance about Waco.Pardon me but I was responding to skrewt's post which was about nothing but Waco.

[skrewt]

Let's get down to the base facts:

1.) ATF screwed up.
2.) Bill Clinton authorized the actions that resulted in the murder of the branch davidians.

end of story.

[tonys]

not quite...

3) religious fanatics did not value the life of an innocent in-bred child and allowed them to die.

(i.e. when the tanks show up - release ALL the children, you dumb-$%##s!)

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by geerair

You are describing an elaborate conspiracy based on nothing more than a change of name.
__________________________________________________ ____
Elaborate? Nothing elaborate about it. "Our department is underfunded". "We need more funding". We have the Koresh thing. Let's turn "Operation Trojan Horse into "Showtime". Hardly elaborate, especially when one considers the vast amount of elaborate schemes that the Clinton administration cooked up.

Lemme see....


1-Reno assisting Clinton in framing loyal White House employees so that the positions could be given to Hillary and Bill's cronies.

2- Reno complicit by it's inaction of whistle blower Linda Tripp's privacy rights. Hard to imagine a better way to cover Bill's a$$ there.

3-Shifted it's immigration policy and directed INS to accommodate the shift regarding the asylum claim of Elian Gonzalez. Seems Bill didn't want to deal with Castro's threat of another Mariel type boat lift so he trampled Elian's Miami relatives rights and brought the matter to a violent close traumatizing a kid who had seen quite enough of that in his innertube on the Florida Straits.

4- Subverted the very independent counsel whose appointment it had reccommended. You remember that one..right?

5- Inhaled illegal foreign campaign contributions and relaxed national security. Of course, Bill's the first guy to stab Bush in the back for problems he helped create.

Is there any reason to doubt conspiracies and motives with slick willie's admin? I think not.

Shall I go on??

[chillerout1]

1993 isn't that the same year the muslim terroist hit WTC the first time? while clinton was in office

[skrewt]

Originally posted by tonys
not quite...

3) religious fanatics did not value the life of an innocent in-bred child and allowed them to die.

(i.e. when the tanks show up - release ALL the children, you dumb-$%##s!)

It's not nice to Call Bill Clinton a religious fanatic.


The funny thing is that you don't see any problem with calling out the tanks on american civilians.
No wonder we don't have a leg to stand on when berating China on human rights.

[bigtime]

Heck, they tried to get the people to surrender and end the standoff for a long time. Over a month if I am remembering correctly. The people in the compound did not deserve the fate that they ended up with, but who is really to blame? I say the idiot who was leading them.

What is the moral of this story?

1. Liberal Democrat politicians are evil and want to kill innocent religous fanatics.

2. Dont be a sheep and let a lunatic decide your fate.

[James 3528]

3. Fuk the children.




BTW, The Sheriff told the Feds to let him go get the guy.

You usually don't factor in religion or leaders when making an arrest. But liberals tend to do that. Post Ruby Ridge and the same sniper there, I would be afraid to walk out into the open also

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bigtime
[B]Heck, they tried to get the people to surrender and end the standoff for a long time. Over a month if I am remembering correctly. The people in the compound did not deserve the fate that they ended up with, but who is really to blame? I say the idiot who was leading them.
__________________________________________________ ______
You do realize that ATF had opportunity to end the whole operation peacefully using undercover operatives who could have nabbed Koresh easily, 9 days before the first raid, right? What do you suggest is an adequate "time frame" for our government agencies to adhere to in order to keep innocents from being killed? What was the rush? Was anyone being threatened by Koresh before ATF and FBI used their military campaign to justify their misdeeds?
Read the previous facts and then return when you have accurate information.

What is the moral of this story?
It's not a story. It a real life occurence about real citizens who were massacred.

1. Liberal Democrat politicians are evil and want to kill innocent religous fanatics.
__________________________________________________ _______
Hardly. It's more about a legacy of corruption in a political administration that claimed to "feel our pain" while they served their own political ends and used the Justice department to cover their a$$es.

2. Dont be a sheep and let a lunatic decide your fate.
__________________________________________________ ______
Uh, does that apply to the innocent kids inside the compound as well who had no say in the matter?

[bigtime]

David Koresh claimed to be some sort of Messiah which I couldnt care less about. Things I have read state that he was having sex with girls as young as 12 which makes him an evil person who needs to be stopped with force as needed.

Without a doubt mistakes were made in how this was handled. Who would have thought government employees would make mistakes in such a simple case like this.

At the end of the day this was a tragedy that could have been avoided with the right people calling the shots. By the right people I do not mean democrat or republican, liberal or conservative, just smart. The blame still lies totaly on one evil man.

[chillbilly]

No sir. You're wrong. There's some blame to go around for the lives that were lost.
Koresh was partly to blame. So was ATF, FBI, Janet Reno and ultimately, Bill Clinton.
There is factual evidence in the record that points to errors made by those conducting the initial raid and the subsequent assault on the Waco compound, some of it coming directly from field agents and undercover operatives that testified before subcommittees.
For the most part, the Clinton administration and the Justice department got it's wish on the Waco fiasco.
They got their ATM funding, disposed of Koresh,(at the expense of innocents),and neatly shed themselves of blame in the public opinion arena.
But hey, who cares...right? I mean, after all...they were only religious fanatics and inbreds...right??

In the immortal words of a wise man....
"Does it take a death to learn what a life is worth"??

[James 3528]

Originally posted by bigtime
David Koresh claimed to be some sort of Messiah which I couldnt care less about. Things I have read state that he was having sex with girls as young as 12 which makes him an evil person who needs to be stopped with force as needed.

Without a doubt mistakes were made in how this was handled. Who would have thought government employees would make mistakes in such a simple case like this.

At the end of the day this was a tragedy that could have been avoided with the right people calling the shots. By the right people I do not mean democrat or republican, liberal or conservative, just smart. The blame still lies totaly on one evil man.

Wrong. Under Texas law the only girl the government could of pinned this on was at the age of consent if it had happened. The problem is, child molesting does not fall under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Those 20 children that died were at the hands of the Clinton administration who's their blood is on. The local sheriff says the Branch Davidians were "good people." They weren't insane, they were Christians. The "compound" was a "church." Their "cult leader" like the press circulated was just a Bible-thumping preacher.

Ask yourself, did this rise to the level of needing this for the charge of child molesting that was never proved? This is a M1 Abrams main battle tank at the compound. ATF does not own or operate one. The US Army does.
http://www.waco93.com/images2/tankfire3.jpg

In that burning building are Americans who among them are 20 children who died. You may not like their religion or what ever and one day someone may not like yours.

Blame still lay with one evil man? No way, the blame lays with people walking around that murdered them and a short time later returned little Elian safely to communist Cuba.

[geerair]

Originally posted by chillbilly
1-Reno assisting Clinton in framing loyal White House employees so that the positions could be given to Hillary and Bill's cronies.

2- Reno complicit by it's inaction of whistle blower Linda Tripp's privacy rights. Hard to imagine a better way to cover Bill's a$$ there.

3-Shifted it's immigration policy and directed INS to accommodate the shift regarding the asylum claim of Elian Gonzalez. Seems Bill didn't want to deal with Castro's threat of another Mariel type boat lift so he trampled Elian's Miami relatives rights and brought the matter to a violent close traumatizing a kid who had seen quite enough of that in his innertube on the Florida Straits.

4- Subverted the very independent counsel whose appointment it had reccommended. You remember that one..right?

5- Inhaled illegal foreign campaign contributions and relaxed national security. Of course, Bill's the first guy to stab Bush in the back for problems he helped create.

Is there any reason to doubt conspiracies and motives with slick willie's admin? I think not.

Hey, I think Bill had a hand in the Lindberg Baby kidnapping as well.

[chillbilly]

Is that all you got? I don't blame you though. You've been totally outclassed on this thread since you posted your first feebile response.

I challenge you to show some fact that refutes the above assertions.