Lennox Dehumiditrol

[gsubrec]

The website claims that it is optimised to work with R410
heat pumps such as XP19.
Does it work with R410 Armstrong heatpumps like the Envirosure 1400

Is this cheaper than a stand alone dehumidifier ?

[totaleclipse]

The humiditrol will techniclly work with any A/C out there that is 410a. Now, with that said, lennox tech support will not be much help if you question its capacitys or anything like that, because they havent tested it on that unit, the just dont know. Lennox doesnt come up with there numbers in a computer, the get them from the test lab. Also, not just anyone can buy the thing. For right now lennox is only selling the things to dealers that have atleast one tech certified on the thing.

As for the cost, I havent seen any numbers on it to make an educated decision, but if you look at potential capacity of water removal, I cant see that it will be more than a stand alone. On LENNOX equipment, it will remove 600qts of water a day, the best stand alone that I know of is around 166-175 qts. a day, so you are looking at 3-4 stand alones for the price of one humiditrol.

[parkercie]

It should also be noted that the Lennox Humiditrol requires a variable speed blower. I'm sure it would work with a single speed blower, but have no way to know how much capacity would be lost. It stands to reason that the lower SEER rated equipment would also have more luck using this extra evaporator coil. The higher SEERS with variable speed will do most of the humidty control before the humiditrol is needed. I would think it would be an extreme situation before this product is needed. Another note....why must it be on a 410-a system? I asked that at a Lennox Humiditrol Certification class. The answer: Well, we only tested it on the 410-A systems. I see no reason why it wouldn't work on a 8 SEER, R22 system. Lennox just will not stand behind it. This unit is essentially a hot gas reheat system similiar to things found in commercial applications world wide. One other thing....If the moisture problem you are trying to combat is outside of the conditioned space (IE: Crawlspace, unfinished basement) a stand alone ductable dehumidifier such as the Santa Fe or Ultra Aire would be better suited. Many times by controlling the unconditioned space humidity, you remedy the conditioned spaces moisture issues.

[parkercie]

I guess I should add to my previous post. I'm not saying this is a bad product and I do think it will have some applications where it will be put to good use. I would imagine it would take 70 or more "Lowes" or "Home Depot" purchased dehumidifiers to achieve the capacity of one of these systems installed under the Lennox specs. This is a new product and we need to give Lennox time to expand on it. They need to do some testing with other manufacturer's equipment so that it may be used in applications that do not meet all of the Lennox criteria. I would also like to see testing done with single speed blowers just to see what kind of capacity drop results. If a single speed blower cuts the amount of water removal down from say 700 pints per day (I'm pulling this number out of the air) to maybe 200 pints per day....Just how much water do you need to remove? See my point? Some feedback from Teddybear on this would be greatly appreciated.

I didn't mean to sound down on the product, I just need to see a wider band of use for it.

[teddy bear]

As we search for better ways of providing ideal indoor comfort and air quality, competitive concepts are developed. On a hot day with a 70^F outdoor dew point with +12 hours of cooling load, typical homes are able to achive 50% RH with 75^F indoor temperatures. The a/c removes 80-120 lbs. of moisture/day. The moisture is from the occupants/activities, infiltrating fresh air, and diffusion on moisture through exterior materials of the home. The most of the moisture is removed during the warmest time of the day. Correspondingly, the indoor humidity is lowest during the day and highest during the evening. An optimized ton of a/c removes 3 lbs. of moisture per hour. Optimizing means low fan speed for max moisture removal. Three ton operating 12 hours remove +100 lbs. moisture per day.
During days of 6 hour of cooling loads, moisture removal is half or 50 lbs. of moisture removal. With 70^F outdoor dew points, the home will be more humid. A thermidistat overcooling the home 3^F, makes the a/c operate a little more but enough to make-up for a 50% reduction in load.

The next improvement is two speed a/c,VS fan. A three ton a/c operating at 1/2 speed removes half the moisture of a 3 ton. The only improvement is moisture removal is the elimination of the cool down time of the a/c coil before condensation on the coil starts. This is about 8 min. per cycle. Also consider most a/cs use a large 3 ton coil with half compressor capacity. Combining 2 speed with overcooling improves moisture removal somewhat. But as the cooling load decreases, the lower temperature limit is reached long before the indoor %RH is achieved.

Adding a new a/c with partial reheat as the Humitrol does dramatically improves humidity control during low cooling load conditions. Overcooling does occur with no cooling load and the system ceases to function rather over cool below 3^F. A/C with condenser reheat removes 2 lbs. of moisture per KW.

A high eff. whole house dehumidifier like Ultra-Aire/Santa Fe works with any a/c and provides positive humidity control for much less investment, a much simplier system, and at 5 lbs. of moisture removal per KW. Adding an whole house dehumidifier to a slightly over-sized a/c provides rapid cool down with ideal humidity control. A dehu also allows turning the a/c up or off during times of non-occupancy. This is a big money saver. All green grass climates have the challange of high moisture load with occasional low sensible cooling loads. A dehu resolves the issue. TB

[boyelectric]

TB, are you saying the Santa Fe with an oversized a/c is better in summer, or year-round? How come the Humiditrol system specs out so good on paper.. like 75gallons per day potential?

[The Doctor]

now the humiditrol is showing up in rtus. seen 3 or 4 on petco or petsmart. looks like a hgb with a blower relay, but I'll post about it next time I get on their roof. I do have 1 or 2 of those places where the dog barber is relentlessly saying it's stuffy. I don't doubt it for a second ... with the wet dogs, and the panting and whatnot..

[teddy bear]

TB, are you saying the Santa Fe with an oversized a/c is better in summer, or year-round? How come the Humiditrol system specs out so good on paper.. like 75 gallons per day potential?
The Santa Fe removes 12 gallons of water per day, while using 19 kwh. This is enough to maintain <50%RH in a 3,000 sqft. home with an outside dew point of 80^F and without any a/c operation. The Humiditrol over cools some while removing much more water than needed which causes short cycling. During constant operation, the pints/ per KW are less than 2 for the Humiditrol and 5 pints per KW for the Santa Fe. While short cycling the pints per KW are reduced for both units. Consider that the retained moisture on 13 SEER 3 ton a/c coil is 7-8 lbs. The dehumidistat of the Humiditrol will satisfy before any water gets to the drain. One lb. of water re-evaporating off the a/c coil raises the indoor %RH of a 1,000 sqft. space 8%. As the large a/c coil dries to the space, more dehumidification is reqired.
I am saying that the Santa Fe/Ultra-Aire dehus with a slightly oversized a/c is a much more practical system for providing home comfort at a reasonable investment. These are simple systems that any good tech can repair as oposed to special training and components. A Santa Fe canbe added to any a/c system.
For energy efficiency, with the Santa Fe, you can use t-stat temp setup when the house is unoccupied while maintaining <50%RH, yet good cool down at the end of temp setup. Also additional capacity for vistors and the hottest days.
I do agree that having some form partial reheat dehumidification is better than straight over-cooling like a thermidisatat. The market place will decide. We have added many dehus to the different complicated a/cs to provide real humidity control without over-cooling. Looking forward to adding a AF/UA to Humiditrol. TB

[boyelectric]

What would happen if the Humiditrol were coupled with an undersized coil, like a 1 ton, 16 SEER unit? The cycles would be longer and the unit is fundamentally more efficient...

Reason I ask: I just had a nice American Standard variable speed system installed, along with a/c (haven't even used the a/c yet, since I'm in Seattle), and I also have an Ultra-Aire DH90 unit that is separately installed. As per the manufacturer's specs, the two systems are totally separate, with their own returns, etc. It seems like the Ultra-Aire has difficulty keeping up with the dehumidification needs of a Seattle winter... The unit's compressor runs almost non-stop.

Granted, I AM targeting a lower humidity, at 40-45%, because of severe allergies to mold and dust-mites for one household member.

On a side note, the American Standard AccuClean filter is a miracle on earth.


Thanks for answering my newbie questions!

[teddy bear]

You are really up on all this. Dust mites are not viable @ 68^F, below 58%. Suggest 50% RH as minimum. Using small a/c coils on normal a/cs at low temp/%RH freeze in a few minutes and ineffective. Also warming your inside temperature 1^F lowers the inside %RH +2%RH. Raise the set point of your Ultra-Aire to 45-50%RH. Your current outdoot dew point 36^F. Fresh infiltrating air warmed to 68^F yields 38%RH indoors. With this low dew point, increasing your ventilation would be more effective at reducing indoor %RH, but don't do it. you will be more comfortable/heathy at 45-50%RH. Like to here as your outside dew points this spring/summer. TB