Labor unions members your leaders are robing you

[hvacpope]

We all know how corrupted labor unions are, I feel pity for the poor lazy unions members, your leaders are having a blast in your nickel.

http://www.unionfacts.com/


Union Dues Spent on Golf, Cadillac, Resorts, and Even Wal-Mart
New Union LM-2 Financial Information Available and Searchable on UnionFacts.com

4/3/06

Washington, DC – Revised financial reporting requirements by the Department of Labor (DOL) are exposing union leaders’ spending habits with unprecedented clarity. Last Friday (3/31), most major unions filed their LM-2 financial disclosure forms with the government, and jaw-dropping expenditures are already easy to find.
Using the search function on http://www.unionfacts.com, making sense of the mountains of union financial data is simple. A preliminary look revealed the following:


Nearly $1.5 million in union members’ dues money was spent on golf.
The Ironworkers AFL-CIO Local Union 40 spent $52,879 on a new Cadillac for a retiring president.
$7.9 million of employee dues money went to resort expenditures.
The Boilermakers AFL-CIO Local 374 spent $8,800 of employee dues money on Christmas gifts at Wal-Mart, despite the labor movement’s smear campaign against the retailer.
Between six AFL-CIO locals, over $50,000 of employee dues money was spent at a single D.C. steakhouse.
The AFL-CIO alone spent over $49 million on political activities and lobbying—much of which is spent quietly on in-kind political expenditures like pro-Kerry brochures and websites. That’s almost $20 million more than it spent on representation activities.
“The increased transparency of union spending will be especially meaningful to union members who are getting their first candid look at how their mandatory union dues are spent by labor officials,” said Richard Berman executive director of the Center for Union Facts. “The 40% of union members who voted for George W. Bush might be interested to know just how much of their dues money went to support John Kerry.”

To learn more visit: http://www.UnionFacts.com. For further information or to arrange an interview please call Sarah Longwell at (202) 463-7106.



[Edited by hvacpope on 04-10-2006 at 08:19 PM]

[chillbilly]

I agree with most of this.
I feel there was a time when labor unions were effective and needed. For the most part, that time has passed.
Labor unions are a big reason why many corporations are taking their businesses overseas and south.
The are simply pricing the American worker out of the global market.
Of course, there will always be a liberal or two that will pronounce that president Bush is responsible for businesses leaving the country, but that's another story.
Unions tend to sacrifice quality in the name of quantity.
Look at what is happening at GM. They spend a dime on every dollar to pay for FORMER employees!

[NormChris]

When I was a member of the NEA (teachers union) most of my dues went for the political party I personally opposed.

Not a thing I could do about it.

[tinner73]

i guess i'll just post the norm....it's all bull$hit from the right wing. the unions do no wrong.

hvacdope..i don't know about lazy...but definately not poor. ANYTIME you'd like to compare paystubs/bennies.


chilly..didn't we just go over this? http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=100808 the jobs leave because you can't compete with the cost overseas.. union or non.
please don't EVEN start with the quality. you think the wall of shame is full of union trained people. or non-union? union apprenticeships are 5 years. 10,000 hours. what's your vo-tech school?? people ACTUALLY FAIL OUT OF THE UNION APPRENTICESHIP. anyone ever fail out of vo-tech? doubt it, the school needs the tuition. when the union weeds out the stupid apprentices where do they land? oh yea, they work non-union. then they come on here and complain about the unions...i'm talking to you hvacDOPE. pleeease. union shops have the highest skilled, highest paid, most talented people in the trade. we set the bar.

[trane]

Originally posted by tinner73
union shops have the highest skilled, highest paid, most talented people in the trade. we set the bar. [/B]

__________________________________________________ _________

I'm not going to argue with anything you said but you did forget to add they have SOME of the best at figuring out how to work 4 hours and claim 8.

[tinner73]

you have to be really good for that.

[hvacpope]

Originally posted by tinner73
i guess i'll just post the norm....it's all bull$hit from the right wing. the unions do no wrong.

hvacdope..i don't know about lazy...but definately not poor. ANYTIME you'd like to compare paystubs/bennies.


chilly..didn't we just go over this? http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=100808 the jobs leave because you can't compete with the cost overseas.. union or non.
please don't EVEN start with the quality. you think the wall of shame is full of union trained people. or non-union? union apprenticeships are 5 years. 10,000 hours. what's your vo-tech school?? people ACTUALLY FAIL OUT OF THE UNION APPRENTICESHIP. anyone ever fail out of vo-tech? doubt it, the school needs the tuition. when the union weeds out the stupid apprentices where do they land? oh yea, they work non-union. then they come on here and complain about the unions...i'm talking to you hvacDOPE. pleeease. union shops have the highest skilled, highest paid, most talented people in the trade. we set the bar.

This is the first time I hear about anyone failing the union apprenticeship,the thing is nothing but a joke, I guess you got some extra-dumbasses in you neck of the woods,I know a few talented union techs and they are all fed up with the politics and crap that the so called union leaders put the through. Unions dont provide incentives for the workers to better themselves, you get pay based on seniority,technical ability doesnt count,You guys are like a dinosaur, fighting against the inevitable demise, years of mismanagement and increasingly poor business practices sooner than later will seal you coffin once for all.

[johnl45]

Originally posted by hvacpope

Originally posted by tinner73
i guess i'll just post the norm....it's all bull$hit from the right wing. the unions do no wrong.

hvacdope..i don't know about lazy...but definately not poor. ANYTIME you'd like to compare paystubs/bennies.


chilly..didn't we just go over this? http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=100808 the jobs leave because you can't compete with the cost overseas.. union or non.
please don't EVEN start with the quality. you think the wall of shame is full of union trained people. or non-union? union apprenticeships are 5 years. 10,000 hours. what's your vo-tech school?? people ACTUALLY FAIL OUT OF THE UNION APPRENTICESHIP. anyone ever fail out of vo-tech? doubt it, the school needs the tuition. when the union weeds out the stupid apprentices where do they land? oh yea, they work non-union. then they come on here and complain about the unions...i'm talking to you hvacDOPE. pleeease. union shops have the highest skilled, highest paid, most talented people in the trade. we set the bar.

This is the first time I hear about anyone failing the union apprenticeship,the thing is nothing but a joke, I guess you got some extra-dumbasses in you neck of the woods,I know a few talented union techs and they are all fed up with the politics and crap that the so called union leaders put the through. Unions dont provide incentives for the workers to better themselves, you get pay based on seniority,technical ability doesnt count,You guys are like a dinosaur, fighting against the inevitable demise, years of mismanagement and increasingly poor business practices sooner than later will seal you coffin once for all. You don't know what you’re talking about just another anti-union Bushbot or you would know the union crooks are nothing compared too the corporate and Whitehouse crooks here in the good old USA.

[hvacpope]

This is the first time I hear about anyone failing the union apprenticeship,the thing is nothing but a joke, I guess you got some extra-dumbasses in you neck of the woods,I know a few talented union techs and they are all fed up with the politics and crap that the so called union leaders put the through. Unions dont provide incentives for the workers to better themselves, you get pay based on seniority,technical ability doesnt count,You guys are like a dinosaur, fighting against the inevitable demise, years of mismanagement and increasingly poor business practices sooner than later will seal you coffin once for all. [/B][/QUOTE]You don't know what you’re talking about just another anti-union Bushbot or you would know the union crooks are nothing compared too the corporate and Whitehouse crooks here in the good old USA. [/B][/QUOTE]

its that the best you can do? well, yeah they are crooks, but no too bad, blah...blah...blah.. the whitehouse, Emron, they're worst blah..blah

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by johnl45
You don't know what you’re talking about just another anti-union Bushbot or you would know the union crooks are nothing compared too the corporate and Whitehouse crooks here in the good old USA.

So, you acknoweledge that the unions leaders "are" crooks, but its ok...because they are not as good as being crooks as corporate leaders and polititcians are?

Well; that explains the dramatic drop in union membership :D

[chillbilly]

LOL! I didn't go to a 'vo-tech" school tinner.
I went through an apprenticeship with a mandatory 2 year college associate's degree required through my local college and on the job training.
Part of the reason America's biggest companies are dumping thousands of employees is directly related to management giving in to ludicrous union demands. What a joke.
I'm sure there are some very competent union employees.
I just don't happen to know any.
I had to train 3 machinists and 3 control room operators through union stewardship to assume my responsibilities and my job! What a joke! 5 out of the 6 failed!
The last needed 6 months of extra training to be able to "bump" me from a job I qualified for in 2 months for no other reason than he had seniority over me. WTF is that?
I'll tell you what it is...It is sacrificing quality for quantity. You see anything wrong with that picture?
Oh no, you wouldn't.

[Edited by chillbilly on 04-11-2006 at 04:35 PM]

[James 3528]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by johnl45
You don't know what you’re talking about just another anti-union Bushbot or you would know the union crooks are nothing compared too the corporate and Whitehouse crooks here in the good old USA.

So, you acknoweledge that the unions leaders "are" crooks, but its ok...because they are not as good as being crooks as corporate leaders and polititcians are?

Well; that explains the dramatic drop in union membership :D

Certainly you knew Johnny reached space cadet status long before this?

[hvacker]

I remember when the President of the Navajo Nation was *****ed at for having a little Cessna twin. FGS he's president of the Navajo Nation. Bush gets a big jet.

The point is just this. Unions sell a product. The highest trained journeymen in the trades.

Business in America is often sold on golf courses. How many of the business owners on this site do the very same thing.

While it may all look like fun and games it's really business.

One last thing... when something bad happens with a Union people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But when it happens in Washington nobody ever hears that.

There will be a time when you that think you made it on your own might come to the reaiization that you made it on the backs of the union and if the time comes when the Union is gone I'd like to see the food fight to see who gets anything.

[trane]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hvacker


There will be a time when you that think you made it on your own might come to the reaiization that you made it on the backs of the union and if the time comes when the Union is gone I'd like to see the food fight to see who gets anything.

__________________________________________________ ___

Please explain this in detail.

[chillbilly]

Originally posted by Tinner
we set the bar.
__________________________________________________ ______
Don't you mean... We sit in the bar? LOL! Just kidding.

Posted by hvacker

I remember when the President of the Navajo Nation was *****ed at for having a little Cessna twin. FGS he's president of the Navajo Nation. Bush gets a big jet.
__________________________________________________ ______
Does the President of the Navajo Nation pay taxes?
More importantly, what does the president of the Navajo nation preside over? No disrespect to the Navajo's, but the responsibilities of both of these men are vastly different.


The point is just this. Unions sell a product. The highest trained journeymen in the trades.
__________________________________________________ ______
What evidence do you have to bring to the table that would indicate that a union guy is more highly trained than tradepeople who are not unionized? That is a myth, no doubt perpetuated by the same people tinner gets his slogans from....namely, as you suggest, SALESMEN.





One last thing... when something bad happens with a Union people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But when it happens in Washington nobody ever hears that.
__________________________________________________ ______
Are you kidding? Anything that happens in Washington is scoured like a frying pan in a chinese restaraunt.
Union hierarchy has done quite well for it's members, no doubt about it. A bit too well, it appears.
I worked for the United Steelworkers for 6 years.
My experience as a shop steward wasn't a good one so I guess I'm speaking badly about them in general based on my experiences only.

[Edited by chillbilly on 04-11-2006 at 08:24 PM]

[evildberg]

hvacpope,

Remember as your sitting on your front porch in hillbilly union hating land that the only side of this trade that actually tries to lobby to change laws for the safety and well being of the people in this trade is the union side. Remember that the union side sets the wages in this trade. Ever hear of prevailing wage law? Ever worked on a prevailing wage job?

Did you have any idea the extent that the unions go to raise the bar in reguards to laws and codes? There is currently a battle here in this state with non-union companies trying to lower the required mechanical code requirements because they can't figure out how to properly instal equipment or pass tests.

Did you ever wonder why the union contractors do so well even in areas mostly non union? Do you wonder why customers call them to do the work?

Could it perhaps be the 7 years required school to be a journeyman?

Could it be that licences are actually required weather you are in service or construction?

Last I checked it takes 0 years to be a non union tech and no licences.

Personally I'd rather pay $300 a year in dues and take home another 10-20 thousand plus benifits.

The issue brought up on pay is also a joke. Do you think that pay is the same among all techs in the same company at a union shop? Its not.

Unions aren't perfect but they sure are doing a heck of a lot more for the advancement of their members and for all hvac techs than you, your boss and whatever little hvac groups you belong to.

Obviously you have an issue with unions for what reason I don't know. I know you can come up with a lot of reasons in your head but back here in reality, We are going to keep putting out quality work, expertise, education, licencing, skilled workers and techs that are second to none.

Unions will continue to thrive in the HVAC industry reguarless of our wages and rates being higher than the non union competitor because we produce a quality service to our customer that beats the competition. If we didn't we wouldn't be here and there wouldn't be a shop left in town. Last time I checked we held 40% of the market share in this area. Which could be equated to consumers of all products and services. 60% care about nothing but cost, quality doesn't matter. The other 40% care about their facilities and would rather pay $10 an hour more for a service call and know its taken care of than have to worry about it and have a guy come back twice to fix it.

If I were to get a call back on a service call I would have some serious explaining to do to my boss.

I hope you enjoy working for the "economical alternative"

[jrn wireman]

It's been a while since I've posted here but I couldn't pass this up. There is only one reason non-union people rant on and on about union members and their unions, and to put it into one word JEALOUSY. They are jealous of union wages, union health care and union pensions.
One thing about union members that non-union workers don't understand is that we collectively bargain with our contractors. Porposal during negotiations are brought back to the union body and are voted on. We know exactly what we are worth, you on the other hand either, have no idea what your worth or, are to wimpy and spineless to find out what your employer is willing to pay. And your wages are somewhat less than union wages, gee I wonder why.
This isn't about knowledge, it's about courage. It's about standing together with people just like yourself, insisting that your laboring for others pay a wage that you can live on. That you can not only feed your family but provide them with health care and educate them to a better future.
So please, stop crying about unions and how over payed we are and get some balls. Go ask your boss for a raise. I'll bet you won't get what people who collectively bargain get, for their familys.

[hvacpope]

First, there isn’t second hand story here, I played the union game for 6 years, and its been 12 years since I told the local unions cronies “kiss my ass”, I make more money than any of you, my dental, medical and retirement plans are way better that what the union is currently offering, and I work all year-round, you got nothing that I wish I had, my biggest issues with you people, emerged from those frustrating times when I was forced by the circumstances to share a job site with unionized shops, anyone here know how annoying you guys can be. if you side is so great , why don’t you mind your own business and leave us non-union alone?
As far as all your bragging about having the best-trained techs and 7 years journeyman and all that crap, you know what you got, there is nothing to be proud of, and how many “2 ears scabs” do you know? For those of you that aren’t familiar with the so-called two-year scab program, it’s just another scam crafted by union leaders to make shop owner pay journeyman wages to relative’s and friends, too lazy to waste five years in an apprenticeship joke

[chillbilly]

Jealousy huh? That's a laugher. Getting away from unions was a step in the right direction for me, that's for sure.
Their 'something for nothing' attitude breeds corruption from the top all the way down to the rank and file guy who can't get to work on time yet expects his union rep to get him paid anyway.
As for the wage jealousy reasoning...another laugher.
Privately owned companies that are managed with integrity and do not have to deal with union obstruction pay much better than their union counterparts.
Hell, I'm sure not complaining about being self employed.
I'd sweep the streets before I worked for another company that negotiated with unions.

[hvacpope]

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1231/adchainfence5cn.jpg

[RoBoTeq]

The way you can tell how jeolous merit shop workers are of unionized workers is by how many are flocking to the union halls trying to become members :D

Union membership has certainly not been in a nose dive decline over the past 50 years because workers "want" to be unionized.

Hell, if I want some organization to take care of my every whim while I don't have to prove myself or better myself, I would rather go live in a Communist country where the union attitude has been better perfected.

[daytonafan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tinner73
[B]i guess i'll just post the norm....it's all bull$hit from the right wing. the unions do no wrong.

hvacdope..i don't know about lazy...but definately not poor. ANYTIME you'd like to compare paystubs/bennies.


Hate to join this old pissing match but I would love to compare paystubs with you Tinner. I would also love to compare bennies. As far as the quality of workers in the union..... BULL****!!!!!!!!!! I am not going to deny non-union hackery but I have seen union hackery first hand. You guys kill me with the generalization that all non union shops have low skilled, low paid, hack artists working for them. I have no problem with the unions offering what they do and I understand why guys work in union shops. Most of my family members work union jobs. Brother, uncle, brother in laws etc... Brainwashing is bad on either side of this issue. I CHOOSE to work non union for several fundamental reasons I would not expect you to understand. I make more on the hour than union scale, I have company paid health benefits for me and all of my dependants, 3 weeks paid vacation plus 6 sick days per year, several different retirement (NOT 401K) plans to choose from, take home van, and a Christmas bonus that equals about 3 months pay. I have union friends and family memebers that call me to ask how to work on certain equipment. You see, Tinner...you guys aren't always the highest paid. Your wages do not "set" or "dictate" mine. I can work on anything you guys can. My work does not help fund militant left wing hatemongers. Go ahead and attack me Tinner, I don't care. You are a brainwashed, misguided, uninformed, union apologist. Every man is capable of high wages and decent benefits if he applies himself. Every man is born with a desire to learn and grow. Unions make sure you grow as much as THEY want. Keep drinking the Kool- Aid buddy, it's got you this far.

[James 3528]

You people need to learn how to write outside the quote brackets.

[tinner73]

Originally posted by daytonafan
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tinner73
[B]i guess i'll just post the norm....it's all bull$hit from the right wing. the unions do no wrong.

hvacdope..i don't know about lazy...but definately not poor. ANYTIME you'd like to compare paystubs/bennies.


Hate to join this old pissing match but I would love to compare paystubs with you Tinner. I would also love to compare bennies. As far as the quality of workers in the union..... BULL****!!!!!!!!!! I am not going to deny non-union hackery but I have seen union hackery first hand. You guys kill me with the generalization that all non union shops have low skilled, low paid, hack artists working for them. I have no problem with the unions offering what they do and I understand why guys work in union shops. Most of my family members work union jobs. Brother, uncle, brother in laws etc... Brainwashing is bad on either side of this issue. I CHOOSE to work non union for several fundamental reasons I would not expect you to understand. I make more on the hour than union scale, I have company paid health benefits for me and all of my dependants, 3 weeks paid vacation plus 6 sick days per year, several different retirement (NOT 401K) plans to choose from, take home van, and a Christmas bonus that equals about 3 months pay. I have union friends and family memebers that call me to ask how to work on certain equipment. You see, Tinner...you guys aren't always the highest paid. Your wages do not "set" or "dictate" mine. I can work on anything you guys can. My work does not help fund militant left wing hatemongers. Go ahead and attack me Tinner, I don't care. You are a brainwashed, misguided, uninformed, union apologist. Every man is capable of high wages and decent benefits if he applies himself. Every man is born with a desire to learn and grow. Unions make sure you grow as much as THEY want. Keep drinking the Kool- Aid buddy, it's got you this far.

Daytona....i will type this slowly so you can read it. it is quite apparent that you either do not read well or maybe you can't comphrehend what you read. either way i feel for you.

first off..hvacDOPE started this stupid thread. thank her. she refered to the "poor and lazy" union workers.
then Chilly-the-hillbilly made the OUTRAGEOUS claim about quality. THEN i chimed in.
i never said that all non-union shops had "low skilled, low paid, hack artists working for them." that was the DOPE... try to comprehend. what i did say was.. "where do all the guys go that failed out of our program?" they can't make it and go non-union. if that truth hurts..tough $hit. i know there are lots of quality non-union guys out there and lots of hacks too.
you state that you make over union scale...well that's just great. so do i. maybe what YOU don't understand is..that is the minimum we make, no less. one man's ceiling is another man's floor.(have someone explain that for you) feel free to post your package numbers. i've posted our package numbers before. then we'll see who commands the top dollar.
i also have FREE access to lots of night school classes if i so desire. as far as working on anything we do, i have 4-60 ton package Carrier's on the roof tied to VAV and FPBs with coils...can i call you with questions?
time to put up or shut up.


leftwingers are hippies...the rightwingers hate everybody.:rolleyes:

Robo..there is a waiting list to get into my hall. you don't just roll up and say "i'm ready." i waited on the list for over 2 years before i got into the apprenticeship.

[bootlen]

I've done everything the Bible says - even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!

What "stuff" would that be?

[tinner73]

what do you mean? doesn't the bible contradict itself.








..reeling you in......

[hvacpope]

tinner, enjoy it while it last, the gravy train is about to stop, in the good side of things, wal-mart is looking for good guys like you,who knows, few years down the road and you could start a union there, good luck.

[tinner73]

who's derailing the train? you? Wal-Mart? guys like you shop there. i think you can buy a nice dress from China for $9 for yourself.

[Edited by tinner73 on 04-12-2006 at 10:55 PM]

[geerair]

double post

[geerair]

Originally posted by tinner73
what do you mean? doesn't the bible contradict itself.








..reeling you in...... :D :D

[chillerout1]

I'm going to throw my two cents worth in. different locals have different agreements to all you nonunion techs I' wont bad mouth you unless you do a crappy job same goes for union members .I have worked nonunion and union I 've seen crappy work from both. It is not the club you are in that dictates how good you are at your job it is your attitude and your willingness to learn new technology as the field changes. I find that being in the union in my area is better than non because of wages and benefits even though that is rapidly changing as companies are becoming more willing to pay better for quality people so I say whatever works best for you do it.As far as work 4 bill 8 union contract says if you work more than 4 you get paid for 8 and contractors agreed to it nobody held gun to their head of course I've known non union guys show up on job work 2 and leave and go home and bill all day to job. But remember to thank the unions because you didnt have to go to work when you were eight years old and for that ot pay after 40 hours.I will agree that some unions have gotten greedy but so have corporate execs the problem being that when corporate execs get greedythe employees doing the work lose everything just look at the current list of bankruptcies .execs walked away with millions in pay and bonuses. wal mart #1 on list of most employees on taxpayer funded insurance and they have more profit margin than oil companies can even think about

[uncle buck]

I work in Super-market refrigeration. I make $29.70 per hour plus health insurance,time and one half after 4:30 pm and saturdays. "DOUBLE-TIME" on Sudays. I have "22" years of experience in this Trade. If I continue with the over-time I have been getting this year I will Reach $100,000 this year. My health insurance is fully paid by my employer. The "NON-UNION" companies which compete with my boss are "UN-WILLING" to Pay more than $25 per hour and a single guy has to pay $50 per week towards inferior health insurance, and only 4 holidays. The way I see it The non-union guys are getting taken advantage of.

[hvacpope]

Originally posted by tinner73
who's derailing the train? you? Wal-Mart? guys like you shop there. i think you can buy a nice dress from China for $9 for yourself.

[Edited by tinner73 on 04-12-2006 at 10:55 PM]

Before you start making accusations about my shopping habits, read the union facts reports, your union brothers and sisters are the ones spending big buck at Wal-mart.
Cross-dressing is fun, you ought try it some time.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by hvacpope

Cross-dressing is fun, you ought try it some time.


Being Scots-Irish we get to call them kilts :D

[scrogdog]

Labor unions members your leaders are robing you

I suspect that Robo would say that this is ok, as long as they do not start DIS-robing. ;)

[hvacker]

The point I'd make to those that are nonunion is simply if the Unions go, the bar will drop like a rock both in wages and bennies. You should all thank Unions as when they negociate wages and bennies it indirectly effects you and your livelyhood.

Once the bar is raised we all benefit.

Just don't fool yourself that you made it on your own.
There were others before you willing to sacrifice for a better life.


One last thing to say is people that have never been in business have little understanding just how it works. If you ***** because the owner of your company is playing golf while you have to work you might not understand much about how business actually happens. For instance, who is he playing with? A supplier, a customer, someone that just might provide work for you?

If you think having a great product is all it takes you'd be wrong.

[daytonafan]

O.K. Tinner, I am stupid, you got me. Did you offer a challenge about comparing wages and bennies? Can somebody really make over union scale? Thanks for explaining that. My best friend is a Plumber/Steamfitter who earns 13.00 per hour over scale. My wife's brother is a union HVAC tech who also earns well over scale. Why do you have to resort to treating me like a boob? I was simply responding to a remark about wages and bennies. I imagine you aren't a homosexual so when you ask me to compare "packages" I assume you mean compensation. I thought I covered that before but here goes.. I'll type slow...I earn over what scale is. (Currently, Journeymen pay is set at around 29.00 per hour in my area). I have comprehensive health insurance for me, my wife and all of my children. I paid 0$ for the birth of my last child. This insurance includes life insurance on me. It also includes benefits that help pay my bills if I am hurt or sick and can't work. If I work more than 4 hours a day, I get paid for 8. I get time and a half for anything over 8 hours per day. I get double time for any after hours service or weekend service calls. I receive a year end bonus that added another $10.00 per hour onto my pay this year. In case you wonder how I arrived at this figure, its like this -amount of bonus divided by the amount of hours I worked equals X. Have one of your union buddies explain this to you if he's not out picketing someone elses job tommorow. I get paid for Christmas, Thanksgiving, 4th, Memorial Day, Labor Day and I always get the Monday following Easter off with pay (for clarification purposes Tinner, Easter is always on a Sunday.) I get 3 weeks PAID vacation per year with an additional 6 sick days (also, PAID). I have a brand new van that I am allowed to drive home. I get $500.00 per year to spend on clothes and boots. I have yet to pay for 1 tool, instrument or guage. (All purchased by the company) Last year, as a reward for completing a huge commercial project on time and on budget I recieved an all expenses paid Alaskan cruise for the wife and I. (We had to provide our own spending money dammit). My employer has about 10 different retirement packages for us to choose from that can be as aggressive or as low risk as we choose. I haven't been laid off or even been slow since I started here in 1992. My boss pays for any continuing education that I choose to take as long as it pertains to HVAC. Consequently, I have obtained several certifications and a college degree. (Total tuition cost to me: $0) I know the classes werent taught in union halls by beer bellied, Republican bashing, "Proud to be Union" bumper sticker having rejects but I can't have everything now can I Tinner? I'm sure you are a great tech. You deserve everything you have because you are a skilled tradesman. It sounds like the union has been good to you. I'm sure you are a fine individual and I meant you no disrespect but I have a comprehensive "package" that your union could never match. I'm sorry if this pisses you off. I'm sorry that you think I'm an idiot. Most of all I'm sorry that we obviously share similar interests but can never see eye to eye because you have been brainwashed and misguided. I would love to help you with any questions you have on your 60 ton units but I'm sure you can handle them and I am not giving my number out where all these zealots can see it. Don't want to end up next to Hoffa.

[RoBoTeq]

Thinking that non-union workers are stupid hacks working for minimum wage is the only way the unions can brainwash the "oh so few" remaining lackies to actually believe that unions are a good thing.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by hvacker
The point I'd make to those that are nonunion is simply if the Unions go, the bar will drop like a rock both in wages and bennies. You should all thank Unions as when they negociate wages and bennies it indirectly effects you and your livelyhood.
Once the bar is raised we all benefit.




This is the exact reasoning that is screwed up.
How do we all benefit if wages are higher?
Once the proverbial "bar" is raised, you'll be looking for another job because yours has been exported in favor of cheaper labor.

[chillbilly]

Originally posted by chillbilly
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by hvacker
The point I'd make to those that are nonunion is simply if the Unions go, the bar will drop like a rock both in wages and bennies. You should all thank Unions as when they negociate wages and bennies it indirectly effects you and your livelyhood.
Once the bar is raised we all benefit.




This is the exact reasoning that is screwed up.
How do we all benefit if wages are higher?
Once the proverbial "bar" is raised, you'll be looking for another job because yours has been exported in favor of cheaper labor. Or worse yet, illegals will be coming into YOUR back yard to take YOUR job.

[viceman]

tinner don't waste your time with hvacpoop. he obviously is a guy that couldn't run with the big dogs and blames his failures on the union. he is probably happy with cleaning 3 ton condensors and thinks he is a genious when he fixes aunt marthas furnace. a real man takes responsibility for his own successes and failures. some people find comfort in blaming their short comings on others. don't be sucked into these ridiculous arguments.
i've seen these guys come and go over the years. we know the truth-we drive the industry. ignore the ankle biters.

[hvacpope]

Originally posted by viceman
tinner don't waste your time with hvacpoop. he obviously is a guy that couldn't run with the big dogs and blames his failures on the union. he is probably happy with cleaning 3 ton condensors and thinks he is a genious when he fixes aunt marthas furnace. a real man takes responsibility for his own successes and failures. some people find comfort in blaming their short comings on others. don't be sucked into these ridiculous arguments.
i've seen these guys come and go over the years. we know the truth-we drive the industry. ignore the ankle biters.

I’m immune to cheap shot in general, don’t waste your time making things up, cause I don’t care, you don’t know me at all and I’m not going to tell you about what I do or the things I own, I pity you fool, you are so sadly misguided.
I started this threat thinking that some of you union member will be outraged, now that you know the facts about how your union leaders are wasting your hard earned (just joking) dues dollars, you are trying to kill the messenger, you should be thankful to me, instead you behaved cult like and attack me. Sad sad very sad.

[Dowadudda]

any UA member, all they have to do is google and find out the UA cronies are pillaging the members money. It's incredible to think they can get away with it. But. It's the attitudes that come out here. You guys are the reason why there raping you. You don't question them. You don't stand up. They know that. There system is to keep you in check and threaten your job so you just keep quiet, or don't even research. The UA cronies are ripping you off, and they know that most members will never stand up to them.

Your own membership will your throat to get a better gig or save his own neck. They pit you against each other.

Ask yourself. When was the last time the shop your working for, did not follow the rules. And then, how many of you or your coworkers ever brought it up to the BA. And then, when did the BA ever deal with the issue by the rules. You guys have all been conditioned to work under what really is a false contract. Then, you don't ever question what they may be risking your future money on. They have conditioned you to keep your mouth shut.

[homeownerplus]

I do believe this horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp, but I figured I would add my $0.02. Union workers (most) are like your typical lib, they think they have the answer to all, but yet they cannot justify or explain the who what where and how. Everyone else is just wrong.

Furthermore, non union workers (that I know) are definitly NOT jealous!!! Not for the wages or the benies. We are mad because unions are smothering this country and holding the average American citizen hostage. The economy is limited because of unions. Any company that empoyes union workers are held hostage any time the union workers are not happy they strike and force the company to lose $X per day untill the union is pleased. Whether its the public transportation union in NYC or the airline unions or the auto makers, anytime the union workers are being moist, they not only hurt the company ther are employed by but also their patrons. Then when you get what you want your pu$$y stops dripping down your leg and you keep doing the same job you've always done at the expense of the American people.

[evildberg]

Question for you homeowner and whoever else believes that line of crap you just spewed. If unions are so evil and charge so much why are the non union shops charging the same amount? Why do the union shops have just as high of a profit margin if not higher?

If unions and union shops were so horrible and were charging so much to be able to make up their employees wages, than why don't you and all the other non union shops charge far less and convince everyone that unions are worthless, evil and charge too much?

You couldn't, you'd be out of business.

I would love to see you or anyone else give up their wages and work for half of what you make in fear of losing your jobs to overseas workers. I don't think anyone has complained lately about having too high of a wage.

Thats an interesting spin on things as posted earlier about the bar being raised and now everyone is going to lose their job. "I make too much because of the evil unions" What a crock. If you're afriad of that than you don't know how to do your job. If you're good at your job and are worth anything you will have a job, your job for as long as you want it. At least in this trade anyway. I don't think anyone has figured out a way to rip a unit out send it overseas and have it fixed for cheaper than it could be fixed here yet.

Keep bashing unions and maybe someday you will have your wish and be rid of all the "evil" unions. Lets see what happens to your wage then.

[Dowadudda]

respond to my post. what is your take on mine. Do you think I am bashing?

[rob10]

Is going to become quite strong after shedding its union contracts. I just bought 2000 shares 2 weeks ago. Already made money!!

http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/research/msnbc/profile.asp?Symbol=DPHIQ

[Dowadudda]

ford is looking great for me. 7 bucks or there abouts right now. Man. I may bite.

[Dowadudda]

ford is looking great to me. 7 bucks or there abouts right now. Man. I may bite.

[hvacpope]

Originally posted by rob10
Is going to become quite strong after shedding its union contracts. I just bought 2000 shares 2 weeks ago. Already made money!!

http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/research/msnbc/profile.asp?Symbol=DPHIQ

Rob, I’m very disappointed, first was geenair coming out and expressing support for immigration reform, and now you investing your money on a greedy, anti-union, corporation, you guys are closet republicans, what keeping you inside Robby?

[chillbilly]

Well, I can't stand robbie boy, but he has every right to invest his money for profit due to market "corrections". LOL!

[homeownerplus]

evildburg, I can not answer your question properly and I can't see how you could either. I don't have every union and non union shop's financials. So if you need help understanding where I and many other great Americans are coming from please ask some non rhetorical questions and maybe we can help you understand. I know it is hard to see the truth with thoes large blinders on but maybe one day it will be clear.

[Senior Tech]

Originally posted by viceman
tinner don't waste your time with hvacpoop. he obviously is a guy that couldn't run with the big dogs and blames his failures on the union. he is probably happy with cleaning 3 ton condensors and thinks he is a genious when he fixes aunt marthas furnace. a real man takes responsibility for his own successes and failures. some people find comfort in blaming their short comings on others. don't be sucked into these ridiculous arguments.
i've seen these guys come and go over the years. we know the truth-we drive the industry. ignore the ankle biters.


Interesting...I know several techs who have great benefits and make 60-80 thou a year working on residential equipment. Drive the industry? Not hardly...Is there room for union and non-union, yes. Is there room for individuals who think they are above others...no.

[evildberg]

Question ST:

These techs that you speak of, do they work in an area that is mostly union or has a percentage of union market share? In other words is this area that they work in totally non union?

If not they can thank the union in the area for boosting their wages. Who would work for a shop non union when the union shop next door will pay them way more? There has to be an incentive for the non union shops to pay more to compete for good service guys.

Now if there isn't any union presence in the area they wouldn't be making what you claim they do. Unless of course they work 60 hours a week.

Look at the wages of people in the areas that are totally non union. Especially the areas that stil think the confederates won the war. Then compare them to the wages in the union areas what do you think you will find. Then tell me that unions don't boost the wages of the non union techs in the area.

There may not be room for people who think they are above the rest but I sure hope there's room for common sense.

[johnl45]

Originally posted by homeownerplus
I do believe this horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp, but I figured I would add my $0.02. Union workers (most) are like your typical lib, they think they have the answer to all, but yet they cannot justify or explain the who what where and how. Everyone else is just wrong.

Furthermore, non union workers (that I know) are definitly NOT jealous!!! Not for the wages or the benies. We are mad because unions are smothering this country and holding the average American citizen hostage. The economy is limited because of unions. Any company that empoyes union workers are held hostage any time the union workers are not happy they strike and force the company to lose $X per day untill the union is pleased. Whether its the public transportation union in NYC or the airline unions or the auto makers, anytime the union workers are being moist, they not only hurt the company ther are employed by but also their patrons. Then when you get what you want your pu$$y stops dripping down your leg and you keep doing the same job you've always done at the expense of the American people. The union crooks are just small potatoes compared to the one's in the White House and Corporate America. It must be working for them those because they have all the right-wing robots thinking there doing them a favor while sticking it too them. What a bunch of Dumb Asses.

[chillbilly]

evildberg;
I'm not sure I'm understanding your post.
Where are the numbers that support your claim that non-union is being paid less than union?
Just average numbers would be a good start.
Not sure what the reference to confederates has to do with management and unions and it seems like nothing more than just a cheap shot at southern states.
Then, let's take into consideration if the pay is proportional to the amount of productivity per worker.
Bottom line pay numbers are not the only criteria used to justify what is best for a worker.
In fact, disproportionately high pay may be part of the reason jobs are finding their way out of this country.

[acmanko]

Originally posted by chillbilly
evildberg;
I'm not sure I'm understanding your post.
Where are the numbers that support your claim that non-union is being paid less than union?
Just average numbers would be a good start.
Not sure what the reference to confederates has to do with management and unions and it seems like nothing more than just a cheap shot at southern states.
Then, let's take into consideration if the pay is proportional to the amount of productivity per worker.
Bottom line pay numbers are not the only criteria used to justify what is best for a worker.
In fact, disproportionately high pay may be part of the reason jobs are finding their way out of this country. You are talking about this diproportionate pay?http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/

[acmanko]

http://www.forbes.com/2005/04/20/05ceoland.html

[acmanko]

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-49,RNWE:en&q=pay+for+ceo

[hvacpope]

the other day, I refused to pay my dues to the CEO, almost got fired, he is not going golfing on my nickle for sure!

[chillerout1]

I am union but I am not liberal being union in this area works best for me at this time should that change I will reevaluate at that time chillbilly as far as disproportinate pay goes look at executive pay against worker pay corporate greed is what drives jobs out of this country meeting wallstreets expectations so stock wiil go up so that execs that get stock as part of thier pay when they sell will be that much more. and I do agree some unions do overstep the lines with their demands but and are hurting some industries and just like everybody else we do have dishonest leaders but for most part most are honest and trying to do a good job. Oh by the way I only shop at walmart as a last ditch effort . do you think they could spare some change to get their employees of my taxpayer funded insurance. yes they were the largest emplyer in the state with the most employees using state funded insurance while making record profits.if corporations would treat employees like they treat ceos we would all be better off.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by johnl45
The union crooks are just small potatoes compared to the one's in the White House and Corporate America. It must be working for them those because they have all the right-wing robots thinking there doing them a favor while sticking it too them. What a bunch of Dumb Asses.

Why is it that whenever someone can no longer find a defense for who they support, they try to find others that are worse and somehow claim that because their guys are not the worst it is somehow all right what they do?

This is really typical childishness; "well, Johnny did it tooooooo.....". Oh, what the hell; all union members will do is run and whine to those who are manipulating the hell out of them for a few extra bucks.

[chillbilly]

Originally posted by acmanko
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-49,RNWE:en&q=pay+for+ceo




Yes, I agree there. However, the comparison being made involved union labor vs. non-union labor and not management salary. One corrupt entity at a time. :)

[acmanko]

managment is non-union and exempt from overtime.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by acmanko
[B]managment is non-union and exempt from overtime.



Please don't tell Dash that. LOL

[johnl45]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by johnl45
The union crooks are just small potatoes compared to the one's in the White House and Corporate America. It must be working for them those because they have all the right-wing robots thinking there doing them a favor while sticking it too them. What a bunch of Dumb Asses.

Why is it that whenever someone can no longer find a defense for who they support, they try to find others that are worse and somehow claim that because their guys are not the worst it is somehow all right what they do?

This is really typical childishness; "well, Johnny did it tooooooo.....". Oh, what the hell; all union members will do is run and whine to those who are manipulating the hell out of them for a few extra bucks. Notice how Robopoop didn't say one word about his fellow right-winger HVACPOOP the original poster on this subject! What a bunch of hypocritical crybabies.

[RoBoTeq]

Robopoop? :D:D:D

[chillbilly]

Maybe I've judged unions unfairly based on my own experiences with them.
I really would like to see someone post the advantages vs. disadvantages without biased rhetoric.
IOW- Just facts. Is that possible?

[chillbilly]

Robopoop can start. http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/8795/eek9cp.gif

[evildberg]

Chillbilly,

Here are some numbers

Region 5 which includes Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana and Ohio has the following wage and fringe benefit packages for journeymen:


Open Shop Journeymen’s Wages and Fringes in Region #5


HVAC Mechanics 24.92

Boilermakers 22.94

Bricklayers 27.78

Carpenters 22.72

Cement Masons 22.49

Electricians 25.73

Insulators 19.06

Ironworkers 22.05

Millwrights 22.82

Painters 19.99

Pipefitters 25.30

Plasterers 24.36

Plumbers 24.62

Roofers 19.49

Sheet Metal Workers 22.67

Sprinkler Fitters 26.98

Laborers 16.83

Heavy Equipment Operators 24.06



These figures were posted in the June-July 2005 issue of Peter Cockshaw’s monthly newsletter. Cockshaw obtained this information from PAS, Inc.’s annual survey.

The PAS survey was from the 174-page “2005 Merit Shop Wage and Benefit Survey.” PAS is the only organization that puts together national statistics about non-union wage and fringe benefit trends. Cockshaw has also put together economic information for supervisors in the construction industry. Generally speaking, open shop foremen earn about $3.50-4.00 for their additional responsibilities. The nice part about PAS is the regional breakdown of economic packages.



The ten region report helps avoid the tendency to analyze “national” averages which is generally dragged down by the lower wage rates in the south and southwest.



The source of this data is http://www.minnesotabuildingtrades.org






Notice above HVAC tech is listed as a wage of 24.92
Pipefitter 25.30

At the time of this survey union wage rate for HVAC service / Pipefitter in this local was $31 an hour plus a comprehensive medical, dental, vision, chiropractic, pension, pension suplement and vacation fund.

My referance to the south wasn't a cheap shot just a representation of the truth when it comes to wage amounts as is quoted above in referance to national averages.

[hvacpope]

Why the fitters make more money? Back in the days, everything was built with heavy gauge, steel, welded pipe, then Victaulic came with their groovy stuff, and currently most of the commercial piping is being done using their products, not a whole lot of brainpower or skills are needed to be a pipe fitter today. Another example of overpaid labor, similar to the infamous UAW.

[evildberg]

You obviously haven't done any comercial pipefitting lately and I'll bet you don't have a steam, hot water, gas or refrigeration licence either.

Vic is used for hot and chilled water thats about it. Even then its use is somewhat limited.

Vic isn't used for steam, vic isn't used for gas, vic isn't used in refrigeration of any type of refrigerant.

If pipefitting was so brainless and easy it wouldn't pay what it does. It also wouldn't require its members to go through 5 or more years of school. It pays what it does because there is more to it than you think. It pays what it does because there is a need for qualified, skilled, trained, LICENCED fitters. It pays what it does because there is a demand for quality work that will last for years.


By the way, pipe wall thickness isn't refered to in guage thickness.

[chillbilly]

evildberg;

Do you think the pay that you've shown on the above table is fair? The benefits package looks pretty good.
Do the union officers get compensated for their union duties? I know when I was with the United Steelworkers there were rules that provided for senior members to "bump" other less senior members from positions if their jobs were removed. Is this still a normal union practice? Does the union require it's upper level administrators and officers to reveal their union income?
Thanks,
AL

[tinner73]

Originally posted by evildberg
You obviously haven't done any comercial pipefitting lately and I'll bet you don't have a steam, hot water, gas or refrigeration licence either.

Vic is used for hot and chilled water thats about it. Even then its use is somewhat limited.

Vic isn't used for steam, vic isn't used for gas, vic isn't used in refrigeration of any type of refrigerant.

If pipefitting was so brainless and easy it wouldn't pay what it does. It also wouldn't require its members to go through 5 or more years of school. It pays what it does because there is more to it than you think. It pays what it does because there is a need for qualified, skilled, trained, LICENCED fitters. It pays what it does because there is a demand for quality work that will last for years.


By the way, pipe wall thickness isn't refered to in guage thickness.

hvacpoop can't work on anything over 3 tons. i'm sure he is paid accordingly.

the fitters on my job craned up 16" pipe today 65 pounds per foot. make that fit. an art to say the least.

[hvacker]

Originally posted by chillbilly
evildberg;

Do you think the pay that you've shown on the above table is fair? The benefits package looks pretty good.
Do the union officers get compensated for their union duties? I know when I was with the United Steelworkers there were rules that provided for senior members to "bump" other less senior members from positions if their jobs were removed. Is this still a normal union practice? Does the union require it's upper level administrators and officers to reveal their union income?
Thanks,
AL


Is the pay fair? Often members don't work a full 2000 hr year. Members have to be lisenced. Training updating is required in OSHA, Welding certs, etc. Balancing contractors have to update every 2 years. While it's often brought on posts that some guy knew some union guy that wasn't any good and sure that happens but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater as most members are professionals.

When someone in Washington is a crook we don't revolt do we.

And ya the bennies are the best in the trade. Right now in New Mexico they are $12.36 per hour. two pensions, full health, dental, eyeglasses, unemployment insurance, paid training, and more

I never heard of anyone getting bumpped in any union I was in (3) in over 33 years.

And Union Officers pay is known just like your Senators and rep's pay is known.

On this subject it's often hard to get correct information.

America is at it's best with a strong middle class as then they can actually afford to buy something.

[hvacpope]

By the way, pipe wall thickness isn't refered to in guage thickness. [/B][/QUOTE]

I didnt know that, can you share some of your great knowledge with me?

hvacpoop can't work on anything over 3 tons. i'm sure he is paid accordingly.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I got to give it to you, nowadays I don’t get my hands dirty period, and unlike you, I get pay based on my experience and capabilities, been with the same company for 9 years, your union brothers “salted” us one time, and guess what, we all voted to stay the way we are.

[RoBoTeq]

The only fact we need to know is that if unionized labor were the better way to go for all of the U.S., the unions would not have been in such a decline since the 1960s and would not have most of their numbers working directly or indirectly for the government or on government funded jobs.

Since when does a good thing fail as badly as the unionized workers numbers has?

[hvacker]

Business and big money have always tries with few exceptions to use propaganda, fire, devide and conquer, threats, and even violance ( both sides )

When tou're in the business of selling your skils and labor one might think tou'd try to sell to the highest bidder. I think people that don't know much about unions fear them. Guess what, they are just like you. People, no different.

There are a lot of reasons unions might get voted out but mostly it's the employers propaganda. And those employees that think sucking up to the boss will get them addaboy's.

I never knew an employer that ever respected a suckup except to use them.

I once heard a kid say he was going to school to be a lawyer specializing in busting unions. The snot nosed little **** never had a job in his life let alone a wife, kids, car, house and all the stuff most of you do but he wanted to work to take a living wage away from people that actually earned it.

If that kid runs out of unions he'll be looking for work to lower YOUR wages and bennies next.

[hvacpope]

Originally posted by hvacker
Business and big money have always tries with few exceptions to use propaganda, fire, devide and conquer, threats, and even violance ( both sides )

When tou're in the business of selling your skils and labor one might think tou'd try to sell to the highest bidder. I think people that don't know much about unions fear them. Guess what, they are just like you. People, no different.

There are a lot of reasons unions might get voted out but mostly it's the employers propaganda. And those employees that think sucking up to the boss will get them addaboy's.

I never knew an employer that ever respected a suckup except to use them.

I once heard a kid say he was going to school to be a lawyer specializing in busting unions. The snot nosed little **** never had a job in his life let alone a wife, kids, car, house and all the stuff most of you do but he wanted to work to take a living wage away from people that actually earned it.

If that kid runs out of unions he'll be looking for work to lower YOUR wages and bennies next.

what kind of stuff have you been smoking?

[evildberg]

Robo,

You are probably correct in union membership decresing over the last 40 or so years. I don't have any real numbers on that. However, the pipe trades union membership has been on the rise for several years. There could be a million reasons as to why and anyone here could speculate as to why that is. I won't, but I think things are somewhat cyclical. As with government or anything else.

[RoBoTeq]

Pipe unions on the rise eh? Well, not according to the 2005 convention; http://home.usadatanet.net/~frank9/2005_11_14_WrittenRpt_Membership_NYSBCTD_99thConve ntion.doc

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Pipe unions on the rise eh? Well, not according to the 2005 convention; http://home.usadatanet.net/~frank9/2005_11_14_WrittenRpt_Membership_NYSBCTD_99thConve ntion.doc

Overall U.S. work force has decreased from nearly 50% unionized workers in the 1950s, mostly in the industrial manufacturing industries, to less then 13% today, mostly directly or indirectly government supported. Only our government officials have enough money (ours!) to squander on the high cost of dealing with unionized labor.

[flemsteele]

Originally posted by daytonafan
O.K. Tinner, I am stupid, you got me. Did you offer a challenge about comparing wages and bennies? Can somebody really make over union scale? Thanks for explaining that. My best friend is a Plumber/Steamfitter who earns 13.00 per hour over scale. My wife's brother is a union HVAC tech who also earns well over scale. Why do you have to resort to treating me like a boob? I was simply responding to a remark about wages and bennies. I imagine you aren't a homosexual so when you ask me to compare "packages" I assume you mean compensation. I thought I covered that before but here goes.. I'll type slow...I earn over what scale is. (Currently, Journeymen pay is set at around 29.00 per hour in my area). I have comprehensive health insurance for me, my wife and all of my children. I paid 0$ for the birth of my last child. This insurance includes life insurance on me. It also includes benefits that help pay my bills if I am hurt or sick and can't work. If I work more than 4 hours a day, I get paid for 8. I get time and a half for anything over 8 hours per day. I get double time for any after hours service or weekend service calls. I receive a year end bonus that added another $10.00 per hour onto my pay this year. In case you wonder how I arrived at this figure, its like this -amount of bonus divided by the amount of hours I worked equals X. Have one of your union buddies explain this to you if he's not out picketing someone elses job tommorow. I get paid for Christmas, Thanksgiving, 4th, Memorial Day, Labor Day and I always get the Monday following Easter off with pay (for clarification purposes Tinner, Easter is always on a Sunday.) I get 3 weeks PAID vacation per year with an additional 6 sick days (also, PAID). I have a brand new van that I am allowed to drive home. I get $500.00 per year to spend on clothes and boots. I have yet to pay for 1 tool, instrument or guage. (All purchased by the company) Last year, as a reward for completing a huge commercial project on time and on budget I recieved an all expenses paid Alaskan cruise for the wife and I. (We had to provide our own spending money dammit). My employer has about 10 different retirement packages for us to choose from that can be as aggressive or as low risk as we choose. I haven't been laid off or even been slow since I started here in 1992. My boss pays for any continuing education that I choose to take as long as it pertains to HVAC. Consequently, I have obtained several certifications and a college degree. (Total tuition cost to me: $0) I know the classes werent taught in union halls by beer bellied, Republican bashing, "Proud to be Union" bumper sticker having rejects but I can't have everything now can I Tinner? I'm sure you are a great tech. You deserve everything you have because you are a skilled tradesman. It sounds like the union has been good to you. I'm sure you are a fine individual and I meant you no disrespect but I have a comprehensive "package" that your union could never match. I'm sorry if this pisses you off. I'm sorry that you think I'm an idiot. Most of all I'm sorry that we obviously share similar interests but can never see eye to eye because you have been brainwashed and misguided. I would love to help you with any questions you have on your 60 ton units but I'm sure you can handle them and I am not giving my number out where all these zealots can see it. Don't want to end up next to Hoffa. Is your company hiring? I'd put a mop on my head, where a pair of high heels and sing show tunes for a package like that!!!

[jayhawker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hvacpope
[B]We all know how corrupted labor unions are, I feel pity for the poor lazy unions members, your leaders are having a blast in your nickel.

http://www.unionfacts.com/


Union Dues Spent on Golf, Cadillac, Resorts, and Even Wal-Mart
New Union LM-2 Financial Information Available and Searchable on UnionFacts.com

4/3/06

Washington, DC – Revised financial reporting requirements by the Department of Labor (DOL) are exposing union leaders’ spending habits with unprecedented clarity. Last Friday (3/31), most major unions filed their LM-2 financial disclosure forms with the government, and jaw-dropping expenditures are already easy to find.
Using the search function on http://www.unionfacts.com, making sense of the mountains of union financial data is simple. A preliminary look revealed the following:


Nearly $1.5 million in union members’ dues money was spent on golf.
The Ironworkers AFL-CIO Local Union 40 spent $52,879 on a new Cadillac for a retiring president.
$7.9 million of employee dues money went to resort expenditures.
The Boilermakers AFL-CIO Local 374 spent $8,800 of employee dues money on Christmas gifts at Wal-Mart, despite the labor movement’s smear campaign against the retailer.
Between six AFL-CIO locals, over $50,000 of employee dues money was spent at a single D.C. steakhouse.
The AFL-CIO alone spent over $49 million on political activities and lobbying—much of which is spent quietly on in-kind political expenditures like pro-Kerry brochures and websites. That’s almost $20 million more than it spent on representation activities.
“The increased transparency of union spending will be especially meaningful to union members who are getting their first candid look at how their mandatory union dues are spent by labor officials,” said Richard Berman executive director of the Center for Union Facts. “The 40% of union members who voted for George W. Bush might be interested to know just how much of their dues money went to support John Kerry.”

To learn more visit: http://www.UnionFacts.com. For further information or to arrange an interview please call Sarah Longwell at (202) 463-7106.

[Edited by jayhawker on 05-20-2006 at 07:59 PM]

[hvacpope]

check the "thank you union bosses" video, funny but true!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u9xkqtz-04&search=union%20bosses

[mrs_maintenance_man]

You know, I'm only a wife of a maintenance man (who came here to ask a few questions for my husband), but I do know that I'm from New York where unions are strong and I've had the miserable experience of being the wife of an apartment maintenance worker in a state with no unions. Based on this experience, I can fully say that any blue collar man who doesn't realize that unions are the ONLY entities with any power out there who have his back in any way is none too bright.

My husband, and consequently my whole family, has been put through such misery by his employers here in Texas. The employers have done things to us they never would have gotten away with in New York.

And if you want to turn your attention to a bunch of mooching, good ol' boys, deal with the fact that the 300B Iraq has cost was because of no-bid contracts to companies like Halliburton.

Before you can talk, your boys should walk the walk, don't you think?

[daytonafan]

Originally posted by flemsteele

Originally posted by daytonafan
O.K. Tinner, I am stupid, you got me. Did you offer a challenge about comparing wages and bennies? Can somebody really make over union scale? Thanks for explaining that. My best friend is a Plumber/Steamfitter who earns 13.00 per hour over scale. My wife's brother is a union HVAC tech who also earns well over scale. Why do you have to resort to treating me like a boob? I was simply responding to a remark about wages and bennies. I imagine you aren't a homosexual so when you ask me to compare "packages" I assume you mean compensation. I thought I covered that before but here goes.. I'll type slow...I earn over what scale is. (Currently, Journeymen pay is set at around 29.00 per hour in my area). I have comprehensive health insurance for me, my wife and all of my children. I paid 0$ for the birth of my last child. This insurance includes life insurance on me. It also includes benefits that help pay my bills if I am hurt or sick and can't work. If I work more than 4 hours a day, I get paid for 8. I get time and a half for anything over 8 hours per day. I get double time for any after hours service or weekend service calls. I receive a year end bonus that added another $10.00 per hour onto my pay this year. In case you wonder how I arrived at this figure, its like this -amount of bonus divided by the amount of hours I worked equals X. Have one of your union buddies explain this to you if he's not out picketing someone elses job tommorow. I get paid for Christmas, Thanksgiving, 4th, Memorial Day, Labor Day and I always get the Monday following Easter off with pay (for clarification purposes Tinner, Easter is always on a Sunday.) I get 3 weeks PAID vacation per year with an additional 6 sick days (also, PAID). I have a brand new van that I am allowed to drive home. I get $500.00 per year to spend on clothes and boots. I have yet to pay for 1 tool, instrument or guage. (All purchased by the company) Last year, as a reward for completing a huge commercial project on time and on budget I recieved an all expenses paid Alaskan cruise for the wife and I. (We had to provide our own spending money dammit). My employer has about 10 different retirement packages for us to choose from that can be as aggressive or as low risk as we choose. I haven't been laid off or even been slow since I started here in 1992. My boss pays for any continuing education that I choose to take as long as it pertains to HVAC. Consequently, I have obtained several certifications and a college degree. (Total tuition cost to me: $0) I know the classes werent taught in union halls by beer bellied, Republican bashing, "Proud to be Union" bumper sticker having rejects but I can't have everything now can I Tinner? I'm sure you are a great tech. You deserve everything you have because you are a skilled tradesman. It sounds like the union has been good to you. I'm sure you are a fine individual and I meant you no disrespect but I have a comprehensive "package" that your union could never match. I'm sorry if this pisses you off. I'm sorry that you think I'm an idiot. Most of all I'm sorry that we obviously share similar interests but can never see eye to eye because you have been brainwashed and misguided. I would love to help you with any questions you have on your 60 ton units but I'm sure you can handle them and I am not giving my number out where all these zealots can see it. Don't want to end up next to Hoffa. Is your company hiring? I'd put a mop on my head, where a pair of high heels and sing show tunes for a package like that!!!

I have personally negotiated all of this. I don't need a union to do it for me. Sorry, we are not currently accepting applications.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by mrs_maintenance_man
You know, I'm only a wife of a maintenance man (who came here to ask a few questions for my husband), but I do know that I'm from New York where unions are strong and I've had the miserable experience of being the wife of an apartment maintenance worker in a state with no unions. Based on this experience, I can fully say that any blue collar man who doesn't realize that unions are the ONLY entities with any power out there who have his back in any way is none too bright.

My husband, and consequently my whole family, has been put through such misery by his employers here in Texas. The employers have done things to us they never would have gotten away with in New York.

And if you want to turn your attention to a bunch of mooching, good ol' boys, deal with the fact that the 300B Iraq has cost was because of no-bid contracts to companies like Halliburton.

Before you can talk, your boys should walk the walk, don't you think?

Walk what walk? Those of us who tell it like is really is with the unions have either walked that walk or have too much dignity to have to have a group of goons run by ultra rich and corrupt extortionists baby sit us.

If you don't like what you do in life, move on. If being a union pawn is the only way you can get ahead in life, maybe you are complaining about the wrong people...look in the mirror the next time you want to blame someone for your lot in life.

[mrs_maintenance_man]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by mrs_maintenance_man
You know, I'm only a wife of a maintenance man (who came here to ask a few questions for my husband), but I do know that I'm from New York where unions are strong and I've had the miserable experience of being the wife of an apartment maintenance worker in a state with no unions. Based on this experience, I can fully say that any blue collar man who doesn't realize that unions are the ONLY entities with any power out there who have his back in any way is none too bright.

My husband, and consequently my whole family, has been put through such misery by his employers here in Texas. The employers have done things to us they never would have gotten away with in New York.

And if you want to turn your attention to a bunch of mooching, good ol' boys, deal with the fact that the 300B Iraq has cost was because of no-bid contracts to companies like Halliburton.

Before you can talk, your boys should walk the walk, don't you think?

Walk what walk? Those of us who tell it like is really is with the unions have either walked that walk or have too much dignity to have to have a group of goons run by ultra rich and corrupt extortionists baby sit us.

If you don't like what you do in life, move on. If being a union pawn is the only way you can get ahead in life, maybe you are complaining about the wrong people...look in the mirror the next time you want to blame someone for your lot in life.

That was absolutely ridiculous. I'm sorry. You're spouting off about something of which you have no knowledge and it shows.

I'm passing on the rest of the conversation. I've met your type before and it's never worth the hassle.

[hvacpope]

Originally posted by mrs_maintenance_man
You know, I'm only a wife of a maintenance man (who came here to ask a few questions for my husband), but I do know that I'm from New York where unions are strong and I've had the miserable experience of being the wife of an apartment maintenance worker in a state with no unions. Based on this experience, I can fully say that any blue collar man who doesn't realize that unions are the ONLY entities with any power out there who have his back in any way is none too bright.

My husband, and consequently my whole family, has been put through such misery by his employers here in Texas. The employers have done things to us they never would have gotten away with in New York.

And if you want to turn your attention to a bunch of mooching, good ol' boys, deal with the fact that the 300B Iraq has cost was because of no-bid contracts to companies like Halliburton.

Before you can talk, your boys should walk the walk, don't you think?

Hey lady you and your husband made all the wrong decisions, first why didn’t you stay in NY? Second, if his employers are so evil, why doesn’t he find another job? And third, I bet you mommy told you not to marry a poor apartment maintenance worker, you should had listen to her!! time for you and your hobby to grow up and take responsibility for your actions!!

[smokin68]

You can't argue union with southerners. It's inbred into them to not to like unions, as they associate it with the civil war. Gran- pappy didn't need a union,why do I? Most of these people wouldn't have $hit if it weren't for unions. Think your conditions at work are good? Thank a UNION. Think they're bad? Thank a UNION they're not worse.

There is corruption in unions. Do you think there isn't corruption amongst corporation??? There are places to work that treat their employees well enought that unions aren't needed. Then there are others that definetly nedd a union, but the people are too job scared and threatened by the company to vote one in. I've worked union and non-union.

[hvacpope]

Originally posted by smokin68
You can't argue union with southerners. It's inbred into them to not to like unions, as they associate it with the civil war. Gran- pappy didn't need a union,why do I? Most of these people wouldn't have $hit if it weren't for unions. Think your conditions at work are good? Thank a UNION. Think they're bad? Thank a UNION they're not worse.

There is corruption in unions. Do you think there isn't corruption amongst corporation??? There are places to work that treat their employees well enought that unions aren't needed. Then there are others that definetly nedd a union, but the people are too job scared and threatened by the company to vote one in. I've worked union and non-union.

Smoky my dear, after reading some of your post and coming to terms with your lack of technical abilities, I figured you must be the product of a failed union apprenticeship program, guess I was right, here you are crawling out your hole defending your welfare check and attacking our southerners neighbor’s, let me tell you boy, you better enjoy the times because isn’t going to last.
There is nothing positive about organized labor in today’s economy, just a bunch of untalented leaches pushing their way around.
In my neck of the woods I seen one union shop after another go belly up, enjoy while you can, the gravy train is about to make its final stop.

[smokin68]

Originally posted by hvacpope
[QUOTE]Originally posted by smokin68
[B]You can't argue union with southerners. It's inbred into them to not to like unions, as they associate it with the civil war. Gran- pappy didn't need a union,why do I? Most of these people wouldn't have $hit if it weren't for unions. Think your conditions at work are good? Thank a UNION. Think they're bad? Thank a UNION they're not worse.

There is corruption in unions. Do you think there isn't corruption amongst corporation??? There are places to work that treat their employees well enought that unions aren't needed. Then there are others that definetly nedd a union, but the people are too job scared and threatened by the company to vote one in. I've worked union and non-union.

Smoky my dear


Are you a female??? Sounds like it, or an extremely gay way to start a rebuttal.





after reading some of your post and coming to terms with your lack of technical abilities

Which posts would these be? You don't know $hit from $hyan about my technical abilities.,



I figured you must be the product of a failed union apprenticeship program, guess I was right,


Wrong.


here you are crawling out your hole defending your welfare check


I have a good job and probably support you,so shut TFU.







and attacking our southerners neighbor’s


At least learn English so you don't sound so inbred.






let me tell you boy, you better enjoy the times because isn’t going to last

,Heard an old man say this about 20 years ago in a bar.Was that you?.


There is nothing positive about organized labor in today’s economy, just a bunch of untalented leaches pushing their way around.
In my neck of the woods I seen one union shop after another go belly up, enjoy while you can, the gravy train is about to make its final stop

Where do you get your info on this? From Granpappy?.





[Edited by smokin68 on 05-22-2006 at 01:30 PM]

[smokin68]

BTW, what kind of robes are they giving out? According to the title of this thread, many people should have fresh robes on.;)

[hvacpope]

Smoky my dear, it seem you are not as dumb as I thought, you don’t know much about HVAC but at least you are a good speller, well buddy I’m very happy for you, maybe after your union outfit goes bankrupted, you could jump ship to the teachers union if they are still around, its all the same crap anyway, right spelling bee?

[RoBoTeq]

I thought "smoky my dear" was right considerate of the pope to state. What with all of the sensitivities of those unionized people who need others to protect them, I thought being kind to one would be appreciated. Oh, that's right; union people don't appreciate anything unless its something being given to them.

[smokin68]

Robo,
Maybe you like gay sounding intro's, but I don't. I asked if the pope was a female, 'cause that's a female intro. If pope's a female, I'll watch my language closer.You might like: Robo,sweetie: or Robo, my love: coming from a male, but I don't.


Now as far as unions, you're just opinionated,as are most southerners, but you've most likely never worked for one, and only speak of what you read from biased company opinions.Opinions are like butt holes....everyone has one.

[RoBoTeq]

I have never been a Southerner and stop referring to my butt hole :D .......unless you first call me sweetie.

I turned down going union back in the 1970s when the unions trashed construction sites around Maryland. It just irked me that there were people who felt they had the right to dictate who could work and who could not while destroying private property and causing seven deaths of construction workers.

My uncle was a supervisor for a unionized mechanical contractor who offered to get me into the union and with Lloyd E Mitchell Co. for more then what I was then making. Once I saw how the unions operated, I wanted no part of them.

[evildberg]

Smokin68

Its quite obvious that you or I will never be able to talk sense to people like robo or hvacpope.

The original thread topic was that unions are alledgedly robbing their members. This from a web site of a special intrest group. I could find a special intrest group website that would be against anything and everything does it make their supposed facts true? No and even if they were true or are true we could talk all day about all the different mechanical associations and types of groups that non union shops belong to and their employees are represented by. We could list the same numbers and how much of their membership dollars were spent on golf, food, trips, political lobbying ect.

The difference is that the union provides a a valuable service and protects the rights of its members. Associations don't. They send out cool little magazines and offer some training here and there and allow for a place for its member companies, shops and its very own bosses to post a list of member businesses.

I would even venture to guess that these associations, corporations, HVAC shops and bosses of member gruops spend a much higher amount on the very same things. Of course because of unions non profit status their financial information is about as public as it can be. If what the union bashers on this site claim is true about percentages of union market share than I guarantee you the non union sector spending on these things is way higher.

Private companies, orginizations, corporations ect. have records that are just about impossible to get outsider information on. To gain access to these records you would have to be the IRS, government or the business owner/accountant.

I'm sorry to hear that there are those of you here that love to bash unions because you had one or two bad experiances with them. If your goal is to try to search out and find every little thing wrong with unions, I'm sure you will find things.

Just as we could have a political arguement all day about one party or the other and all of us know we could find many things wrong with both.

The truth is that unions do provide a valuable service to their members and encourage/require training to benefit its customers of contractors.

It is also a fact that without unions, pay, benefits, health, safety, licencing requirements, code requirements and standards wouldn't be what they are today.

Again, compare the wages and benefits of union areas to areas that are primarily or all non union.

You could say that union is overpayed. Well, if that were the case, nobody would be doing business with union shops. We don't sell quanity or slap in it and run type of work. We sell quality. I do it right or I don't do it at all. Amost all of my acounts I currently have with the exception of those we installed, came from other non-union HVAC companies that weren't fulfilling the customers needs and never fixed their equipment right.

I /we will never have a problem getting work and I have more work than I know what to do with. As long as there are companies that care more about their profit margin that quality work, companies that can't pay to keep decent people and work that is performed half assed, I will continue to have more work than I know what to do with.

People are fed up with cheap. After their HVAC equipment hasn't been properly serviced or maintained they dump the cheap alternative and call on experiance.

My point is that the market for work is different in many areas union versus non union and the requirements of its employees are quite different.

You can sit here and bash unions all day long but before you do, do a little research on who has effected more change for the better in reguards to this industry.

I'm stil quite interested in knowing who is financing and backing that website. Which intrest groups, political groups and individuals.

If you want to expose something, expose the people behind that web site. I'm sure we would all be interested to know the details.

[smokin68]

You're right evildberg, it's like teaching a pig to sing.

It frustrates you, and really annoys the pig.

[hvacpope]

Smoky me dear have you hit the bong yet? This is your final warning grasshopper, behave or else, I’m going to send you back to big bubba.

[smokin68]

Mommy's calling Hvacpope......it's time for bed. After all, being 40+ years old it's not easy getting up in time for your paper route. Now go kiss Daddy Goodnight(you're preference) and leave the hvac-talk to the grown ups.

[jayhawker]

Ultimate power will ultimately corrupt, any group of people at the top of any organization will always take care of themselves first and the people that could make it difficult for them to maintain that position.

[mrs_maintenance_man]

Originally posted by evildberg
Smokin68

Its quite obvious that you or I will never be able to talk sense to people like robo or hvacpope.

...
I would even venture to guess that these associations, corporations, HVAC shops and bosses of member gruops spend a much higher amount on the very same things. Of course because of unions non profit status their financial information is about as public as it can be. If what the union bashers on this site claim is true about percentages of union market share than I guarantee you the non union sector spending on these things is way higher.

Private companies, orginizations, corporations ect. have records that are just about impossible to get outsider information on. To gain access to these records you would have to be the IRS, government or the business owner/accountant.

I'm sorry to hear that there are those of you here that love to bash unions because you had one or two bad experiances with them. If your goal is to try to search out and find every little thing wrong with unions, I'm sure you will find things.

Just as we could have a political arguement all day about one party or the other and all of us know we could find many things wrong with both.

....
I'm stil quite interested in knowing who is financing and backing that website. Which intrest groups, political groups and individuals.

If you want to expose something, expose the people behind that web site. I'm sure we would all be interested to know the details.


Earlier in this thread, I tried to speak to one of these anti-union people, and realized very quickly from the words, the venom and the tone that was coming out that there was no point. What do you say to someone who has been so thoroughly and successfully convinced to vote against his or her own interests? Or are these their own interests? Every time I hear someone froth about the anti-union thing, I have to wonder if they're actually speaking for management. I have to pick my battles so I stopped talking. I know they aren't going to listen. But I agree with everything you said and I think you said it brilliantly. I think people have lost a lot of critical thinking ability in our country. It's too easy not to have to think that deeply.

Perhaps the union structure is not for everybody, though I personally don't get why, but what always astounds me is the intensity of sentiment and that it is always accompanied by an absence of criticism of management and the assertion that if you need a union, there's something wrong with you -- you're lazy, you're untalented, you're stupid, you're dishonest, and they feel completely comfortable being so nasty when they've never met you.

Before, I mentioned my family's experiences in a non-union state. I didn't itemize, I just said we experienced very unfair things that wouldn't happen in a union state. The first thing the person I was speaking to did was to insult my family personally. He doesn't seem to realize that you can dedicate your entire life to being a stellar employee and excellent at what you do, like my husband did because he was raised with a strong southern work ethic (and he used to be against unions too -- now, he wants to move with me to New York), and have the company care NOTHING for what your personal needs are or what kind of salary and mobility you may have earned. PEOPLE run companies. They care about their OWN interests. And there's always the fallback, "If you don't like how you're treated, get a new job!" That doesn't work. How things are done in one company are more or less how they're done within the same industry in that state. When you work for apartment complexes like my husband does, you're in a business that is all about giving high returns to investors. If you pay your people more, your profits are less, and management sure isn't paying themselves less to pay the workers more. Unions make them have to though, and management hates that.

I have to wonder about people who have to discard any conflicting opinion in order to fight to retain the same worldview. There are states that are NEVER going to become union states. Why be so threatened by unions that you come out spewing personal insults at any person who believes in the banding together of working class people so that they have some of the same power in the market place that wealthy interests have?

You're not the one who argues otherwise, so clearly this is rhetorical.

[hvacpope]

Mrs. Maintenance, go back to you previous post, nobody disrespect you or your family.
I’m from NY, and as a former union member, I can tell you what labor unions are all about, I got nothing against union workers, I dislike the leaders and the whole purpose of the union in today’s economy.
Again, it seems like you and your hobby made a ton of wrong decisions, is up to you people to reverse the trend, your hope of having a magic union providing for you are the equivalent of me wanting to win the lotto, at least if you come back to NY, you both could take advantage of our world renown welfare system and live happily ever after, I wish you the best of luck.

[mrs_maintenance_man]

Originally posted by hvacpope
Mrs. Maintenance, go back to you previous post, nobody disrespect you or your family.
...the equivalent of me wanting to win the lotto, at least if you come back to NY, you both could take advantage of our world renown welfare system and live happily ever after, I wish you the best of luck.


You include in your post this comment,"Again, it seems like you and your hobby made a ton of wrong decisions" and have the nerve to say you didn't disrespect my family?

Having said that, the comment is ludicrous. I told you no details, absolutely NO details, about our lives or anything that occurred. In fact, it took one relatively brief post to even get you started. What basis could you possibly think you have to say that we made "tons of mistakes?" Go ahead, name the mistakes, but you have to base it on exactly what I told you and nothing that you pulled out of your personal collection of experiences, biases and assumptions. The best you could possibly do is a lucky guess.

I know how unions work too. My former fiance was a member of Hotel and Restaurant Worker's Union which happens to be the same union as the building engineer's union (32BJ). I attended rallies, I attended planning meetings, because my ex was a shop steward. Now, that same ex-fiance is one of New York's Finest. He's now a captain and makes about 70-80K after 8 years on the force. He will make six figures by the end of his career. He has incredible benefits, both during his life and after for his dependents. He has that because the police have a union too.

Whatever your individual bad experiences may have been, you are allowing those experiences to cause you to form an opinion that if given room to grow, could make life much harder for people just like you and the other people on this forum. Unions should not be used as a shield for the lazy, because bad work habits just weaken the unions and make things harder for good workers, but the worst thing than can happen to the rank-and-file worker is that unions disappear or lose strength. I can't tell you how upsetting I find it to find blue collar workers who argue against unions. Management is lining their pockets with the worker's money on every word you say. As you were told by the poster to whom I replied last, you will find problems in any organization with power. What they do for the lives of working people is far more important than the few organizational problems they may have.






[Edited by mrs_maintenance_man on 05-24-2006 at 05:19 PM]

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by evildberg
Smokin68

Its quite obvious that you or I will never be able to talk sense.....

This is a good first step in stopping yourself from spewing out ridiculous assertations that labor unions in the U.S. have any long term purpose in bettering Americans. Good job.

Maybe you realized that if unions were so wonderful for the country, our government would not have had to pass laws specifically addressing union violence that is used for unions to extort what they want from others.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by mrs_maintenance_man
You include in your post this comment,"Again, it seems like you and your hobby made a ton of wrong decisions" and have the nerve to say you didn't disrespect my family?


For crying out loud woman! If you are really this sensitive you probably do need some organization to take care of you.

[mrs_maintenance_man]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by evildberg
Smokin68

Its quite obvious that you or I will never be able to talk sense.....

This is a good first step in stopping yourself from spewing out ridiculous assertations that labor unions in the U.S. have any long term purpose in bettering Americans. Good job.

Maybe you realized that if unions were so wonderful for the country, our government would not have had to pass laws specifically addressing union violence that is used for unions to extort what they want from others.

Following your reasoning, if corporations in the early days of the American corporation (think US Steel) had not murdered workers, worked children to death in sweat shops, and tried to enforce 12-16 hour days, the labor unions would never have needed to form.

You might look into some late 19th century-early 20th century history. It's quite the eye-opener.

[mrs_maintenance_man]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by mrs_maintenance_man
You include in your post this comment,"Again, it seems like you and your hobby made a ton of wrong decisions" and have the nerve to say you didn't disrespect my family?


For crying out loud woman! If you are really this sensitive you probably do need some organization to take care of you.

I am asking the man to find any logical basis to his argument. When someone says, "It seems like your family made a ton of wrong decisions," it pretty much blows out of the water, "I didn't disrespect your family."

I make no apologies for the fact that I defend vehemently even an unfounded accusation about my husband, but the fact is that I CAN'T be sensitive about it because the man has nothing upon which to base the conclusions he's made. I didn't provide any detail on which he possibly could base a conclusion.

You need an organization to give you strength in the market place because the wealthy ownership interests own you, you're just not bright enough to realize it. Good luck with that.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by mrs_maintenance_man

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by evildberg
Smokin68

Its quite obvious that you or I will never be able to talk sense.....

This is a good first step in stopping yourself from spewing out ridiculous assertations that labor unions in the U.S. have any long term purpose in bettering Americans. Good job.

Maybe you realized that if unions were so wonderful for the country, our government would not have had to pass laws specifically addressing union violence that is used for unions to extort what they want from others.

Following your reasoning, if corporations in the early days of the American corporation (think US Steel) had not murdered workers, worked children to death in sweat shops, and tried to enforce 12-16 hour days, the labor unions would never have needed to form.

You might look into some late 19th century-early 20th century history. It's quite the eye-opener.

This is a moot point that keeps union advocators feeling justified in their rantings.

Yes; something needed to be done in the early years of U.S. labor. Had the U.S. government not been such a slow operation beurocracy, these labor issues would have been eliminated by general law as they are today.

Unfortunately, the government dragged its feet and organized crime saw a way to use the common workers as a mass force to benefit themselves while allowing union bosses to legally extort money from early U.S. corporations.

There was indeed a need for something to be done. As corrupt and vile as union leaders were, they did turn the labor tide more quickly then the government was doing. None of this applies to todays standards in U.S workforce.

With union labor only comprimising of 13% of the U.S. labor force, and 8% of that force is now government workers...."AND" the remaining union labor jobs are 90% government or government sponsored jobs, there is no way unions can do anything but hinder the U.S. overall until the day they are no longer supported by our extreme left political leaders.

If you want a perfect example of what a completely unionized country would be like, check out Cuba or any other survivor of Communist values.

[hvacpope]

Mrs. maintenance your first and biggest mistake was to marry a apartment janitor but I guess that’s considered step up from dating a hotel janitor, just kidding, listen for real, you sound smart enough to understand that I’m not buying this whole shenanigan, if you have something to say about unions or anything else, please be yourself unless you are one of those frustrated cross dressing homo-something ok, now go back to the kitchen and cook some dinner for your loved janitor.

[tinner73]

mrs. maintainence...your wasting your time. this issue has been beaten to death. they know everything about your union and mine although they've never actually belonged to one. feel for them...they don't know any better.




p.s...when we get tired of our union bosses and don't like what is happening...we VOTE them out. what do you do when you get tired of your bosses?

[RoBoTeq]

Well, first off, I won't work for someone I don't respect and get along with. I have quit jobs because I did not like the conditions. I didn't whine to someone else to take care of my problems, I resolved them or moved on.

Your union bosses are not doing what they do for your benefit. They use labor as a tool to extort money from companies that eventually cannot continue to operate under the heavy burden of union parasites.

Take the American auto industry as an example; non-union foreign companies are florishing and their workers are content with their jobs and you never hear them whining on the news about having labor issues. Then you have the unionized U.S. auto workers pissing and moaning about everything while the companies go bankrupt. The only difference between the companies florishing and the companies dying is unionized labor.

[evildberg]

I'm wondering what these specific laws are/ were that were enacted to eliminate so called union violence specifically? I haven't heard of any laws of this sort. I'm curious to hear some of them. Tell us Robo. I'm also wondering why you keep going back to the same old organized crime line and refering to events/ scenarios that took place 80 years ago. I'm also stil wondering what special intrest group is behind/ supporting the unionfacts website.

I agree with you that an entirely union business sector wouldn't be a good thing.

If you want an example of what an entirely conservitive society would be like, look at any monarchy.

If you want an example of what an entirely liberal society would be like look at france.

The point is that this country is great because of its freedom. It was created from the start with a system of checks and balances. Without these nobody would be free. Weather entirely one political party or another we would have serious problems. If we were entirely union or entirely non union this country would have a lot of problems.

In an entirely union society I could forsee problems with people getting into positions and abusing their power and ultimatly hurting the people it was designed to protect. If everything was union, the leaders wouldn't have any worries or fears of people keeping an eye on them. Although as previously stated these people could be voted out or kicked out because of the systems in place in the union structure no matter how high up the ladder. In either case though there would be problems.

In an entirely non union society, the only ones being taken care of are the politicians, business owners and higherups in the various HVAC organizations. With nobody to oppose their power, wages go down, the rich get richer and the working class becomes poorer. No matter how good you are at what you do, unless you can own the company. Safety requirements, code requirements and benefits to the worker also decrese to almost nothing. If you don't believe this could happen, you're wrong. In this area which is about 40% union we are constantly battling the non union business owners who sue the state for tests that their people can't pass but we can. Meanwhile they legislate for more lenient code requirements to make it easier to compete. This is happening today. I'm glad my tax dollars are going to legal fees spent by the state to decrese the code requirements in an effort to pass legislation to cut our pay because we then don't deserve it. An effort by non union business owners to lower our wages is currently in effect. The claim is that our apprentices make more than they feel they should pay someone with 1-5 years experiance. Meanwhile, they charge the same hourly rate.

Owners work with politicians to figure out ways of making more profit while not even concidering the workers they employ. Meanwhile licencing, education and experiance requirements decrese to next to nothing. If most business owners had their way the cheaper they could find labor the better. Meanwhile the workers, customers and economy suffer because nobody can afford to invest their money back into the economy, the product/service produced by the worker is decresed in quality because of lack of experiance and education and quality of life is decresed for the working class.

I don't think either scenario would be a good thing.


Under united states law the worker has the right to organize.

Any individual or groups of individuals have the right to not organize if they choose.

When the right to organize is legislated out or refused to individuals or companies, we will have many problems on our hands and will be personally to blame for giving up our freedoms by our own choice.

The only thing standing between the government and greedy business owners (not all business owners) destroying wages, benifits, codes, safety, educational requirements and economic balance is unions.

Personally I would rather live in a society built on a system of checks and balances and have the right to be free and make a choice for what I feel best takes care of my family.

Businesses and government care about the almighty dollar, unions care about the working class

[smokin68]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Well, first off, I won't work for someone I don't respect and get along with. I have quit jobs because I did not like the conditions. I didn't whine to someone else to take care of my problems, I resolved them or moved on.

Your union bosses are not doing what they do for your benefit. They use labor as a tool to extort money from companies that eventually cannot continue to operate under the heavy burden of union parasites.

Take the American auto industry as an example; non-union foreign companies are florishing and their workers are content with their jobs and you never hear them whining on the news about having labor issues. Then you have the unionized U.S. auto workers pissing and moaning about everything while the companies go bankrupt. The only difference between the companies florishing and the companies dying is unionized labor.


This is complete horsesh!t. The reason the American auto industry is suffering is due to inferior designs, which are made by NON-UNION engineers. The reason the non-union auto workers don't whine and groan is because they CAN'T. They have no representatio. They have an open-door policy....you don't like what going on we'll open the door for you.

As far as you resolving your own problems, you had no CHOICE without a union.

I'm glad to see the corporate executives playing golf with their own money.....money they don't have to give to a non-union worker. Whatcha gonna do??? Quit???? That's your only choice. He who represents himself when you can have someone defend you is a FOOL.

Brainwashed management HATES UNIONS.

[daytonafan]

This is exactly why I work for a small company. I have earned the respect of the owner who is a good man who cares about us. My take home pay last week for 43 hours was over $1200.00. Thats after taxes. He also pays the insurance premiums for me and my entire family. Throw in a good retirement plan and 3 weeks paid vacation and you have one content employee. I am lucky to have found such a company and they are damn lucky to have found me. We are small and it is a great bunch of guys. The losers and deadbeats don't make it in our company because none of us put up with it. We are all proud to put our company sticker on our equipment. We really do feel like family. If every owner was like mine, there would be no need for unions. Unfortunately, there is too much riff raff who see fit to take advantage of those who need work. I'm not the biggest fan of unions but I see their purpose.

All of you non union owners on here, I challenge you to take care of your employees without being forced. That is essentially what the unions do, force employers to make it worth while to come to work. Don't give a guy $18.00 an hour and a take home truck and think your doing him any good. If your making fat ass loot, give the ones who make it for you their share. Of course, the lions share should go to you because without you, there would be no company. This whole union vs. non-union argument would go away if some of you guys (I'm not saying anyone on this site, so don't get menstral on me) would make your employees lives easier. A happy worker is a good worker.


Please don't mistake this for an endorsement of unions. I know there is rampant corruption and deciet within them. Just like anyone with power, unions can abuse it. However, there would be no need for them if everybody was honest and forthright with their workers. I urge everybody to read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair. Then tell me why American workers even needed to unionize.

[tinner73]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Well, first off, I won't work for someone I don't respect and get along with. I have quit jobs because I did not like the conditions. I didn't whine to someone else to take care of my problems, I resolved them or moved on.

funny.. neither will i. i have quit jobs as well. who would i whine too? do you think people have the hall on speed dial? you don't need the hall for a job either, i have been in the trade(union)for 16 yrs and haven't relied on them for work yet. what would i whine about?? we just go to work and do our job. yea...i just cry when i don't like something.







Your union bosses are not doing what they do for your benefit. They use labor as a tool to extort money from companies that eventually cannot continue to operate under the heavy burden of union parasites.

you sure seem to know everything (usually a sure sign of an A$$HOLE). there are 300+ union sheetmetal shops around here. couldn't tell you how many union pipefitting or plumbing shops, but there are over 15,000 union electricans around here too. but you already knew that because you're the smartest guy you know. somehow the shops are profitable. now tell me how ALL those people only work on Govt. jobs..blah..blah. you really need to pull you pants back up because your talking out of you ass.....AGAIN.









Take the American auto industry as an example; non-union foreign companies are florishing and their workers are content with their jobs and you never hear them whining on the news about having labor issues. Then you have the unionized U.S. auto workers pissing and moaning about everything while the companies go bankrupt. The only difference between the companies florishing and the companies dying is unionized labor.

i don't know much about the UAW. so i won't comment. i'm not nearly as arrogant as yourself. i'm sure you know everything about them as well. what i do know is the upper management in the auto industry won't be starving when it all implodes.

this has grown tiresome...AGAIN. enjoy your weekend and upcoming holiday...brought to you by the unions.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by evildberg
I'm wondering what these specific laws are/ were that were enacted to eliminate so called union violence specifically? I haven't heard of any laws of this sort. I'm curious to hear some of them. Tell us Robo.

As usual, your kind only sees and hears what it wants to. See if you can read this; http://www.nrtwc.org/fuva109.pdf

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by tinner73

this has grown tiresome...AGAIN. enjoy your weekend and upcoming holiday...brought to you by the unions. [/B]

And yet another crock of crap spewed by union propogandists. The unions had nothing to do with the observance of Memorial Day, which has been being observed as a day to take off of work to honor our fallen heros since the mid 1800s; http://www.memorialdayorigin.info/order11.html

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by smokin68

This is complete horsesh!t. The reason the American auto industry is suffering is due to inferior designs, which are made by NON-UNION engineers. The reason the non-union auto workers don't whine and groan is because they CAN'T. They have no representatio. They have an open-door policy....you don't like what going on we'll open the door for you.

As far as you resolving your own problems, you had no CHOICE without a union.

I'm glad to see the corporate executives playing golf with their own money.....money they don't have to give to a non-union worker. Whatcha gonna do??? Quit???? That's your only choice. He who represents himself when you can have someone defend you is a FOOL.

Brainwashed management HATES UNIONS. [/B]

Yep! You guys always have someone or something else to blame unionized business failures on. What's the two common factors of American railroads, American steel mills, American air line companies, American textile workers, American shipping? They are all failing and they are all heavily unionized!

If there is one common factor in all failed business's that don't occur in all other business's, don't ya think it might have something to do with that common factor?

Unions cost corporation lots of money to maintain very wealthy union leaders and do not produce one penny in assets. Therefore, if you are capable of adding single digits, the only conclusion can be that a unionized company's product must cost more to manufacture.

[smokin68]

Another common denominator in all of these failed businesses is MANAGEMENT.




(insert pic of smiley beating head against a wall)

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by smokin68
Another common denominator in all of these failed businesses is MANAGEMENT.




(insert pic of smiley beating head against a wall)

All business's have management. Only those that also have unionized labor have consistantly failed.

Yes, there is bad management out there, and some of them are now being convicted. Union bosses are protected for the criminal actions that they commit.

[geerair]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Yep! You guys always have someone or something else to blame unionized business failures on. What's the two common factors of American railroads, American steel mills, American air line companies, American textile workers, American shipping? They are all failing and they are all heavily unionized!

If there is one common factor in all failed business's that don't occur in all other business's, don't ya think it might have something to do with that common factor?Southwest Airlines is completely unionized and they are doing just fine. American Airlines profits have been decimated by high fuel prices as have most other airlines and delivery companies.

Your generalizations paint a rabid, almost pathological hate of unions.

[daytonafan]

Geer, I'm a bit curious. You seem to be a very intelligent human being with rock solid confidence. For the most part, you seem to rise above the name calling and immaturity that exists on this site. I have even caught myself being so angry at what you say that I resort to stupidity.

However, it seems that everyone who disagrees with you is a "fundamentalist". Do you mean fundamentalist Christians? If so, please explain exactly what you mean by this term. Don't we all have fundamentalism at the root of our thoughts. I would think there is a "fundamental" basis for every opinion. Are you so positive that you are correct that you automatically discount any opinion that wavers from yours?

You seem to combat other's assertions and rebuttals by disecting their paragraphs word by word and inserting smartass responses. Your atheism doesn't offend me, I'm wondering if deism in any form offends you personally.

Just Curious, Daytona

[evildberg]

Robo,

I asked what law or laws have been passed that are specifically directed at unions alone. this article talkes about all kinds of things but doesn't mention any specific law that has been passed. It mentions a bill that has been brought up in the house but never was passed. How many bills are brought up and never passed? Lots of them.

How many acts of violence have been comitted at non union shops or places of work? Lots more.

How many acts of violence have been comited at sports events? lots more.

Point is that you are focusing on one article of examples and a one sided arguement that is based on these acts of violence. We could sit here and pick apart anything as I said before and there would always be negatives to any issue.

You however insist that america's problems in reguards to failing businesses are a result of unions which is not true. I sat and listened to general motors vice president on tv the other day admiting on his own will that they can't keep up with innovation in the automotive market. He said that they have done a poor job of new product development which has hurt their pocket book severely. He also said that they negotiated their benefits packages with their employees when they were at an all time high in business. They had more money than they knew what to do with. Suddenly when their sales go down because of poor management decisions, marketing, product development and the fact that they can't provide a decent waranty package on their cars, its the fault of the people who got them there by busting their asses to provide the company a profit? They then offer to take pay cuts to help the business and keep their jobs and its their fault? In the non union world most of these people wouldn't have the company loyalty and would leave under these same circumstances. These union employees for the most part have worked there for years and years.

I'm trying to have an intellegent debate here.

if you can find me an article which backs your asertions that there have been laws enacted specifically in reguards to the so called union violence threat I would be more than willing to read it.

In the present time the article you posted speaks nothing of any.

[trane]

[hvacpope]

remember this union asswipe,assaulting that guy cause he shouted something at prez. wannabe Kerry.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/983/kerry40js.jpg

[daytonafan]

What the hell was Kerry doing addressing a union crowd? What does a ketchup maker pull down these days? I would take Al Gore over that elitist *******.

[coolie]

... looking for the 'robes' these union workers get 'robed' with.... (* S I G H * )
'
My grandfathger ran a small manufacturing business he inherited from his father for seventy years; and it's still going as a division of a BIG NYSE firm.
'
http://www.simplicityengineering.com/
'
Gramps 'robed' his workers with fair wages based on need. Guy had a kid; Gramps gave him a raise. Clothing, food and shelter. And Gramps took a fgair salary plus dividends from his little closely-held...
When the IAM came in, he welcomed them with open arms. Let the shop vote; still reserved the right to fire a guy on the spot - which he did.
But when he sold out in '81, the $$ -thanks to the Reagan gift tax law- was divided up TAX free among the guys who'd stayed with him over many years.
There was a teary-eyed union crowd at gramps' funeral, too.
'
cool'atteral

[smokin68]

Originally posted by hvacpope
remember this union asswipe,assaulting that guy cause he shouted something at prez. wannabe Kerry.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/983/kerry40js.jpg



That's FANTASTIC!!!!!!! A picture of Hvacpope after running his mouth to the union reps. BwaaHaaaHaaaaa!!!!!!

[tinner73]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by tinner73

this has grown tiresome...AGAIN. enjoy your weekend and upcoming holiday...brought to you by the unions.

And yet another crock of crap spewed by union propogandists. The unions had nothing to do with the observance of Memorial Day, which has been being observed as a day to take off of work to honor our fallen heros since the mid 1800s; http://www.memorialdayorigin.info/order11.html [/B]

not Memorial Day! :rolleyes: the weekends were fought for by the unions.

[tinner73]

Originally posted by hvacpope
remember this union asswipe,assaulting that guy cause he shouted something at prez. wannabe Kerry.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/983/kerry40js.jpg
hey..that guy insulted my wife and said my kids were dumb. kicked my dog...then called me a scab. THAT'S when i grabbed him. quit posting that pic of me.

[RoBoTeq]

Ya know; union drones will never acknowledge all of the wrongs that unions are guilty of because they are basically paid to be loyal. The facts are that unions have decreased because they are not good for the country.

Unions need to have enough workers unionized to support their high paid bosses but not so many that the labor force cannot compete. The reason the percentage of unionized workers today is so low compared to a couple of decades ago is because the greedy unions went past the point that the market could support them.

That is, of course, when the unions started hitting on government employees. Only the government can support the high cost of operating with unionized labor because they just waste the taxpayers money to do so.

If unions were good, they would not be at the end of a fifty year decline.

If unions were viable, entire industries that became dominated by unionized labor would not have been wiped out in the U.S.

If unions were better, everyone would want to be union and there would be unionized positions available...there are not.

It is just ridiculous to argue that an organization that provides no assets to business, but rather costs the business more to operate until that business can no longer operate, is a good thing.

[RoBoTeq]

Here's a baker's dozen of situations dealing with union violence that the blinded-by-extortion money union faithful here can dispute.

http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1604&id=78

http://www.nilrr.org/9903a.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock060903.asp

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-316es.html

http://www.npri.org/issues/issues04/i_b092004.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,70493,00.html

http://www.nrtw.org/foundation-action/fa_47.htm

http://www.abc.org/user-assets/Documents/Government%20Affairs/IssueBriefs/Jan2006/unionviolencehobbs106.pdf

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/10/15/biz_unions15.html

http://www.ncpa.org/pd/unions/pduni/pduni10.html

http://www.nrtw.org/b/nr_33.php

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,64095,00.html

http://www.nlpc.org/olap/UCU/01_07_09.htm

Just because union advocates deny union violence does not mean it is not a normal method of union operation tactics.

[geerair]

Originally posted by daytonafan
Geer, I'm a bit curious. You seem to be a very intelligent human being with rock solid confidence. For the most part, you seem to rise above the name calling and immaturity that exists on this site. I have even caught myself being so angry at what you say that I resort to stupidity.

However, it seems that everyone who disagrees with you is a "fundamentalist". Do you mean fundamentalist Christians? If so, please explain exactly what you mean by this term. Don't we all have fundamentalism at the root of our thoughts. I would think there is a "fundamental" basis for every opinion. Are you so positive that you are correct that you automatically discount any opinion that wavers from yours?

You seem to combat other's assertions and rebuttals by disecting their paragraphs word by word and inserting smartass responses. Your atheism doesn't offend me, I'm wondering if deism in any form offends you personally.

Just Curious, Daytona I would be more than happy to answer your questions but I believe it would be a major de-rail of the topic under discussion. Maybe you could open a new thread with this post or maybe the mods could move it to a new thread.

[hvacpope]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Ya know; union drones will never acknowledge all of the wrongs that unions are guilty of because they are basically paid to be loyal. The facts are that unions have decreased because they are not good for the country.

Unions need to have enough workers unionized to support their high paid bosses but not so many that the labor force cannot compete. The reason the percentage of unionized workers today is so low compared to a couple of decades ago is because the greedy unions went past the point that the market could support them.

That is, of course, when the unions started hitting on government employees. Only the government can support the high cost of operating with unionized labor because they just waste the taxpayers money to do so.

If unions were good, they would not be at the end of a fifty year decline.

If unions were viable, entire industries that became dominated by unionized labor would not have been wiped out in the U.S.

If unions were better, everyone would want to be union and there would be unionized positions available...there are not.

It is just ridiculous to argue that an organization that provides no assets to business, but rather costs the business more to operate until that business can no longer operate, is a good thing.

so far the best post of this entire threat, great post Robo, Im going to print this one out for the collection.

[smokin68]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Here's a baker's dozen of situations dealing with union violence that the blinded-by-extortion money union faithful here can dispute.

http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1604&id=78

http://www.nilrr.org/9903a.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock060903.asp

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-316es.html

http://www.npri.org/issues/issues04/i_b092004.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,70493,00.html

http://www.nrtw.org/foundation-action/fa_47.htm

http://www.abc.org/user-assets/Documents/Government%20Affairs/IssueBriefs/Jan2006/unionviolencehobbs106.pdf

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/10/15/biz_unions15.html

http://www.ncpa.org/pd/unions/pduni/pduni10.html

http://www.nrtw.org/b/nr_33.php

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,64095,00.html

http://www.nlpc.org/olap/UCU/01_07_09.htm

Just because union advocates deny union violence does not mean it is not a normal method of union operation tactics.





Spoken like a true anti-union salaried corporate mouthpiece.
There's not enough bandwidth to list the decietful actions of non-unionized corporations.

[daytonafan]

[http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/983/kerry40js.jpg [/B][/QUOTE]


You would think with union paid dental insurance ole boy could go get his choppers worked on

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by smokin68

Spoken like a true anti-union salaried corporate mouthpiece.
There's not enough bandwidth to list the decietful actions of non-unionized corporations.

[/B]

Typical union mentality. When they can no longer avoid the facts that the unions are what they are accused of, they try to change the subject and make claims that the other guys are worse. How pathetic.

I am not defending corporate abuse, I'm pointing out facts about unions. Lets try to stay focused here. I know that is difficult when faced with actual facts, but lets at least try.

Over 300 American workers have died directly due to union violence over the past 30 years.

We haven't even touched on how unions have held all U.S. citizens hostage by not allowing ships to be unloaded or trucks to deliver products. Then there are the illegal sick call ins that the unionized police and fire fighters have pulled over the years that unions have been sucking the life out of our organizations that are supposed to protect us.

[hvacpope]

Originally posted by smokin68

Spoken like a true anti-union salaried corporate mouthpiece.
There's not enough bandwidth to list the decietful actions of non-unionized corporations.

[/B]

Smokey your stupidity has no boundaries, you deserve the moronic dumbass price.

[RoBoTeq]

I like the corporate mouthpiece accusation. Being a 100% commisioned worker, I am as far from corporate as one can get without being unemployed.

[smokin68]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
I like the corporate mouthpiece accusation. Being a 100% commisioned worker, I am as far from corporate as one can get without being unemployed.

Do you have a CONTRACT with your company? I'll bet you do. This something only a union hourly employee will have.So you have the same situation as a UNION!!!


Hvacpope, I can't accept an award you've already won.

[daytonafan]

Originally posted by smokin68

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
I like the corporate mouthpiece accusation. Being a 100% commisioned worker, I am as far from corporate as one can get without being unemployed.

Do you have a CONTRACT with your company? I'll bet you do. This something only a union hourly employee will have.So you have the same situation as a UNION!!!


Hvacpope, I can't accept an award you've already won.

All of our installers are 100% commission. We have no contract. Just an awesome boss and the desire to make a good name for our company. Every winter we hire the layed off union sheet metal guys. They do great work and always show up on time. They always leave when they get called. I have met many decent people that way. Still keep in touch with most of them.

[smokin68]

[/B][/QUOTE]

All of our installers are 100% commission. We have no contract. Just an awesome boss and the desire to make a good name for our company. Every winter we hire the layed off union sheet metal guys. They do great work and always show up on time. They always leave when they get called. I have met many decent people that way. Still keep in touch with most of them. [/B][/QUOTE]


I agree. There are tons of workers with no contracts, but a union employee will have a contract. I don't understand your installers being on commission. Do they sell their own installs?

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by smokin68
I agree. There are tons of workers with no contracts, but a union employee will have a contract. I don't understand your installers being on commission. Do they sell their own installs?


Persons that others to speak for them would never understand self promotional oportunities. I do not have a contract other then having commited to certain non-disclosure and ethics agreements. Something else that a unionized worker would not comprehend.

[tinner73]

an ethics agreement with Goodman?? oxy-moron.

[daytonafan]

Originally posted by smokin68


All of our installers are 100% commission. We have no contract. Just an awesome boss and the desire to make a good name for our company. Every winter we hire the layed off union sheet metal guys. They do great work and always show up on time. They always leave when they get called. I have met many decent people that way. Still keep in touch with most of them. [/B][/QUOTE]


I agree. There are tons of workers with no contracts, but a union employee will have a contract. I don't understand your installers being on commission. Do they sell their own installs?
[/B][/QUOTE]

Well, my bad. I guess its not commission. They get paid (and very well I might add) per job, not by the hour. We have seen a tremendous increase in quality as well as volume. I was getting my terms confused. I was in the middle of a rum and coke. (My third)

[daytonafan]

Originally posted by tinner73
an ethics agreement with Goodman?? oxy-moron.

LOL!!! Score one for the union guy.

[Collin]

Originally posted by daytonafan
I was getting my terms confused. I was in the middle of a rum and coke. (My third)

Lightweight.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by daytonafan

Originally posted by tinner73
an ethics agreement with Goodman?? oxy-moron.

LOL!!! Score one for the union guy.

Actually, I would say this is true for any large business; union or not.